Cap ships in Star Trek

[DarkStar]

Hhahahah the Trade Federation battleship incident is an example of SW inaccuracy?!

Where they were aiming to capture- and did the following:

- took out the shield generator instead of blowing the whole ship to smithereens

Ah, so I guess they were obviously trying to confuse the Royal Yacht pilots (into thinking they weren't going for the shield generator) by spraying weapons fire all around the ship? Riiight. Hitting the ship at all was a lucky shot. As I recall, they only actually hit the ship twice.

- blasted off every astromech droid attempting to repair the shield generator- consistently; except for R2 of course who managed to get the shields back on in time before the trade fed gunners blew him off too.

And your evidence that they were aiming for the droids, as opposed to the droids being unlucky hull extensions that happened to get hit by the spray of weapons fire, is forthcoming?

15m long X-Wing hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

ergo

600m long Enterprise-E hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

Given the maneuverability of the ship, the superior ranges of Trek weapons, and the simple fact that, as I point out here:
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html
. . . a Star Destroyer at 54km will be the apparent size of the TIE fighter at 200 meters, a Star Destroyer gunner is going to have an awfully hard time, whether against the slender 700 meter E-E, or the nimble 120m long Defiant, and especially with your big guns.

[DarkStar]

Ummm.... If you watch RotJ, there are other shots that do damage before the bolt reaches the target. The scene in which the Nebulon B frigate (since you don't accept non-canon stuff, the Medical frigate) is engaging the Star Destroyer, there are two shots with explosions before the bolt hits.

1. I don't mind ship class designations being used. It prevents confusion, especially with the 974,000 different ship classes of the Federation.

2. I have the scene you refer to digitized from somewhere (I've forgotten) as ROTJslow.avi, and I don't see any explosions occurring before the bolt hits.

In TPM, I know of two other incidents in which this is observed. One is when the Naboo forces in Theed open fire on the Battle Droids there, and one is in the Gungan battle. If you watch closely, you will see evidence of damage before the bolt actually hits.

Ah, so it's rather blaster-specific, then.

I also like how, when you acknowledge that we have seen this in canon visuals, you ignore it because we have only seen it in a few.

Well, the vast majority of shots fired do not show it, so what do you expect me to say?

[Ender]

Lemme see if I get this straight:

You are trying to use the fact that a normal human missed against a guy who can see into the future, and thus dodge before the shot is fired, as proof of bad accuracy?

Oh wait, Wars humans aren't normal Homo Sapiens according to you. Sorry, my bad.

[thecreech]

Remember... Jango was going up against a smaller fighter. it was more maneuverable, they were in an asteriod field and he was trying to hit a jedi knight. i would say that jango followed him pretty well

[Master of Ossus]

Ummm... It is pretty blaster specific if you ignore my examples of TL fire dealing damage before the actual visible beam gets there.

Incidentally, does anyone think that all of the explosions seen the background of RotJ and TPM were invisible portion shots exploding? They seem much like the flak bursts from AotC, RotJ, ESB, and TPM, except that they seem to have no visible shots traveling towards them. I'm not really proposing this as a debate theory, but I think it might be possible since many of the explosions have no apparent causes.

[Isolder74]

In Star Trek the capitol ships of the federation are expected to do everything, for almost every other power its war pure and simple.

All Imperial ship are warships though a Star Destroyer could also qualify as a heavy Troop transport, and a light Fleet repair dock its primary role is obvious

[Lord of the Farce]

They did want to hit the ship, did they not?

Do you think it's easier to miss while shoot to kill, or shoot to cripple but definately not kill?

No, you don't understand. They missed wide. Not even the same ballpark.

Paraphrased "They're too small for our turbolasers". There was also the matter of jamming.

Whatever, dude.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWasterosmack.html

Gee, that's strange, those shots that were already fired when Obi-Wan's fighter when he turned look like they went under by only a couple of meters down and to the side.

It was the first time shots had been fired that could hope to hit the hull.

Of course, let's just assume that despite what we can see of the scattering of Slave 1's shots, that not even a single shot came close to hitting the Jedi Fighter.

Aim the guns dead-forward, put a crosshair on the cockpit window, and don't shoot when there's a friendly behind the target. Was this concept lost over the 25,000 years of galactic civilization?

Stop for a moment... and THINK. With the position of the Falcon's turret, what you think would happen if you set the guns dead-forward and just tacked a crosshair onto the cockpit window? At the very least, the shots would miss by ten meters! The only way to accurately target the shots from the cockpit is for the computer to constantly turn the guns according to the range.

Nope. It's a first example. I'm just getting started. Hence that big fat "More to Come . . . " sitting at the bottom of the page.

Let me guess, next thing is saying that the Death Star's turbolasers can't shoot pass it's own shields, and point blank range engagements is standard in Star Wars.

[oberon]

Wait a second, why are you asking if DarkStar has ever shot a gun out sideways? Of course he has never shot a gun at all! It's apparent that he can't even drive a stick, or he'd know something about reaction time. Chalk up 2 more deficiencies in DarkStar's possession that he makes blindingly apparent.

[Lord of the Farce]

Low speed? Ten seconds before that she was moving at 1km/sec or better, while chasing a Breen ship. The loop was an effort to take care of some JH ships on their tail. The loop obviously does not represent their maximum turning ability, since the ship turned about 90 degrees up and a bit to the side in about half a second in the 3rd part of the clip that you can't be bothered to look at.

So why didn't they just go relative vertical and then swoop down on those ships on their tail? And where were the Defiant's aft phasers?

That makes absolutely no sense. Those are enemy ships, and we do not know their velocity. Indeed, from the clips I have, I can't even tell the direction of travel.

In the "whatleavebehindpart1b.mpeg" clip, if you look through it frame by frame, you can see those group of ships in front get slightly bigger. Also, in the other clips there are plenty shots with ships heading towards each other or relative side ways, and obviously travelling at less than 1km/s.

[Master of Ossus]

Okay, DarkStar, couple things. First, I assume that you wanted me to ask how you get nearly a million different ship classes for the UFP, but since I can't seem to figure out how you get that I will ask anyway in the hopes that you will enlighten me.

Second, how big do you think a Jedi starfighter is? I think your scaling on the asteroid in AotC is wrong.

[omegaLancer]

The problem is with targeting a moving target is multiple. Just look at real air combats. In a dog fight two jets can expend 100's if not 1000's of round to score a single hit.. And that with modern gun computers that paint a on the hud a target box for the pilot to aim for to hit a jet he is engaging..

In star war we see the same. Darth vader in the famous trench dog fight in NH had such a targeting computer, which indicated when a fighter was locked on, even with that it takes several shots to score a hit.. Also mention in the Novels for the NH Turbo lasers batteries had devices called predictors, that predicted where a fighter would be to allow a TL to target a ship...

The fact that more guns mean more chances to hit.. even if a ISD had a 10% accuraticy rate, that means out of 100 shot 10 will still hit. A single hit against a Federation ship would mean a ship killed or badily crippled...

[Cal Wright]

Given the numerous misses by a TF battleship against Amidala's Royal Yacht in TPM at a range of about 60km, the numerous misses by an ISD against the Millenium Falcon in the asteroid chase scene at point-blank range, et cetera, I wouldn't say they can hit 10m things easily at all..

Funny you give those two as examples, seeing as in both they were trying to capture, not kill.

They did want to hit the ship, did they not?

They did hit the ship. Plus the little astromechs that rolled out onto the hull. They didn't want to DESTROY the ship though. A concept lost on yourself numbnuts, since you don't understand the concept of 'capture'.

Jamming and low target profile (while a X-Wing might be 10 to 15 meters long and roughly that wide, the exposed surface area from all axis is very small).

No, you don't understand. They missed wide. Not even the same ballpark.

Bullshit. I reiterate. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. They damn near were flaming those bastards. The Imperial Officer said it himself. They were so small and maneuverable that they evaded fire. Plus the Death Star was geared toward capital ship defense. Remember what the old fart Dodanna said? 'The Empire doesn't believe a one man fighter could be a threat.'

And, I trust I need not even mention Slave I versus the Jedi Fighter in AoTC, where Jango's shooting was so bad Boba actually sounded surprised when hits were made ("You got him!?!").

Jango's shooting was "so bad"?

There I go giving people too much credit again . . .


Not enough actually. Thanks for posting yet another link to your shit...er site. It just strengthens the other posters reply. Jango was barely off target. EXCEPT for the instance where the JEDI pulled his craft out on a tight loop.

You must have been watching a different version of AOTC from me, because I can quite vividly recall that no shot went past the Jedi Fighter on any side by about a couple of meters at most.

Whatever, dude.
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWasterosmack.html

Oh, there's that link. Thanks. How does your foot taste by the way?

And it was more like Boba exclaimed out loud when one of the shots punched through the Jedi Fighter's shields.

It was the first time shots had been fired that could hope to hit the hull.

Wait for it. Wait for it. Here it comes. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. Even my moron cousin agrees that Slave I was barely missing the Jedi Starfighter. Sorry Stan.

Then there's the scene which Poe describes as the Falcon chasing down TIEs, where the Falcon actually hits the friendly ship more than it hits the TIEs

Ever tried to shoot a gun while holding it out to the side? We don't know who was manning the turrets of the Falcon (if there was anyone), but we do know that jamming was in effect.

Aim the guns dead-forward, put a crosshair on the cockpit window, and don't shoot when there's a friendly behind the target. Was this concept lost over the 25,000 years of galactic civilization?

Have you ever tried to hit a TIE Fighter from a rotating turret while someone was wildly maneuvering a ship in the middle of the biggest FUCKING battle of the galaxy. Of course not?

And, of course, there's that pesky effective range limit on the MF: http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html

So a smuggler's freighter is suppose to be your all damning evidence of SW ships' weapon range?

Nope. It's a first example. I'm just getting started. Hence that big fat "More to Come . . . " sitting at the bottom of the page.

[/quote}

Damn you man! Have you no sense. It's your first example and you don't know now to back off? Have you had your IQ checked lately? Here's the pulse, far from the pulse jammed straight up your ass. Would you like a chocolate covered pretzel?

[Howedar]

Okay, DarkStar, couple things. First, I assume that you wanted me to ask how you get nearly a million different ship classes for the UFP, but since I can't seem to figure out how you get that I will ask anyway in the hopes that you will enlighten me.

I think it was just hyperbole, considering typical ship-of-the-week Trek episodes.

[Cal Wright]

Hhahahah the Trade Federation battleship incident is an example of SW inaccuracy?!

Where they were aiming to capture- and did the following:

- took out the shield generator instead of blowing the whole ship to smithereens

Ah, so I guess they were obviously trying to confuse the Royal Yacht pilots (into thinking they weren't going for the shield generator) by spraying weapons fire all around the ship? Riiight. Hitting the ship at all was a lucky shot. As I recall, they only actually hit the ship twice.

Hmm. Twice. Let's see. Hit once, defeated sheilds. Hit twice, blew out sheild generator. Hmm, then blasted all droids attempting to repair the ship. I would pull my DVD out, but I'm a lazy fuck, you'll have to excuse me So I won't be checking how many shots tonight. Tomorrow though. IOU.

- blasted off every astromech droid attempting to repair the shield generator- consistently; except for R2 of course who managed to get the shields back on in time before the trade fed gunners blew him off too.

And your evidence that they were aiming for the droids, as opposed to the droids being unlucky hull extensions that happened to get hit by the spray of weapons fire, is forthcoming?

Yes, actually it is. You see, those little droids were trying to get the ships sheilds on, which would keep the Trade Feddies from disabling the ship. So they started blasting the little fuckers. It was pretty exhilariting. Anyways, these are some shipping companies gunners. Not the Empire's best.

15m long X-Wing hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

ergo

600m long Enterprise-E hard to hit with turrets designed for destroying capital ships

Uh, isn't the Enterprise a capital ship? Corvettes sure are.


Given the maneuverability of the ship, the superior ranges of Trek weapons,

Isn't that a fa...fa...fallacy? Could be mistaken. I doubt it though.

and the simple fact that, as I point out here:
http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWwarsrange.html
. . . a Star Destroyer at 54km will be the apparent size of the TIE fighter at 200 meters, a Star Destroyer gunner is going to have an awfully hard time, whether against the slender 700 meter E-E, or the nimble 120m long Defiant, and especially with your big guns.

Gazoontite. Assuming that the EE can keep it's distance. Same goes for the pos Defiant. ISDs could gain on the Millenium Falcon, hunk of junk Feddy ships won't be shit to the might of the Imperial Navy. Big gun, big bang. The ISDs never had much trouble hitting the Falcon either.

[Crayz9000]

That's true- Star Wars capital ships never demonstrate the maneuverability of Star Trek ships...

Watch Return of the Jedi, when the fleet comes out of hyperspace near the Death Star.

Granted, those were emergency manuevers, but they were still a heck of a lot harder and faster than I've ever seen in Star Trek. At least, IIRC.

[SirNitram]

That's true- Star Wars capital ships never demonstrate the maneuverability of Star Trek ships...

Watch Return of the Jedi, when the fleet comes out of hyperspace near the Death Star.

Granted, those were emergency manuevers, but they were still a heck of a lot harder and faster than I've ever seen in Star Trek. At least, IIRC.

I can recall of one maneuver better, but only the one. The saucer(Though, dammit, it looks like triangular than anything else) of the Prometheus pulling a hard U-turn around a Romulan vessel. Well, I suppose the Defiant is also in there, though no ones come to mind.

[Admiral Drason]

Why is it that all these new fed caps besides the defiant still have those damned warp nacelles out in the open. Its as if the feds want to get blown to atoms.

[Tsyroc]

Why is it that all these new fed caps besides the defiant still have those damned warp nacelles out in the open. Its as if the feds want to get blown to atoms.

I think the Steamrunner class has them partially covered too.

It does seem rather stupid that so many races build their ships with
their nacels so exposed when we've seen that it isn't necessary. Supposedly the ships with the exposed warp nacels can reach higher speeds but the Defiant is listed as being faster than any of the other ships in the DS9 tech manual. Granted it makes up for the armored nacels with an oversized warp core but you would think that more of the miliatirisic races would be more inclined to armor their nacels.

It's possible that the Cardassians do. Not sure about the Ferengi because their ship design doensn't make it obvious and the Klingon POP protects it's propulsion more than most. I wonder if most of the races just try to compensate with more powerful shields (instead of both???)?

[RayCav of ASVS]

Why is it that all these new fed caps besides the defiant still have those damned warp nacelles out in the open. Its as if the feds want to get blown to atoms.

I think the Steamrunner class has them partially covered too.

It does seem rather stupid that so many races build their ships with
their nacels so exposed when we've seen that it isn't necessary. Supposedly the ships with the exposed warp nacels can reach higher speeds but the Defiant is listed as being faster than any of the other ships in the DS9 tech manual. Granted it makes up for the armored nacels with an oversized warp core but you would think that more of the miliatirisic races would be more inclined to armor their nacels.

It's possible that the Cardassians do. Not sure about the Ferengi because their ship design doensn't make it obvious and the Klingon POP protects it's propulsion more than most. I wonder if most of the races just try to compensate with more powerful shields (instead of both???)?

Of course the TM's aren't even considered official and are thus worth shit.

[Tsyroc]

Of course the TM's aren't even considered official and are thus worth shit.

Yeah, but I find them entertaining from time to time, about like the episodes themselves.

It's not like they don't routinely throw various canon bits and pieces from the shows out when it might interfere with a "good story"