Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Metahive]

Depending how advanced the state of affairs is supposed to be and how clever the imperial envoys were in making their case, your simulated compatriots might not know that yet or just not believe you. Lando is indeed a good example because he also had to get burned first before distrusting the Empire. RedImp proposed tasking Section 31 with collapsing the wormhole, but there too it depends on how much of a threat the Empire has presented itself.
Section 31 are not the Federation President's mindless lackies after all.

As I already said, I'll wait until the OP returns and clarifies several things, like just at what moment of the scenario the player is supposed to be given control (as said above, I presumed a "wormhole was just discovered" scenario). There's not much point to discuss this further otherwise.

[Metahive]

Well, going rogue might be indeed the solution (and very in-spirit with quite bunch of ST episodes and movies), if the Empire hasn't moved any sizable military assets through first. Again depends on circumstances not clarified by the OP. If I look at the follow up posts of the OP it looks actually more as if he was propsing a scenario of a "glorious last stand" of the Federation.

[Carinthium]

Oops- sorry about poorly thought-out O.P. My original intent was that both sides knew about the wormhole, and this was shortly after the Empire had made the decision that they want to conquer the Federation. The reason this was made was because the programmer had fudged the scenario to make sure it happened.

[Batman]

Bugger. Simply trying to close the wormhole somehow never occurred to me. So much for the World's Greatest Detective.

[Darth Tedious]

Has anyone considered that the Federation didn't close the Bajoran Wormhole because the Prophets would have been unimpressed with their doing so?

[Stofsk]

Has anyone considered that the Federation didn't close the Bajoran Wormhole because the Prophets would have been unimpressed with their doing so?

Well, yes. Also, the Federation didn't have the kind of intel on the Dominion that they would have on the Empire as per the OP's scenario. However, here's something that will rock your socks off:

They actually did try to collapse the wormhole when things became too dire, in the episode 'In Purgatory's Shadow'. Granted that was at least two and a half years after first contact with the Dominion, but that was when an invasion appeared most imminent. A Dominion invasion did not appear likely until that moment anyway. Sure the plan backfired, but that was because of a Changeling who had taken over Julian Bashir's identity months prior to it and I am p. sure was put there for the exact reason to sabotage this capability. Basically the crew of DS9 had the means to collapse the entrance to the wormhole at any point in those two and a half years. Hell in that fake simulation the Dominion subjected Sisko and his crew to in 'The Search', they collapsed the wormhole with a runabout's microtorpedo complement. That was a brute method which the station could have done at a moment's notice.

[Darth Tedious]

I was not aware of that! That certainly did rock my socks off. Thankyou.

Of course, closing the wormhole still leaves whatever Imperial forces are in the Milky Way to deal with. There's a distinct possibilty that they'll go rouge and become the galaxy's worst ever uber-space pirates. The Federation still has to push some shit uphill defending itself in this case...

[Stofsk]

Whatever expeditionary forces get sent through will be cut off from their logistical base. They can't re-arm, they can't refuel. They could go around terrorising the galaxy, but I actually don't like their chances of succeeding long-term. In a scenario where an Imperial captain of an expeditionary ship or squadron gets stranded, really what's he going to do? There is a tendency here to overstate Trek's technological disparity with the Empire, where it's made to look like Trek ships are firing fairy floss at their adversaries. They have less firepower but it's not like they use harsh language, and they also have more ships, people, and a logistic base - when those three are the only three advantages that actually matter in these versus debates. But what would really happen in your hypothetical scenario is someone, probably the Federation, would extend the hand of friendship, and if you're the Imperial captain would you go 'hmm stay here and get whatever I want to eat from a replicator plus a holodeck where I can get virtual blowjobs for free, or try to find a way back home and explain to my Evil Wizard boss who shoots lightning out of his fucking fingertips or the other guy who likes to choke subordinates who make mistakes how I messed up.'

[Rommel123]

They are so meek, they didn't blow the bajoran wormhole up right after meeting the Dominion either, remember?

No, but they had reason to believe they could win conventionally there. Starships could put up a good fight, mines could hold them off, secret agents could gather a fleet to plausibly decapitate them, etc.

Actually, they did try to blow up (close, actually) the wormhole when they realized how bad Dominion really is, but after Bashir the Changeling "intervened", blowing up wormhole became mission impossibile, and they had to mine it. And remember, Dominion's warp drive is even slower than Federation's one (warp 7 vs warp 9), so any fleet getting to Federation would arrive in late 25th century (if it starter outraight) or maybe even 26th century - which means that it would be outnumbered and outgunned. Supposing it survived the trip without getting itself annihilated and angering half of Alpha and Gamma quadrants - Vortas aren't really good diplomates, unless there is changeling pulling strings from behind the scenes.

Of course, closing the wormhole still leaves whatever Imperial forces are in the Milky Way to deal with. There's a distinct possibilty that they'll go rouge and become the galaxy's worst ever uber-space pirates. The Federation still has to push some shit uphill defending itself in this case...
I was not aware of that! That certainly did rock my socks off. Thankyou.

Of course, closing the wormhole still leaves whatever Imperial forces are in the Milky Way to deal with. There's a distinct possibilty that they'll go rouge and become the galaxy's worst ever uber-space pirates...

...or source of least dangerous live-fire excercises in galaxy, depending on which number for both factions you go with.

[Rommel123]

Plus, I am sure that anyone here with vague knowledge of history can remember how German invasion of USSR ended... Germany had better military - especially after 1942/43 when Tiger and Panther tanks started arriving, latter being technically best tank of World War II, despite the fact that it was more suited for collections than for mass-production required by military - T-34 was better than Panther in only two regards... it was more reliable, and it was suitable for mass production - althought T-34's were relatively low-quality tanks that had no hope in hell to compete against Panthers (or God forbid, Tigers) on 1-for-1 basis (indeed, even Joseph Stalin I and II tanks were having their asses handed to them when being engaged by Panthers or Tigers, and all were mostly issued to elite divisions) - they were able to win battles throught attrition. Soviets won the war by simply outproducing Germany, despite one-sided battles and engagements like those at Manov (8 tigers destroyed 30 soviet T-34/76 in under an hour, with no losses - only one Tiger was disabled before start of battle in ambush - its turret stuck, targeting lenses were broken and engine shut down, but noone in tank died - after battle, exactly 20 hits by Russian 76 mmm guns were counted on tank, all fired at distance of under 200 meters) or Leikumi (6 Tigers destroyed 47 JSII and 5 T-34/85 in two engagements).

[Darth Tedious]

Plus, I am sure that anyone here with vague knowledge of history can remember how German invasion of USSR ended... Germany had better military - especially after 1942/43 when Tiger and Panther tanks started arriving, latter being technically best tank of World War II, despite the fact that it was more suited for collections than for mass-production required by military - T-34 was better than Panther in only two regards... it was more reliable, and it was suitable for mass production - althought T-34's were relatively low-quality tanks that had no hope in hell to compete against Panthers (or God forbid, Tigers) on 1-for-1 basis (indeed, even Joseph Stalin I and II tanks were having their asses handed to them when being engaged by Panthers or Tigers, and all were mostly issued to elite divisions) - they were able to win battles throught attrition. Soviets won the war by simply outproducing Germany, despite one-sided battles and engagements like those at Manov (8 tigers destroyed 30 soviet T-34/76 in under an hour, with no losses - only one Tiger was disabled before start of battle in ambush - its turret stuck, targeting lenses were broken and engine shut down, but noone in tank died - after battle, exactly 20 hits by Russian 76 mmm guns were counted on tank, all fired at distance of under 200 meters) or Leikumi (6 Tigers destroyed 47 JSII and 5 T-34/85 in two engagements).

All true. But what does this have to do with the scenario at hand? Even a very small number of Imperial ships stranded in Federation space (say, a single sector fleet) could wreak some serious havok in the MW.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If we look at the OP again, then it includes the bit that whatever we do, we're also trying to impress the SD.net audience.

Well, closing the wormhole and fighting the remaining forces is indeed impressive, but is likely to result in extensive losses for your fleet and worlds along the way. It may even leave you weak or distracted enough for a surprise attack by one of the other alpha quadrant powers.

Here's my plan. It's not quite surrender straight off. Contact the Imperials, show them we are human, and explain (playing on the Empire's xenophobia) that we are a lost bunch of humanity (possibly the original bunch), that has been desperately fending off countless agressive alien races.

We ask the Empire for domestic aid to bring us in line with at least a mid-level Imperial world. Holonet stations throughout the Federation, Bacta supplies etc.

Then we ask the Empire for basic hyperdrive, hypermatter and turbolaser technology. Even stuff that is 10,000 years out of date for the Empire woud be enough to give the Federation a devastating advantage over it's adversaries.

Now comes the key part. We broadcast this news, this discovery of the Empire, as far and as wide as we can. In the hopes of provoking the Klingons, the Romulans, the Cardassians or whoever to launch an attack against us.

Then we appeal to the Empire for assistance in fending off this attack. Cue Imperial bitchslapping.

By now, our technology should have advanced to the point where we have functional hyperdrives and turbolasers aboard our starships. Basic, light, slow ones yes, but there nonetheless.

Once the enemy that attacked us is defeated, then we launch our strike and close the wormhole, and hunt down any remaining Imperial ships that do not surrender. In this situation, the Federation have a biger advantage than before. The firepower and speed disparity is now much smaller than it was before, and, because they were our "allies" we would know where their ships are.

Result, Imperial forces defeated, wormhole closed, at least one major alpha quadrant power defeated, Starfleet now more powerful than ever, and the Federation sovereignty maintained.

I dunno about you, but I think that's more impressive than closing the wormhole straight off. It brings much greater advantages for the utopian commie Federation.

[Metahive]

That plan would require the Empire to suffer from Psychlo-level epic retardation though. Somehow I can't imagine Palpatine falling for such a ploy. And who says they won't abuse that treaty of mutual support to use the Federation as cannon fodder like the Dominion eventually did with Cardassia?

[Eternal_Freedom]

That plan would require the Empire to suffer from Psychlo-level epic retardation though. Somehow I can't imagine Palpatine falling for such a ploy. And who says they won't abuse that treaty of mutual support to use the Federation as cannon fodder like the Dominion eventually did with Cardassia?

True, but the Empire (specifically the Emperor) have demonstrated epic retardation before, a la ROTJ. SO it's not imposible. Plus I prefer that to "senselss bloodbath last stand" idea. At any rate, the OP asked for something impressive. My plan, if it works, is impressive.

And incidentally, why would the Empire bother using the Federation as cannon fodder against the dominion when the Dominion have no real means of resisting an all-out Imperial assault?

The Dominion used the Cardassians as cannon fodder because the Federation would effectively resist the Dominion. Not so with the Empire.

[Metahive]

The only real flaw Palpatine himself comitted in ROTJ was to be personally present at Endor. The real epic retard of that battle was the guy in the bunker who fell for Han's little false flag operation.

Why would the Empire use the Federation as cannon fodder? Simple, to pacify the ST galaxy while saving their own assets at the same time. Once the Federation has beaten everyone else it's too exhausted to resist any more imperial intrusions into their sovereignty. A tried and true method used here on Earth since the days of the Peloponnesian War.

[Rommel123]

Plus, I am sure that anyone here with vague knowledge of history can remember how German invasion of USSR ended... Germany had better military - especially after 1942/43 when Tiger and Panther tanks started arriving, latter being technically best tank of World War II, despite the fact that it was more suited for collections than for mass-production required by military - T-34 was better than Panther in only two regards... it was more reliable, and it was suitable for mass production - althought T-34's were relatively low-quality tanks that had no hope in hell to compete against Panthers (or God forbid, Tigers) on 1-for-1 basis (indeed, even Joseph Stalin I and II tanks were having their asses handed to them when being engaged by Panthers or Tigers, and all were mostly issued to elite divisions) - they were able to win battles throught attrition. Soviets won the war by simply outproducing Germany, despite one-sided battles and engagements like those at Manov (8 tigers destroyed 30 soviet T-34/76 in under an hour, with no losses - only one Tiger was disabled before start of battle in ambush - its turret stuck, targeting lenses were broken and engine shut down, but noone in tank died - after battle, exactly 20 hits by Russian 76 mmm guns were counted on tank, all fired at distance of under 200 meters) or Leikumi (6 Tigers destroyed 47 JSII and 5 T-34/85 in two engagements).

All true. But what does this have to do with the scenario at hand? Even a very small number of Imperial ships stranded in Federation space (say, a single sector fleet) could wreak some serious havok in the MW.

That all depends on firepower calculations you are using. But using locally-accepted calculations would simply mean to try to get Imperial forces chasing ghosts around Alpha Quadrant (or maybe informing them about Borg) while you prepare your fleet - better weapons, getting allies and so on. Since getting more power from M/AM powerplant is simply matter of using denser reactants, it shouldn't be too hard to switch to ultra-dense deuterium or something similar which could give TT-range firepower within few months - why it wasn't already done eludes me. Althought, as I already explained, difference between low and high ends for firepower of both Star Trek and Star Wars is astounding - 6 to 9 orders of magnitude, so it can go both ways.

[Batman]

Whoa, don't be silly. Getting more power out of a powerplant is quite difficult. Consider one big question: say you crank up the power. How will you keep the plant from melting itself?

Not to mention that exact same problem applies to every system you try to feed the power to. Phasers, shield generators, hell the freaking EPS grid to begin with, all of which are designed with a specific maximum load. Unlike the original Galaxy Warp core there seems to have been a competent engineer somewhere in the design process as there seems to be a bit of a safety margin (they routinely overpower systems by 20% or so with no ill effects) but there's no way you're getting orders of magnitude more firepower, or thrust, or shield capacity without effectively designing and building a completely new ship.

Rommel123, has it ever occurred to you the reason the Feds don't built those uber powerful Warp cores of yours is because they simply don't have the technology? Hell they had trouble making the Galaxy's Warp core safe as it is.

[Darth Tedious]

Never mind getting the power levels OVER 9000!, the Imperials are still going to have an insurmountable speed advantage no matter what you do. Even the quantum slipstream drive wasn't as fast as a hyperdrive.

[Batman]

Never mind getting the power levels OVER 9000!, the Imperials are still going to have an insurmountable speed advantage no matter what you do. Even the quantum slipstream drive wasn't as fast as a hyperdrive.

Nonsense. Since you can obviously increase Warp core power output arbitrarily by using denser fuels you can naturally increase Warp speeds by the same margin.
Which wouldn't suffice even if it worked, which it wouldn't, for the reasons D13 and I mentioned, but given the 'locally accepted calculations' comment and Rommel123 thinking the WW2 Wehrmacht vs Russians situation is even remotely comparable to Trek vs Wars, and his semiwhine about numbers on both sides being inconsistent, I wouldn't be much surprised if he/she/it tried attacking the canon numbers next.

[Batman]

I wonder what's so hot about infinite speed to begin with. Near infinite speed can be pretty awesome, but truly infinite speed is useless, because there's no way to stop. Sure, you can go anywhere in no time at all, but you can never stay there.

[Darth Tedious]

Ludicrous speed would probably be sufficient. And even then you tend to overshoot things by a couple of weeks...

But seriously, besides hitting warp factor 10 and turning into a newt, isn't there some kind of limit to warp speed (hence the necessity of transwarp) ?
Or would warp 9.9999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999999 (or thereabouts) be about equivalant to hyperdrive?

[Batman]

If Warp could go that fast they'd never have bothered with Transwarp to begin with, I think.
Of course, for all we know, there's no functional differences between Transwarp and conventional Warp to begin with, so for all we know Transwarp is just another term for 'really fast Warp'. Excelsior's nacelles looked exactly the same in TSFS (where she supposededly had Transwarp) and TUC (where, presumably, she used completely ordinary Warp drive).

[Rommel123]

Whoa, don't be silly. Getting more power out of a powerplant is quite difficult. Consider one big question: say you crank up the power. How will you keep the plant from melting itself?

Well, they do use forcefields to do exactly that - I don't think that reaction chamber is made out of some exotic material, and lowest estimates for Galaxy-class warp core's energy production are in high kilotons to medium megatons, which I don't think any metal can withstand, Trek or real-life. So, theoretically, it should be possible to increase energy output by using denser reactants. Transfering and using all that energy is another question, as is possible leakage.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Using denser reactants just means you're increasing fuel consumption without making th chamber bigger. The basic energy per unit mass will be the same as before, just this time you'll burn the fuel faster.

Wouldn't a more sensible idea be to have the starship mount multiple warp cores? That way, one can power engines whilst the other powers weapons. Or something like that.

[Thanas]

Why? That would only mean multiple engine rooms and take up more space...and add more places that need special armor as to not make the ship go boom at the slightest impact.

Also, bigger reactors usually lead to proportionally higher returns.