New Guy Signing On

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

Hello! I'm AJ Talon, the newbie on this forum, though I'm guessing you guys already figured that out, huh? I look foward to debating stuff with all you guys! Though, first off I have a question:

Why was the Enterprise-E portrayed as so weak in ST:I?

I mean, c'mon: The Sovereign is the most powerful class of starship the Federation has built to date! It's equipped with 12 Type XII phasers ( most powerful the Feds can put together and the same type and power as the phasers on DS9) quantum/photon torpedos (arrayed in three to five rapid-fire launch tubes) ablative armor, regenerative sheilding, and a warp core of the same type as in the Defiant, only about six times bigger and six times as powerful!

The Son'a, despite all their cheesy evil villian stuff are probably only as powerful as the Breen at best, and without their sheild dampening tech are about as fragile as a Galaxy class Starship. The Sovereign SHOULD have been able to waste both Son'a ships in a matter of minutes at most.
I'm hardly saying the Sovereign's invincible: Merely that given her foes she should have triumphed without using the whole metreon gas pocket Riker Manuver thing. But alas, it was probably plot device that got her, but anyone else can elaborate?

And yes, in case you haven't gotten by now, I HATED ST:I, and generally disregard it from ST as a whole. See you later!

[quote][/quote][/i]

[Darth Wong]

Because the writers are actually closet SW fans, and they wanted to weaken the Federation to the point that three men and a howitzer could destroy the Enterprise

[EmperorMing]

Trek writing is poor and inconsistant, along with poor battle sequences. In my mind that is what makes it so easy to bash. It aint TOS, Toto!

[Eleas]

Because the writers are actually closet SW fans, and they wanted to weaken the Federation to the point that three men and a howitzer could destroy the Enterprise

A true SW fan would never show such blatant disregard for human life. Not even for Trek fans.

[Cpt_Frank]

No wars fan except for the Emperor himself. Perhaps B&B are Emperor's hands?

[Master of Ossus]

The real reason is that they needed to make the S'ona seem powerful. It's too bad, really.

[Knife]

Because time after time, the Feds hold off from properly defending themselves in hostile situations in favor of waiting to see if they can negotiate with the bad guys. Because they did not anticipate the use of illegal weapons even though they knew the Son'a had and would use illegal weapons. Because even though the Son'a fired torpedoes at the E-E, they decided(E-E) to make a run for it, instead of standing and fighting, and using the impressive(startrek universe)weapons of the Enterprise.
Mainly because the Fed's don't know dick about combat.

[Andrew Joshua Talon]

If the Feds didn't know "dick" about combat, as Knife so eloquently put it, they would have lost the whole damn Dominion War! It's the writer's fault that Trek has so many inconsistencies, but hey I still love it.

[quote][/quote]

[Evil Jerk]

Perhaps the writers are simply trying to show us once again that Riker is an idiot who shouldn't be allowed within 10 light years of a starship.
This is the same guy who lost the E-D to a decrepid tug, after all.

[ClaysGhost]

Trek writing is poor and inconsistant, along with poor battle sequences. In my mind that is what makes it so easy to bash. It aint TOS, Toto!

I seem to remember that TOS space battles often involved a pair of flashing lights floating about on the viewing screen (apparently, the enemy ship), with the actual battle only proceeding through the dialogue between Kirk, Sulu and Chekov rather than any visuals. If we were lucky, we saw a shot of the frying pan + cardboard tubes that was the Enterprise, moving slightly strangely (wobbling).

The TNG battles I never really liked, except for the fight in the last-ever episode. That was good, although short. DS9 fights were ok, but I don't like the introduction of fighters. The battle in the first-ever DS9 episode was probably the best, I think.

I certainly prefer the film battles, yea, even the hideous one in ST9 to those in EpI. I mean, Wesley was never actually allowed to shoot at anyone, unlike kid-Anakin (I emphasise that I'm talking about space battles only, of course).

[Evil Jerk]

I seem to remember that TOS space battles often involved a pair of flashing lights floating about on the viewing screen (apparently, the enemy ship), with the actual battle only proceeding through the dialogue between Kirk, Sulu and Chekov rather than any visuals. If we were lucky, we saw a shot of the frying pan + cardboard tubes that was the Enterprise, moving slightly strangely (wobbling).

What do you expect? It was made in the 60s with an immensley crappy budget.
But they still put more drama into it that some of the recent so-called battles I could mention..

[ClaysGhost]

What do you expect? It was made in the 60s with an immensley crappy budget.
But they still put more drama into it that some of the recent so-called battles I could mention..

I expect exactly that, for something made then on that budget.

I just don't find Chekov reporting that the Klingons' shield three is buckling dramatic, at all.

[Slartibartfast]

If we were lucky, we saw a shot of the frying pan + cardboard tubes that was the Enterprise, moving slightly strangely (wobbling).

I object! The Enterprise isn't a frying pan. It's actually two disposable plastic dishes glued together, plus assorted bathroom supplies.

Check your facts, you Rabid Warsie you!

[Patrick Degan]

If the Feds didn't know "dick" about combat, as Knife so eloquently put it, they would have lost the whole damn Dominion War!

From what we saw in Deep Space Nine, the Federation only won the Dominion War because the Dominion knew even less than dick about combat than the Federationists.

And as for the inevitable objection about how the Dominion controlled such a large empire in the Gamma Quadrant, given their observed strategic ineptitude, all that means is that the Dominion's GQ enemies were even more pathetic than the Federation.

[Darth Wong]

From what we saw in Deep Space Nine, the Federation only won the Dominion War because the Dominion knew even less than dick about combat than the Federationists.

How can you say that? You saw their brilliant tactics in "Siege of AR-588". When attacking an entrenched enemy, warn them of your approach by screaming loudly, and then form into a closely-spaced mob and charge at them! Are these not BRILLIANT tactics? Good thing for them there wasn't a US marine with a SAW waiting for them

[seanrobertson]

Hello! I'm AJ Talon, the newbie on this forum, though I'm guessing you guys already figured that out, huh? I look foward to debating stuff with all you guys! Though, first off I have a question:

Why was the Enterprise-E portrayed as so weak in ST:I?

Was it portrayed as weak? Remember, it could only appear as "weak"
next to a pair of Son'a battleships.

I mean, c'mon: The Sovereign is the most powerful class of starship the Federation has built to date! It's equipped with 12 Type XII phasers ( most powerful the Feds can put together and the same type and power as the phasers on DS9) quantum/photon torpedos (arrayed in three to five rapid-fire launch tubes) ablative armor, regenerative sheilding, and a warp core of the same type as in the Defiant, only about six times bigger and six times as powerful!

Hmm...well, I don't doubt it's more powerful than a Galaxy.
It might have the fancier phasers; indeed, for it to better on the GCS's
phaser output, it would need more powerful individual emitters because the phaser strips are so much shorter. Canonicly, there is
no evidence to lay claim to the phaser emitters' type, though.

Regenerative shielding, I believe, and selectively armored areas is
also possible since the same has been done on "Federation 'large'"
capship scale (Prometheus).

Everything else: if you can see it on the studio model, and it's clear
as to what it is, it's ok by me; e.g., extra torpedo launchers here
and there. However, I would ostensibly avoid claiming that
the ship routinely uses its full potential...we saw it in desperate
need of blowing up a Borg cube in "First Contact," yet it fired 3-4
quantum torpedos at a time and but single phaser array discharges.

The Son'a, despite all their cheesy evil villian stuff are probably only as powerful as the Breen at best, and without their sheild dampening tech are about as fragile as a Galaxy class Starship.

When did the Son'a use power-draining/shield dampening technology?
And I'd argue that the GCS is actually a very powerful ship among
the Alpha Quadrant powers, second to but a handful of starships in production among those powers (D'Deridex, Venore, Negh'Var, Sovereign, and Prometheus classes to be precise).

As an organization, the Son'a *do* seem rather much the third or
fourth-tier power. I'd say the Breen have a much greater influence
than the Son'a do. However, this does not address the issue at point:
the strength of Son'a battleships. Though obviously it'd be
vitally important to have a ton of resources at hand, the Son'a may
simply have chosen to devote the few resources they had into building
much larger, more powerful ships than one might expect. It's analogous
to the Klingons ceasing production on all Birds-of-Prey only to build
Negh'Vars. For a large empire, it's a stupid decision; but since
the Son'a's sphere of influence is quite small and they're politically
nonaligned, they might be able to afford a kind of pirate's approach
to equipping their starfleet.

The Sovereign SHOULD have been able to waste both Son'a ships in a matter of minutes at most.
I'm hardly saying the Sovereign's invincible: Merely that given her foes she should have triumphed without using the whole metreon gas pocket Riker Manuver thing. But alas, it was probably plot device that got her, but anyone else can elaborate?

And yes, in case you haven't gotten by now, I HATED ST:I, and generally disregard it from ST as a whole. See you later!

I didn't hate the film, though it was disappointing.

All I can add is that you need remember that, generally speaking,
bigger translates to more powerful in starships--at least in Trek.
(Note the qualifier, "generally speaking." Since we are merely
guessing as to why the E-E might've appeared to come up short,
that which is most often the case is the best thing to run with IMO.)
And IIRC, those Son'a battleships were something like 800m wide--giant
buggers.

A few other important things to keep in mind:

1--The E-E wasn't optimized for functioning in the "Briar Patch." I
don't remember the specifics, but starships required some sort of
modification to function best in the thing.

2--The E-E was concentrating on fleeing. Though I agree Riker should've
unloaded plenty more torpedos on the Son'a, it's possible that he was
trying to throw all power into the impulse engines and shields. They
were, after all, trying to clear the Patch to send a signal, so time
was of the essence.

2a--It's arguable that, in a hurry, you'd be better off killing your
enemies first; then, you could take your time in getting to your
safe haven or what-have-you. That's reasonable. However,
the E-E's main weapons fire *forward*. The E-E would have to
slowly turn around to face the Son'a ships head-on, at which point
quantum torpedo usage would be a danger to the E-E herself.
It'd give the phasers better firing arcs, but ultimately, it'd just
turn you around and send you in the wrong direction.

3--The aforementioned torpedo factor. Sometimes I think we rarely
see some ships cut loose because of the inherent danger of detonating
one's own weapons at close range. In "Q Who?," "The Nth Degree,"
and at least a couple other episodes, firing on a ship less than
a few kilometers away, especially when your own shields are being
drained or have failed, is deemed a very bad idea.

4--Riker, not the ship, is at fault. Riker probably chose the course
of action identified in #2: let's put all our power into running and
shields, and let's just gamble on the fact that the Son'a might not press
the issue after a few warning shots (not wanting to go to war with
the Federation, after all). Bad thinking on his part. He should've
known to do everything he could to blast those ships with rear-facing
firepower.

5--Aft coverage availability. Maybe the first shot from the Son'a was
a kind of sucker punch and took out some of the E-E's aft weapons?
Obviously, one of the torpedo launchers was still functional, but it
fired at an abysmally low rate. The E-D could do much better in
many episodes ("Q Who?" again, "Encounter at Farpoint," and "The
Nth Degree" once more among others).

5a--Torpedo stocks. Perhaps the E-E's torpedo inventory had been
drained in a number of recent engagements with the Dominion,
and simply didn't have time between one or more of those and
its diplomatic mission to dock and reload? This would explain
why Riker chose a Judo-like strategy of using the Son'a's weapons
against them rather than simply cutting loose with one
torpedo after another.

5b--Other, unforeseen torpedo dangers. Maybe LaForge told
Riker it'd be unwise to even *try* to fire torpedos with so much
reactive gas nearby, or something similar?

In the final count, there are a no. of possibilities. The one I didn't
really emphasize is the fact that Son'a ships might simply be tough!
Sure, they are a crummy bunch, but that has no bearing on their
ship-building abilities (or ability to steal from other good shipbuilders
perhaps).

[Darth Wong]

In the final count, there are a no. of possibilities. The one I didn't really emphasize is the fact that Son'a ships might simply be tough! Sure, they are a crummy bunch, but that has no bearing on their
ship-building abilities (or ability to steal from other good shipbuilders
perhaps).

Ummm .... their ships were destroyed by chemical fire. In the dense gaseous Briar Patch, radiation/fluid interactions would have been visible as a fireball, much as a nuclear-yield explosion is always identifiable as such in an atmosphere. This means that they were destroyed by conventional-yield weapons.

Sorry.

[Sidious]

Why was the Enterprise-E portrayed as so weak in ST:I?

I would be more interested in learning how the Sona, basically a handful of teenagers who ran away from home, were able to conquer 2 other races and build vessles powerful enough to send a "top o' the line" Fed cap ship running.

True, we dont know how long it takes for the youth enhancing effects of the planet's rings to wear off, or how long the Sona have been keeping themselves alive by draining toxins and getting facelifts. I guess if we're talking thousands of years I could see them multiplying and building up an empire, but why havent they shown up b4 now? Ah well, topic for another thread I suppose...