Realistic ISD vs. GCS Scenario.

[BrandonBray]

Well, we know from STtMP, that going to warp inside a solar system is dangerous, a fact born out by "The Best of Both Worlds" where the Borg and E-D had to drop out of warp near Saturn. It was also mentioned in an episode of DS9, when Kira made a warp jump in system, in the episode "By Inferno's Light."

We know that E-D did not go to warp after having her shields and weapons knocked off-line by a hostile warship in "The Survivors", while in close orbit to a class M planet. This, despite Picard’s hurried retreat from the system. It has been a few years since I’ve seen the episode, but if I remember correctly, wasn’t Enterprise-D pulled out of warp by the gravity well produced by the Dysons sphere, in “Relics.”

We know that Cochrane and Enterprise NX went to warp near Earth, but only at a distance of what appeared to be several thousand kilometers away from the planet.

There was also information in the STNG-TM which suggested that gravity field would interfere with warp fields and mass lightening technology related to impulse drives.

These are just the episodes I can remember off the top of my head and, while I freely admit that the evidence is anecdotal, it does seem to suggest that there are some form of problems with going to warp near a mass or gravity field.

[General Zod]

Well, we know from STtMP, that going to warp inside a solar system is dangerous, a fact born out by "The Best of Both Worlds" where the Borg and E-D had to drop out of warp near Saturn. It was also mentioned in an episode of DS9, when Kira made a warp jump in system, in the episode "By Inferno's Light."

We know that E-D did not go to warp after having her shields and weapons knocked off-line by a hostile warship in "The Survivors", while in close orbit to a class M planet. This, despite Picard’s hurried retreat from the system. It has been a few years since I’ve seen the episode, but if I remember correctly, wasn’t Enterprise-D pulled out of warp by the gravity well produced by the Dysons sphere, in “Relics.”

We know that Cochrane and Enterprise NX went to warp near Earth, but only at a distance of what appeared to be several thousand kilometers away from the planet.

There was also information in the STNG-TM which suggested that gravity field would interfere with warp fields and mass lightening technology related to impulse drives.

These are just the episodes I can remember off the top of my head and, while I freely admit that the evidence is anecdotal, it does seem to suggest that there are some form of problems with going to warp near a mass or gravity field.

so basically all we know is that they -normally- don't enter warp drive near a planetary body. which still does all of jack and shit for providing evidence that going to warp near large gravitational fields will affect them. there's also a huge gap between 'being dangerous to do' and 'will cause the warp drive to fail'. unless you'd care to provide the actual quotes, as i've said before, you have no point.

plus, there's a huge difference between the amount of gravity produced by a dysons sphere, which surrounds an entire fucking solar system, and a planet, which does not.

[BrandonBray]

Oooo. Someone's getting upset.

So, since I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that warp drive does not work well enought to make a micro-warp jump near a planet - which I wasn't trying to do anyway, given I was just trying to point out things to consider - then suddenly we have to assuem that it will work... even though you cannot provide defintive proof that warp drive is immune to a planet's gravity field?



But seriously, I still am not convinced that going to Warp near a planetary body is a good idea, else E-D would have just gone to warp in "The Survivors" (if there was a moment to hit the gas and bug out, that was it), and the STNG-TM wouldn't have even mentioned problems with their propulsion system when near a planet.

Clearly though, gravity fields can effect warp systems, else E-D would have just kept on trekking right by that Dyson sphere.

I think it is a factor to consider.

You don't.

These things happen.

Anyway, this still brings us back to the last subject brought up, which is jamming technology.

If the ISD can put up jamming to block communications and sensors, as seen in ROTJ, how might this effect the GCS's ability to accomplish their mission? What tactics might the GCS employee to get around this?

Thoghts?

[Big Phil]

The tactic is very simple - the GCS has to avoid getting hit by the ISD.

Everything else mentioned here - warpspeed in gravity wells, ISD jamming, TIE Fighters chasing shuttles or planetary defenses, is irrelevant.

[Luzifer's right hand]

The Dyson sphere bullshit again?

PICARD
Bring us out of warp, Ensign.
All stop.

RAGER
Aye, sir.

The ship starts to shake

PICARD
Report.

WORF
We have entered a massive gravitational field.

Data
There are no stars or other
stellar bodies listed on our
navigational charts. However,
sensors indicate the presence of
an extremely strong gravitational
source in this vicinity.

PICARD
Can you localize the source of
the gravity field?

Dyson shpere is shown on the screen

RIKER
Sensors?

DATA
I am having difficulty scanning
the object. However, it would
appear to be approximately two
hundred million kilometers in
diameter.

RIKER
That's nearly the size of Earth's
orbit around the sun.

PICARD
Why didn't we detect it before
now?

DATA
The object's enormous mass is
causing a great deal of
gravimetric interference. That
might have prevented our sensors
from detecting the object.

Picard gave the order to drop out of warp before they encountered the gravitational field. There is no evidence at all that the ship was pulled out of warp.

[LordShaithis]

So yeah, the Feds might pull off this mission if they do everything essentially perfect, and the Imps are shooting sorta shitty that day. Which could happen, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

[Kamakazie Sith]

Isn't there an instance in canon of a starship going into warp while in a planet's atmosphere, or am I daydreaming bullshit again?

Yes, I forget the episode name but the Enterprise warps out right near the planet beams the away team down then jumps back into warp immediately after the away team has materialized

[Kamakazie Sith]

Oooo. Someone's getting upset.

Who is getting upset?

So, since I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that warp drive does not work well enought to make a micro-warp jump near a planet - which I wasn't trying to do anyway, given I was just trying to point out things to consider - then suddenly we have to assuem that it will work... even though you cannot provide defintive proof that warp drive is immune to a planet's gravity field?

Well, you've failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that warp drive does not work well enough. Especially when once considers the fact that they have jump and dropped out of warp near planets.

But seriously, I still am not convinced that going to Warp near a planetary body is a good idea, else E-D would have just gone to warp in "The Survivors" (if there was a moment to hit the gas and bug out, that was it), and the STNG-TM wouldn't have even mentioned problems with their propulsion system when near a planet.

It clearly isn't consider a good idea. That's why Starfleet has regulations against it. However, episodes have shown that it is possible and pretty easy.

Clearly though, gravity fields can effect warp systems, else E-D would have just kept on trekking right by that Dyson sphere.

I think it is a factor to consider.

You don't.

Sadly, your memory of that episode is off.

Anyway, this still brings us back to the last subject brought up, which is jamming technology.

If the ISD can put up jamming to block communications and sensors, as seen in ROTJ, how might this effect the GCS's ability to accomplish their mission? What tactics might the GCS employee to get around this?

Thoghts?

It's hard to say. The Empire would enjoy a nice ECM advantage.

[BrandonBray]

The tactic is very simple - the GCS has to avoid getting hit by the ISD.
Everything else mentioned here - warpspeed in gravity wells, ISD jamming, TIE Fighters chasing shuttles or planetary defenses, is irrelevant.

You are absolutely right.

Given the targeting systems aboard an ISD, that would be pretty hard too.

Picard gave the order to drop out of warp before they encountered the gravitational field. There is no evidence at all that the ship was pulled out of warp.

Thank-you for pointing this out. It has been years since I have seen this episode and I just could not, for the life of me, remember all the details. Thanks!

So yeah, the Feds might pull off this mission if they do everything essentially perfect, and the Imps are shooting sorta shitty that day. Which could happen, but I wouldn't bet money on it.

Yeah... yeah, you're right. The attack on the Tantive IV shows that an ISD can target smaller ships pretty well and, given that the GCS would have to move towards the ISD, their targeting couldn't help but improve as the GCS tries to get past them.

That, or the GCS could make a hard turn to starboard, go to warp, drop out well out of range of the ISD, scan the system and find the scientists and then warp over there and get them.

This, of course, assuming that the GCS could determine that the scientists were not still on the planet quickly enough to avoid being shot down by the ISD.

Yes, I forget the episode name but the Enterprise warps out right near the planet beams the away team down then jumps back into warp immediately after the away team has materialized

That was "The Schizoid Man" and actually, the Enterprise-D appeared to be several thousand of kilometers away from the planet during that episode, because we could see huge tracks of the planet's surface and the planet's rings. The ranges we were looking at, for where a gravity well might adversely effect a warp field, is around or less than 1000 KM.

Who is getting upset?

Swearing without provocation... dropping the ol' F-bomb. My experience has usually been that people are getting upset when you use upset language. Did misinterpret? If I did misinterpret this, I apologize.

Well, you've failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that warp drive does not work well enough. Especially when once considers the fact that they have jump and dropped out of warp near planets.

Oh, c'mon. Even Mike Wong talked about this, with regards to the low-level warp fields used in the Impulse engines!

Check it out.

It is under "Propulsion Technology" in the fourth paragraph, and Mike also sited "Generations", "Way of the Warrior", "A Call to Arms", "Tears of the Prophets"... though it has been a while since I have seen any of these, so I would have to review them or ask Mike to explain the details.

While we have seen Federation ships drop out of warp near planets, they always appear to be several thousand kilometers away when they do so, given how much of the planet we can see through the camera. I do not dispute that ships beyond a thousand kilometers can go to warp, I just bring up the fact that ships closer to a planet, even under dire circumstances where shields and weapons have been disabled... fail to go to warp.

Those instances just don't make sense.

A rational explanation would seem to be that certain distances need to be reached before it is safe to go to warp speeds, when near planetary bodies. Else, just going to impulse doesn't make sense.

Of course, I have provided my reasons for why I think there may be an issue with warp fields near planetary bodies.

Can you, or anyone else, show me any instance of a Federation starship jumping to warp, while orbiting a planet at distances at or less than 1000 kilometers?

Not to be a smart ass, I assure you, I just want to make sure I have my details straight on this issue. So, to give you an idea on visual distances, this is 1000 KM above Earth:



-- and this is 7000 KM above Earth:



I have never seen, nor can I remember any evidence showing that a Federation starship has ever gone to warp within a distance of 1000 KM or less from a planet's surface. I have seen it farther, like in "The Schizoid Man" and "Borderland", but in episodes like "The Survivors"...

You have to admit that it is a little odd that, while 1000 KM or less distance from Rana IV, standing nose-to-nose with an alien ship that has disabled their weapons, disabled and their shields, and Picard orders his ship to retreat as quickly as they can... that for some reason Enterprise-D makes a low-velocity turn to starboard and proceeded away at Impulse speeds, rather than jumping to warp speed; rather than jumping to safety?

If they could go to warp, NOT going to warp just doesn't make any sense. Nor does it make sense from other episodes I have spoken of, earlier. There has to be a reason and, graviy fields effecting warp bubbles is the only thing that makes sense.

But, like I said, if you or anyone else can show me an instance in which warp drive was used within a range of 300 to 1000 kilometers of a planet's surface, I will concede the point.

[Winston Blake]

Well, the Titan II ICBM the Phoenix was mounted on in First Contact probably could only manage a relatively low altitude. Unfortunately i don't remember the movie that well and can't find any relevant pics on google.

BTW Brandon,
1. How'd you get those nifty pictures of a particular altitude?
2. Who gives a flying fuck about casual fuckin swearing? God fucking dammit, this is the internet for fuck's sake.
3. Putting a grinning smiley after a sentence doesn't magically defuse any possible hostile response, it just makes you look like a smarmy git.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

2. Who gives a flying fuck about casual fuckin swearing? God fucking dammit, this is the internet for fuck's sake.

More specifically, this is SDN. Some boards really don't allow swearing, like TFN, but you worry about the mods a lot more in those boards. HIs choice

[brianeyci]

Can you, or anyone else, show me any instance of a Federation starship jumping to warp, while orbiting a planet at distances at or less than 1000 kilometers?

Yes. Klingon Bird of Prey jumps to warp in ST:III and ST:IV, relatively close to a planet. In ST:IV, they actually go to warp in the atmosphere of Earth. Don't give shit about a BOP's warp being somehow different that Federation warp, in all rationality Federation warp should be more advanced than Klingon warp, and appealing to ignorance eg., "We haven't seen a Federation ship go to warp in the atmosphere" doesn't work either because Klingon and Federation warp are the same, what are we going to say next "We haven't seen a Federation ship beam up whales and water" so it can't do it? Please. Before you use this strawman show that Klingon warp is somehow more advanced than Federation warp.

Federation ships not going to warp near planets or in the atmosphere can easily be explained by tactical incompetence rather than inability to do so. Also, we know that the usual tactic is to "re-route warp power to the shields",

GEORDI'S COM VOICE
We could run the shield grid
directly off the warp drive.

PICARD
(to com)
Make it so.

STAR TREK: "Hero Worship" - REV. 10/16/91 - ACT FIVE 54.

85 CONTINUED:

WORF
(working instruments)
Initiating warp transfer pathways
now...

85A ON DATA AND TIMOTHY (OPTICAL)

Data, still rapidly working at the console.

GEORDI'S COM VOICE
Diverting warp power to the
shields.

TIMOTHY
"Warp power to the shields"...
they said that too, Data... I'm
positive...

Data reacts... continues to work the panels...

86
thru OMITTED
87

88 INCLUDE WORF AND VIEWSCREEN (OPTICAL)

An intense blurring of space is billowing toward them
-- even more threatening than before.

WORF
(off instruments)
Wavefront intensity has increased
by a factor of ten. Contact in
forty-seven seconds. Without
additional power to the shields,
the outer hull will not hold...

RIKER
(to com)
La Forge...

STAR TREK: "Hero Worship" - REV. 10/18/91 - ACT FIVE 55.

89
thru OMITTED
91

91A ON DATA AND TIMOTHY (OPTICAL)

Data looks like he's thinking at lightning speed
evaluating the numbers that scroll past him on the
monitor.

GEORDI'S COM VOICE
Warp transfer to the shields
complete. That's as strong as
they're gonna get.

As far as we know this is standard procedure, so in instances where the shields fail and the ship is about to be fucked warp power has probably already been diverted to shields and weapons. Remember Kirk in ST:II, did he approach Reliant from behind because the Enterprise-Nil was incapable of using thrusters and approaching Reliant from its soft underbelly like Enterprise-X did against those Klingon cruisers in TNG "All Good Things...", or was it because Kirk was tactically incompetent? Many better reasons to explain why they don't go to warp more often, including the low ranges of weapons, the ability to stay stationary and therefore have more shield power by diverting warp to the shields, and even mere tactical incompetence, rather than violating Occam's Razor and saying that somehow Federation ships are unable to go to warp near planets even though we've seen a BOP do it in the atmosphere.

Brian

[General Zod]

Oooo. Someone's getting upset.

So, since I cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that warp drive does not work well enought to make a micro-warp jump near a planet - which I wasn't trying to do anyway, given I was just trying to point out things to consider - then suddenly we have to assuem that it will work... even though you cannot provide defintive proof that warp drive is immune to a planet's gravity field?

don't be so fucking stupid. you're the one claiming planetary gravity actually affects warp seriously enough to make it inoperable so it's your claim that requires backing up. the fact that they normally don't go to warp near a planet could be nothing more than simple operating procedure or tactical incompetence as mentioned earlier.

Clearly though, gravity fields can effect warp systems, else E-D would have just kept on trekking right by that Dyson sphere.

once again dyson sphere level gravity is not comparable to a planetary body's gravity. the difference in mass is simply too great. it's like saying that because someone can get stopped in their tracks by a boulder because it's made out of rock thus they can get stopped in their tracks by a pebble because it's made out of rock.

[Ted C]

LOCATION:

1. Federation Territory, Camblis system:
Solar system consists of seven planets, two of which are gas giants. Star is a medium sized yellow star almost identical to Earth's and, as such, there is no special radiation, magnetic fields or bogus subspace fields with which to concern ourselves with. Camblis' second planet is an M class world with no moons and is almost identical to Earth. Again there are no special radiation, gravitational forces, etc. Camblis II will be the setting for our battle.

(NOTE: This battle takes place at a point when the Federation and Empire are already at war. Fans can choose to place this in the context of Mike Wong's fan-fic if they wish, but they don’t have to.)

TARGET(s):

Federation research outpost on Camblis II.
Federation scientists fleeing Camblis II aboard 20 assorted small vessels.
Hostile enemy vessel located in the area.

ORDERS:

2. FEDERATION

message: Starfleet Command
to: USS Challenger
command: Captain Pike, Jonathan
priority: Alpha One
orders: A Federation colony in the Camblis system must be evacuated immediately. This system, once thought to be secure, is now on the front lines of our war with the Empire. Home to a Federation "think-tank" whose research includes the development and improvement of Federation shield technology, Camblis' is an invaluable asset that must not fall into enemy hands. You are ordered to proceed to the Camblis system (warp 5 limit suspended until further notice) and evacuate the colonists and destroy all
records. DO NOT let the scientists come to harm or fall into enemy hands.
Transmission End
Starfleet Command

SETTING:

The Furious has hyper-jumped into orbit of Camblis II and per their instructions have proceeded to invade the planet and seize the colony. Twenty craft, carrying the Federation scientists shoot their way past Imperial forces and break into open space. In response to the escaping vessels the Furious has launched TIE squadrons to intercept and capture/destroy the colony ships (none of which are warp capable), and provide strategic air support for the ground assault taking place on the planet, leaving her with only one wing of TIE Fighters for cover. Furious is not aware that they have an opportunity to capture the Federation scientists and, consequentially, perhaps find a way to completely circumvent Federation shield technology.

Twenty minutes later the USS Challenger drops out of high warp, into orbit of Camblis II opposite of the fleeing colony ships with the Furious BETWEEN her and the besieged convoy of Federation scientists. Unaware that the Furious' captain does not know how valuable a target the fleeing scientists are, the captain of USS Challenger assumes the worst and prepares to fight his way past the Furious and save the scientists.

Is there a way for me, as Captain of the Challenger, to pull of a win here?

Tring to fight my way past the Furious is out of the question, but hopefully I won't have to. I will attempt to race past the Furious at low warp. ISDs are not known to engage targets moving at FTL speed, nor are then known to have interdiction equipment, so this should be feasible.

Hopefully this will get me to the fleeing colony ships well ahead of the Furious. I would then need to suppress the TIE fighters attacking the convoy long enough to transport the scientists onto the Challenger and then destroy the colony ships.

Assuming that the rescue is successful, I will again go to low warp to put some distance between myself and the Furious. A quick interrogation of the scientists will determine whether there is any information on Chamblis that needs to be kept out of Imperial hands. If so, I will need to warp back to the planet, drop from warp just long enough to launch a full spread of high-yield torpedoes at the colony site, and then go back to warp to get clear before the Furious can bring its firepower to bear.

The plan depends on a tactical advantage of warp drive; I can get around the system at FTL speed, avoiding combat with the ISD while accomplishing my objectives. It assumes that the ISD cannot effectively track a ship zipping about the system at warp speed. It also assumes that the ISD can't or won't respond quickly to my actions or predict them. Naturally, if any of these assumptions proves false, I'm toast, but it's the best plan I can come up with for the Federation commander.

[Ted C]

For what its worth, warp propulsion within a system does seem to be possible. The Enterprise expected to get from the outskirts of the system to a close orbit around the star within a few minutes in "Tin Man", indicating that they were still traveling at FTL speeds. They dropped way down in speed, but they were still at warp. We've also seen a Klingon cruiser go to warp from a low altitude over a star ("Redemption"), so even a star's gravity won't keep the warp drive from operating.

Moving around a system at warp 1 or warp 2 might be a little dangerous, but it definitely beats going toe-to-toe with a Star Destroyer.

[Robert Walper]

I do not dispute that ships beyond a thousand kilometers can go to warp, I just bring up the fact that ships closer to a planet, even under dire circumstances where shields and weapons have been disabled... fail to go to warp.

The fact that their shields and weapons are disabled speaks volumes. When a ship is so heavily compromised in combat capability, it's not surprising they would be unable to escape. Particularily if the enemy is intent upon capturing or destryoing you; they would attempt to disable or hinder any means of escape. This would only require them to target engines on a enemy starship...a common tactic in Trek.

[brianeyci]

What's really surprising is that we don't see the tactic of warp strafing more often. The obvious answer is "Da Fedz stopid". Lets look for a less obvious answer.

Before people jump on me and say there is no proof of warp strafing -- well, it should be possible since we have seen objects in warp interact with objects which are stationary, and we have seen torpedoes fired in warp (and possibly phasers). Perhaps the explaination is that the sensors are not good enough. Although if sensors are good enough to start the entanglement effect of the transporter, they should be good enough to fire a phaser or a torpedo. Simply line your ship up with the enemy ship, go to warp, and unless the other ship also goes to warp you will be able to hit it no matter how shitty your sensors are. So the sensors explaination doesn't hold up.

Another explaination is what I showed above -- that it is a common tactic to reroute power from the warp to the shields. A ship in warp doing warp strafing may not have enough firepower to harm a ship not in warp but using all warp power diverted into the shields and weapons. I've already shown that diverting warp power is a common tactic in battle. As well any stationary ship that had some sort of disadvantage over a ship in warp would immediately go to warp himself if the commander wasn't a dofus.

The "divert all power to shields and weapons" is a good explaination rather than saying "the Federation suxors" and claiming tactical incompetence because they never use their speed to their advantage. Rather than resort to stupidity, which is the last resort, Occam's Razor tells us there are advantages to Federation ships staying sublight rather than going to warp in combat, when we have evidence of such advantages with the warp power being diverted to the shields and weapons. Stupidity is an unnecessary variable one must introduce.

Yet another explaination is what Worf did in DS9 "Once More...",

KOLANA
I've identified... ten vessels so
far... and sir, they're gaining on us.
<snip>

WORF
We could disrupt their warp
fields with an inverse graviton
burst. That would force them to
drop to impulse until the
gravitons dissipated.

KOLANA
We would need to generate a
massive burst to disrupt the warp
fields of a fleet that size.

WORF
A single bird of prey could do it
by diverting warp power to the
main deflector.

MARTOK
How long would that delay them?

KOLANA
They could reinitialize their
warp cores in less than two
minutes...

Although the Klingon officers aren't aware of this tactic and it takes Worf to explain it to them, that doesn't mean that this tactic is somehow unusual or unorthodox. In a large Federation fleet, a few ships could be dedicated to continuously diverting warp power to their deflector arrays to prevent warp strafing or warp. This could be standard Federation procedure.

That's the best I can do, but its a helluva lot better than "Da Fedz Stoopid".

Brian

[General Zod]

For what its worth, warp propulsion within a system does seem to be possible. The Enterprise expected to get from the outskirts of the system to a close orbit around the star within a few minutes in "Tin Man", indicating that they were still traveling at FTL speeds. They dropped way down in speed, but they were still at warp. We've also seen a Klingon cruiser go to warp from a low altitude over a star ("Redemption"), so even a star's gravity won't keep the warp drive from operating.

Moving around a system at warp 1 or warp 2 might be a little dangerous, but it definitely beats going toe-to-toe with a Star Destroyer.

we've been shown it's possible to go well past warp 1 or 2 within a system from the numerous times ST has used the slingshot effect to travel back through time by going almost right on top of a star.