The Sith on DS9

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Who would the Sith Lord choose as his apprentice?

Captain Sisko
2
4%
Constable Odo
5
10%
Lt. Dax
1
2%
Lt. Worf
5
10%
Chief Mile O'Brien
2
4%
Lt. Julian Bashir
4
8%
Maj. Kira Nerys
21
41%
Quark
5
10%
Jake Sisko
0
No votes
Other...
6
12%
 
Total votes: 51

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Stofsk
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Post by Stofsk »

Bellator wrote:
Dooku was already trained. He's refering that Sisko would have to be trained from day 1.
That goes for all characters. Just about all of them are well above 30 (excl. Jake, Nog, etc) and don't have prolonged lifespans (excl. Odo, Dax). If Luke already was too old then most DS9 characters certainly are.
No, by too old he's in his 50s or something, AND he's a Federation ideologue.
So you'd have to pick between Odo, Nog, Jake and Dax, plus a few semi-regulars perhaps. Possibly Bashir, depending on if his enhancements include a drasticly prolonged lifespan.
NONE OF THEM HAVE HATE, ANGER OR FEAR.

Kira DOES. Plus she's still fairly young. You can make up some BS about a pagh-wraith possessing her, thus - there's your Force powers. Sisko could be her opponent. I don't fucking know.

Being Sith is NOT ABOUT DRESSING IN BLACK AND LOOKING COOL. It's a psychological mindset, one which doesn't come to the greater majority of people. Kira is the only one who's the ideal candidate. As to being Force Sensitive, NONE OF THE CHARACTERS COUNT. This is a hypothetical scneario: "what if these characters had equal Force Sensitivity; which one would be ideal as a Sith Apprentice?"

Kira counts; she's already experienced in combat. She's pissed off at the cardassians (ANGER), afraid of them coming back for Occupation Part Two (FEAR), and wouldnt mind it so much if cardies die (HATE). She was a fucking terrorist for shit's sake!
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Post by Lord Revan »

the only people that I can think of who could become Sith (have correct mindset) are Kira (ex-terrorist) and Worf (he's intelegent enough(if he want's to), had serious impulse control problems (like all (post-)TNG klingons) and has hatred for romulans due to the death of his parents).
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Post by Bellator »

This is a hypothetical scneario: "what if these characters had equal Force Sensitivity; which one would be ideal as a Sith Apprentice?"
Then why again does age matter? Someone who's untrained in his or her 20s is already too old (according to Yoda anyways), let alone 30s or up. But if it doesn't matter if someone is 30-ish, why does it matter if someone is 40-ish or 50-ish?
he's a Federation ideologue.
Sisko even used WMDs on a Maquis (=human) colony just to capture one man! Federation idealogue my ass. This isn't Picard we're talking about!
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Post by Stofsk »

Bellator wrote:
This is a hypothetical scneario: "what if these characters had equal Force Sensitivity; which one would be ideal as a Sith Apprentice?"
Then why again does age matter? Someone who's untrained in his or her 20s is already too old (according to Yoda anyways), let alone 30s or up. But if it doesn't matter if someone is 30-ish, why does it matter if someone is 40-ish or 50-ish?
Age matters because he will be set in his ways.

Imagine if Pellaeon was force sensitive. Why would Emperor Palpatine decide to make him his apprentice, when Luke Skywalker is around?

Furthermore, we're not looking at the candidates and suggesting any one of them could make a GREAT Sith Apprentice. We're looking at them and noting which have the best qualities for a Sith Apprentice, given they're the only ones available at the present time. Kira has those qualities. Sisko does not.
he's a Federation ideologue.
Sisko even used WMDs on a Maquis (=human) colony just to capture one man! Federation idealogue my ass. This isn't Picard we're talking about!
Picard was quite prepared to commit xenocide-by-noninterference if it meant not violating his precious Prime Directive. (season seven episode with Worf's step brother) He was prepared to unleash a bizarre WMD upon the Borg and was only persuaded against it by his idiotic CMO and Chief Engineer, who had no place lecturing him on command decisions. That girl in season two, who's planet was going to be destroyed, was only saved from destruction because he heard her voice. How many other planetary populations have died because a Starfleet captain was too uncaring and too unemotional to intervene? yet in spite of this, Picard was not full of anger or hatred or fear in his decision, except in regards to the Borg (yet that was prudent strategic option irregardless).

Sisko's act pales in comparison. He was launching an attack on rebels and terrorists. There couldn't have been that many of them, and the effect of the weapon is such that a full-scale evac would have been easily accomplished (in fact, that is what happens at the end of the episode anyway, in another touching Trek displat of the 'reset button'). And once again, he did not hate the Maquis, or was angered by their plight - he initially had sympathy for their cause, but it was their methods which drove him to oppose them - it was more of a ploy to force Eddington to surrender to him. And Eddington, like the schmuck that he was, bought it.

For the fucking umpteenth time, Sisko is not full of hate, anger, or fear, unless you count the Borg, and that plot development was thrown out IN THE FIRST FUCKING EPISODE. Sisko never encountered the Borg again after Wolf 359. Kira on the other hand grew up under the occupation of Bajor, saw first hand her friends, lovers cut down by the brutal Cardassians. Assuming she is Force Sensitive, she's the ideal candidate from the selection we have been given to consider.

This isn't goddamn rocket science.
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Post by Lord Revan »

Bellator wrote:
This is a hypothetical scneario: "what if these characters had equal Force Sensitivity; which one would be ideal as a Sith Apprentice?"
Then why again does age matter? Someone who's untrained in his or her 20s is already too old (according to Yoda anyways), let alone 30s or up. But if it doesn't matter if someone is 30-ish, why does it matter if someone is 40-ish or 50-ish?
Yoda was talking about Jedi who need resist the dark side the Sith do not.
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Post by Phoenyx »

I choose Kira (with Dax as a back up). Mainly because women are noted for a viciousness that is never taken into account.
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Post by Steven Snyder »

Stofsk wrote:1. Remember Section 31 and their attempts to turn him to 'the dark side' and betray the Federation and his friends? He would have none of it. Sloane even tried that whole "You're gifted; but still cursed" routine. Julian's too smart. And too nice.
With all due respect, the clown in charge of Section 31 is no Sith Lord. Leak his gene-modified status to the public, then have Dax murdered by whatever passes for genetic purists in the ST universe and you have a cauldron of hate brewing.
Guys, to become a Sith you need to embrace the dark side. That means: anger, fear, hatred. Bashir doesn't fall into it.
Bashir has a weakness in that he is deeply in love and has a dark secret that he must hide. I think it is possible to turn him.

Kira is a good alternative for the reasons you mentioned.
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Post by Bellator »

So what is needed to be lured to the Dark Side? Is it always Fear -> Anger -> Hate? Or could Greed (or other emotions or characteristics) be a means to turn someone?
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Post by Publius »

Bellator wrote:So what is needed to be lured to the Dark Side? Is it always Fear -> Anger -> Hate? Or could Greed (or other emotions or characteristics) be a means to turn someone?
Anything at all can be a lure to the dark side of the Force ("The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"). Known causes include arrogance (Exar Kun), madness (Joruus C'baoth), greed (Jerec), lust (Ulic Qel-Droma), immaturity (Anakin Skywalker), overconfidence (Luke Skywalker), and pride (Tremayne). Any powerful emotion or feeling can potentially prompt a sapient being to fall (knowingly or unknowingly) to the dark side of the Force -- hence the Jedi Order's ban on attachment (an ineffectual and overly simplistic attempt to isolate Jedi from potential stumbling blocks).
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Post by brianeyci »

Let's come back to Earth here (or maybe not because we're discussing sci-fi) but here it goes.

"Turning" someone to the Dark Side may be impossible in ST for the simple reason that The Force doesn't exist in ST and there is no great energy field or field around all living beings.

Before people counter with "ah, but this and that and this could be The Force"... well you're committing a violation of the Golden Rule of sci-fi debating. Just like we can't say "That won't work the same way in this universe because this universe is different" we can't say "This is the same in this universe as the other universe therefore it has to work the same way", which is logically equivalent. The Force would work for the Sith, but that doesn't necessarily mean that ST humans have/are within Force. Betazeds do not get their telepathic abilities from Force, nor do Vulcans, nor does anybody else have Force. Q does not get his abilities from Force.

If you want me to spell it out for you,

A : working the same way
B : universe is different

~A => B
"Hyperspace won't work the same way in ST because the universe is different."

~B => A (logically equivallent)
"The way we see superpowers work in ST is the same as in SW, therefore they way they work is exactly the same aka The Force."

Turning just anybody is a load of shit. What makes a person forget their allegiances, their loyalties, their friends, family and loved ones? When I'm angry, or filled with hate, or afraid, or greedy, I'm not going to forget all my past experiences and loyalties. Every one of the DS9 protagonists with the exception of Kira have sworn an oath to SF, and they wouldn't forget that because of a lot of hate, fear or anger, especially when you consider they are outside The Force and may not be able to be manipulated easily by it. Moreover, every one of the DS9 protagonists have risked their lives to save innocents, and have not harmed innocents except possibly Kira. So Kira is really the only choice, if it is possible at all.

And some will bring up Vader. That's a load of shit, any ST protagonist you know went through a camp of Tusken Raiders and killed them all even though many were innocents? Kira, maybe. SF Officers, no. They really believe their propaganda, and it doesn't just go away because a Sith Lord waves a hand and makes the person feel angry. Turning someone will take years on the order of how Palpatine turned teenage Anakin into a brutal killing machine, unless there is something extreme to exploit such as father-son relationship between the turnee and turner "Vader is Luke's father, so Luke be persuaded to turn" is what I think was going through Palpatine's mind, there is no other justification for Palpatine spending years grooming Anakin while thinking he can turn Luke in a minute.

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Post by Ghost Rider »

Brian look up Begging the question, sweeping generalization, and strawman.

Because I don't remember anyone claiming some of the garbage you've claimed and just for a matter...I love you use Luke and Anakin an example yet ignore someone like Count Dooku, and Jerec as examples.

Because you obviously didn't read the opening post or chose to blindly ignore it to rant.
Assuming that everyone is equal in the eyes of force sensitivity, who do you expect the Sith Lord would recruit?
Note what he says there.

Read what you wrote or more specifically.
"The way we see superpowers work in ST is the same as in SW, therefore they way they work is exactly the same aka The Force"
He says they are already Force sensitive, not that the powers work the same. In fact that load of bullshit is nothing more then begging the question, but I already asked you to look it up.
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Post by brianeyci »

Ghost Rider wrote:Because you obviously didn't read the opening post or chose to blindly ignore it to rant.
More rant than anything. I read stuff about explaining Q powers in terms of The Force, and I thought that was a load of shit. Sorry for the thread hijack.

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Post by Bellator »

Anything at all can be a lure to the dark side of the Force ("The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"). Known causes include arrogance (Exar Kun), madness (Joruus C'baoth), greed (Jerec), lust (Ulic Qel-Droma), immaturity (Anakin Skywalker), overconfidence (Luke Skywalker), and pride (Tremayne). Any powerful emotion or feeling can potentially prompt a sapient being to fall (knowingly or unknowingly) to the dark side of the Force -- hence the Jedi Order's ban on attachment (an ineffectual and overly simplistic attempt to isolate Jedi from potential stumbling blocks).
Interesting. That would make Quark a likely / the most likely candidate for turning, I think.
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Post by jegs2 »

My vote is for Captain Sisko. He suffered a terrible loss with the death of his wife, and the Sith could channel his latent feelings into hatred and bend him more easily to the Dark Side.
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Post by Stofsk »

Bellator wrote:
Anything at all can be a lure to the dark side of the Force ("The road to Hell is paved with good intentions"). Known causes include arrogance (Exar Kun), madness (Joruus C'baoth), greed (Jerec), lust (Ulic Qel-Droma), immaturity (Anakin Skywalker), overconfidence (Luke Skywalker), and pride (Tremayne). Any powerful emotion or feeling can potentially prompt a sapient being to fall (knowingly or unknowingly) to the dark side of the Force -- hence the Jedi Order's ban on attachment (an ineffectual and overly simplistic attempt to isolate Jedi from potential stumbling blocks).
Interesting. That would make Quark a likely / the most likely candidate for turning, I think.
No, it wouldn't make him the most likeliest candidate. Aside from Publius' post and of how many causes can be attributed to falling to the Dark Side, what we learn from the movies is that fear -> anger -> hatred -> the Dark Side. Aside from this Kira has had direct experience sowing TERROR in her enemies.

Kira's the most likeliest candidate. She's pissed off, afraid, full of hate (at least at the start of the show), has killed Cardies, has killed even Bajoran collaborators (IIRC), and has used terrorist tactics in the process of doing the above.
jegs2 wrote:My vote is for Captain Sisko. He suffered a terrible loss with the death of his wife, and the Sith could channel his latent feelings into hatred and bend him more easily to the Dark Side.
Except that Sisko's feelings for the Borg were never really addressed after Emissary, which leads me to think it no longer holds any real weight for him. After he reached a spiritual understanding with his wife's passing he let go of a lot of the impotent rage he had suffered with after Wolf 359.

People say that he's full of hate; where in the series is this shown? The show is saw always depicted Sisko as a level headed person with the ocassional temper tantrum. He's certainly passionate, and has a 'do whatever it takes' and 'get your hands messy' personality, but to go from there to embracing the Sith ideology? Why is he going to abandon the Federation he's a star Captain of, and that he's defended with his life?
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Post by Darth Servo »

Stofsk wrote:
jegs2 wrote:My vote is for Captain Sisko. He suffered a terrible loss with the death of his wife, and the Sith could channel his latent feelings into hatred and bend him more easily to the Dark Side.
Except that Sisko's feelings for the Borg were never really addressed after Emissary, which leads me to think it no longer holds any real weight for him. After he reached a spiritual understanding with his wife's passing he let go of a lot of the impotent rage he had suffered with after Wolf 359.

People say that he's full of hate; where in the series is this shown? The show is saw always depicted Sisko as a level headed person with the ocassional temper tantrum. He's certainly passionate, and has a 'do whatever it takes' and 'get your hands messy' personality, but to go from there to embracing the Sith ideology? Why is he going to abandon the Federation he's a star Captain of, and that he's defended with his life?
Furthermore, even with Sisco's "do what ever it takes" mentality, he always comes down either before or after the fight to give a pompous speech about the horrors of war, fighting shoulod only be a last resort, peace loving Federation, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Lets here it for Darth Kira!
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Post by NeoGoomba »

I would say Garak has all the qualities and skills needed to begin training, but his emotions are far to well controlled.

Oh well. Season Seven Kira was banging hot, so seeing her all in black like the Intendant again wouldn't be a bad thing
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Post by LordShaithis »

I voted Quark just for the hell of it.

Darth Quark.

Yeah motherfuckers, everyone vote Quark!
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Post by NecronLord »

Thing to remember folks, is that to learn the Dark Side is much, much, much easier than becoming a Jedi.

Learning control is what Jedi Training is all about. Luke learnt to be the most powerful jedi to ever live[/i] with a few months teaching. It is self control they need many years to learn, not power. Sith aren't big on self control.

And you're a liar (or not attracted to women) if you say you wouldn't enjoy seeing Kira in this outfit. :P
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Post by Crazedwraith »

LordShaithis wrote:I voted Quark just for the hell of it.

Darth Quark.

Yeah motherfuckers, everyone vote Quark!
It wouldn't be darth quark though or Darth Kira no more than it's Darth Skywalker.

I'm sorry...:D Am i being a killjoy?
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Post by NecronLord »

"Darth Greed" for Quark then?
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Post by Crazedwraith »

NecronLord wrote:"Darth Greed" for Quark then?
Just as long as he doesn't shoot first. (sorry very bad joke)
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Post by Darth Servo »

NeoGoomba wrote:I would say Garak has all the qualities and skills needed to begin training, but his emotions are far to well controlled.
Garak? How many Sith tailors do you think are out there?

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Post by NeoGoomba »

Darth Servo wrote:
NeoGoomba wrote:I would say Garak has all the qualities and skills needed to begin training, but his emotions are far to well controlled.
Garak? How many Sith tailors do you think are out there?

"I find your lack of style disturbing"
Well maybe he'll wear something other than the same drab black robe that Dark Jedi seem to love so much :P
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Post by Drooling Iguana »

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