Another scenario that i havn't seen mentioned

[Smalleyjedi]

How would the Nr, with its vastly smaller fleets compare to the feds? After a few seconds of contemplation, they too would probobly be able to crush them. But what if, say, the fifth fleet after being repaiered from the yethevan conflict hits a wormhole, emerges in the middle of a fed fleet, and the startled fleets fire at each other. the smaller, underpowered fed fleet is mainly crushed, and survivors warp out. Both sides think the other is hostile. Now, with five task forces of 21 ships, this is a small fleet compared to most vs arguments. Lets look at my estimated fleet comp.

Each task force consists of
3 majestic cruisers (about 700 meters long by the esitmation of an RPG site set at that time, but more powerful than a vic)
5 Corona frigates (smaller but improved verion of neb-b)
6 Warrior gunships
5 Agave Pickets

This is nineteen. Each also has two larger ships, the first the command ship of the task force.

3 of them have a large carrier and an RSD (more powerful than an ISD, but smaller)
2 have a DSD (Smaller still, but more powerful than an ISD2) and a smaller carrier

One of the large carriers is the command ship. Would the superior size of the feds give them even a chance here, given possible superior tactics? How would they perform against more powerful trek species?

[CmdrWilkens]

The problem here is that the NR, assuming they have some means of resupplying themselves and possible repair facilities (though they could just conquer those) still has too many advantages. They are faster, tougher, more powerful, tactically smarter, strategically better built, and more effectively supported by ground troops and fighter craft. Basically the only thing the limitation in number of ships does is enforce a slow down on the part of the NR commander because he has to be more cautious but generally speaking it'd be hard for his ships to lose.

[SCVN 2812]

Starfleet could win in this case. Assuming the NR fleet does not find a way home, they are in the situation that the USS Voyager faced in the Delta Quadrant. They are in unexplored, potentially hostile territory and forced to deal with the problems of supply attrition. Keeping their fleet running drains resources and I think it would be a bit of a challenge to find a ready supply of "hyper matter" which supossedly powers these vessels, let alone a means to collect it gvien that they are exclusively military oriented vessels and not set up for exploration mission roles. Now, given that, it will be a while before they start hurting for supplies since they would most likely have been topped off as far as supplies go during their repairs.

With the right tactics Starfleet could defeat the New Republic force, but then again with the right tactics any force can defeat another, it's just a matter of discovering the tactics and implementing them, which is often easier said than done. This is always a given in ST vs SW battles, but fighters will be slaughtered. Even the weakest Starfleet vessels like the Miranda-class, still mounts beam weaponry in the hundred kiloton/second range and I know of few designs that do not possess at least some torpedo capability. A photon or quantum torpedo detonating in the midst or close to a group of fighters would result in atomized or heavily damaged fighters. For the sake of "benefit of the doubt" I will extend to Star Wars the curtessy of the Ep II incredible cross section's estimates on concussion missle strength placing them in the tens of megatons range in the hopes that perhaps at least once the same curtessy of "benefit of the doubt" might be extended to Star Trek in debates. The torpedo and missle armed fighters would be capable of doing significant damage to SF capital ships if even a few make it past the torpedo bombardment and close in defense phaser sweeps. However, these fighters are extremely fragile, only able to sustain a few dozen kilotons of damage at best before being destroyed (assumming TIE weaponry is improved over Ep II versions), still significantly less endurance than would allow them to survive even a brush with a phaser.

Capital ship combat is something else entirely. Best bet is to hug the 1 LS effective range for weapons moving at or below the speed of light and use this to maximize response time to avoid incomming turbolaser fire which, according to visual evidence, do move at slower than light speeds, while using sustained and concentrated phaser fire and photon/quantum torpedo spreads on as limited of area of shields as possible in order to maximize the damage done to an area of the shields and increase the odds of punching through them. If the shields go down, target weapons and other systems capable of being damaged on the surface of the hull. Engines are a recommended target as they are big, hard to miss and there is the possibility of reaction with their fuel which may lead to internal damage. Avoid close in engagements with New Republic ships at all costs unless moving at maximum POSSIBLE speed, not just maximum impulse and using evasive manuvers in order to minimize the chance of sustaining a hit from a turbolaser.

Note, if this is post Voyager's return, send in ships equipped with transphasic torpedos if any are availible. Their phasing nature makes them excellent ship killers, especially against the heavily armored NR capital ships which would help to hold in the internal detonation of a torpedo rather than allowing to expand outward as natural for an undirected detonation.

General long term campaign strategy: a war of attrition. Use small engagements to force NR ships to rapidly consume their limited supplies in pointless engagements and activities. Accept their surrender when they can no longer use their FTL drives due to their dependence on advanced infrastructure unavailible in this universe to provide their "hypermatter" reactant.

Regardless of whether or not transphasic torpedo or ablative hull armor projectors are availible expect severe Federation losses.

[master_yoda]

How would the Nr, with its vastly smaller fleets compare to the feds? After a few seconds of contemplation, they too would probobly be able to crush them. But what if, say, the fifth fleet after being repaiered from the yethevan conflict hits a wormhole, emerges in the middle of a fed fleet, and the startled fleets fire at each other. the smaller, underpowered fed fleet is mainly crushed, and survivors warp out. Both sides think the other is hostile. Now, with five task forces of 21 ships, this is a small fleet compared to most vs arguments. Lets look at my estimated fleet comp.

Each task force consists of
3 majestic cruisers (about 700 meters long by the esitmation of an RPG site set at that time, but more powerful than a vic)
5 Corona frigates (smaller but improved verion of neb-b)
6 Warrior gunships
5 Agave Pickets

This is nineteen. Each also has two larger ships, the first the command ship of the task force.

3 of them have a large carrier and an RSD (more powerful than an ISD, but smaller)
2 have a DSD (Smaller still, but more powerful than an ISD2) and a smaller carrier

One of the large carriers is the command ship. Would the superior size of the feds give them even a chance here, given possible superior tactics? How would they perform against more powerful trek species?

I would say NR wins.

[tharkûn]

So total the NR has 105 ships not counting fighters. It has no ability to resupply. Its goal is to conquer the feddies?

1 on 1.
Eventually the feddies will win. Even with thousands of ground troops per ship (which doesn't sound NRish to me) you just can't hold that much ground. Earth alone can conscript enough cannon fodder to overrun you at significant loss (think about Zhukov's tactics). Wave after wave after wave of You just don't have the troops to hold the territory. Normal occupying forces, like say Germany in WWII or the Soviets can normally get away with "low" totals of occupying forces because any serious revolt, even if successful, can be put down by reinforcements from your own population base.

To effectively commandeer a world of billions with even 1/100th of 1% of the population resisting requires troops ... lots of troops. With that number of sabeteurs you won't be able to operate industry. It's just too easy to screw things up with sabotage.

So the NR is going to be getting new ships and likely won't be able to keep the ships they have in the feild. Eventually the NR runs out of ammo and fuel and they grind to a halt. Sure they toast several feddie planets (only going to make the resistance stronger) and destroy numerous ships ... they just don't have the man power to consolidate their gains. On the feddie side once massive casualities occur (the NR bombarding planets) and the shock wears off, then you disperse your fleets have the nominal heads of government sue for peace and conduct hit and run. Leave enough resistors and saboteurs behind to stop the NR from building up and eventually attrition sets in (that or the NR dies of old age). Starships can't sit battle ready indefinately and eventually some lucky ass feddie hit and run is going to come through when the sheilds are down. Eventually enough idiots with phasers taking stupid shots will deplete what little manpower you have.

If the NR can ally with anyone (with a population base in the billions) they win. Just go in, trash the defenses and let your ally (like oh say the Ferengi) expend the man power to hold the place. Stripping the feddies of their fleets will invite a hostile power to invade. The promise of sharing some technology (as in way outdated stuff) should make the more mercenary elements of the ST universe work with you. Thus you can be resupplied, thus you don't have to bother depleting your ships to supply occupying forces to hold territory. Instead you can use your ships to eliminate chokepoints and take out feddie ship concentrations.

Really you have all the major advantages of the imps (speed, strength, no chokepoints) and lack only an industrial base and a population base. Bribing someone should give you access to the latter so you can hold/build the former.

[SCVN 2812]

That assumes that somebody in the NR fleet or anybody they ally with knows how to build a hypermatter harvester or hypermatter factory, although I suppose 1 in tens of thousands of personnel, somebody would have the knowledge but NR ships aren't colony ships, they aren't floating factories and it's debatable whether or not they can use existing infrastructure to work their way up to their level of required infrastructure before they run out of supplies.

[tharkûn]

Typically naval ships are sent out with sufficient fuel to *get home*. For instance if the JFK is setting out from San Diego en route to Australia she has at least sufficient fuel to get to Australia and possibly enough to get home. Powering the big guns might be an issue, but they you were equiped for a fight against near equal strength (wasn't the big battle in that series a 6:5 battle) ... not a lot of small feddie forces that can't take sustained volleys. Yes they might have planned on using a local supply base or tenders ... those are not sound tactics as the present wonderful targets for a weaker opponent to target. Given the scale of the Federation vs the New Republic its fairly safe to assume that the NR ships can criss cross the area multiple times before fuel is an issue.

In any event you can follow the time honored tradiation of making hanger queens. Strip down ships and use their parts/ordinance/fuel for the remaining ships. They might even be able to power their ships with anti-matter (or even fusion) ... energy is energy ... its just a matter of converting it to the right form for the application. You could power your car off ethanol if we ran out of gasoline, it might require extensive modification but if your energy source is gone you can retrofit to use a new energy supply ... if you have the industrial resources to do so.

In any event the NR still enjoys sufficient advantage early that an alliance with any major ST power will allow that power to conqueor most of the quadrant. Their allies need not know the ships are running low on gas, lie about your gas tank if need be.

[Executor]

How would the Nr, with its vastly smaller fleets compare to the feds? After a few seconds of contemplation, they too would probobly be able to crush them. But what if, say, the fifth fleet after being repaiered from the yethevan conflict hits a wormhole, emerges in the middle of a fed fleet, and the startled fleets fire at each other. the smaller, underpowered fed fleet is mainly crushed, and survivors warp out. Both sides think the other is hostile. Now, with five task forces of 21 ships, this is a small fleet compared to most vs arguments. Lets look at my estimated fleet comp.

Each task force consists of
3 majestic cruisers (about 700 meters long by the esitmation of an RPG site set at that time, but more powerful than a vic)
5 Corona frigates (smaller but improved verion of neb-b)
6 Warrior gunships
5 Agave Pickets

This is nineteen. Each also has two larger ships, the first the command ship of the task force.

3 of them have a large carrier and an RSD (more powerful than an ISD, but smaller)
2 have a DSD (Smaller still, but more powerful than an ISD2) and a smaller carrier

One of the large carriers is the command ship. Would the superior size of the feds give them even a chance here, given possible superior tactics? How would they perform against more powerful trek species?

Just one thing you have the 5th fleet a little underestimated here. Its made up of 5 battlegroups, each with 5 Task forces. Each task force has about 20 ships. So the 5th fleet has arouns 500 ships.

Lee

[Graeme Dice]

Resupply is unlikely to become an issue in the amount of time it would take to either conquer or ally with the Federation. This is due to the likelihood that NR ships would carry at least as many supplies as ISD's, and those have everything they need for five years in the field. Further, the NR is directly descended from the rebellion, and they have plenty of commanders who know how to survive with few materials in a hostile galaxy.

[Master of Ossus]

Once again, the capital ships of the NR are more powerful than those of ST by so much that such a contest would be unwinnable for the Federation. They would be completely unable to stand up to the firepower of SW ships. Their cruisers can't repel firepower at that magnitude! Since NR ships have the same (and, in a few cases, better) technology than the Empire's, the contest would again be decided before it began. However, a fleet that size does not carry enough soldiers to physically subjugate any planets (or, perhaps, a few at the most). Thus, while the Federation could not destroy the posted group of ships (and likely no power in the Alpha Quadrant could), the NR forces here would have no chance of conquering large amounts of territory within the Federation or anywhere else.

As an aside, the posted fleet is nowhere near as large as the NR Fifth Fleet (don't read the books, just take my word for it, NO ONE SHOULD BUY THE BLACK FLEET CRISIS SERIES).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

How would the Nr, with its vastly smaller fleets compare to the feds? After a few seconds of contemplation, they too would probobly be able to crush them. But what if, say, the fifth fleet after being repaiered from the yethevan conflict hits a wormhole, emerges in the middle of a fed fleet, and the startled fleets fire at each other. the smaller, underpowered fed fleet is mainly crushed, and survivors warp out. Both sides think the other is hostile. Now, with five task forces of 21 ships, this is a small fleet compared to most vs arguments. Lets look at my estimated fleet comp.

Each task force consists of
3 majestic cruisers (about 700 meters long by the esitmation of an RPG site set at that time, but more powerful than a vic)
5 Corona frigates (smaller but improved verion of neb-b)
6 Warrior gunships
5 Agave Pickets

This is nineteen. Each also has two larger ships, the first the command ship of the task force.

3 of them have a large carrier and an RSD (more powerful than an ISD, but smaller)
2 have a DSD (Smaller still, but more powerful than an ISD2) and a smaller carrier

One of the large carriers is the command ship. Would the superior size of the feds give them even a chance here, given possible superior tactics? How would they perform against more powerful trek species?

That's more like the 5th Battle Group of the 5th Fleet.

Here's the rub. An Imperial Force of similar size probably CAN force the (at least temporary) subjugation of the Federation, even IF completely isolated. A New Republic force will have a lot of trouble.

The problem is not really with the Firepower, it is the Attitude and the way the ships and doctrine are designed. Blowing up Starfleet ships as you see them without getting hurt is the Easy Part. Hell, one heavy ISD or RSD or DSD could probably do it.

The New Republic places a far greater emphasis on its starfighter forces than the Empire. That may cause them to use fighters exclusively in some engagements, and if there is one place in this entire mismatch where the two sides are relatively equal, it is in fighters. At least there, they probably aren't orders of magnitude different. Which means that the NR force will take casualties. Of course, Federation weapons don't really have a chance in hell of penetrating Imperial or NR capship defense while an Imperial or NR protorp equipped fighter that makes it through means at least a single Fed capship destroyed, but the issue with fighters is far less certain.

Now comes to design. Imperial heavy vessels have far longer endurances (up to six years) rather than NR ships (measured in months). Which means the Imperials have more infrastructure (they need it to last six years in space), so they get a logistics advantage. They have more personnel, and probably more highly trained personnel (the longer you plan to leave port, the more you need to take care of yourself). Even after the NR forces a subjugation, would they have the personnel to build up an infrastructure to feed themselves. While it is not certain, I'll say the Imperial Force is far more likely to be able to build up its support infrastructure time.

Finally, there's the Attitude. The Imperial Commander simply would go to greater lengths, and that gives him more options, more freedom. Of course, you can say his harsher methods would give more resistance, but that's later in the game.

The point of this little story, of course, is to point out some additional problems the NR would have over a simply Imperial force, which will have to be addressed.

Not to mention a NR and a Fed fleet would probably shake hands anyway...

[Smalleyjedi]

At the time of the black fleet crisis, the fifth fleet was the size of two battle groups, due to transfers from other fleets.

[Mr Bean]

As people point out before a Vic class Destroy and absorb alot of punishment if not as much as an ISD or higher

While 100 Defiants can wail on and ISD for over and hour a VIC has less shields and can take alot less, some supect roughly 40% as much or 20 or so mintes of pounding

Since a Majestic is more powerful, lets low-ball it and call it half as strong as an ISD or 30 mins of wailling by 100 ships mind you before it shields go down
And since any of its heaver guns can kill a Fedeartion ship in one hit, Or its medium guns in a few we have bacily a situation where the Feds HAVE to Swarm it, firiing everything they got and hope they can do more damage than the Majestic can deal back

Likely cass senarior if the Feds can get say 760 ships togther they could get, two maybe three of the Cruisers if they focused on them or just one cruiser the gunships and the Frigats

The problem lines agian the Feds would have to hit them with EVERYTHING
Ten-Twentys ships attacks would just get themselves killed and quickly too

[CmdrWilkens]

At the time of the black fleet crisis, the fifth fleet was the size of two battle groups, due to transfers from other fleets.

There is no Fifth Fleet, there is the Fifth Battlegroup of the New Republic Defense Fleet which was augumented with other units to bring its total strength to 10 taskforcesor the equivalnet of two battlegroups. I know its sort of a nitpick since we often refer to it as the Fifth Fleet but for the record I thought I'd toss that in.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

But they do explicitly mention a 5th Fleet in the early part of Before the Storm. Somewhere in the mess, the 5th Fleet morphed into the 5th Battlegroup, or so it seems. I would hope that the Senators can distinguish between a Fleet and a Battlegroup...

[Mr Bean]

I would hope that the Senators can distinguish between a Fleet and a Battlegroup

Of course they know Heck its easy, Ones somthing to use to defend the others one you kinda you know send of to War
*What?
Why are you all looking at me like that of course I know but they don't know that or what the diffrance is

[Master of Ossus]

I completely agree with most of the difficulties that other people are bringing up. A NR fleet simply would not have the necessary number of troops to subjugate more than a handful of planets, although I don't believe that anything in the Federation or the Alpha Quadrant short of Q would be able to defeat such a force.

[CmdrWilkens]

But they do explicitly mention a 5th Fleet in the early part of Before the Storm. Somewhere in the mess, the 5th Fleet morphed into the 5th Battlegroup, or so it seems. I would hope that the Senators can distinguish between a Fleet and a Battlegroup...

Actually BTS is what I would be quoting. pg7 softcover:

"In the pristine silence of space, the Fifth Battle Group of the New Republic Defense Fleet..."

In fact it is the very first sentence of the very first chapter (excluding the Prolouge).

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

But they do explicitly mention a 5th Fleet in the early part of Before the Storm. Somewhere in the mess, the 5th Fleet morphed into the 5th Battlegroup, or so it seems. I would hope that the Senators can distinguish between a Fleet and a Battlegroup...

Actually BTS is what I would be quoting. pg7 softcover:

"In the pristine silence of space, the Fifth Battle Group of the New Republic Defense Fleet..."

In fact it is the very first sentence of the very first chapter (excluding the Prolouge).

Oh yeah, there's that. I would think then that the 5th Fleet was built to the promises of Ackbar, and Abaht is the 5th fleet commander, but only the 5th (Reinforced) Battle Group played a big part in the story.

[Smalleyjedi]

thanks....that makes more sence