Lower limit Borg fleet size and strength...
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Lower limit Borg fleet size and strength...
For those interested and debating purposes, the following is a summary of the Borg fleet that is canonly known to exist:
Tactical Cubes: 138 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Cubes: 1,184 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Spheres: 878 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Total ships available: 2,200
The following is a summary/theory of Borg fleet strength relative to the Federation:
If 1 Cube matches 40 Federation ships (ref STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), then 1,322 Cubes is equivalent to 52,880 Federation starships.
If 1 Cube matches 300 Federation ships (ref ST:FC, based upon non-canon sources), then 1,322 cubes is equivalent to 396,600 Federation starships.
If 1 Sphere matches 18 Federation ships (ref ST:VOY "Endgame"), then 878 Spheres is equivalent to 15,804 Federation ships.
Lower limit fleet strength: equivalent to 68,684 Federation starships
Upper limit fleet strength: equivalent to 412,404 Federation starships
While viewing these numbers, one should also consider the following:
-It's assumed a Tactical cube is equivalent to a typical cube, despite apparently having a superior armored outer hull. There may be other types of tactical vessels with similar armor, such as Spheres, Probes, etc. However, that's based upon pure speculation.
-The numbers used here were gathered from Star Trek Voyager "Unimatrix Zero". They were stated by the Borg Queen when she was finding craft with "defective" drones. At no point were these numbers stated or determined to be upper limits or even large percentages of the entire Borg fleet. Higher numbered craft could easily be possible. These numbers have merely established absolute lower limits to the Borg fleet size, and should be considered as such.
-Other vessel types have not been mentioned here, such as the Borg "Scout"(ref STTNG "I, Borg"), "Probe"(ref STVOY "Dark Frontier) and "Diamond"(ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). There also may be other types not yet observed. Given these ships are much smaller than their Borg cube counterparts, it's not unrealistic to assume such craft would be available in significantly higher numbers. Since a Borg "Probe" is relatively similar in power to a Federation Intrepid class starship, they shouldn't be dismissed either.
-The Borg have recently been engaged in a massive war with Species 8472, which by all accounts cost them significant manpower and ships. In one battle alone, they lost over 300 cubes. This may indicate much higher numbers for the Borg fleet once existed, but was severely depleted during this conflict. However, one could also interpret the 300 ships lost as a significant portion of a fleet of roughly 2,200 "high end" vessels, hence the Borg's apparent corcern about imminent defeat.
-When saying "1 Cube matches 40 Federation ships", this implies forty Federation ships has equal footing against a Cube. As seen in "Best of Both Worlds", this is clearly not the case. And as also seen in Star Trek: First Contact, a single Cube was able to plow through the best defenses the Federation could rally against it, despite the Federation having approximately six years to prepare for such an encounter. The Cube in First Contact was virtually in Earth orbit before it was destroyed. Furthermore, the Cube was facing a battle hardened Federation, which had been engaged in a long term war with the superpower known as the Dominion. At this point in time, it seems the Federation's fleet strength had increased significantly. More ships and heavier firepower, such as the Defiant, are evident and apparently available. Yet despite given significant time, seeming advances in firepower, increased available numbers of starships and battle experienced crews, the Federation was only able to heavily damage the outer hull of the Borg cube, while causing "fluxuations" in it's power grid. Their ability to destroy the Cube was only possible with a human individual who still had a residual connection to the hive mind, and was able to pinpoint exactly where to hit the cube, causing a chain reaction which resulted in the destruction of the Cube.
***
Well, I hope the information presented here is useful to both those who wish to see the Borg defeated(ie: "If you only knew the power of the Dark side..."), and to those who wish to see the Borg prevail against the Galactic Empire(ie: "Resistance if Futile...").
Tactical Cubes: 138 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Cubes: 1,184 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Spheres: 878 (ref: STVOY "Unimatrix Zero")
Total ships available: 2,200
The following is a summary/theory of Borg fleet strength relative to the Federation:
If 1 Cube matches 40 Federation ships (ref STTNG "Best of Both Worlds"), then 1,322 Cubes is equivalent to 52,880 Federation starships.
If 1 Cube matches 300 Federation ships (ref ST:FC, based upon non-canon sources), then 1,322 cubes is equivalent to 396,600 Federation starships.
If 1 Sphere matches 18 Federation ships (ref ST:VOY "Endgame"), then 878 Spheres is equivalent to 15,804 Federation ships.
Lower limit fleet strength: equivalent to 68,684 Federation starships
Upper limit fleet strength: equivalent to 412,404 Federation starships
While viewing these numbers, one should also consider the following:
-It's assumed a Tactical cube is equivalent to a typical cube, despite apparently having a superior armored outer hull. There may be other types of tactical vessels with similar armor, such as Spheres, Probes, etc. However, that's based upon pure speculation.
-The numbers used here were gathered from Star Trek Voyager "Unimatrix Zero". They were stated by the Borg Queen when she was finding craft with "defective" drones. At no point were these numbers stated or determined to be upper limits or even large percentages of the entire Borg fleet. Higher numbered craft could easily be possible. These numbers have merely established absolute lower limits to the Borg fleet size, and should be considered as such.
-Other vessel types have not been mentioned here, such as the Borg "Scout"(ref STTNG "I, Borg"), "Probe"(ref STVOY "Dark Frontier) and "Diamond"(ref STVOY "Dark Frontier"). There also may be other types not yet observed. Given these ships are much smaller than their Borg cube counterparts, it's not unrealistic to assume such craft would be available in significantly higher numbers. Since a Borg "Probe" is relatively similar in power to a Federation Intrepid class starship, they shouldn't be dismissed either.
-The Borg have recently been engaged in a massive war with Species 8472, which by all accounts cost them significant manpower and ships. In one battle alone, they lost over 300 cubes. This may indicate much higher numbers for the Borg fleet once existed, but was severely depleted during this conflict. However, one could also interpret the 300 ships lost as a significant portion of a fleet of roughly 2,200 "high end" vessels, hence the Borg's apparent corcern about imminent defeat.
-When saying "1 Cube matches 40 Federation ships", this implies forty Federation ships has equal footing against a Cube. As seen in "Best of Both Worlds", this is clearly not the case. And as also seen in Star Trek: First Contact, a single Cube was able to plow through the best defenses the Federation could rally against it, despite the Federation having approximately six years to prepare for such an encounter. The Cube in First Contact was virtually in Earth orbit before it was destroyed. Furthermore, the Cube was facing a battle hardened Federation, which had been engaged in a long term war with the superpower known as the Dominion. At this point in time, it seems the Federation's fleet strength had increased significantly. More ships and heavier firepower, such as the Defiant, are evident and apparently available. Yet despite given significant time, seeming advances in firepower, increased available numbers of starships and battle experienced crews, the Federation was only able to heavily damage the outer hull of the Borg cube, while causing "fluxuations" in it's power grid. Their ability to destroy the Cube was only possible with a human individual who still had a residual connection to the hive mind, and was able to pinpoint exactly where to hit the cube, causing a chain reaction which resulted in the destruction of the Cube.
***
Well, I hope the information presented here is useful to both those who wish to see the Borg defeated(ie: "If you only knew the power of the Dark side..."), and to those who wish to see the Borg prevail against the Galactic Empire(ie: "Resistance if Futile...").
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If you actually meant where, then here:beyond hope wrote:I don't see where you stated those "non-canon" sources for the 300:1 ratio you claim to get from First Contact.
"If 1 Cube matches 300 Federation ships (ref ST:FC, based upon non-canon sources), then 1,322 cubes is equivalent to 396,600 Federation starships."
If you meant why, I mentioned this because some claim around 300 Federation ships engaged the cube in First Contact. I specified this number was from non-canon sources.
What are you objecting to?
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As I recall, the 300 starships figure is from a novelization of First Contact. While I don't consider such sources reliable, I saw no reason to dismiss it entirely(starfleet has canonly been shown capable of mustering fleets of this size).beyond hope wrote:I simply inquired as to the source of the figure.
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And starfleet is also known to include fighters in its verbal ship counts which further reduces the reliability of this number even if it was specifically stated in the movie itself.Robert Walper wrote:As I recall, the 300 starships figure is from a novelization of First Contact. While I don't consider such sources reliable, I saw no reason to dismiss it entirely(starfleet has canonly been shown capable of mustering fleets of this size).beyond hope wrote:I simply inquired as to the source of the figure.
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Prove it counts fighters,runabouts yes,fighters and shuttles no.Darth Servo wrote:And starfleet is also known to include fighters in its verbal ship counts which further reduces the reliability of this number even if it was specifically stated in the movie itself.Robert Walper wrote:As I recall, the 300 starships figure is from a novelization of First Contact. While I don't consider such sources reliable, I saw no reason to dismiss it entirely(starfleet has canonly been shown capable of mustering fleets of this size).beyond hope wrote:I simply inquired as to the source of the figure.
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That proves nothing. However, the Klingon ability to delay the Dominion, despite being outnumbered by more than a dozen to one, shows that SF does not take into account ship class when computing ship counts. This kind of makes sense, but the sheer magnitude of the discrepency indicates that fighters or non-combat ships (either or) MUST have been included in the ship-counts, whereas the Klingons were only counting their front-line ships.Ingersoll wrote:They said there were 600 ships there in the deep space nine battle, and we saw fighters flying around.
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I believe Jemmie "fighters" were included in Dominion fleet counts, therefore people assume that Starfleet fighters are included in Federation counts.
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The Klingons weren't the only thing holding the Dominion at bay in fact Sisko and Ross comment that Damar and his resistance movement were buying the feds the time they needed.
Martok said he would 1500 ships to the border and the Romulan comments that hes outnumbered 20 to 1, Martok makes it clear that hes just trying to distract them to buy time again Sisko says the resistance is also keeping the Dominion busy.
We basically have 1500 Klingon ships playing for time with the Dominion fleets which are A) Having to deal with the cardassian insurrection B)Still having to defend their space C)Still comprised mainly of ships without the Breen weapon(only Breen ships have the weapon and the Breen aren't an empire on the F/K/R level) D)In any offesive would still have to deal with Fed/Romulan ships (with Klingon ships helping against the Breen) E)Would have to deal with planetary defenses etc F)Need an army to take and hold the lpanets they were about to gain.
Therefore the Dominion having far more ships is offset by a number of factors and no one expects the Klingons to be able to buy much time, thus your assumption is less than well founded.
Martok said he would 1500 ships to the border and the Romulan comments that hes outnumbered 20 to 1, Martok makes it clear that hes just trying to distract them to buy time again Sisko says the resistance is also keeping the Dominion busy.
We basically have 1500 Klingon ships playing for time with the Dominion fleets which are A) Having to deal with the cardassian insurrection B)Still having to defend their space C)Still comprised mainly of ships without the Breen weapon(only Breen ships have the weapon and the Breen aren't an empire on the F/K/R level) D)In any offesive would still have to deal with Fed/Romulan ships (with Klingon ships helping against the Breen) E)Would have to deal with planetary defenses etc F)Need an army to take and hold the lpanets they were about to gain.
Therefore the Dominion having far more ships is offset by a number of factors and no one expects the Klingons to be able to buy much time, thus your assumption is less than well founded.
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Howedar: Thats good enough except that the Jem Hadar "Fighters" aren't.
Someone posted a response to this (it wasrather good but I can't remember who posted it so I will lay out the bare bones here) and showed that the "Fighter" designation for the Jem Hadar bugs wasn't a Federation term and was actually a Romulan term (but was later adopted by the Alliance) with the federation calling them Warships, ships etc before this point.
Also the size of a Federation fighter compared to a bug ship should show why that line of reasoning isn't sound.
Someone posted a response to this (it wasrather good but I can't remember who posted it so I will lay out the bare bones here) and showed that the "Fighter" designation for the Jem Hadar bugs wasn't a Federation term and was actually a Romulan term (but was later adopted by the Alliance) with the federation calling them Warships, ships etc before this point.
Also the size of a Federation fighter compared to a bug ship should show why that line of reasoning isn't sound.
Re: Lower limit Borg fleet size and strength...
Small nitpick: this may no longer be the case. The composition of Starfleet and its technologies has changed since then, radically.Robert Walper wrote:If 1 Cube matches 40 Federation ships (ref STTNG "Best of Both Worlds")
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