Who CAN the Federation Ground Troops beat?

CmdrWilkens · Post by **CmdrWilkens** » 2002-09-09 01:50am

Darth Yoshi wrote:Successful thread hijacking by Tharkun.

I don't even have the heart to go see WHERE it got hijacked to try and bring it back to its original purpose. Cripes when I left it was on page 14 now its 27, thats 13 pages worth of hijacking space. On any other board someone would have realized it was time for a new thread about 10 pages ago.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-09 02:16am

What difference does it make

Regardless Tharkun and I seem to have come to a sort of agreement- albeit after much erm ... heated debate ... something was achieved!

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-09-10 12:51am

The Imperial assault on Hoth was decided as a whim by Vader, who saw the energy projector and simply said, "That's it". It was a hunch at worst, or a disturbance in the Force at best, and it gave him no strategic insight into the strength of the Rebel forces.

In fact, Ozzel brushed it off, saying that it could be "... an uncharted settlement, smugglers...". We learn from this statement-- in the Star Wars universe, even a bunch of rag-tags have common access to planetary shielding and this comes as no surprise or concern to an experienced Imperial commander. The only possible excuse could be that because Hoth has a heavy concentration of asteroids a planetary shield would be necessary. But still-- a handful of bums can get ahold of one...

And as for the AT-STs spinning their heads as turrets-- Tharkun, the point you make about the central mass of a tank remaining grounded is a very good one, but I am sure that the Imperials would have the sense to gyro-stabilize the hell out of a walking machine. Since the walker is designed with the head-turning feature, I think it is safe to asume that it is able to deal with that function without inviting disaster. In fact, we saw it happen, a 90-degree turn to deal with the catapault. And I am sue that I saw Chewie take out some stormies with his AT-ST, I'd have to see the show again to make sure.

Other things happened at Endor we forgot-- the Rebels were surely fighting, even though they were not as numerous as the Imperials they were clearly better-equipped for a hard fight in the forest, and the Ewoks were picking up blasters and using them, we saw one strike a victory pose with an E-11 raised Che-Guevara style as Chewie began working the Imperials in his walker.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-10 02:23am

Canon proof of how hard-core Imperial officers are:

"That is the system; and I'm sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system ..."

Vader WHIRLS around and is barely 1mm from General Veers face. Veers is totally calm...

"General Veers! Prepare your men!"

tharkûn · Post by **tharkûn** » 2002-09-10 08:26pm

The Imperial assault on Hoth was decided as a whim by Vader, who saw the energy projector and simply said, "That's it". It was a hunch at worst, or a disturbance in the Force at best, and it gave him no strategic insight into the strength of the Rebel forces.

I go with Force intuition myself. Note intution, not omnscience.

In fact, Ozzel brushed it off, saying that it could be "... an uncharted settlement, smugglers...". We learn from this statement-- in the Star Wars universe, even a bunch of rag-tags have common access to planetary shielding and this comes as no surprise or concern to an experienced Imperial commander. The only possible excuse could be that because Hoth has a heavy concentration of asteroids a planetary shield would be necessary. But still-- a handful of bums can get ahold of one...
Or that the generator is not solely used for theatre sheilds (note this was *NOT* a planetary sheild). Let's say that all the generator does is supply the power and "battery" space for the sheild, in which case it could be a simple standrard issue industrial grade power generator which could run anything from a sheild to mining operations.

Remember the lead is "life signs" not "a military grade theatre sheild".

Tharkun, the point you make about the central mass of a tank remaining grounded is a very good one, but I am sure that the Imperials would have the sense to gyro-stabilize the hell out of a walking machine.
Except of course they have crap for stabilization for the legs. When walking over loose logs the thing falls over and *dies*, for a scout vehicle that is rather bad. Scout vehicles are supposed to be able to transverse obstacles without dying. If they can play around with negating the problems with a moving centre of mass at the head, it should work to do the same with the thing as a whole. Given that a scout's priority is not stabilized firing, but terrain handling I'd bet on the head not being heavily stabailized if the falls because its centre of gravity gets out of line due to a few logs.

Since the walker is designed with the head-turning feature, I think it is safe to asume that it is able to deal with that function without inviting disaster. In fact, we saw it happen, a 90-degree turn to deal with the catapault. And I am sue that I saw Chewie take out some stormies with his AT-ST, I'd have to see the show again to make sure.

I'm not saying it will be disaster, just that it needs to reaquire the target. For instance grab a low weight tank, put a 130 mm gun on the front, fire off a KEP ... the recoil will mean you need to reaquire the target before firing again (think trade fed tanks). An AT-ST likely suffers some of the same drawbacks, when it fires it likely needs to reaquire its target after each shot. This is rather normal for mech infantry, but it does mean its poor close support (compared to say a high calibre machine gun).

Other things happened at Endor we forgot-- the Rebels were surely fighting, even though they were not as numerous as the Imperials they were clearly better-equipped for a hard fight in the forest, and the Ewoks were picking up blasters and using them, we saw one strike a victory pose with an E-11 raised Che-Guevara style as Chewie began working the Imperials in his walker
Better equipped? What evidence do you have?

The rebs should be cannon fodder if the imps had any chemical weapons. Further when you capture enemy prisoners ... bind them. When you take prisoners you should tie their hands togethor (or better still use handcuffs) until they are removed from the front. Otherwise you have dedicated gaurds who will shoot them when they start to run/fight back, or better still both. The stormies exercise neither of these basic tactics ... when all hell breaks lose they descend into chaos. When you take prisoners, especially at a critical installation ... tie them up.

Canon proof of how hard-core Imperial officers are:

"That is the system; and I'm sure Skywalker is with them. Set your course for the Hoth system ..."

Vader WHIRLS around and is barely 1mm from General Veers face. Veers is totally calm...

"General Veers! Prepare your men!"

Umm that's not much. Any grunt going through hellish training gets that drill. Ask any marine what its like to hear a superior at 1mm.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-10 11:02pm

Ah but was the drill instructor a Dark Lord of the Sith with a big scary helmet and a reputation for choking?

jegs2 · Post by **jegs2** » 2002-09-11 10:04am

What is the intelligence apparatus of the Empire? The only time I've seen it is in ANH, during which an officer speaks to the Grand Moff, "Sir, we've analyzed their attack, and there is a danger." Outside of that instance, I've not seen Imperial intelligence officers in action, although I'm sure they exist. Which intelligence-gathering platforms do they use? Some intel-gatering platforms I've noticed:

HUMINT: spies (the thing with the funny nose squeking into a mike in ANH)

IMINT: long-range probe droids (ESB)

SIGINT: Interception of Rebel transmissions in ANH

There are certain to be more, but those are the example that come to mind.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-09-11 10:24am

I think the WEG (shudder) Imperial source book has some info on that.

I don't think ANH 'analyzed their attack' passes as intelligence though- more likely they saw what was happening right in front of their eyes and realized they were barreling down that trench to hit the exhaust port, IIRC?

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-11 01:34pm

Along with a real powerfull computer to process all that data and come up with some likely solutions.

EmperorMing · Post by **EmperorMing** » 2002-09-11 01:35pm

Actually HUMINT could be called ALININT for SW.

Post by **Coyote** » 2002-09-11 11:10pm

The AT-ST performed well, but the logs were an awful lot for even the best of gyro-stabilization to deal with. In our own world, we know that amphibous APCs still founder, in fact the Bradley IFV program was almost canceled because of its poor fording ability, and even though the best thing for snow and ice is a track vehicle, onr cold January night at Fort Carson I personally slid an M-113 on ice quite a few feet and there was precious little I could do about it. I'd put the roll of logs in a status similar to an avelanche, and even the best of vehicles would have a hard time of that...

The Rebels were clearly equipped for a firefight in the forest-- they had proper tactical movement and spacing, they'd camouflaged themselves, and kept to the low country. A few times they held their blaster rifles as if in a 'ready-aim' position, better than the Stormtrooper training of hip-shooting. They draped themselves with loose clothing, the better to break up their silouhette, and fought from the hide rather than standing up in the open.

While I admire the Stormtroopers and think the Empire is a kick-ass operation (lets face it, in the movies we see a lot of Imperial victories, thus making them a competent and respectable enemy for the Rebels and the audience) the Empire suffers from 'victory syndrome', and are clearly so used to having the upper hand that they have let some basic tactical understanding slip by. All the hiding and scurrying stuff is probably seen as the cowardly tactics of the weak...

...but they work.