How 'bout this: TOS Federation vs. Galactic Empire...?

[seanrobertson]

Hiya.

I, for one, find this topic offensive. But there are lots of folks
out there who truly believe that the Kirk-era Starfleet is
far more powerful, faster, tougher, etc.

Among the things they typically cite are:

--the E-nil took "planet-killing level beams" from the Doomsday
machine

--the Romulan torpedo must have X gigatons!

--When Scotty was talking about firing on Garth's penal colony,
he said the backwash of getting through the shield would
kill everything on the planet!

Then, of course, the silly examples of ST:V are cited to "prove"
starship warp speeds, and so on.

Has the so-called "Cult of Connie" ever tried to strut their stuff here?
I would think not...neat as TOS is, as far as I'm concerned it stands
an even POORER chance of holding off an Imperial invasion for a few
seconds than the VGR-DS9 era counterparts do.

[Darth Wong]

Hiya.

I, for one, find this topic offensive. But there are lots of folks
out there who truly believe that the Kirk-era Starfleet is
far more powerful, faster, tougher, etc.

Are these people the usual idiots, or are they a whole different group?

Among the things they typically cite are:

--the E-nil took "planet-killing level beams" from the Doomsday
machine

If they're pure antiproton, they're virtually harmless to shields because they're 100% antimatter, and there's no matter to react with. Did they think of that?

--the Romulan torpedo must have X gigatons!

Even if it is a gigaton-class weapon (let's say it can fragment a 10 mile wide asteroid, which would put the range between 1 and 19 gigatons), what does that prove? It was quite obvious that one hit from that thing would kill the fully shielded E-Nil, so it merely demonstrates that gigaton-class weapons are one-hit one-kill weapons against Feddie TOS ships.

--When Scotty was talking about firing on Garth's penal colony,
he said the backwash of getting through the shield would
kill everything on the planet!

Since the planet only housed a few dozen people, that's not saying much.

Then, of course, the silly examples of ST:V are cited to "prove"
starship warp speeds, and so on.

Except that we know what the centre of the galaxy looks like from telescope observations, and what we saw in STV ain't it.

Has the so-called "Cult of Connie" ever tried to strut their stuff here?

Where did the term "Connie" come from? Are they talking about that moronic sonic weapon in space?

I would think not...neat as TOS is, as far as I'm concerned it stands
an even POORER chance of holding off an Imperial invasion for a few
seconds than the VGR-DS9 era counterparts do.

The most powerful thing in all of TOS (barring godlike beings) is the Doomsday Machine which can be taken out with a 97.835 megaton blast. Nothing to get worried about.

[Master of Ossus]

I think that the technology of TOS is worse, on the whole, than the technology in DS9 and TNG (how can it not be?), but I also think that their applications of that technology are more inventive and usually better. They actually might stand a better chance than TNG Federation (after all, both the E-Nil and the E-E will be destroyed by a single HTL shot, so why does the added technology from the E-E help? On the other hand, the use of ground weapons probably would.). They would, of course, still lose, but they would probably put up more of a fight.

[Vendetta]

Actually, on visual evidence, they stand a slightly better chance, as TOS era was before they started letting silly things like scientific plausibility get in the way of a story..

Unfortunately, the Federation's also a lot smaller. The extreme examples might mark the Connie out as tougher than the distinctly fragile and volatile modern ships, but there are only 12 of them running around, and their discrepancy in power with the rest of the fleet is supposedly rather large (until things like the Excelsior class start appearing)

[Mr Bean]

They would be squished into the ground if they tried it and furthmore that shield rep is already know as its a toxic planet with... TWO people on it, killing everyone is not that hard

[Romulan_nemesis]

The Only reason that the Enterprise and the Enterprise-A Lasted as long as they did is because of their crews. Especially Scotty and McCoy and Kirk.
Spock should have gotten his own command.
Wish I could have seen Sulu with his own series. I love the ST:VI TUC era of Star Trek. I love the ships, the blue LCARS colored screens, the half touch-screen/half button panels, the uniforms, everything! It's Gene's true vision at its best.

But as far as that era against the empire? No. That falls to the TNG era.

But on a different scale, I don't think that the empire took as much pride in its ships and crew as they did in the TOS Move era. (esp the undiscovered country). Those ships were beautiful. And I know I'd be proud to serve on such a vessel as the Excelsior or the Enterprise-A. But then I have to come back to reality and realize im just a high school sophmore who has homework due tomorrow but instead is on the star destroyer.net message boards

Rommie

[SirNitram]

Allow me to enlighten Mike...

The Cult Of Connie are debators on SB.com who base their entire arguments around the most insane interpretations of the best events in TOS. 'Connie' is shorthand for 'Constitution Class Starship', which they claim is able to outrun a Death Star and blow it up the instant it emerges into realspace(Am not bullshiting).

Among other things, there is the sonic cannons calculations, constant claims that Warp Strafing ships need only dump out sand to destroy any sublight ship(Proving their pathetic understanding of many, many things), and the usual BS. They've not shown their faces here.. You'd know it.

[Singular Quartet]

Allow me to enlighten Mike...

The Cult Of Connie are debators on SB.com who base their entire arguments around the most insane interpretations of the best events in TOS. 'Connie' is shorthand for 'Constitution Class Starship', which they claim is able to outrun a Death Star and blow it up the instant it emerges into realspace(Am not bullshiting).

Among other things, there is the sonic cannons calculations, constant claims that Warp Strafing ships need only dump out sand to destroy any sublight ship(Proving their pathetic understanding of many, many things), and the usual BS. They've not shown their faces here.. You'd know it.

Yeah, we would... however, they would most likely pull the Uber-antimatter, claiming that it would nuke the Death Star with a single ounce... after all, a single ounce took all of the atmosphere off of a planet....

[TheDarkling]

I believe the calcs for the romuylan torp is 185 GT using one persons calcs but when that person used Wongs asteroid calculator he got 250 GT.

The Ent-Nil at first took 1 off these one the nose but in a later episode took at least 13.

It is ftl and has a range of at least 64 Million KM, I also think it was said to change course and accelerated itself to warp from a ship not at warp ( probably the launcher not the torp itself).

Thats the only real info I have about the Cult from what I picked up ona thread discussing the Romulan plasma torp.

Apart from Earth shields that could take enough energy to stop the sun rotating with ease (this isnt canon I believe just in GR book of TMP) but I dont know what that is.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hiya.

I, for one, find this topic offensive. But there are lots of folks
out there who truly believe that the Kirk-era Starfleet is
far more powerful, faster, tougher, etc.

I know. And remember theses rebuttles are focused at them, not you.

Among the things they typically cite are:

--the E-nil took "planet-killing level beams" from the Doomsday
machine

Naturally they assume it use a full blast, wasting fuel, on a tiny ship. Anyways, a antimatter beam would kill you on the hull or be just a simple nothing hit on the shields right?

--the Romulan torpedo must have X gigatons!

Don't remember this.

--When Scotty was talking about firing on Garth's penal colony,
he said the backwash of getting through the shield would
kill everything on the planet!

Here is an old rebuttle that I wrote to Deimos Anomaly (unreplied to of course)

And where was all the life on this POISONOUS planet?
In one small building.
Where was the shield generator?
Probably close to the building.
What happens to shield generators when the shields go down?
They can overload.
What happens when things overload?
They tend to explode. (Hehehe, I made a funink)
What happens to a building when something explodes that is near?
It tends to fall down.
What happens to living thing in a building that falls down?
They tend be killed.

Then, of course, the silly examples of ST:V are cited to "prove"
starship warp speeds, and so on.

That was not the core of the galaxy.

Has the so-called "Cult of Connie" ever tried to strut their stuff here?
I would think not...neat as TOS is, as far as I'm concerned it stands
an even POORER chance of holding off an Imperial invasion for a few
seconds than the VGR-DS9 era counterparts do.

Of course. They're main ship the Connie is half the size of a GCS and there are only a dozen

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Hiya.

I, for one, find this topic offensive. But there are lots of folks
out there who truly believe that the Kirk-era Starfleet is
far more powerful, faster, tougher, etc.

Are these people the usual idiots, or are they a whole different group?

E1701 is with them.

[VF5SS]

Its a love of TOS and the Connie gone too far...

[Sea Skimmer]

*BS detector snaps from search and scan to dogfight mode*

The Constitution is likely the most overrated ship in common sci fi. And the logic that it takes to reach cult level conclusions kills brain cells faster then playing American football drunk without helmets while on PCP.

[Evil Jerk]

I believe the TOS Federation would put up more of a fight simply because of their attitudes, resourcefulness.. and ships that don't blow up if you tap them the wrong way.
They'd still be squished though.

However, I note with interest that as more and more TNG sided Trekkies fail, some people are trying to prop up the TOS Federation and it's ships as some sort of uber-Federation that can take on anything (perhaps hoping that removing the flaws of TNG-onwards will save them).

Nice try.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Allow me to enlighten Mike...

The Cult Of Connie are debators on SB.com who base their entire arguments around the most insane interpretations of the best events in TOS. 'Connie' is shorthand for 'Constitution Class Starship', which they claim is able to outrun a Death Star and blow it up the instant it emerges into realspace(Am not bullshiting).

Looks like they need to be introduced to the power of the Big Giant Dot.

[beyond hope]

They're so funny to read posts from, though: I'd bet they think that when the Uber-Connie is done dispatching the entire Imperial fleet, they'll go off to beat up The Culture.

[jegs2]

Likely this is a horse corpse that has been sufficiently beaten into a leathery husk, but.......

What would the Galactic Empire have met had the old Evil Kirk (forgive me, for I know not the proper ST episode speak) in the other Federation dimension, in which the Earth men were ruthless imperials. Also assume that the crossover never happened (Evil Spock turning "good" upon having met "good" Kirk), so the "evil" imperial humans kept on track up to TNG days, conquering all in their path.

[EmperorMing]

Now *that* would be interesting...

Who knows. They might even ally.


(contemplates the possibilities)

[Enlightenment]

The Cult Of Connie are debators on SB.com who base their entire arguments around the most insane interpretations of the best events in TOS. 'Connie' is shorthand for 'Constitution Class Starship', which they claim is able to outrun a Death Star and blow it up the instant it emerges into realspace(Am not bullshiting).

You're overstating things a little. As far as I can tell these people are engaging in a slightly off brand of humor. They're no more serious than all the folks who 'seriously' suggest that Mr T could throw a Vorlon.

[VF5SS]

Of coures the funniest thing about the TOS Connie is that it can only make ascending turns...

[Evil Jerk]

Likely this is a horse corpse that has been sufficiently beaten into a leathery husk, but.......

What would the Galactic Empire have met had the old Evil Kirk (forgive me, for I know not the proper ST episode speak) in the other Federation dimension, in which the Earth men were ruthless imperials. Also assume that the crossover never happened (Evil Spock turning "good" upon having met "good" Kirk), so the "evil" imperial humans kept on track up to TNG days, conquering all in their path.

I think it'd be more interesting, the Terran Empire would undoubtably have better weapons than the Feddies in the same period, I remember some novels hinting that the Empire was powerful enough back in the TOS era to go over to the Borg and smack them down, not that that's canon, of course.

Although, I think they'd have to get rid of that pirate style crew system with the crew killing each other for better positions, to be truly effective (on a side note, funny how this trait would later be seen in the TNG Klingons, eh?)