ok, just for sheer giggles

[Enforcer Talen]

Do Klingon ships have arial shafts? Because if they do, I see those small Ewoks taking full advantage of that (can we say "Alien"? )

that has to be the funniest mental image ever.

token black guy is in the aerial shaft, with a flamethrower, waiting.

"hes right on you!"
"where?"
"grrrrrrowl"

token black guy turns and sees a split second of fur and fangs before being devoured

[Lord Pounder]

Once again you display ignorance of Klingon tatics. There is no mass charge, Klingons think only of themselves and their own honour in battle.

Look, idiot. Reread my post. I already explicitly stated that the Klingons would NOT use wise tactics. So do not say that I was stating they would.


As for the swordbreakers example, yes, things were different IRL on Earth. My whole point was that the basic idea of trapping the enemy's weapon and breaking it was not a bad one, which is what seemed to be the argument.

As for smallness of weapons, well, have you ever heard of a time-hit? In the highest level of Tai Chi, there are no parries. Instead, when someone punches or kicks at you, you attack their limb, disabling it, with the pleasant side effect that you are not hit. This would be the equivalent with weapons.

Especially considering the geometry of a Bat'leth, it looks like trapping a long pointy stick would be comparatively easy just by twisting.

Once again, retard, instead of coming upwith all these great ideas that the Klingons could do WATCH THE FUCKING SHOW AND GET OF EVIDENCE OF WHAT THE KLINGONS ACTUALLY FUCKING DO IN BATTLE. Have we ever seen Klingons ever display anything like Tai Chi? No, so your idea is out the window with what intelligence you had left. When ST has shown klingons on battle have we ever seen them parry? No we've seen them swing the Bat'leth like a sword or lock it u p with the opponents Bat'leth and try and make the other guy off balance. Why the Klingon is trying to lock and block the Ewoks spear 2 of the ewoks mates have turned the Klingon into meat on a stick.

[Keevan_Colton]

As for the swordbreakers example, yes, things were different IRL on Earth. My whole point was that the basic idea of trapping the enemy's weapon and breaking it was not a bad one, which is what seemed to be the argument.

Translation: I know it's nonsense, but...er, it sounds cool...

As for smallness of weapons, well, have you ever heard of a time-hit? In the highest level of Tai Chi, there are no parries. Instead, when someone punches or kicks at you, you attack their limb, disabling it, with the pleasant side effect that you are not hit. This would be the equivalent with weapons.

Translation: There was this cool thing I saw about some martial art and it was like great...and that's what this is like!

Do you know anything at all about melee combat?
The Klingons are about as skilled at melee as your average mongoose is at quantum physics.
Timing an attack well to disable a strike requires great skill, great balls and does not work half as well against thrusting attacks as it does against more angular blows.

Especially considering the geometry of a Bat'leth, it looks like trapping a long pointy stick would be comparatively easy just by twisting.

Translation: It's all jaggy and that has to be good for something!

It isnt.

[drachefly]

Translation: keevan likes to assume shit about people.

All this stuff I've been throwing around was taught to me by my Tai Chi instructor, not pulled out of Jackie Chan in the 25th Century or some shit like that. As for the skill level -- the advanced student in the class could do these things, and he had been at it for, oh, three and a half years?


Now, to make it abundantly clear:

The whole reason of my defending my points there was not that Klingons would actually do that, since abundant evidence has been provided that they would not. I was defending the idea that in principal such techniques even basically make sense, since that is the level at which I was attacked and continue to be attacked.

If you had even bothered to read my posts completely, you would see that I have conceded that Klingons are so incompetent at real fighting (at least they are nowadays) that these advanced techniques are beyond them. However, the fact that such techniques exist and are useful has not changed.

This is just like when I said "you seem to be... assuming the Klingons would split up and charge the groups individually. Well, that last one is a pretty good assumption." and then someone accused me of assuming that the Klingons would use sane group tactics.

READ, PEOPLE. Just because there are some things we disagree on does not mean that I disagree with every single assertion in your mind.

[Lord Pounder]

I never seen a Consession Accepted post that was so whiney before.

[Keevan_Colton]

Right drach, lets make a few things very clear:

1. You are pulling half your shit from your ass, it's something you seem very adept at doing.

2. No one is doubting a properly armed force with sense would kick fuck into the ewoks hand to hand in equal numbers. The legions for example with their nice solid unit structure and superior weapons would do the job...the legion made heavy use of the gladius which allowed 3 legionaries on average to face against one attacking swordsman due to the difference in areas required to use the weapons.

3. Hand to hand techniques cannot be translated perfectly into armed techniques, the presence of weapons complicates things endlessly.

4. While it is possible for someone to counter attack to the limbs (and it is one of the techniques I have been well trained in.) it takes skill and timing and guts to do it. It can give you a massive advantage if done well, but one fuck up and the laws of physics, particularly the part dealing with motion and momentum will come calling...

5. Klingons posess neither the intelligence or skill to use such techniques, and as you admit this, every single thing you've said has been a complete red herring. Concession Accepted

Kindly now fuck off and grow a brain..

[drachefly]

Keevan, like, chill. Congratulations. Your side won. Let's have a party!

[drachefly]

It occurred to me -- when Gul Dukat went on that Klingon-killing rampage, was he being mystically empowered by the Pah Wraiths?

[Lord Pounder]

It occurred to me -- when Gul Dukat went on that Klingon-killing rampage, was he being mystically empowered by the Pah Wraiths?

No this was years before.

[drachefly]

Got it. Dayumn, that was lame of them.

BTW, for the record, it is you I am conceding this argument to.

[Lancer]

Do Klingon ships have arial shafts? Because if they do, I see those small Ewoks taking full advantage of that (can we say "Alien"? )

Tribbles fuck Klingons up, what are bigger fuzzier things with spears gonna do to 'em?

you get tribbles loose on a planet, and nothing short of poisioning the geographical area the tribbles are on is gonna stop em.

Heh, imagine if you let tribbles loose on Naboo, or some other suitably fertile world.

[Robert Walper]

Do Klingon ships have arial shafts? Because if they do, I see those small Ewoks taking full advantage of that (can we say "Alien"? )

Tribbles fuck Klingons up, what are bigger fuzzier things with spears gonna do to 'em?

you get tribbles loose on a planet, and nothing short of poisioning the geographical area the tribbles are on is gonna stop em.

Heh, imagine if you let tribbles loose on Naboo, or some other suitably fertile world.

According to Worf, the Klingon Empire exterminated the Tribble race after the TOS incident. Undoubtably much to their disgust, the time travel trip by the Defiant to the Tribble episode brought back the Tribble race.

[brianeyci]

This is kind of off topic, but I would like to address the Klingons hand-to-hand phenomenon. Are the Klingons really as focused on hand-to-hand as we would like to believe?

About the Bat'leth Dukat versus Klingons scene... Dukat managed to knock out Klingons with the Bat'leth, and if memory serves the Klingons ended up piling up in a body heap in front of Dukat.

So, the scene doesn't really mean that Bat'leths are useless. Bat'leths are useful if used by someone with good physical conditioning. Unless Dukat learned how to use a Bat'leth in a holodeck, he would have had no experience with the weapon and it would have been little better than swinging a metal pole at someone. I don't know how hard it is to knock out someone with a metal pole, maybe someone with martial arts experience can elaborate, but to me it would be pretty difficult unless you hit the right spot and were strong enough (I'm a 130 pound weakling and certainly can't knock a guy out with a metal pole).

Also, the scene may have another conclusion. People scoff at the Klingon's reliance on hand-to-hand weapons and at how they throw away their disruptors for Bat'leths at the first chance they get. But, their lackluster performance with the Bat'leth here by Occam's Razor means that these particular Klingons were not very well trained with the Bat'leth. Dukat was fighting Klingons with a Bat'leth supposedly with no prior knowledge, and winning. Therefore, the Klingons had just as much training or less as Dukat, meaning practically no training and were defeated by Dukat's superior physical conditioning and knowledge of how to knock a Klingon out with a single blow. I believe Garek was also part of the Cardassian Obsidian Order, or had links to it, and would have been trained in hand-to-hand combat. There is an episode of Garek killing a lot of Cardassian Obisidian Order soldiers by ambushing them on a space station.

I don't know why people draw conclusions like Klingon anatomy being incredibly weak or Klingon physical conditioning being lack luster given that we know Klingons have redundant organs and are built to last, and that we know that Klingons can go through long endurance trials with blood wine that would make a human fall unconcious without medication. I can probably find other examples of Klingon strength and endurance. From this example, the conclusion is quite the opposite of the obvious one -- their military training emphasizes hand-to-hand far less than some would like to believe.

They did come in one-by-one, or at most two-by-two since I don't ever remember Garek or Dukat fighting more than one Klingon at a time. Dukat and Garek were able to knock out Klingons with Bat'leths. Use Occam's Razor. The Klingons were not well trained in using Bat'leths or even in hand-to-hand combat compared to Cardassian military training. Therefore their training does not emphasize hand-to-hand combat. Why the hell did the Klingons in that scene go in with Bat'leths then? Who the hell knows. Maybe the particular Klingons who attacked the corridor Dukat and Garek were guarding were from a single Bird of Prey whose commander ordered them to go in Bat'leths only to teach the Fed scum a lesson. In ST:III, Kruge orders his soldiers to go in "armed heavily" and they respond by going in with disruptor pistols and disruptor rifles. Don't give me this TOS Klingons versus DS9 Klingons bullshit, those were movie TOS series Klingons and there is continuity. So a good explaination is some stupid Klingon commander ordered his men to go in "Bat'leths only", and the Klingons got their asses kicked by Dukat and Garek because they don't spend their time idiodically like Worf and train with a Bat'leth.

118 NEW ANGLE

As the assembled Klingons draw their weapons. Sisko
and his men prepare for a fight.

119 NEW ANGLE (OPTICAL)

As Gowron and Worf duel, one of Gowron's bodyguards
leaps onto the platform and takes aim at Worf. Gowron
steps back and draws his own disruptor.

GOWRON
No.

Gowron shoots the Klingon, sending him flying off the
platform. This gets everyone's attention.

GOWRON
Lower your weapons. If this
traitor wants a fight, I will give
him one.

This was from a scene where Gowron was awarding Klingon heroes medals. I don't know how many Klingons drew their disruptors, but from the text it seems that many Klingons drew disruptors. At the least you can say "Klingon Heroes" aka Klingons that live to fight more than a Tailor and an old Cardassian Commander use disruptors, and most of the Klingons carried disruptors in the episode including the guards to the prison, the guards to the door, and Gowron's bodyguards. The first instinct of that particular Klingon was to draw a disruptor, and not go for a Bat'leth, and if Klingon training indoctrinated their grunts to use Bat'leths all the time, you wouldn't expect so many Klingons to readily carry disruptors or Gowron's bodyguard to draw a disruptor as a first instinct.

Brian

[Robert Walper]

*snip*

The problem, braineyci, is any attempt to rationalize Klingon behavior as anything but moronic will be quickly quelled at SDN.

As for any examples of Bat'Leths being effective, that will quickly be jocked up to 1) lucky users and 2) incompetent attackers.

[Ghost Rider]

No, it's because for every success, they have multiples of failure, dipshit.

If you have a record of 5 wins-2078 losses. No one discounts the successes but no one but a moron would call it a good record.

But it's nice you still have a good record of snipping at the shadows like the fucktard you are, Walper.

[Lord Pounder]

*snip*

The problem, braineyci, is any attempt to rationalize Klingon behavior as anything but moronic will be quickly quelled at SDN.

As for any examples of Bat'Leths being effective, that will quickly be jocked up to 1) lucky users and 2) incompetent attackers.

Can YOU offer any example of a Bat'leth being effective or have you just made one of your usual non-posts?

[Robert Walper]

Can YOU offer any example of a Bat'leth being effective or have you just made one of your usual non-posts?

Nope. I was going by braineyci's suggestion Dukat used one effectively. I'm merely pointing out how that will inevitably be disproven.

[Lord Pounder]

Can YOU offer any example of a Bat'leth being effective or have you just made one of your usual non-posts?

Nope. I was going by braineyci's suggestion Dukat used one effectively. I'm merely pointing out how that will inevitably be disproven.

No actually you where taking a very poorly veiled swipe at the pro-wars board, if you had a point to make you should have made it you worthless turd.

[Robert Walper]

No, it's because for every success, they have multiples of failure, dipshit.

I can't begin to hide my shock and disbelief.

If you have a record of 5 wins-2078 losses. No one discounts the successes but no one but a moron would call it a good record.

Fucking duh.

But it's nice you still have a good record of snipping at the shadows like the fucktard you are, Walper.

If stating the truth is "sniping at the shadows", guess the label applies.

[Robert Walper]

Can YOU offer any example of a Bat'leth being effective or have you just made one of your usual non-posts?

Nope. I was going by braineyci's suggestion Dukat used one effectively. I'm merely pointing out how that will inevitably be disproven.

No actually you where taking a very poorly veiled swipe at the pro-wars board, if you had a point to make you should have made it you worthless turd.

Riight...pointing out that the Klingons are considered moronic by SDN generally is a veiled swipe at the pro wars board. By your logic, if I point out to someone that a claim of phasers being more powerful that TL's is inevitably going to be disproven, I'm taking a swipe at the pro wars board too.

[Ghost Rider]

Nope. I was going by braineyci's suggestion Dukat used one effectively. I'm merely pointing out how that will inevitably be disproven.

No actually you where taking a very poorly veiled swipe at the pro-wars board, if you had a point to make you should have made it you worthless turd.

Riight...pointing out that the Klingons are considered moronic by SDN generally is a veiled swipe at the pro wars board. By your logic, if I point out to someone that a claim of phasers being more powerful that TL's is inevitably going to be disproven, I'm taking a swipe at the pro wars board too.

No, you fucking retard.

If you want to show they aren't mornoic do something you usually don't do.

Prove it, dipshit.

The reason they are considered moronic is because their record speaks for itself. Much like many other things, so if you don't have anything but your petty little snips and bitching, stop because this close to being split and shoved because this nothing more then your usual bullshit "who me?" de facto usage of how you handle shit when called out on.

[Ghost Rider]

Fuck it...Walper has decide to be more of a retard then usual.

Locking because it'll be an endless litany of Robert going "Why do you hound me!!"

Or

"Warsies don't like me!!"

Anything new?

Hardly.