ship comparison

[Batman]

Which makes it an exceptionally stupid material to use for what passes for 'armor' in Trek. And I have the distinct suspicion that those calculations where based on just as many false assumptions as Gustav32Vasa's were. Mind you, I haven't checked them yet so I may be doing the man a disservice.

Well I was going to use very conservative numbers, like 99% of 99% until you guys told me that cubes has no hull.

Er, what? 99% of 99%? Could you elaborate, please?
99% are empty space, and of the 1 % that isn't 99% are still empty space? That's a weird way of putting it but that's certainly conservative
Or are you talking 1% of a % is Tritanium? While that's still mightily conservative I wish you good luck in finding out the density of the Cube.
And take a look at the bloody thing.
I certainly can't see a hull. And no offense intended, but your calculations fly in the face of every last E-D firepower calculation ever done (at least by reasonable people).

[Junghalli]

1. Borg cubes don't HAVE 'hull's in that sense. They're all girders and ductwork, and their interior is apparently open to space.

Then how do they have atmosphere?

Same way Fed ship's don't depressurise when the shuttle bay is opened. Atmosphere containment field.

Evidence please that Borg ships have no outer hull. Just because their exteriors are covered with pipes and girders doesn't mean there's no outer hull, so if you don't mind I'd like to see some confirmation of this IMO rather unbelievable claim.

[Junghalli]

Think on the bright side. When an ISD goes down, it means enough Imp crew dead for dozens of larger Fed ships, and probably hundreds for small Trek ships.

Is that supposed to make the Feds feel better somehow? The Empire has at least thousands, probably millions of times the population of the Federation.

[Batman]

Evidence please that Borg ships have no outer hull. Just because their exteriors are covered with pipes and girders doesn't mean there's no outer hull, so if you don't mind I'd like to see some confirmation of this IMO rather unbelievable claim.

Check the fucking picture. The is a fuckton of empty space between those pipes and girders. Hell, you can look right through those spaces.

[Batman]

Think on the bright side. When an ISD goes down, it means enough Imp crew dead for dozens of larger Fed ships, and probably hundreds for small Trek ships.

Is that supposed to make the Feds feel better somehow? The Empire has at least thousands, probably millions of times the population of the Federation.

Well, as the old saying goes, every silver lining has a cloud

[Gustav32Vasa]

I certainly can't see a hull. And no offense intended, but your calculations fly in the face of every last E-D firepower calculation ever done (at least by reasonable people).

I'm not reasonable
j/k

Anyway, I admit that my calcs are way more powerful that any done here. However StarTrek is good at atleast one thing, I hope you'll agree, and that is horrible continuity. In one episode a torpedo is below kiloton in another its >1 000,000 TT.

[Batman]

I certainly can't see a hull. And no offense intended, but your calculations fly in the face of every last E-D firepower calculation ever done (at least by reasonable people).

Anyway, I admit that my calcs are way more powerful that any done here. However StarTrek is good at atleast one thing, I hope you'll agree, and that is horrible continuity. In one episode a torpedo is below kiloton in another its >1 000,000 TT.

Quite simply wrong. Your baseless calcs aside, while Trek DOES have lousy continuity, there is not a single instance of PTs being more than low-MT levels at best. Their performance, while being incnsistent like nobody's business, is so in a moderately firmly defined range. There is no evidence for PTs even approaching the TM 64MT figure, leave alone your 1E6 TT figure.

[Junghalli]

Check the fucking picture. The is a fuckton of empty space between those pipes and girders. Hell, you can look right through those spaces.

I assume you're referring to this.

<snip>

<snip>

I see piping and girders extending from what looks to me like an irregular inner hull. What it looks like is that a Borg ship's hull is actually irregular with lots of projections and modules, and the cube shape is really a kind of open scaffolding around the hull. Forgive me but this seems much more reasonable than saying that Borg cubes are open to space and they keep their atmosphere in with forcefields that run 24/7.

[brianeyci]

There is obviously a hull. The idea is whether the Ent-D hit something critical and caused a secondary explosion, or whether the NDF effect ate away the hull material.

We've seen NDF eat away hull material later in DS9. It looks exactly like that, eating away. From this, I'm pretty confident in saying that they must have hit something important. Phasers never cause an explosion in what they hit, they just punch through and if the phaser shot is powerful enough they cause residual NDF effect.

Brian

[Nieztchean Uber-Amoeba]

It should be noted that a second shot just made a big semi-spherical hole in the hull with no explosion whatsoever. I'd say the hole was 500 meters long, at least.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

Is that supposed to make the Feds feel better somehow? The Empire has at least thousands, probably millions of times the population of the Federation.

Now is that fact supposed to make those parents of the 37000 dead crewers any happier? They may be Imps, but the regular crews (and IIRC about 60% of the stormies - the others are clones according to latest theory) have parents and family.

[Junghalli]

Now is that fact supposed to make those parents of the 37000 dead crewers any happier? They may be Imps, but the regular crews (and IIRC about 60% of the stormies - the others are clones according to latest theory) have parents and family.

Seeing that Earth is about to get overrun by an evil, despotic dictatorship I really can't say I'd feel that sorry to be honest. They are enemies after all. My point was that it doesn't represent anything remotely resembling militarily equivalent losses.

[Kazuaki Shimazaki]

On the other hand, this will be a great chance for the Federation to get some nice goodies like hyperdrive (and relatively free travel). Besides, this is far from Imperial Center, so they might get a nice Moff and be left in relative peace (the poor non-humans are going to get it now, though).

As to your point about it not representing strategically equivalent losses ... well, in case you hadn't noticed, this is about a galactic civ with teraton range weaponry going against a regional civ with megaton range weaponry. It is a million times worse than US vs Iraq.

But what kind of loss ratio would you accept, for the sake of argument? Yes, we all know the best story battles are made with equality, but not necessarily the best story (sometimes, the experience of the weak side struggling against the strong could be made into a story of epic proportions - Star Wars for example).

[Junghalli]

On the other hand, this will be a great chance for the Federation to get some nice goodies like hyperdrive (and relatively free travel).

A rather poor trade-off for being enslaved if you ask me.

Besides, this is far from Imperial Center, so they might get a nice Moff and be left in relative peace (the poor non-humans are going to get it now, though).

Oh yes, so we won't be as opressed as some. How nice. I still fail to see how anybody could really consider the Empire taking over anything besides an utter disaster.

As to your point about it not representing strategically equivalent losses ... well, in case you hadn't noticed, this is about a galactic civ with teraton range weaponry going against a regional civ with megaton range weaponry.

That's exactly what makes it so depressing. The bad guys are so much more insanely powerful than the good guys that trying to stop them is like trying to stop a forest fire with a squirt gun.

But what kind of loss ratio would you accept, for the sake of argument? Yes, we all know the best story battles are made with equality, but not necessarily the best story (sometimes, the experience of the weak side struggling against the strong could be made into a story of epic proportions - Star Wars for example).

Well, if I was a Fed I'd obviously rather be facing the Empire from Graham Kennedy's Portal .
Seriously, I don't really have a problem with Wars having way more firepower than Trek. If you look at stories like Manifest Destiny it handles the problem pretty well. Personally IMHO I think Conquest kind of gloats over it though, which I didn't really like (just my opinion here).

[NecronLord]

A rather poor trade-off for being enslaved if you ask me.

It's only for a short time. The Will of the Force will apparently destroy the Empire regardless.

[Batman]

A rather poor trade-off for being enslaved if you ask me.

It's only for a short time. The Will of the Force will apparently destroy the Empire regardless.

Oh golly. And then they're members of the New Republic which will blunder its way through crisis after crisis in the most incumbent matter imaginable until totally collapsing in the face of the Vong invasion. They're propably better off as a remote and largely forgotten province of the Empire.

[NecronLord]

Oh golly. And then they're members of the New Republic which will blunder its way through crisis after crisis in the most incumbent matter imaginable until totally collapsing in the face of the Vong invasion. They're propably better off as a remote and largely forgotten province of the Empire.

Yup.

[Darth Lucifer]

http://img16.exs.cx/img16/5683/comparison21xf.png

I made a few ships scaled to the pic referenced in the original post. I don't have the detailed specs listed, but the scaling is accurate (at least according to ex-astris-scientia.org) Here is a list of ships:

Andorian Warship

Klingon D-7 Battlecruiser (Or Romulan, or K'Tinga class)

Scimitar from Nemesis

Ferengi Battlecruiser

The Sulaco from Aliens (Fuck Yeah!!)

Miranda Class (I don't know why it wasn't on there to begin with)

Oberth Class (Kinda pointless; it's barely more than a speck)

Constellation Class (Another why wasn't it there)

Nebula Class (Phoenix Variant)

The Prometheus from Voyager (I've never seen the episode...I would have done the Dauntless but it was too small and looked like shit).

The Relativity (Just for you time wankers)

Enjoy!

[Darth Lucifer]

oops..the relativity is missing...I'll have to repost...