Swap firepower, shielding, and armor levels.

[TheHammer]

Suppose accepted firepower, shielding, and armor levels were swapped between the Trek-verse and the Wars-verse while construction technology, speed, and infrastructure kept the same. Would the Federation have a chance to resist an invasion? Or is it still a logistics game where they will eventually succumb to superior numbers? Assume third parties are kept out of the war via Q.

[Big Phil]

Don't be absurd. You can't simply swap firepower/shields/armor without all of the associated technology, which is also what gives Wars its superior construction technology and infrastructure.

Besides, given that a single medium-sized wars ship can take out virtually the whole of the Trek galaxy, this ridiculous scenario simply results in a curb stomp of Imperial forces whenever they engage Federation forces, with the Federation completely unable to retaliate.

[Sela]

@TheHammer:

Your opening post - as Sanchez points out - is very poorly thought out. Since Trek technology, construction, materials, and infrastructure remain what they are, they will be incapable of repairing, refuelling, rebuilding, or constructing new Wars-style weaponry, armors and shielding. If you were to "plug" a heavy-duty TL bank into a galaxy-class vessel, the MOST LIKELY scenario is that nothing would happen. This is not the Trek-world where Romulan cloaking devices can magically be plugged into the ship in under an hour and be expected to function perfectly well. At best, it would take - say - 6 months for the Federation to just figure out how to deal with and use the Wars technology. And that's handwaving away the issue with whether or not they even could generate the energy systems to power it.


For the Empire, on the other hand, they'd wake up to find all their ships scuttled and replaced with the equivalent of pea-shooters of no consequence. Rather than taking the time and energy to figure out how to use the inferior Federation weaponry, they could simply make a new fleet using their vastly superior construction technology, *replace* said missing weapons, and curbstomp the Federation. It may take some time to rebuild a fleet . . . but nothing incomprehensible. After all, look how quickly they rebuilt the Death Star II.

[Simon_Jester]

Well, it depends on the margin of superiority. If you can launch strategic offensives that paralyze their production and they can't fight back to any real effect, they're in trouble. Mobility is a big issue; if they're much slower than you, they can't concentrate fleets faster than you can blow apart their supply train and their concentrations, can't move to reinforce threatened areas, or to threaten a target faster than you can shift reinforcements to cover it.

What I'd really like to see would be some kind of forced scaling that makes it a contest between the two social systems- which breeds better men and better tacticians, the Federation or the Empire? But that dance has been done before on this subforum and it wound up indecisive and angry.

[Connor MacLeod]

Don't be absurd. You can't simply swap firepower/shields/armor without all of the associated technology, which is also what gives Wars its superior construction technology and infrastructure.

You actually could switch certain things (on the basis of say, comparing power generation) but the problems will stem from predicting the consequences of that switch and how you do it. (EG its not impossible, it just makes things difficult and complicated and far more speculative.) For example, reducing power generation does not *neccessarily* kill firepower - they can still have some measure of the power storage and handling capability, but it would inflict a tremendous recharge rate on the weapons (or shields.) Acceleration would go down with power generation, but armor or fuel supply wouldn't neccesarily (they either accept the reduced acceleration, or they can compensate by reducing mass, which could mean fuel and armor.) Then again if power generation is less they might be able to pull higher accel via other ways (lower exhaust velocity and higher propellant mass, for example.)

It isn't all one way either, even if the "capacities" for the tech switch as well. If Star Trek gets SW level power transfer and capacitors as well as power generation, they also need neutrino radiators. But all that "super weapons" will invariably impose some restrictions. They have to redesign their weapons to handle the increased recoil (which may or may not mean they cna use strips. They might have to use something like a spinal mount or fixed axis phaser) They can still use warp fields to boost their speeds, but they won't neccesarily but recoil will limit the viability of that too (they have to watch acceleration tolerances on their ship, and the stuff inside it.) All this energy, even if they can get rid of it via neutrinos, is going to make them more detectable when they use it (lots of universes, including trek, can detect neutrinos). And using it at "max" is going to impose the same fuel endurance limits SW invariably faces (good luck getting a few hours performance at top speed.) That's going to change their logistical concerns quite a bit as well.

On the other hand, I'm not sure you can just say "speed remains constant" either by that same logic. If you massively up the reactor output and power transfer systems (and those same systems can handle it for weapons and shields) then it invariably is going to affect the performance of the systems you supposeldy DIDN'T increase, whether you intend that or not. You can't magically fiat "Trek can't figure out how to make warp drives faster" when they have a greater level of power to draw on. So the speed issue could be changed regardless of what the OP intends.

What's more, firepower and defense, while important, aren't neccesarily the 'game winners" people make them out to be. SW still has a prodigious industrial capacity, and even if you restricted them to modern nuclear weapons, megawatt lasers and miligee accelerations based on power output, there are still tons of ways they can gain a victory. A more costly victory perhaps, but still victory. My favorite for example is Sea Skimmer's "Dump billions of tons of conventional frag munitions on a planet" tactic. You don't even need an ISD to do that.

To have a more "balanced" debate you have to address some of the more fundamental issues which AREN'T concerned so much with THA NUMBARS. EG you have to make it so the point of the debate is not a "all out to the death" style match that most vs end up being, where authorial fiat dictates that one side or the other must wipe them out. It's rather implausible and invariably leads to the ridiculous fanboyism that destroys any value these debates have.

[TheHammer]

Don't be absurd. You can't simply swap firepower/shields/armor without all of the associated technology, which is also what gives Wars its superior construction technology and infrastructure.

I expected someone would say something like that. I'm aware that it's not a realistic scenario. Merely wondering if the firepower and shielding advantage were swapped if it would be enough to prevent an invasion.

[Stofsk]

To prevent an invasion? You mean SW invading ST? Or the reverse?

Whoever has the faster ships can dictate the battlefield. That has always been one of the key advantages SW has over ST in this debate (the other two being their 1000 to 1 if not more numerical advantage and greater industrial capacity); a fleet of Star Destroyers could hyper in to a planet, take it out, then hyper away before the ST defenders could do anything about it. Which left the ST side with the unenviable position of only being able to defend a handful of planets with their fleets, which basically gives all the control to the Imperials who can dictate the course of the invasion.

If you suddenly swapped to the Trek side the faster ships and also gave them the better weapons and defences, things become interesting. The SW side still has the numerical and industrial advantage, but they don't have the strategic mobility they used to have. Worse, their ships now aren't as powerful, which means that their numbers aren't as important as they once were. I'd be inclined to think there wouldn't be an Imperial invasion of the ST galaxy under this scenario. However I don't think a ST invasion of the SW galaxy can succeed at all, given they still are outnumbered quite considerably. At best a stalemate, unless the ST side cranks out the ships like there's no tomorrow (which is easier said than done of course). Probably the most likely result would be a cold war between the two galaxies.

Other posters have already commented on the technical side of this scenario, and why it's a bit silly.

[Big Phil]

Don't be absurd. You can't simply swap firepower/shields/armor without all of the associated technology, which is also what gives Wars its superior construction technology and infrastructure.

I expected someone would say something like that. I'm aware that it's not a realistic scenario. Merely wondering if the firepower and shielding advantage were swapped if it would be enough to prevent an invasion.

If you suddenly give Trek ships Wars-level firepower, you could conceivably park a handful of runabouts around every Federation planet, and they would be able to destroy ANY attacking Imperial force. The problem is, what happens if 500 Imperial warships drop out of orbit and start plastering Vulcan, which is defended by only a half dozen runabouts? First of all, the runabouts (which now have Wars level shields and firepower) are unharmed, they manage to destroy several score ISD's before the Imperials retreat, however... Vulcan has seen most of its major cities and its infrastructure destroyed.

Sure, the Trek ships destroyed much (perhaps even all) of the attacking fleet, but the Imperials could easily afford the losses while still annihilating the Federation's infrastructure, leaving the Federation fucked in the end. In other words, in your scenario, the Federation could win all of the battles and still lose the war, simply because of the Empire's speed advantage.

[Connor MacLeod]

The shit like Weapons, armor, and firepower only matter if you think it would onyl be fought as a conventional war, with ship to ship battles and maybe some ground combat and nothing else. But if the Federation (or other Star Trek groups like the Borg) did end up being deemed as sufficient threat to harm or challenge the Empire, the Empire would probably have little compunction destroying them. (Palpy welcomes a potential external threat, but not if it threatens his own existence or his ambitions)

In that case all SW really needs is its ludicrous industrial advantages (hell you can concede on the "decades" bit fro the DS1, downsize it from the 160 km size, and still have the ludicrous industry give a tremendous advantage.) build a bunch of disposable, hyperdrive equipped robot ramships or flying bombs outfitted with nukes. Or disposable bombardment platforms outfitted with billions of tons of conventional munitions. all you need then is to know where to aim them at (which SW has various ways to acquire, but probe droids probably are the best bet) whereupon you throw them at planets, starbases, shipyards, etc. in whatever numbers are needed to defeat the FEderation. you don't even need 100% effectiveness (complete casualties, total destruction of bases or shipyards, whatever.)

Hell you don't even need large territory or *fast* FTL given that sort of tactic. The only way to counter it is to basically dismiss the industrial advantage's existence (which some Trekkies *do* try to do) or to give Trek something similar. Which basically means MAD and renders the entire debate pretty pointless, since its no longer really "Trek" is generally depicted. What's more, it pretty much is all about one side "winning" for some reason, rather than actual discussion.

[darth_timon]

Suppose accepted firepower, shielding, and armor levels were swapped between the Trek-verse and the Wars-verse while construction technology, speed, and infrastructure kept the same. Would the Federation have a chance to resist an invasion? Or is it still a logistics game where they will eventually succumb to superior numbers? Assume third parties are kept out of the war via Q.

I think others have already said it, but if the Empire keeps it's speed and industry in place they can simply use their stragetic and numerical advantages to crush the Federation anyway- they'd suffer a lot more casualties, but the Federation's casualties would still be total.

[Simon_Jester]

Personally, I'm suspicious of any argument which relies on the Empire breaking out mass production to do things it never did historically. It feels too much like "Federation pulls out Genesis device and razes worlds with it:" it's a contrivance.

If we don't see the Empire ever mass producing stuff on that scale, is it because all the writers are clueless, or because there are hidden factors we're not seeing? Which explanation is more consistent with the analysis style that got us to the conclusion that the Empire is such an industrial juggernaut in the first place?

[Darth Tedious]

Personally, I'm suspicious of any argument which relies on the Empire breaking out mass production to do things it never did historically. It feels too much like "Federation pulls out Genesis device and razes worlds with it:" it's a contrivance.

If we don't see the Empire ever mass producing stuff on that scale, is it because all the writers are clueless, or because there are hidden factors we're not seeing? Which explanation is more consistent with the analysis style that got us to the conclusion that the Empire is such an industrial juggernaut in the first place?

What scale of mass production is needed? The Empire already has a fuck-off-HUGE numerical advantage. The level of production they maintain on a regular basis would be fine and dandy.
Given that the ISD was first produced at the end of the Clone Wars, to have 25,000 of them by 4ABY, Kuat Drive Yards would have been averaging almost 3 new ships off the production line per day! And that's only counting ISDs produced by KDY, never mind every other ship class produced by them (and every other company in the GFFA working for the Empire), and feats like the DSII (60% in 6 months). By what stretch of the imagination is the Empire not an industrial powerhouse?
It's complete bullshit to say that the Empire doesn't have an insane industrial edge over the Federation...

[darth_timon]

Personally, I'm suspicious of any argument which relies on the Empire breaking out mass production to do things it never did historically. It feels too much like "Federation pulls out Genesis device and razes worlds with it:" it's a contrivance.

If we don't see the Empire ever mass producing stuff on that scale, is it because all the writers are clueless, or because there are hidden factors we're not seeing? Which explanation is more consistent with the analysis style that got us to the conclusion that the Empire is such an industrial juggernaut in the first place?

What scale of mass production is needed? The Empire already has a fuck-off-HUGE numerical advantage. The level of production they maintain on a regular basis would be fine and dandy.
Given that the ISD was first produced at the end of the Clone Wars, to have 25,000 of them by 4ABY, Kuat Drive Yards would have been averaging almost 3 new ships off the production line per day! And that's only counting ISDs produced by KDY, never mind every other ship class produced by them (and every other company in the GFFA working for the Empire), and feats like the DSII (60% in 6 months). By what stretch of the imagination is the Empire not an industrial powerhouse?
It's complete bullshit to say that the Empire doesn't have an insane industrial edge over the Federation...

And it's worth mentioning that this is the Empire without going into full-scale production of ships and weapons- imagine what they could do if they declared they were on a war-footing and recruited soldiers and construction crews the way countries did in WWII.

[Connor MacLeod]

Personally, I'm suspicious of any argument which relies on the Empire breaking out mass production to do things it never did historically. It feels too much like "Federation pulls out Genesis device and razes worlds with it:" it's a contrivance.

That's because it is. It's entire point is basically as a counter to the sort of fanboy arguments that get pulled out for insta-wins on the Trek side, so I don't think its meant to be internally consistent or make sense.

If we don't see the Empire ever mass producing stuff on that scale, is it because all the writers are clueless, or because there are hidden factors we're not seeing? Which explanation is more consistent with the analysis style that got us to the conclusion that the Empire is such an industrial juggernaut in the first place?

We aren't. But the possibility of "industrial juggernaut" is sufficient enough, it just will have limits on its use. They won't use it unless they're facing a dire situation - think of the World Devastators superweapon - so is this. The likely reason they don't use is is because a.) once the tech is out of the bag it'd be hard to put back, b.) it involves considerable cost and resource investment, which are things that could be put to better use elswhere (EG greed and corruption) c.) it would require a massively upscaled logistical base than what may exist, which is even more costly.)

Hell, the advantage doesn't even lie in the production rate or scope necccesarily. They can poor that many resources into something that does not put a significant drain on their economy, they can use a fraction of that to maintain a war of attrition by building at existing shipyards for however long they need to. millison or billions of ISDs won't matter much if they're spread out over a few years or a few decades. It would swamp the Federation either way if they were inclined or driven into using that capability to begin with.