Imperial Fleet VS Enterprise-D's from the Quantum Fissure

[darthy]

There's no evidence that particular quantum reality exists and even if it does, that doesn't mean that it ever made an appearance from the quantum fissure. I could just say there's another enterprise that has the cure for the degeneration T-Cell which spreads it all over using the same method.

This is what you are doing

Everyone's been doing that. Let's say there was a versus scenario like "wookie army vs wookie army with guns". It's possible that the wookie army without guns would win and people could come up with all sorts of elaborate ways for them to win i'm sure. That's kinda what people are doing with the imperial fleet here. But the wookie army with guns has more of an advantage so more probable to win. So we say the wookie army with guns wins in that case. The enterprise's in this case has strength in numbers. If the imperial fleet engages the enterprises then the enterprises are more likely to come out ahead in the end. So we say the enterprise's win in that case.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Again, though, you have the question of why the Imperials would even bother to fight. They don't have to open fire just because you say so darthy. Likewise, they can escape to hyperspace, simply by pointing their ships away from the fissure and jumping. Revert to realspace after a few seconds, so you are well clear, then plot a more accurate course to wherever you're going. Simple.

[Serafina]

The enterprise's in this case has strength in numbers. If the imperial fleet engages the enterprises then the enterprises are more likely to come out ahead in the end. So we say the enterprise's win in that case.

I...i honestly can't come up with ANYTHING to mock this stupidity. You've bested me darthy, your stupidity is superior to my intellect, wit and humor.

Eh, whatever, there are still flaws i can point out:

Yes, you have strenght in numbers. However, as we pointed out (and you ignored it), you can NOT utilize those numers - you are incapable of concentrating your fire due to low range.
Every Star Destroyer will only have to engage a small number of Enterprises (about 50 is a good estimate). Their shields would easily be capable of withstanding the damage output of several hundred Galaxy-class starhips for a looong time, even if we are generous. Meanwhile, a single hit from a medium Turbolaser will completely destroy a Galaxy-class starship, and light Turbolasers pose a veritable threat to them.
Well, Star Destroyers have dozens of those guns. They have a good rate of fire with them. It will take less than 10 seconds to take out the Enterprises that are curretly attacking the Star Destroyer.
A SINGLE Star Destroyer could wipe out the whole 285.000 Enterprises in about 15 hours, assuming the gunners don't take a coffee break, the other Enterprises don't get clogged up in the wreckage and that they won't decide "fuck this, i'm not getting slaughtered" and run. If they are up against a whole fleet, and if they use the TIE-fighters and bombers every Star Destroyer is carrying, that fight will be over in a matter of minutes. Result: Target practice medals for everyone! (except your side, because they are all dead).

You are constantly ignoring morale. The Enterprises are cooperating because YOU SAY SO, and they are fighting their way trough massive casualties because YOU SAY SO.
It's like this: Suppose we take a million people from all over the world randomly. We drop them onto a nice, flat plain with no importance whatsoever. We arm them with sticks and rocks. And then we put them up against a company of tanks and armored vehicles (we'll discard their speed advantage for now). In your scenario, all those people will decide to charge the armored vehicles, despite getting slaughtered by the hundreds and thousands. No one will run away, despite not having a reason to stand and fight. They will all act in an organized fashion, dspite no chain of command and no one having the experience in directing so many ships. And in this case, they might actually win because the vehicles could run out of ammo first, which is not a problem for SW-ships (they can get going for hour-long engaments with ease).


Even if we grant you all that - perfect morale, perfect coordination - despite it being utterly ludicrous - the Empire still wins due to superior firepower.

[Rommel123]

even if we are generous.

In what way? You know (or at least should know) that figures for both universes go from <1 kt to >1 TT. It all depends on what someone believes is right. And that is basically why this debate probably won't end - there is enough material on both sides to reinforce whatever person believes is right. Damn, it sometimes seems to me that whole STvsSW discussion is not about determining who will win, but about defending pre-determined outcomes.

[Serafina]

even if we are generous.

In what way? You know (or at least should know) that figures for both universes go from <1 kt to >1 TT. It all depends on what someone believes is right. And that is basically why this debate probably won't end - there is enough material on both sides to reinforce whatever person believes is right. Damn, it sometimes seems to me that whole STvsSW discussion is not about determining who will win, but about defending pre-determined outcomes.

*yawn*
If we look at the majority of the evidence, rather than extreme (and often ambiguous) outliers, your argument falls apart. If you actually do this, then you'll get very clear figures which have settled the debate a long time ago.

[Batman]

Pick a direction. Hyperdrive away. If they're feeling paranoid, take a few minutes to plot a course where they know they won't run into anything. It's not like the E-Ds can do something about it.

Bzzzt. Wrong. You blithely assuming they are is NOT sufficient reason to assume so. The Imperials can't go hyperdrive-why, exactly?

Here's how hyperspace works shithead
http://img850.imageshack.us/img850/3716/hyperspace.jpg

Hey! A picture of a completely unsourced text fragment that has absolutely no bearing on the topic even if we assume it to be correct! Yep, that's a brilliant way to support your point.

It's kinda hard to make it to light speed just to get into hyperspace with all these ships around them.

Oh, now they're surrounded for some hitherto unstated reason. Not that it makes much of a difference-the vast majority of those ships is going to cease to exist a minute into the engagement, because not only are all those E-Ds hopelessly outgunned by anything Blockade Runner and up, but they're initially outnumbered. Blow away all the E-Ds in any direction of your chosing, hyper away.

If they collided with one of the enterprise's while in hyperspace they'd be destroyed by the mass shadow. I think they have shields to protect the ship from interstellar dust while in hyperspace but that's about it, certainly not starships.

Says you. Wars ships steer away from running into stellarbodies. You know, comets, moons, planets, stars, that kind of thing.
Show me a single incident of them having trouble with the mass shadow of a 4.5 million ton object.

The first 285,000 E-Ds didn't appear inside each other so there's bound to be plenty of time for the Imperials to just leave.

and you're basing that on what? because the hundred or so visible ships weren't? With something as big as the death star, it's kinda hard to make a guarantee like that.

If they did, there no longer are 285,000 E-Ds So basically you just admitted that the only Big Es we know to be present are the ones we see onscreen. A pushover for a single ISD.

Which is what happened in Parallels WRT the E-Ds. Oh wait.

Not sure what you're saying here but remember data said that the rate of appearances would be increasing at an exponential rate. If they blasted their way through ships more ships would just fill up the blasted area.

And guess what-the visuals completely failed to support that, there were plenty of gaps between the visible E-Ds throughout the entire sequence. So pick a direction, any direction, blow away the Es in the way (assuming they even need to do that, see above) and hyper out.

Feel free to show me a canon way other than that to do so.

Feel free to tell me how that means the fissure cannot be sealed some other way.

I don't have to prove a negative. The dialogue (you know, this thing you love so much you insist its true even when 100% of available evidence says it's wrong, or at the very least inaccurate) says that was the only way to seal the fissure.

And that is another bold-faced lie. The quantum fissures were happening all across the various realities, which was the whole point of the episode.
But you know what? I conceed they happened in another 'quantum reality'. Do you know what that means? I get to ignore it because it's never happened in canon Star Trek. The number of E-Ds you get to throw at the Imperial Fleet is one.

it's still the enterprise though The enterprise from the tv show we know was in the crowd of enterprise's since it shared worfs quantum signature. It's part of canon that these quantum realities exist and are shown in one episode. Since you're ignoring it, I'll take that as a concession that the imperial fleet loses this one.

So it didn't happen in another quantum reality then? You should really make up your mind. Either it did happen in canon Star Trek, in which case the canon Federation has to deal with the refugees, or it didn't, in which case the Empire has to deal with one Enterprise D.

[Rommel123]

*yawn*
If we look at the majority of the evidence, rather than extreme (and often ambiguous) outliers, your argument falls apart. If you actually do this, then you'll get very clear figures which have settled the debate a long time ago.

You sad "even if we are generous". And using majority is not "being generous", it is "being objective".

[Darth Tedious]

*yawn*
If we look at the majority of the evidence, rather than extreme (and often ambiguous) outliers, your argument falls apart. If you actually do this, then you'll get very clear figures which have settled the debate a long time ago.

You sad "even if we are generous". And using majority is not "being generous", it is "being objective".

True, but is it reasonable to expect objectivity from fanboys in Vs debates? Not everyone is clear and level-headed about this stuff...

[Serafina]

*yawn*
If we look at the majority of the evidence, rather than extreme (and often ambiguous) outliers, your argument falls apart. If you actually do this, then you'll get very clear figures which have settled the debate a long time ago.

You sad "even if we are generous". And using majority is not "being generous", it is "being objective".

With "being generous" i meant "let's take the lower-end figures from the main site". Which might not be as objective, but that's why it's called being generous.

[tremors]

it looks like lots of star trek ships couldn't target the star wars ships with their phasers all at once but how about with their photon torpedoes?

[HMS Sophia]

it looks like lots of star trek ships couldn't target the star wars ships with their phasers all at once but how about with their photon torpedoes?

You'd still have similar problems... Has an ST ship ever targeted something it can't see?

[EnterpriseSovereign]

You still have the issue of ST ships not all being able to fight right away because only the ones with a clear line of fire to the Imperials will be able to engage.

[bilateralrope]

You still have the issue of ST ships not all being able to fight right away because only the ones with a clear line of fire to the Imperials will be able to engage.

Don't forget the ships that will be worried that another Enterprise will appear right in front of one of their photon torpedo. Or the ships that fire anyway, hit an Enterprise that wasn't there when they fired, and are unlucky enough to hit an Enterprise that will return fire before understanding anything beyond "you shot me".

[Enigma]

You still have the issue of ST ships not all being able to fight right away because only the ones with a clear line of fire to the Imperials will be able to engage.

Don't forget the ships that will be worried that another Enterprise will appear right in front of one of their photon torpedo. Or the ships that fire anyway, hit an Enterprise that wasn't there when they fired, and are unlucky enough to hit an Enterprise that will return fire before understanding anything beyond "you shot me".

Or an Enterprise appearing in the exact spot as the torp passes by, blowing the ship up from the inside.