Hyperdrive in Alpha Quadrant

[gamesguy]

Federation ships can't run into anomalies in the same sense that an Imperial ship would; Fed ships aren't pulled out of warp by gravity wells. Hell, a ship went to warp inside Earth's atmosphere in one of the movies.

But for an Imp ship, the anomaly-of-the-week is a real concern. Maybe a hyperspace route doesn't happen to hit an anomaly, maybe it does, but they are out there, whether or not any ship goes looking for them. And, of course, there's all the roving ion/magnetic/gravity/electromagnetic storms show up on Star Trek episodes. If hyperspace routes have to go around a nebula—and they do—then they have to go around these too.

bullshit, prove that hyperdrives are affected by storms of the week and nebulas.

Imperial sensors aren't that good. From the edge of a system they can count planets and check habitability, and detect large-scale energy readings such as planetary shields. They have to get in close to find a major installation. This is supported by Chapter 14 of Specter of the Past.

Again bullshit, prove that imperial sensors are not good enough to pick out signs of inhabitants, especially since most federation ones are likely to have space borne structures

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Your anomoly of the week argument is unjustified, since the said captain goes around looking for trouble, it sometimes picks up anomolies on its sensors X LYs away, and goes to investigates it, thats entirely different from literally running into the said anomolies.

The real point there, of course, is that the chances in interstellar scales of an anamoly (even in a zone as relatively dense as Star Trek's AQ) being directly in the path of an Imperial hyperspace path is abysmally small. To have so many anamolies within a few light years makes the space admittedly dense, but that still leaves way too much room. An analogy might be a minefield where a mine is scattered randomly at a density of 1 every square kilometer. More than average? Yes. Would stop anyone? Probably not.

[Winston Blake]

Again- why can't you just use probots and simple observation? Again- hyperspace travel's big conundrum is avoiding hazards in real space- i.e. "bouncing off a supernova", as Han put it.

Read and be enlightened: http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#astrogation

You can't use direct observation, because 1) you can only see stars, not black holes or dark matter or meteor showers or comets or diffuse interstellar gasses that have a definite mass shadow in hyperspace; and 2) what you see is hundreds of years out of date and you have no way of knowing where they've moved to now.

1)

As mentioned in some novels (eg. The Courtship of Princess Leia) it is possible to construct a sufficiently powerful and expensive telescope to observe the people on an inhabited world, from a vantage point far away in interstellar space.

www.theforce.net/swtc/misc.html

Navicomputers contain at least a rudimentary database of navigational obstacles and destinations within the galaxy.

http://theforce.net/swtc/hyperspace.html#astrogation

They can watch a guy pissing in the bushes from interstellar space, and navicomputers need only a rudimentary database. I don't see the big problem in using acquired AQ starcharts or in mapping, even ignoring probe droids.

2) Stars, planets and moons have easily predictable paths and orbits. Knowing the positions of systems/planets/etc and observing for a short time allows any Imp ship with an understanding of basic Newtonian mechanics to extrapolate to practically any given point in history.

Let's say the system is inhabited. The Fed sensors will pick up the initial incursion and microjumps, and will then be able to pick up the probot itself, especially since it has to get pretty close to planets. The pattern would clearly be a recon pattern. Now the local Feds have an idea of Imperial probot capabilities. They know they've been scouted by an unknown, powerful alien race. They'll report this to the nearest Starfleet vessel, which could be only hours away, or as much as a month. Local security officials would start preparing for a possibly hostile first contact situation.

Clearly a 'recon pattern'? Considering the range of Imperial sensors the Feds would probably just see an erratic blip on long range sensors which disappears after a few hours, and write it up as Anomaly #10047. Even if they realised it was a tiny probe ship, why should "they know they've been scouted by an unknown, powerful alien race"?

You can surely see how this would make the defeat of the Federation much harder than previously assumed, though, of course, still doable.

I'm afraid i don't, and i expect i'm not merely speaking for myself.

So, the meteor swarms and such that infest space wouldn't destroy an Imperial ship, but would drop it out of hyperspace suddenly, causing minor repairable damage, and requiring a new course to be plotted. For relatively unknown areas, this takes a few hours, according to the novels. No big deal, though.

Could we have some quotes? I've never heard of dropping out of hyperspace causing damage, or it taking hours to plot a new course.

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You're going on and on about how dangerous the AQ would be for hyperdrive. The vastness of space and eagerness of Trek ships to study anomalies have already been mentioned. But how many of those dangerous spacial anomalies are only dangerous to a ship heavily using subspace technology? The shockwave from Praxis exploding barely affected Qo'noS, but the Excelsior was tossed around like a rag doll, most likely due to its submergence in subspace, necessary for impulse drive. http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... raxis.html

The warp core of the Ent-E attracted the devastating isolitic 'subspace tear' weapon in STI. How many spacial anomalies would have negligible effect on technology that is not so dependent on subspace? What fraction of anomalies that we've seen were described as gravitic, compared to those that were subspace-related? How do we know whether the gravitic effects were comparable to that of a mass shadow that would cause a SW ship to drop out of hyperspace?

But the mapping of the core took years; check the links I posted. The Empire could throw more probes at the Alpha Quadrant and reduce the mapping time, but that would just serve to alert every Alpha Quadrant system and installation that much quicker, and there is minimum amount of time that mapping a single route would take. No way the AQ could be mapped in days.

The Deep Core is not typical of the conditions in normal inhabited space.

Deep Core
The most central parts of the Core, with the highest density of bulge and disk stars. This region probably contains the galaxy's central super-massive black hole. According to the literature, the Deep Core is undesirable or difficult to traverse.

www.theforce.net/swtc/galaxy.html

Also, the neighbouring stars are typically 300 times closer than is typical near our Sun.
http://www.theforce.net/swtc/galaxy.html#exploration

How hard is it to establish a route to any particular destination? How much time does it take? It evidently doesn't take much effort at all, providing that someone has an incentive to reach the particular part of space. The Dark Empire Sourcebook documents that the Deep Core was charted within just a few years, using merely "thousands" of probots, at the behest of Senator Palpatine. This exercise is trivial compared to the galaxy's total industrial capacity, which is capable of building a moon-sized battle station in secrecy. In fact this number of probes is many orders of magnitude less costly of materials than a single star destroyer. Furthermore the reported survival rate of the probes is respectable, considering their disposability.

Since the Empire is launching an invasion of the AQ, i'd say that's a pretty big incentive.

And thank you for bringing this up. The Federation just gained a new weapon, as much good as that will do. They can build their own interdiction fields which they won't be affected by.

Evidence for the Feds being able to generate wide-scale gravity fields of sufficient strength? Also, given the time for the Feds to develop such interdictors, existing Imperial interdictors can be upgraded to produce subspace fields which affect Trek ships but not Wars ships.

I'm worried about random gravitational anomalies and other uncharted things that cast a planet-sized mass shadow, or more. That will block hyperspace travel; any fleet that runs into one has to explore and calculate a new route.

Evidence for "other uncharted things that cast a planet-sized mass shadow, or more"? So they'll simply sidestep the anomaly and jump into hyperspace again. Reverse a bit, turn 90 degrees, microjump about a light year, turn 90 degrees back and carry on. Big deal.

And I'm more worried about large distortions that can pull a fleet out of hyperspace without warning and tear it apart before the fleet can move to a safe distance or raise their deflectors. Federation ships don't really have to worry about that, though, because they can't get pulled out of warp so easily; see my other post.

Evidence for "large distortions that can pull a fleet out of hyperspace without warning and tear it apart before the fleet can move to a safe distance or raise their deflectors."? Note: IIRC in ANH Han exited hyperspace near Alderaan with his shields already up.

Federation ships can't run into anomalies in the same sense that an Imperial ship would; Fed ships aren't pulled out of warp by gravity wells. Hell, a ship went to warp inside Earth's atmosphere in one of the movies.

Imperial ships can't run into anomalies in the same sense that an Federation ship would; Imp ships aren't pulled out of hyperspace by subspace distortions. Hell, the USS Excelsior and Ent-E were kicked in the balls as a result of dependence on subspace tech in two of the movies.

Imperial sensors aren't that good. From the edge of a system they can count planets and check habitability, and detect large-scale energy readings such as planetary shields. They have to get in close to find a major installation. This is supported by Chapter 14 of Specter of the Past.

Quote please. Recall above, SW has telescopes that can observe people on a planet from in-between two systems.

[Vympel]

?the hell? Did I say anything about not using hyperdrive? Of course the Empire will use hyperdrive, they just won't rely on Federation charts to do it. They will have to find and use safe routes on their own. I say "have to" because hyperdrive safety interlocks won't let them use unsafe routes, they'll get kicked out of hyperspace.

What hyperspace safety interlocks? Can you define what the interlocks operate off, and what their standard for "unsafe" is? Also, you did say something about not using hyperdrive, in your very first post:

I do not believe the Empire could make much use of hyperdrive in the Alpha Quadrant, for a very simple reason?it is uncharted.

I can name one, that's all I need to name. There was an episode where a giant asteroid threatened to destroy a planet inhabited by billions. If the Federation charts included things like that, it wouldn't have been a surprise. Let's see?the title of the episode is Deja Q.

Incorrect. That was a "descending asteroidal moon", according to Captain Picard's log, not a rogue.

Incorrect. The Federation is premised to be in another galaxy. See http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/. And, of course, navicomputers won't have extra-galactic information. They don't even have information for the Unknown Regions.

You don't get my meaning. The Federation takes up a very small region of their own galaxy. It is not necessary to map the entire thing.

I guess I should have spelled it out for you. The Empire doesn't care about subspace or warp drive. But, they do?or should?care about spacial anomalies. And this is because many spacial anomalies have gravitational effects, which means a mass shadow, which means the anomalies interrupt a hyperspace jump and can destroy ships, even a fleet of ships (considering the size of a formation) if the anomaly is strong enough. It just so happens that subspace instability tends to cause spacial anomalies. Since there is a lot of unstable subspace in the AQ, there are a lot of spacial anomalies. Do you follow?

I defer to other posts made on the subject, in particular, Winston Blake and Kazuaki Shimazaki, so as not to repeat myself.

Trouble finds him more often than he looks for trouble. Keep in mind that the Enterprise stops to check out every little anomaly they happen to spot. Other ships must encounter the same number of anomolies, but they choose to ignore them and continue on their merry way.

I doubt that. It's the Federation's mandate, after all, and we've seen other ships exploring "anomalies" before- see the Excelsior under Sulu's command in Star Trek VI.

They can get away with that, because warp drive is relatively unaffected by gravity wells. Sure, maybe the Enterprise was pulled out of warp by that Dyson sphere, but even if it was, keep in mind that a Dyson sphere is several times more massive than an entire solar system, and is a fraction of the size. Anti-gravitons will stop a warp drive, but regular gravity? Hyperdrive-equipped ships are far more vulnerable.

Again, I refer to Winston Blake about Federation starships own peculiar vulnerabilities- there's also your assumption that most anomalies would cause gravitic phenommena that would manifest as mass shadows in hyperspace. But what does the one observed Dyson Sphere have to do with anything? Now *that's* sure as shit something you spot with a telescope.

And thank you for bringing this up. The Federation just gained a new weapon, as much good as that will do. They can build their own interdiction fields which they won't be affected by.

By all means, if you can demonstrate their ability to create interdiction fields of their own.

True, and I never said otherwise. My argument is simply that it won't be as easy as everyone is assuming, because of the implications that follow from the Alpha Quadrant being uncharted. The 100 Star Destroyer plan probably won't work, for example.

Sure it will. They can't actually *defeat* 100 Star Destroyers- how long it might take is a side issue.

No, my premise is that the Alpha Quadrant is unmapped by the Empire. That's not even a premise, that's a given. My conclusion is that the outlined battle plan will run into the snags I'm describing. The bit about the uselessness of Fed charts is a separate conclusion based on the implications of Star Trek episodes and hyperdrive theory.

No, I was referring to your " Federation charts are useless for plotting safe hyperspace routes" claim. That's one of your conclusions in dispute.

I don't think you know what my argument is. I hope I've cleared it up for you in this post.

Then you should've been more careful in your first post.

[Winston Blake]

Roaming meteor showers? Name the episodes in question.

I can name one, that's all I need to name. There was an episode where a giant asteroid threatened to destroy a planet inhabited by billions. If the Federation charts included things like that, it wouldn't have been a surprise. Let's see…the title of the episode is Deja Q.

Newsflash: an asteroidal moon is not a meteor shower somehow roaming through interstellar space. I'll assume you just messed up and weren't being intentionally dishonest.

[Lord Zentei]

I haven't been able to find much information, but scouting hyperspace routes seems to work like this: 1) enter random hyperspace co-ordinates, 2) make the jump to lightspeed, 3) see if you survive.

You can't possibly be serious.

I am serious. This is how it must be done. See http://www.theforce.net/swtc/galaxy.html#exploration

<snip blah blah snip blah blah snip>

Yeah, okay. I withdraw those examples.

But for the rest of it: I'm right, and you know I'm right. All my assertions are supported; check the web-pages and episodes.

You are full of shit, you know that? We have refuted your silly claim about how hyperspace routes are charted as well as the claim the probe droids would not be able to map out Alpha Quadrant in short order, and yet you still say that you're right and we know it?

[Illuminatus Primus]

This cretin obviously doesn't understand how mostly empty space is. Shit like meteor showers and comets are miniscule compared to the gravity well of a main sequence star, its not even the same ballpark. They are a threat on direct impact which needless to say even if you spin the numbers and fly blind through a star system it is not very likely.

Telescopes giving a rudimentary view and probots followed by scouts will take no more than maybe a week to figure things out. Not to mention course corrections can be made in hyperspace (ref: Dark Empire).

[Ghost Rider]

Also...just because he mentions gravity so much I would like to point out that the Falcon did jump about 00KM(?) from a Neutron Star.

The gravity well system is for pure safety and is not the yardstick by which we should immediately assume that the Empire would need to abide by if they encounter some pointless Space Thing(tm).

[Lord Zentei]

What difference would it makle anyway if the Empire had to spend a year or so charting Alpha Quadrant? It's not as though it will change anything in the end, will it? It's not as if sacrificing several tens of thousands of probe droids for charting an 8000 light year stretch of space is anything overwhelming, is it?

"Hey, it's not as easy to bench press 50 pounds as it is to bench press 25 pounds, and you know I'm right!!!111"

Whatever.

[Ghost Rider]

What difference would it makle anyway if the Empire had to spend a year or so charting Alpha Quadrant? It's not as though it will change anything in the end, will it? It's not as if sacrificing several tens of thousands of probe droids for charting an 8000 light year stretch of space is anything overwhelming, is it?

"Hey, it's not as easy to bench press 50 pounds as it is to bench press 25 pounds, and you know I'm right!!!111"

Whatever.

Which is pretty much everyone's else problem at heart of all this.

So it takes three weeks instead of three days to find Earth and tell the Federation to suck the Emperor's teat.

Pretty much the argument is people want to see how much does he understand of Hyperspace lore vs what he's gleaned from Saxton's website.

[Lord Zentei]

Which is pretty much everyone's else problem at heart of all this.

So it takes three weeks instead of three days to find Earth and tell the Federation to suck the Emperor's teat.

Pretty much the argument is people want to see how much does he understand of Hyperspace lore vs what he's gleaned from Saxton's website.

Yeah, well, the reason I concentrated our objections in this way was so that he couldn't hide behind details and semantics. Just to see if he really can make a valid point out of all this or is just making a trivial observation.