Can the Empire build a Sovereign ?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-22 11:04am

Lord Poe wrote:Then he'll offer money to a Harry Mudd type or Ferengi for a ride. So what?

True, but what if he wanted something personal -- what if the Hutt found actual schematics of a Sovereign and actually wanted to recreate it out of a fancy?

Hey, if 8472 want to go about it the stupid way, let them. All the Empire has to do is capture one starship and download the sum total of all human knowledge from the databanks. Or offer a Ferengi money.

Again true. But you would need to be in Federation territory to get certain knowledge -- for example, you would need to walk around Earth to get a visual first-hand account of how tactically sound the terrain was, and so on. I know, not the most important considerations for a power whose warships can slag a planet in half an hour -- but you would want "Deep-Cover" operatives in the Federation, for intelligence gathering purposes. These undercover operatives would have to be able to interact flawlessly into Federation/Starfleet, so a training base would make sense. That was what 8472 was doing. I'm not very familiar with the EU, but I remember people talking about a deep cover Vong network before their invasion.

That being said, it would still be easier to steal a Sovereign than to make it.

Idiot, Delenn did that because she was told to by the Vorlons. Try watching the source you are using.

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Hard to do when you get only 28 channels -- I worked from memory with that one. But the point stands -- even if you have superior forces, you do not ignore intelligence because you believe that your enemy is no match for you. Downloading all the information from a LCARS database is one thing -- having operatives on the ground gathering real-time intelligence is another, and they would have to be able to interact with Federation citizens and operate Federation technologies, hence a training platform such as a stolen Federation ship. I know, doesn't have to be a Sovereign.

Brian

Enforcer Talen · Post by **Enforcer Talen** » 2004-10-22 11:07am

I am wondering how much the schematics would help. we have trouble these days building ships and armor from 2,000 yrs ago, god only knows how the empire would handle 25,000 yrs of regression.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-22 11:10am

Again true. But you would need to be in Federation territory to get certain knowledge -- for example, you would need to walk around Earth to get a visual first-hand account of how tactically sound the terrain was, and so on. I know, not the most important considerations for a power whose warships can slag a planet in half an hour -- but you would want "Deep-Cover" operatives in the Federation, for intelligence gathering purposes. These undercover operatives would have to be able to interact flawlessly into Federation/Starfleet, so a training base would make sense. That was what 8472 was doing. I'm not very familiar with the EU, but I remember people talking about a deep cover Vong network before their invasion

understanding tactics is irrelevant to whether or not someone can duplicate the technology.

Hard to do when you get only 28 channels -- I worked from memory with that one. But the point stands -- even if you have superior forces, you do not ignore intelligence because you believe that your enemy is no match for you. Downloading all the information from a LCARS database is one thing -- having operatives on the ground gathering real-time intelligence is another, and they would have to be able to interact with Federation citizens and operate Federation technologies, hence a training platform such as a stolen Federation ship. I know, doesn't have to be a Sovereign.

you'd only need to run simulations or interact with the individuals if you wanted to understand tactics. Understanding the technology merely requires the technical schematics and charts. Using your logic someone could argue that you'd have to study internet culture and history in order to learn how to build a computer, which clearly isn't necessary.

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-22 11:13am

Enforcer Talen wrote:I am wondering how much the schematics would help. we have trouble these days building ships and armor from 2,000 yrs ago, god only knows how the empire would handle 25,000 yrs of regression.

in the vast majority of cases where scientists are trying to duplicate technological feats, they're usually working without any type of schematics, and typically reverse-engineering the thing. One example i can think of is people that were attempting to duplicate the process that allowed the wright brothers to build their airplane. due to the fact that the vast majority of notes regarding it were destroyed or non existent, they were working from scratch attempting to figure out how it was built. Schematics make things infinitely easier.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-22 01:31pm

Darth_Zod wrote:understanding tactics is irrelevant to whether or not someone can duplicate the technology.

True. I guess I wasn't clear enough with my point -- I was discussing WHY someone would want to duplicate the technology, the purposes behind duplicating the technology, and so on. My points was in response to Lord Poe's assertion that there would be no reason to make/steal a Sovereign, not as a comment on whether or not the technology could be duplicated (which in earlier posts I have said the Empire could easily do depending on the level of emulation they needed).

you'd only need to run simulations or interact with the individuals if you wanted to understand tactics. Understanding the technology merely requires the technical schematics and charts. Using your logic someone could argue that you'd have to study internet culture and history in order to learn how to build a computer, which clearly isn't necessary.

Again, no disagreement from me. But my points were about WHY someone would want to build a Sovereign, and were in direct response to Lord Poe's comment that there would be no reason to build/steal a Sovereign. You can understand how a computer works without reseraching internet culture and history, but actual use of the computer would be severly limited if all operatives had were technical manuals and no hands-on implementation. For example, you could read all the technical charts and schematics you want -- however, in order to prepare operatives for deep cover operations in the Federation, they would need to become familiar with duplicated/stolen Federation technology and more importantly culture, which is the only rational reason I can think of why someone would want to build an inferior vessel al la Species 8472 with the Federation.

Brian

ANGELUS · Post by **ANGELUS** » 2004-10-22 02:22pm

Lord Poe wrote:Why would the Empire waste its time building a Trojan Horse

The thread is not about "why would they want to build one?" but "can they build one?"

We are not analyzing the cause but the capability to do it.

It's like if somebody asked me if I can do 10,000 pushups. The question is not why would I want to do it, but if I can do it.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-22 03:04pm

ANGELUS wrote: The thread is not about "why would they want to build one?" but "can they build one?"

We are not analyzing the cause but the capability to do it.

It's like if somebody asked me if I can do 10,000 pushups. The question is not why would I want to do it, but if I can do it.

"Can they build a Sovereign" is linked directly to "Why would they want to build a Sovereign" because the level of emulation would directly be linked to why they wanted to build a Sovereign. If they wanted "Shock" Sovereigns, ships that only looked like a Sovereign, then sure. If they wanted a Light-Esponiage Sovereign, to pass fast scans/long range scans, then sure. If they wanted a "Deep Esponiage" Sovereign to train operative to spy on Federation society, then maybe, but they would need more than just technical information.

Brian

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-22 03:07pm

brianeyci wrote:
ANGELUS wrote: The thread is not about "why would they want to build one?" but "can they build one?"

We are not analyzing the cause but the capability to do it.

It's like if somebody asked me if I can do 10,000 pushups. The question is not why would I want to do it, but if I can do it.
"Can they build a Sovereign" is linked directly to "Why would they want to build a Sovereign" because the level of emulation would directly be linked to why they wanted to build a Sovereign. If they wanted "Shock" Sovereigns, ships that only looked like a Sovereign, then sure. If they wanted a Light-Esponiage Sovereign, to pass fast scans/long range scans, then sure. If they wanted a "Deep Esponiage" Sovereign to train operative to spy on Federation society, then maybe, but they would need more than just technical information.

Brian

no, it isn't. creating a scenario where the empire is actually attempting to build one already automatically assumes they want to do so for whatever reason. the reason itself is completely irrelevant. you don't need to know any info beyond the relevant technical data in order to duplicate something if it's already within your technological capability to do so.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-22 03:08pm

Darth_Zod wrote:no, it isn't. creating a scenario where the empire is actually attempting to build one already automatically assumes they want to do so for whatever reason. the reason itself is completely irrelevant. you don't need to know any info beyond the relevant technical data in order to duplicate something if it's already within your technological capability to do so.

We need to know the level of emulation the Empire wants for the Sovereign to know whether they could build it. Hence, we need to know why the Empire would want to build the Sovereign.

Brian

General Zod · Post by **General Zod** » 2004-10-22 03:11pm

brianeyci wrote:
Darth_Zod wrote:no, it isn't. creating a scenario where the empire is actually attempting to build one already automatically assumes they want to do so for whatever reason. the reason itself is completely irrelevant. you don't need to know any info beyond the relevant technical data in order to duplicate something if it's already within your technological capability to do so.
We need to know the level of emulation the Empire wants for the Sovereign to know whether they could build it. Hence, we need to know why the Empire would want to build the Sovereign.

Brian

*sighs* are you purposefully being dense? assuming the empire wants to build a sovereign means they'll be wanting to build the entire fucking thing as its presented in trek. the reasons why are still irrelevant.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-22 03:14pm

Darth_Zod wrote:*sighs* are you purposefully being dense? assuming the empire wants to build a sovereign means they'll be wanting to build the entire fucking thing as its presented in trek. the reasons why are still irrelevant.

Well okay. My comment about emulation was based on other people saying you could simply substitute certain technology for Trek technology and get away with it.

If the Empire wanted to build "the entire fucking thing as its presented in trek" they would need to do more than watch a few episodes of Trek. They would need schematics, or at least a captured copy of a Sovereign to make every minute fine detail accurate.

Brian

Durandal · Post by **Durandal** » 2004-10-22 04:49pm

brianeyci wrote:Yes quite a long time ago though. I am talking about the scene when Qui-Gon and Obi-Wan was cutting through the blast doors. Compare this to when Obi-Wan stood helplessly while the forcefield was up. The forcefield stopped Obi-Wan and not the door (the Droid Destroyers eventually chased them away, I still don't understand that).

False cause. The force field did not "stop" them. The fact that they only had melee weapons and were being continuously shot at with heavy blasters from about 10 meters away stopped them. The force fields on the droidekas served to deflect the bolts that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon sent back their way with their lightsabers. If a police officer is firing from 10 meters away at someone who only possesses a knife, are you going to claim that the officer's kevlar vest kept the guy pinned down?

I honestly can't believe you're making such a huge deal out of force fields. Does it really seem reasonable to you to seal off sections of a ship with a force field that demands constant power drain rather than a heavy steel door that drops into place, especially in situations where pressure has been lost?

ANGELUS · Post by **ANGELUS** » 2004-10-22 05:36pm

brianeyci wrote:"Can they build a Sovereign" is linked directly to "Why would they want to build a Sovereign" because the level of emulation would directly be linked to why they wanted to build a Sovereign. If they wanted "Shock" Sovereigns, ships that only looked like a Sovereign, then sure. If they wanted a Light-Esponiage Sovereign, to pass fast scans/long range scans, then sure. If they wanted a "Deep Esponiage" Sovereign to train operative to spy on Federation society, then maybe, but they would need more than just technical information.

No, it is not. The question was "Can they?". What they want it for is completely irrelevant. Maybe they wan to use it as an deep space brothel, we don't know that and we don't care. We just wan't to know if they can do it.

brianeyci wrote:"f the Empire wanted to build "the entire fucking thing as its presented in trek" they would need to do more than watch a few episodes of Trek. They would need schematics, or at least a captured copy of a Sovereign to make every minute fine detail accurate.

Yes, and what we want to know is if they can build a copy, not their reason to do it.

Slartibartfast · Post by **Slartibartfast** » 2004-10-22 06:28pm

Didn't the "lasers" from The Cage exhibit exactly the same phasing and disintegration abilities as normal TOS phasers?

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2004-10-23 01:37am

Durandal wrote: False cause. The force field did not "stop" them. The fact that they only had melee weapons and were being continuously shot at with heavy blasters from about 10 meters away stopped them. The force fields on the droidekas served to deflect the bolts that Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon sent back their way with their lightsabers. If a police officer is firing from 10 meters away at someone who only possesses a knife, are you going to claim that the officer's kevlar vest kept the guy pinned down?

I honestly can't believe you're making such a huge deal out of force fields. Does it really seem reasonable to you to seal off sections of a ship with a force field that demands constant power drain rather than a heavy steel door that drops into place, especially in situations where pressure has been lost?

I was talking about the duel scene between Obi-Wan Qui-Gon and Darth Maul, when Obi-Wan was trapped behind the forcefield. The blast door example was with the scene with the Droidekas -- my previous posts made this clear. Two different scenes.

No it doesn't make sense, and that's why I conceded the point to whomever I was posting to that blast doors make sense. I was not "making a big deal", I was trying to explore why the forcefield in the reactor room in TPM wasn't more widely deployed on SW ships, and I was satisfied with the responses.

Brian