Occam's Razor and Borg KE Shielding-split from DarkStar poll

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

-His method of operation follows the simple dictum of "If it hurts SW, hold to it at all costs." He has a near-religious zeal to tear down SW's strengths...

No, I just stand by the evidence, and arguments which are not proven false. I question all statements, including my own, to be sure that they hold weight. If they do not, I will not support them.

And you conveniently dispose Occam's Razor to compare "Borg drones have selective KE shielding" with "Borg drones doesn't have KE shielding."


BTW, WHAT evidence?

[TheDarkling]

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman: I tire of warsies using Occam's Razor as if it wins every debate for them the simply fact is the Borg KE shielding the simplest explanation is tha the Borg have KE shields.

This way we dont have to come up with comlpex reasoning behind why Picard, The Enterprise Crew, Starfleet tacticles Borg division, Voyagers crew, Seven of Nine, the other Borg drones and finally Picard again after he had just used a gun, cant come up with this idea - that hads huge complexity to the non-ke shield theory.
Then you have to explain why the supper drone got super advanced physical shielding from nowhere (If I recall correctly he had shilds tat were more powerful than a sphere).

The Pro KE shield side has only one thing to explain away and that is why he wasnt used against Worf, this can be done in many ways Darkstars varying KE theory, the fact that borg adapt after one hit, not all drones have KE shields or no drones have KE shields but they are upgraded if necessary.

You see the KE theory far simpler and it doesnt require 100's of people to miss the obvious for some unknown redason that has yet to be explained.

If you want to continue this take it over to the correct thread although he will probably be more dancing around.

[Cpt_Frank]

Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman: I tire of warsies using Occam's Razor as if it wins every debate for them the simply fact is the Borg KE shielding the simplest explanation is tha the Borg have KE shields.

This way we dont have to come up with comlpex reasoning behind why Picard, The Enterprise Crew, Starfleet tacticles Borg division, Voyagers crew, Seven of Nine, the other Borg drones and finally Picard again after he had just used a gun, cant come up with this idea - that hads huge complexity to the non-ke shield theory.

No, the selective KE shielding is NOT the most obvious solution.
We saw holographic bullets which behave just like real ones kill 2 borg drones, and the fact starfleet doesn't use KE weapons isn't difficult to explain regarding Starfleet's over-standadisation and moronic army conception in general.
And btw I believe we have seen one of the SF weapons which may have been intended for use against the borg, the anti-personel grenade launcher from insurrection.

However DarkStar's theory requires holographic bullets to be of a nature different to those of KE weapons and energy weapons, and it requires a shield mechanism never seen on ST before.

[SirNitram]

Darkling, I'm sad to say you don't appear to understand Occam's Razor. It works like this.

1) Does one of two theories have more Unknowns than the other?
2) Does one of two theories include more evidence into it?
3) Does one of two theories not require postulating something unseen?

Run through those, and all of Dark Star's arguments blow away like dust. For the DS, we must supply an unknown mechanism which acts in unknown ways to produce, through unknown reactions, rings. For the KE shields, we must assume(For no real reason other than to help the pro-KE shield side) that holographic bullets have unknown qualities outside of the scope of normal bullets, beyond simply being made, maintained, and destroyed by the Holodeck. We must also assume a KE shield when we've only seen them on one drone.. One from the 29th Century!

[DarkStar]

Darkling, I'm sad to say you don't appear to understand Occam's Razor. It works like this.

No, it works like this:

http://www.weburbia.com/physics/occam.html

Your versions are all gross misrepresentations of it.

[SirNitram]

Wow, it's a gross misrepresentation that, amazingly, comes from multiple college textbooks.... Which, of course, I place on a higher level than a wetbsite.

Nevertheless, you are correct I am not repeating what Occam himself said. I am repeating the principle often referred to as Occam's Razor, which is, amazingly, pointed out in that page.

Such things as...

"We are to admit no more causes of natural things than such as are both true and sufficient to explain their appearances."

(Sort of like not throwing in KE shields when we never see them.)

or...

"when you have two competing theories which make exactly the same predictions, the one that is simpler is the better."

(Like when one means of making Alderaan explode requires simple DET, and the other requires an unknown reaction of an unknown mechanism)

I'm partial to the Principle Of Economy,

"Scientists must use the simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses."

As it throws out extras like magic, chain reactions, and Small Gods making things work.

Of course, if you substitute 'Law Of Parsimony' with 'Occam's Razor' in this thread, we are correct. We merely like the sound of Occam's Razor, since it is the colloquial term for it all.

[Sam Or I]

playing devils advocate, because you use Occam's razor DOES NOT mean the theory is correct, just more likely to be correct.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

playing devils advocate, because you use Occam's razor DOES NOT mean the theory is correct, just more likely to be correct.

Technically Gravity isn't the ultimate correct theory, just the theory most likely to be corrected as apposed to invisible monkeys pulling stuff down..

[Ender]

playing devils advocate, because you use Occam's razor DOES NOT mean the theory is correct, just more likely to be correct.

Technically Gravity isn't the ultimate correct theory, just the theory most likely to be corrected as apposed to invisible monkeys pulling stuff down..

You mean an invisible monkey didn't throw that apple at Newton?

[SirNitram]

playing devils advocate, because you use Occam's razor DOES NOT mean the theory is correct, just more likely to be correct.

Technically Gravity isn't the ultimate correct theory, just the theory most likely to be corrected as apposed to invisible monkeys pulling stuff down..

You mean an invisible monkey didn't throw that apple at Newton?

Collapsing Ender's worldview is always fun.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

First of all my apologize due to my apparent AWOL during last five days. The company I work for just sent me to a training abroad and guess what? No internet in the hotel room

Now, maybe I would be like an irresponsible SOB for "disappearing" from the battlefield and returned after the war is over (ie DarkStar banned), but I think at least I owe a reply to The Darkling.


Let's take a look on the evidence first:

1. Selective KE shielding: no evidence, far as I'm concerned.

2. No KE shielding: there were several occassion where KE attacks are effective against the Borg, such as claws and batleth.


And then let's take a look on things need to be explained by each theory:

1. Selective KE shielding:
- First it has to prove that the bullets in ST:FC are massless holograms.
- Even if it's true, that the bullets are pure holos (note that this whole premise is still debatable), it still has to explain why it means no projectiles have been fired at the drones.
- To be frank, it can be explained using "absence of evidence=evidence of absence" (note that "absence of evidence=evidence of absence" means no selective KE shielding either, since DarkStar, as he admitted himself, cannot point to a single eposide that shows drone's selective KE shielding.).
- But even if it's true, that no bullets/projectiles have been fired at the Borg, this theory still has to explain why it is because they are ineffective against the drones, and not because other reason.
- This theory has also explain its assumption that the Feds hadn't been using it's experimental projectile weapons simply because they are ineffective against the Borg due to selective KE shielding; and not due to other reasons (like because the weapon is still in experimental stage, etc)
- This theory has also explain its assumption that the Feds hadn't been widely using 20th KE weapons simply because they are ineffective against the Borg due to selective KE shielding; and not due to other reasons (like the difficulties to replicate them. the material availability, the design availability, the proper training needed by Feds personnel to use such weapons, etc)

2. No KE shielding:
- It has to explain why bullets and arrows can also effective against the drones. Well, bullets and arrows carry more KE than claws and batleth. Simple logic, simple physic.
- It has to explain the possibility that the drones actually has KE shielding (not neccessarily a selective one) but either were unable to use it or chose not to use it during the events in ST:FC and Scorpion. Well, if they're unable to use it, then the shielding system may be unreliable in field condition. If they chose not to use it, then Borg are just plain stupid, because they were in needs to defend themselves from KE attacks at those two episodes.


With so many things to explain, not to mention the "if it's true" conditions, how can DarkStar's conjecture is more reasonable than "common warsie conjecture"?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

playing devils advocate, because you use Occam's razor DOES NOT mean the theory is correct, just more likely to be correct.

Precisely! That's the whole discussion about; which theory ("selective KE shield vs no KE shield") is more likely to be correct.

[Robert Walper]

My theory is that Borg drones cannot deploy energy shielding and KE shielding at the same time. They must chose one type of shielding, leaving them vunlerable to the other. This would explain how they can conquer primitive civilizations that would heavily rely upon guns and such. Undoubtably, they would think the Borg are "vulnerable" to energy weapons. It's a question of numbers, deploy the shielding that is most needed, deploying both is far too power cosuming, ending up leaving the drone vulnerable to either attack and in need of constant regeneration to maintain power reserves.

[beyond hope]

Okay, so why not use *armor* to deal with KE weapons while the shields tackle the energy weapons? *Armor* would not cost the drone anything other than some speed and mobility (and they move slow as dirt to begin with.) It seems much more reasonable to me that the borg don't employ KE shields on drones because they don't *have* them, and that the reluctance on the part of SF crewmembers to engage them hand-to-hand has more to do with the assimilation tubules that the drones go around sticking in peoples' necks in First Contact. No KE shields is TOTALLY in keeping with the borg's use of drones as disposable units: they may lose a few to desperate knife or club attacks, but the drones will in turn overwhelm and convert SF crewmembers trying it. Lose one drone, gain one drone: no net loss to the collective. So, the ultimate weapon against borg drones would be something like a USAS-12 auto shotgun loaded with 000 buckshot.

[Alyeska]

Okay, so why not use *armor* to deal with KE weapons while the shields tackle the energy weapons? *Armor* would not cost the drone anything other than some speed and mobility (and they move slow as dirt to begin with.) It seems much more reasonable to me that the borg don't employ KE shields on drones because they don't *have* them, and that the reluctance on the part of SF crewmembers to engage them hand-to-hand has more to do with the assimilation tubules that the drones go around sticking in peoples' necks in First Contact. No KE shields is TOTALLY in keeping with the borg's use of drones as disposable units: they may lose a few to desperate knife or club attacks, but the drones will in turn overwhelm and convert SF crewmembers trying it. Lose one drone, gain one drone: no net loss to the collective. So, the ultimate weapon against borg drones would be something like a USAS-12 auto shotgun loaded with 000 buckshot.

Unless they deployed armor in which case you would want to use a P90 or M4 carbine. In instances of extreme armor you can set up static emplacements or simply have people armed with M203s and MG3 machineguns.

[Slartibartfast]

My theory is that Borg drones cannot deploy energy shielding and KE shielding at the same time. They must chose one type of shielding, leaving them vunlerable to the other. This would explain how they can conquer primitive civilizations that would heavily rely upon guns and such. Undoubtably, they would think the Borg are "vulnerable" to energy weapons. It's a question of numbers, deploy the shielding that is most needed, deploying both is far too power cosuming, ending up leaving the drone vulnerable to either attack and in need of constant regeneration to maintain power reserves.

The problem with that theory is that it comes apart in any civilization that has just begun to use energy weapons: either 10% still use old projectile weapons and 90% are using already the newer particle/plasma/phase/laser/blaster electro-whatever" beam, or vice-versa. Or if they still use both depending on situation - that would basically means that the Borg would fall victim to anyone using dual-guns (a laser and a colt .357 ) and, well, it wouldn't take that long for the entire world to catch up. It's not too power consuming to have both kinds of handguns...

Since the entire Borg tactic is to assimilate people by stumbling towards them a la Night of the Living Dead, there would be no need for any other special treknologies.

I don't know much about Star Wars books, but I've heard that they still use solid projectiles for certain applications (can anyone confirm or deny this?)