Canon Database goes over 1000 entries!

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-14 04:29pm

The problem with replicators and elemental transmutation is the fact that there are so many things which we know they can't replicate, some of which are structurally quite simple such as the Gamma Quadrant gemstones that Quark was slavering over in numerous DS9 episodes. If they cannot do elemental transmutation, you have a very neat and clean explanation as to why they can't just replicate anything they please. Otherwise, it gets messy; why wouldn't they be able to replicate something as simple as a crystal if they can manipulate matter on the subatomic level?

It can't just be cost, because there have been incidents (eg- delivery of a vaccine) where cost was really not an issue.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-10-15 01:09am

Darth Wong wrote:
Jon wrote:
Enola Straight wrote:In the Canon database there is mention of "Gold" still being thought of as a valuable commodity, used as payment...refuting the "Replicators can make anything" belief.

Couldn't "Gold" just be short for "gold press latinum"?
Very likely, I would agree. There are many ways to 'refer' to precious materials now, no reason why 'Gold Pressed Latinum' wouldn't be contracted to 'Gold' if it was obvious to everyone that gold was worthless anyway, so they can only be referring to latinum when using it to describe value.
Except for the small detail that they always contract it to "latinum", which is presumably much MORE valuable per unit mass than gold. This doesn't mean gold is actually worthless.

Gold HAS to have some value since Quark was willing to bargain for it with the United States government in the epsiode "Little Green Men" knowing that they wouldn't be talking about Latinum.

Post by **Gandalf** » 2004-10-15 01:35am

The Kernel wrote:Gold HAS to have some value since Quark was willing to bargain for it with the United States government in the epsiode "Little Green Men" knowing that they wouldn't be talking about Latinum.

Perhaps Quark accepted gold because he knew it was the best he could get in that situation?

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-10-15 02:01am

Gandalf wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Gold HAS to have some value since Quark was willing to bargain for it with the United States government in the epsiode "Little Green Men" knowing that they wouldn't be talking about Latinum.
Perhaps Quark accepted gold because he knew it was the best he could get in that situation?

Authentic old-Earth gold from a human mint would likely have a trade value well in excess of simple material value, I'd think.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-10-15 02:23am

Gandalf wrote:
The Kernel wrote:Gold HAS to have some value since Quark was willing to bargain for it with the United States government in the epsiode "Little Green Men" knowing that they wouldn't be talking about Latinum.
Perhaps Quark accepted gold because he knew it was the best he could get in that situation?

Let's have a look at the line:

QUARK: Dollars? Never heard of them. Don't you have any gemstones or precious minerals?

GENERAL: You mean like gold?

QUARK [looking very interested]: Gold is good.

He didn't even press the matter further, he simply accepted gold. If it was something easy to replicate, he wouldn't have been so interested in it.

The Kernel · Post by **The Kernel** » 2004-10-15 02:24am

Petrosjko wrote: Authentic old-Earth gold from a human mint would likely have a trade value well in excess of simple material value, I'd think.

Considering that Quark had no intention of returning to the future, it scarcely matters.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-15 02:32am

The Kernel wrote:
Petrosjko wrote:Authentic old-Earth gold from a human mint would likely have a trade value well in excess of simple material value, I'd think.
Considering that Quark had no intention of returning to the future, it scarcely matters.

Not to mention the fact that he hasn't even seen this gold yet so he doesn't know whether it has any distinctive markings, and he has no witnesses to verify its authenticity (his brother and nephew certainly wouldn't be considered reliable witnesses). Besides, the point about vaccines and other organic unreplicatable items remains: how can they be capable of accurate manipulation at the subatomic level when they are limited in what they can do at the molecular level?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-15 10:35am

The Kernel wrote:
Perhaps Quark accepted gold because he knew it was the best he could get in that situation?

Let's have a look at the line:

QUARK: Dollars? Never heard of them. Don't you have any gemstones or precious minerals?

GENERAL: You mean like gold?

QUARK [looking very interested]: Gold is good.

He didn't even press the matter further, he simply accepted gold. If it was something easy to replicate, he wouldn't have been so interested in it.[/quote]

Quark wasn't very knowledgable regarding earth history. It's entirely possible he thought they were referring to gold pressed latinum rather than simple gold itself, and didn't realize that humans were using regular ordinary gold. Which explains why he got excited in that episode, but in other episodes he remarks to how regular gold is practically worthless.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-15 10:35am

edit: bah, flubbed my quote tags. if a mod could fix that it'd be appreciated.

Crazedwraith · Post by **Crazedwraith** » 2004-10-15 02:04pm

In "Who Mourns for Morn?" Quark is devestated to find these bars are "only gold, worthless gold"

So whats more canon early DS9 or later DS9?

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-15 02:21pm

Crazedwraith wrote:In "Who Mourns for Morn?" Quark is devestated to find these bars are "only gold, worthless gold"

So whats more canon early DS9 or later DS9?

Neither, so you rationalize it. Obviously, gold is far less valuable per unit mass than latinum, so if he was expecting them to be full of latinum, he would be horribly disappointed to discover that they were just gold. That doesn't mean gold is actually worthless, since he was perfectly willing to trade for it before; it just means that it was a big disappointment to him.

Petrosjko · Post by **Petrosjko** » 2004-10-15 04:34pm

I've never actually seen the episode in question, so I was lacking context.

Point conceded.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-15 04:43pm

Darth Wong wrote: Neither, so you rationalize it. Obviously, gold is far less valuable per unit mass than latinum, so if he was expecting them to be full of latinum, he would be horribly disappointed to discover that they were just gold. That doesn't mean gold is actually worthless, since he was perfectly willing to trade for it before; it just means that it was a big disappointment to him.

i seem to remember him making some remark about gold in the same episode (or another one) saying how some primitive civilizations still placed value on it. That'd support my theory of quark simply not being knowledgable enough in earth's history to realize that they were referring to regular gold and not gold pressed latinum.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-15 04:56pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Neither, so you rationalize it. Obviously, gold is far less valuable per unit mass than latinum, so if he was expecting them to be full of latinum, he would be horribly disappointed to discover that they were just gold. That doesn't mean gold is actually worthless, since he was perfectly willing to trade for it before; it just means that it was a big disappointment to him.
i seem to remember him making some remark about gold in the same episode (or another one) saying how some primitive civilizations still placed value on it. That'd support my theory of quark simply not being knowledgable enough in earth's history to realize that they were referring to regular gold and not gold pressed latinum.

Oh for fuck's sake, this is stupid. If I want gold in a steel lockbox, I'll refer to it as gold, not steel. If the valuable component is latinum and it's just encased in "worthless" gold, why the fuck would they refer to it as gold?

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-15 05:06pm

Darth Wong wrote: Oh for fuck's sake, this is stupid. If I want gold in a steel lockbox, I'll refer to it as gold, not steel. If the valuable component is latinum and it's just encased in "worthless" gold, why the fuck would they refer to it as gold?

there's all kinds of different name for the dollar bill in the states. a buck, greenbacks, dollars, etc. i don't see why they wouldn't have different names for the same type of currency in trek. It could be that 'gold' is simply another term for gold pressed latinum, like latinum's the shortened version of it, except the more commonly used term.

Post by **Darth Wong** » 2004-10-15 11:44pm

Darth_Zod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote:Oh for fuck's sake, this is stupid. If I want gold in a steel lockbox, I'll refer to it as gold, not steel. If the valuable component is latinum and it's just encased in "worthless" gold, why the fuck would they refer to it as gold?
there's all kinds of different name for the dollar bill in the states. a buck, greenbacks, dollars, etc.

Totally irrelevant. There's different slang names for my dick too, but I don't go around pretending that has something to do with the question of whether you refer to a precious material by its name or by the name of its container.

i don't see why they wouldn't have different names for the same type of currency in trek. It could be that 'gold' is simply another term for gold pressed latinum, like latinum's the shortened version of it, except the more commonly used term.

See above.

Stark · Post by **Stark** » 2004-10-16 09:20pm

I've never heard a ST character use terms other than 'gold pressed latinum' or simply 'latinum' to describe it. If I wanted dirt pressed hotdogs, and someone offered me dirt, I wouldn't assume that worthless dirt automatically comes with yummy hotdogs.

Mange · Post by **Mange** » 2004-10-18 04:00am

Mike, the Canon Database is, IMO, one of the best features on your site. I may not agree entirely with you in politics and some other things, but only a fool wouldn't recognize this important contribution (and your others) to the SW Vs ST debate.
Are you considering starting a separate Database for EU entries later? It's quite unnecessary to keep two extensive projects running at the same time, but people could contribute to it and if you could find the time perhaps you could make some corrections and comments? I thought that this was perhaps a good idea since some of Darkstar's followers and others uses the EU (quotes etc.) in the debate. I'm not especially interested in the EU myself, but since it after all is part of the overall continuity (as expressed by Mr. Chee in answer to my direct question over at the Official Forums) and I don't think it should be excluded (of course, you make many references to it on your site).

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2004-10-20 08:28pm

Analysis of 'Mosaic' pg 300 wrote:Apparently, it takes 800 watts from the "capacitors" to create a transporter beam capable of simultaneously transporting two people. This seems rather odd in light of the TNG episode "The Outcast", in which a mere 10 megajoules is said to be enough for a multi-person transport.

I think you left of a 'mega' on that 800 watts bit.

dragon · Post by **dragon** » 2004-10-22 10:27am

Darth_Zod wrote:
Darth Wong wrote: Neither, so you rationalize it. Obviously, gold is far less valuable per unit mass than latinum, so if he was expecting them to be full of latinum, he would be horribly disappointed to discover that they were just gold. That doesn't mean gold is actually worthless, since he was perfectly willing to trade for it before; it just means that it was a big disappointment to him.
i seem to remember him making some remark about gold in the same episode (or another one) saying how some primitive civilizations still placed value on it. That'd support my theory of quark simply not being knowledgable enough in earth's history to realize that they were referring to regular gold and not gold pressed latinum.

If I rember right there was a TNG episode where the Ferengi took the communicator badge off of one of the crew members and made a comment about the gold.