SMART Borg Cubes vs. an ISD

[Daimyo]

I highly doubt that the shields were down for communication needs. We saw in ANH where the rebel squadron was duking it out with Imperial fighters and gun emplacements with their shields up and they were communicating with each other to coordinate strategy. If shields had to be dropped in order to communicate, how the heck are you going to get a message to someone with their shields up? Wave at them?

I will grant you that their shield generators may have been off-line due to being hit by the Ion cannon on Hoth earlier. Though presuming that all the ships in the search party had been hit and lost their shield generators is a bit much...

Your opinion is irrelevent to the facts. They can communicate via radio with shields up. but to use subspace or the holonet, they need to drop shields. They were communicating via the holonet. Ergo, shields were down.

I'm sorry, I must have slept through that part - where is the reference for this? I know it was not in the movies and I'll admit to having only read a few of the books. Source please?

[Sea Skimmer]

I'm sorry, I must have slept through that part - where is the reference for this? I know it was not in the movies and I'll admit to having only read a few of the books. Source please?

Thawn Trilogy

[Daimyo]

And I would love to see the evidence that they can accelerate to the velocities mentioned in here without AMRE.

Uhm, I think the evidence is that we, the primitive beings of 21st century Earth, can accomplish this feat. Sure we can only hope to acheive ~.001C after years of acceleration, but it is within the realm of OUR possibility.

I think it has been clearly demonstrated that even ST has superior engine technology to us and therefore should be able to accomplish this feat.

Or perhaps the people of ST do not have to extreet wastes because "it's never been demonstrated" either?

Please, this is not some uber-death-ray I pulled out of my imagination but good old physics - or as someone pointed out, relativistic physics - at work here.

[Daimyo]

I'm sorry, I must have slept through that part - where is the reference for this? I know it was not in the movies and I'll admit to having only read a few of the books. Source please?

Thawn Trilogy

Thank-you Sea Skimmer. BTW, what did you think of the trilogy? I've read other Zahn books but have avoided reading SW for the most part.

[Ender]

And I would love to see the evidence that they can accelerate to the velocities mentioned in here without AMRE.

Uhm, I think the evidence is that we, the primitive beings of 21st century Earth, can accomplish this feat. Sure we can only hope to acheive ~.001C after years of acceleration, but it is within the realm of OUR possibility.

Unwarrented extrapolation. We currently have dedicated ground forces, where are those in Trek?

I think it has been clearly demonstrated that even ST has superior engine technology to us and therefore should be able to accomplish this feat.

Leap in logic. Superior yes, but hoow superior? And keep in mind that their effectiveness is dependent on AMRE

Or perhaps the people of ST do not have to extreet wastes because "it's never been demonstrated" either?

Pandering to extremes

Please, this is not some uber-death-ray I pulled out of my imagination but good old physics - or as someone pointed out, relativistic physics - at work here.

Yesit is. Hence why I want proof. You are talking about moving a multibillion ton machine with no visible means of propulsion to .6 C in a short amount of time, not a small satallite to .001C over years and years. I want to see the evidence that without AMRE they are capable of that. I want to see that their engines are efficient enough and that they have enough fuel to do it. I want to see that the ship's structure can withstand the stress that having engines going with that kind of output to do it. I want to see that, given the mass of the ship and the necessary fuel requirements, relativitly won't kick in and prevent it from achieving those speeds. I want prof that their (what I presume are) gravimetric engines don't require AMRE to be active to work.

[arctic_series]

And now we see why Daimyo is not an engineer or physicist.

That does make me curious as to what the final KE would work out to be though... Anyone with a scientific calculator and too much time on their hands care to work this out? I'm not sure I would know where to begin - or more precisely, while I could come up with the proper values for v, c, and m - I know my math skills are not up to the task of processing this formula properly.

your maths skills are not up to the task ?

did you even goto high school at all ?

[seanrobertson]

100+ Weapons that can one shot kill borg cubes

Capable of firing once every 2 seconds...

? 100 plus? An ISD's "light" turbolasers won't blow a cube up
with single shots, and they're the only weapons that number
over 100 to my knowledge.

And 100 cubes blown up by one HTL? How in the hell are they
going to cluster that closely to one another? In trios, cubes
are still kilometers apart ("Dark Frontier," "Endgame").

[Master of Ossus]

100+ Weapons that can one shot kill borg cubes

Capable of firing once every 2 seconds...

? 100 plus? An ISD's "light" turbolasers won't blow a cube up
with single shots, and they're the only weapons that number
over 100 to my knowledge.

And 100 cubes blown up by one HTL? How in the hell are they
going to cluster that closely to one another? In trios, cubes
are still kilometers apart ("Dark Frontier," "Endgame").

No, there are more than 100 MTL's, according to the models. An HTL may have the FIREPOWER to destroy 100 cubes, but it could not do so in a realistic, military sense of the word due to what Mr. Robertson is correctly pointing out. No one is THAT stupid.

[seanrobertson]

First of all a Cube can take a whole lot of punishment as well as deal it out look at the scores of gutted and derilict hulls a cube leaves behind from a battle. Secondly warp raming would tear one of the sds apart shields or no shields oh and by the dose any one care to know a cube out sizes you by a huge margin. it is 5km by 5km by 5km and for thoughs of you reaching for your calculators it is 125 cubic km.

We've never heard of the warp ramming tactic, and cubes
are definitely tough, but consider the [my word for the day]
context: cube vs. a rag-tag bunch of ships at Wolf 359. How do
those ships seriously compare to a Star Destroyer?

Moreover, a cube is "only" 28 cubic kilometers. We're
told this in "Dark Frontier," so it's 3,040m/side.

[Master of Ossus]

Actually, Sean, we have heard of warp ramming tactics but never observed them. In BoBW, Riker orders Wesley to set a course for the Borg ship orbiting Earth at maximum warp. Of course, the Borg ship was conveniently ordered to go to sleep by Data and destroyed itself, but the reference to such a maneuver was there, even if it was never performed.

It is strange that the Jem'Hadar never used these tactics during their war with the UFP and Klingons and Romulans, since they did ram opposing ships. My best explanation for this is that the JH knew they could destroy Galor class warships and GCS's without needing to go to warp, but that seems flimsy. If anyone has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it. Or we can just assume that Riker was an idiot and did not realize that he could not ram a Borg cube while at warp. In any case... somethin' screwy's goin' on, here.

[seanrobertson]

Actually, Sean, we have heard of warp ramming tactics but never observed them. In BoBW, Riker orders Wesley to set a course for the Borg ship orbiting Earth at maximum warp. Of course, the Borg ship was conveniently ordered to go to sleep by Data and destroyed itself, but the reference to such a maneuver was there, even if it was never performed.

Yes! I totally forgot that.

It's too bad we didn't see it...from what I understand, an
early draft for "Endgame" was to have a Starfleet ship
ramming a cube at warp. I'd have to guess that, given
how dire the situation was for Starfleet, warp ramming
must be inferior to conventional attacks for some reason
(presumably other than sacrificing lots of crew members
of course). My understanding of warp is rather limited
so I shouldn't speculate any further.

It is strange that the Jem'Hadar never used these tactics during their war with the UFP and Klingons and Romulans, since they did ram opposing ships. My best explanation for this is that the JH knew they could destroy Galor class warships and GCS's without needing to go to warp, but that seems flimsy. If anyone has a better explanation, I'd like to hear it. Or we can just assume that Riker was an idiot and did not realize that he could not ram a Borg cube while at warp. In any case... somethin' screwy's goin' on, here.

Agreed. It does seem that Riker is sort of a dolt...

I can't remember the episode's name, but it featured
Barclay, perhaps for the first time, and Barclay's holodeck
fantasies included some variation of the Three Musketeers.
Riker pops up and, in a really dorky voice, says, "Am I
late? Did I miss the fight?!" Barclay proceeds to kick his
ass with a foil.

Maybe that portrayal of Riker isn't so far off He only
launched a few measley photorps at the Son'a ships
in Insurrection, and he really screwed up in fighting
Lursa's [scout-class?] Bird of Prey, a ship that could've
easily been spanked had the Enterprise fought
back for five seconds.

Poor guy. I think Marina Sirtis/Troi is still cute as hell,
but even being married to her character...ugh. All of
that "I feel this, I feel that" garbage. Riker has it bad
on all fronts!

[Master of Ossus]

Agreed. It does seem that Riker is sort of a dolt...

I can't remember the episode's name, but it featured
Barclay, perhaps for the first time, and Barclay's holodeck
fantasies included some variation of the Three Musketeers.
Riker pops up and, in a really dorky voice, says, "Am I
late? Did I miss the fight?!" Barclay proceeds to kick his
ass with a foil.

Maybe that portrayal of Riker isn't so far off He only
launched a few measley photorps at the Son'a ships
in Insurrection, and he really screwed up in fighting
Lursa's [scout-class?] Bird of Prey, a ship that could've
easily been spanked had the Enterprise fought
back for five seconds.

Poor guy. I think Marina Sirtis/Troi is still cute as hell,
but even being married to her character...ugh. All of
that "I feel this, I feel that" garbage. Riker has it bad
on all fronts!

[Troi] Sean, I'm feeling a lot of pity that you have for Tom.[/Troi]

Actually, even Captain Picard made fun of him in the movie.

[Minor Spoiler ahead]






He called Riker, "Mr. Troi."

[seanrobertson]

No, there are more than 100 MTL's, according to the models. An HTL may have the FIREPOWER to destroy 100 cubes, but it could not do so in a realistic, military sense of the word due to what Mr. Robertson is correctly pointing out. No one is THAT stupid.

Damn. More than 100 MTLs (each of which, I understand,
is about the size of the Acclamator's heaviest guns)?
I had no idea. That's pretty awesome.

[Robert Walper]

So let me get this straight...an Imperial Star Destroyer has hundreds upon hundreds of weapons, with medium firepower estimated at producing 200 gigatons per canon, and is capable of firing multiple shots per canon within a reasonable timeframe, and they are concerned about entering an asteroid field?

I don't get it...even a damaged ISD only 25-50% effetive should be able to target hundreds of individual incoming asteroids and vape them all if this is true. Most asteroids shouldn't require 200 gigatons to destroy...so why did one get hit in the TESB incident? It being moderately or even potentailly heavily damaged isn't an excuse, because if even if all of it's HTL were inoperative, and 90% of it's MTL's are inoperative, and 75% of it's LTL's are inoperative, it should still be able to take on dozens of incoming asteroids, with guns measuring at gigaton firepower!

What gives?

[Master of Ossus]

The MTL's and HTL's are really designed for targetting larger ships. If you watch ESB, you'll see that the massive asteroids surrounding the Falcon and its TIE pursuers as they race through the belt are absent during shots of Death Squadron. It is actually the very small, fast moving asteroids that created a problem for the ships.

[Robert Walper]

The MTL's and HTL's are really designed for targetting larger ships.

Agreed, so they'd reserve their big guns for big asteroids. So if 90% of their MTL's are inoperative(clearly the ship would have to be heavily damaged), they can still direct at least 10 MTL's with 200 gigatons each at ten incoming big asteroids at the same time. Note, I'm being conservative with ISD guns claimed here, and vastly exaggerating asteroids flying at ISDs(ISD's are big, but not so big as to imply it's reasonable to assume ten massive asteroids are going to head toward one at any single time).

If you watch ESB, you'll see that the massive asteroids surrounding the Falcon and its TIE pursuers as they race through the belt are absent during shots of Death Squadron.

I'm not mistaken, smaller asteroids would possess insignificant energy in comparison to MTL's and HTL's, which a ISD should supposededly withstand, at least for a little while(otherwise it would be first shot first kill battles).

It is actually the very small, fast moving asteroids that created a problem for the ships.

Why? If an ISD has over a 100 MTL's at 200 gigatons each, just how many LTL's does it have and what power can they output? Going by the other number here, they should have many hundreds that can deal with small asteroids in rushes of hundereds per minute.

Even a heavily damaged ISd should have at least a couple of big guns to take out a dozen incoming large asteroids, and hundreds of LTL's to deal with hundreds small asteroids incoming per minute.

[Master of Ossus]

There are no visible LTL's on the surface of an ISD, and any speculation on the number of LTL's is just that. An ISD can withstand weapons fire from MTL's, but not very much. Star Destroyers can defeat each other in only a few broadsides, and the ISD's in question were subjected to numerous highly damaging asteroids every minute they were in the field. Part of the problem with being in the field for that long, also, is that they were incapable of detecting and targeting the fastest asteroids quickly enough to adequately protect the rest of the ship, and of course the vessel which suffered substantial damage to the bridge section likely had its shields down, anyway, at the time.

[Robert Walper]

There are no visible LTL's on the surface of an ISD, and any speculation on the number of LTL's is just that.

Alright, I'll keep that in mind.

An ISD can withstand weapons fire from MTL's, but not very much. Star Destroyers can defeat each other in only a few broadsides,

Then why didn't they kick ass in the ROTJ battle? If their opponents matched their firepower, either side should have been defeated in a few broadsides(and with the Rebels having numerical superiority, they should have won quickly). Clearly this wasn't the case, the battle was stretching on for some time. If the opponents to the ISDs were inferior, they should have been defeated even more quickly. Instead, we see an ISD exchanging a couple of TL's with a medical frigate that didn't look like it accomplished much damage. With hundreds of guns available, how come they only fired 2 to 3 shots? With a fleet of ISDs facing the rebels with hundreds of canons each, why wasn't the battlefield littered with TLs in huge waves? All we see is occasional shots here and there...like the ISD against the frigate example.

and the ISD's in question were subjected to numerous highly damaging asteroids every minute they were in the field.

Which shouldn't happen, those asteroids have to hit the ISDs to cause damage, but if one accepts that ISDs have hundreds of turrets with the firepower of 200 gigatons each, they should have laughed off dozens of asteroids coming at their ships at once. We're talking about non-jamming, predictible trajectory asteroids here, not agile human piloted fighters.

Part of the problem with being in the field for that long,

Okay, this makes sense. How long were they in the asteroid field? We should compare this to their estimated power generation, gun placements and firepower.

also, is that they were incapable of detecting and targeting the fastest asteroids quickly enough to adequately protect the rest of the ship,

They how can they possibly target agile fighters that constantly adjust trajectory and supposededly employ jamming technology? If they have trouble hitting non-jamming predictable trajectory asteroids, such fighters would seem virtually impossible in comparison.

and of course the vessel which suffered substantial damage to the bridge section likely had its shields down, anyway, at the time.

At the moment, I'm not concerned with the shields being up or down on a ISD. I'm concerned as to why an Imperial Destroyer can have hundreds of gun placements with gigaton yields, and yet a Imperial captain is nervous about entering such a field. With their firepower and number of turrets, they shouldn't have to worry about asteroids for at least for a significantly elapsed amount of time until power shortages to such weaponry becomes a problem.

[Master of Ossus]

Mr. Walper, to me it appears that we agree in nearly every area. I'll go over the only few minor points that you have questions on, but I don't see this as being a debate so much as an informational session.

An ISD can withstand weapons fire from MTL's, but not very much. Star Destroyers can defeat each other in only a few broadsides,

Then why didn't they kick ass in the ROTJ battle? If their opponents matched their firepower, either side should have been defeated in a few broadsides(and with the Rebels having numerical superiority, they should have won quickly). Clearly this wasn't the case, the battle was stretching on for some time. If the opponents to the ISDs were inferior, they should have been defeated even more quickly. Instead, we see an ISD exchanging a couple of TL's with a medical frigate that didn't look like it accomplished much damage. With hundreds of guns available, how come they only fired 2 to 3 shots? With a fleet of ISDs facing the rebels with hundreds of canons each, why wasn't the battlefield littered with TLs in huge waves? All we see is occasional shots here and there...like the ISD against the frigate example.

Rebel ships and Imperial ships are not necessarily better or worse, but they are different. Rebel ships maximize their defensive capabilities, with numerous shield banks and large ships. Imperial vessels place emphasis on firepower. ISD's can overwhelm each other with only a few shots, but against Calamari cruisers it will take significantly more time. This is especially true against the large, several mile long cruisers. Basically, since one side is willing to sacrifice shielding for weapons, and the other side sacrifices weapons for shields, we have a fight that lasts significantly longer. The frigate in question was likely not the priority target of the ISD, and it is possible that the ISD had already been damaged in combat, or it had expended a considerable portion of its energy reserves in other tasks and was incapable of engaging the frigate with all guns. You are correct, however, in that the ISD would have been easily capable of destroying that particular frigate.

In any case, the lack of weapons fire is strange in RotJ, but probably comes down to the jamming that was going on, and the murderously close range at which the battle was fought. We only see one HTL shot in the entire battle, and that shot is fired against an ISD that is further away from the other rebel capital ships than most of the engagement. The shot, of course, demolishes the ISD rapidly.

Which shouldn't happen, those asteroids have to hit the ISDs to cause damage, but if one accepts that ISDs have hundreds of turrets with the firepower of 200 gigatons each, they should have laughed off dozens of asteroids coming at their ships at once. We're talking about non-jamming, predictible trajectory asteroids here, not agile human piloted fighters.

We are, but there were literally thousands of asteroids that were incoming. After a while it becomes difficult for a crew to maintain 100% accuracy, and provide full protection against such a threat. The issue here is not firepower, or even accuracy, but rather the ability of the ships to acquire new targets and find the right targets. That is more difficult to do.

Part of the problem with being in the field for that long,

Okay, this makes sense. How long were they in the asteroid field? We should compare this to their estimated power generation, gun placements and firepower.

The estimates on how long the ships were in the field range from about 12 hours to several days. The range is generally acknowledged as being too great to accurately measure the shielding of ISD's.

also, is that they were incapable of detecting and targeting the fastest asteroids quickly enough to adequately protect the rest of the ship,

They how can they possibly target agile fighters that constantly adjust trajectory and supposededly employ jamming technology? If they have trouble hitting non-jamming predictable trajectory asteroids, such fighters would seem virtually impossible in comparison.

Frankly, if the ISD was to engage as many fighters as there were asteroids, it would probably be overwhelmed. I can point out that starfighters advertise their presence when making attack runs, but asteroids in a field that is as dense as the Hoth one and as violent as the Hoth one are constantly colliding, deflecting off of one another, and fragmenting. It is difficult to prioritize targets in such conditions. Star by Star reveals that in the SW universe, targetting artillery is actually easier than determining which targets to attack first. That makes some amount of sense, since targeting is done largely by automated systems, whereas some level of human input is needed to determine what is the largest threat.

At the moment, I'm not concerned with the shields being up or down on a ISD. I'm concerned as to why an Imperial Destroyer can have hundreds of gun placements with gigaton yields, and yet a Imperial captain is nervous about entering such a field. With their firepower and number of turrets, they shouldn't have to worry about asteroids for at least for a significantly elapsed amount of time until power shortages to such weaponry becomes a problem.

The captain likely felt that the asteroids placed his ship in unecessary danger. He knew that at least one of their ships had taken damage from an ion cannon (and EU reports imply that there were several ships hit). He incorrectly assumed that it was likely that the Falcon was destroyed by the asteroids, despite Vader's insistence that they were alive, and he felt that the asteroids introduced a random aspect to the battle that was unecessary. Moreover, he did not know how long they would be in the field, and the asteroids were clearly a danger to the smaller ships supporting the ISD's during their search, even if they would not have been a danger to the bigger ships. In any case, the captain's fears were somewhat confirmed. At least one ISD suffered relatively serious damage to its bridge tower, and one smaller ship was completely destroyed, in addition to the fighters that were lost.

[Robert Walper]

Mr. Walper, to me it appears that we agree in nearly every area. I'll go over the only few minor points that you have questions on, but I don't see this as being a debate so much as an informational session.

Your overall post seems to have addressed virtually all of my questions. Thanks for the feedback.

Side note, no need to call me "Mr."...frankly, that makes me feel old...Robert or Walper will do fine.

[Master of Ossus]

Your overall post seems to have addressed virtually all of my questions. Thanks for the feedback.

My pleasure, Robert.

Side note, no need to call me "Mr."...frankly, that makes me feel old...Robert or Walper will do fine. [/quote]

Sorry, I think it sounds respectful, but I'd be more than happy to honor your wishes in the future.

[Robert Walper]

Side note, no need to call me "Mr."...frankly, that makes me feel old...Robert or Walper will do fine.

Sorry, I think it sounds respectful, but I'd be more than happy to honor your wishes in the future.

No need to be sorry, I completely agree is meant respectively. However, when I use it(for example with Mr Wong), it is because I'm aware he is older than me, and also far more fluent in the language in which debates are carried on here(science).

However, when you used it, it gives the impression(to me and perhaps others) that I'm older(I'm only 22, you might be older than me), and/or that I am more experienced/fluent in the language debates here use(science). Sinced I don't fit either catagory, "Mr" applied by anyone addressing me seem inappropiate.

[Marcus]

Gentlemen, perhaps the Asteroid Field and the ISD impact, and its surrounding conditions, deserve their own thread preferably on the 'Pure Trek' board. Though the conclusions drawn there may be illuminating to the Borg Swarm condition, for the nonce its a discussion of Star Wars ships and Star Wars Rocks.

For my own curiosity... how is it that the Hoth field hasnt ground itself into a thin, evenly distributed powder already? Is it that young?

[Master of Ossus]

Gentlemen, perhaps the Asteroid Field and the ISD impact, and its surrounding conditions, deserve their own thread preferably on the 'Pure Trek' board. Though the conclusions drawn there may be illuminating to the Borg Swarm condition, for the nonce its a discussion of Star Wars ships and Star Wars Rocks.

For my own curiosity... how is it that the Hoth field hasnt ground itself into a thin, evenly distributed powder already? Is it that young?

The Hoth Belt is not particularly old, and was the result of a large planet's destruction about one million years ago.

[FettKyle]

I would like add the Stardestroyers were searching for the Falcon not trying to destroy it so they must have been reluctant to shot all the astroids around them especially the ones larger then 50 meters in diameter.