Defiant Vs. Millennium Falcon

[Cal Wright]

Except the Falcon will be using the very same such light weapons.

No it will not. The Falcon will be using it's quad lasers, while the Defiant's crew will be shitting themselves while trying to get thier coveted 'phaser lock'.

With the Defiants larger bulk and armor it can take much more damage from the Falcons light weapons.

heavy weapons. The Defiant ain't gonna hold up to a barrage of charmin.

And to get in at such angles the Falcon would have to be EXTREMELY close,

Han or Lando could easily hit that washtub from a great distance.

which it would not be able to maintain because all the Defiant has to do is move in random directions and the Falcon can no longer stay within 20 meters.

Oh that's it. Your just making up bullshit claims. Where'd you get 20 meters from? News flash, the Defiant is in now way similar to a TIE Fighter. The Falcon made short work of the Imperial fighters over and over again. The Defiant couldnt do shit to Jem H'dar Cock-fucking-roaches. I don't know if I've said this yet, but the Defiant will go down harder than a Las Vegas whore.

The Defiant's coverage with its beam phasers give it almost complete coverage even at close ranges.

Federation pea shooters aint worth shit against a ship that takes multi hundred gigaton weaponary.

The beam phasers themselves were powerful enough that they are used in capship combat.

That's because they were DESIGNED to. Isn't the Defiant supposed to take down Borg cubes? I could be wrong, but if I'm not First Contact might just be the most damning piece of evidence to the Star Trek side of debates.

If they were significantly weaker then either the QTs or PPCs, these beam phasers would not be used, but they have been used against a Jemhadar Attackship, an Excelsior, a Warbird, and the alternate universe Negh'Var monster.

They could be used against little old ladies crossing the street. Just my two cents though, the Defiant will be shitfaced and scrap metal before Han can utter a curse.

In all likelyhood the beam phaser is stronger then any one, or possibly 2-3 PPC pulses.

Yet it's nothing compared to the Quadlasers the Falcon carries.

The PPC gets its power in the fact that each PPC can fire 4 shots per second, and with 4 cannons thats 16 pulses in a single second.

And the Quadlasers can't do this? One pumped out numerous shots in a second. It'll only take one though to scrap the Defiant.

And these pulses are significant enough in firepower to do damage to other Trek ships.

Which would be vaporised by ONE turbolaser shot (Worf stating that 400GW is more far more than thier sheilds can handle.). The Falcon took many of these hits, coupled with TIE Fighter hits plus asteroid impacts, still out danced the Imperial fighters. The Defiant has absolutely NO chance in winning this engagement.

The beam phasers will score direct hits on the Falcon

,

They will miss wildly. Even with thier 'phaser lock' they won't hit shit.

and those hits will add up over time very quickly.

Not as quickly as turbolaser blasts in the GW range.

Proximity detonation on the torpedoes will give significant long range attack capability

Any stray turbolaser shots did the same thing. Han just cursed at having to keep a lid on his beer.

and the sheer fire of the PPCs will allow the Defiant to saturate fire against the Falcon to act as supression.

LoL. This is laughable. The Defiant will go DOWN.

[Darth Yoshi]

Well, can the Defiant survive reentry unshielded? IIRC, only shuttles and Voyager can do that. Because the unshielded TIEs are capable of withstanding reentry, indicating extremely superconductive armor, and the quads punch through them with no effort. Even if the Defiant is armored, it's not superconductive enough to dissipate blasterfire.

[Master of Ossus]

To be honest, I find it somewhat laughable that some of you claim that the quadlasers are orders of magnitude more powerful than a TF Core Ships's point-defense light laser cannons (8KT per shot max). Certainly we've never seen turret weapons smaller than the Falcon's, so it seems quite reasonable to assume rough parity between said point-defense light laser cannons and the Falcon's quadlasers.

Why? They play completely different roles. Point defense weapons are meant for that--targeting incoming missiles or small asteroids, and perhaps light starfighters. The point defense weapons on an ISD are at least six megatons, and probably much higher. There is significant overlap, here. ISD light turbolasers did target the Falcon in ESB, but medium weapons were used in RotJ, but for the most part point defense cannons are used for point defense unless there are no small targets to be fired upon, in which case it is possible that they would be used for other tasks.

In addition, the quad lasers are considered capital ship weapons (ref. CCG, RPG), so I find it somewhat difficult to believe that they could be less than about 500KT per shot, and they are potentially much higher.

[Cal Wright]

The Defiant has been observed engaging Peregrine and Tac-Fighters. Both are similar in size to the Falcon. When the Defiant engaged these craft, it was doing so under partial capability with downed systems.

Are these as fast or as manuverable as the Falcon? Are their weapons like the quadlaser batteries? There size is irrelevant. Acclamators are the same size as the E-D however one lone Acclamator can BDZ a planet. Something a number of Star Trek ships combined could not do.

The Defiant used its aft facing weapons against the Lakota. The Defiant missed the Lakota only 25% of the time with its PPCs durring the entire battle, and that was because the Defiant rolled while firing.

This is damning proof AGAINST the Defiant.

And the Defiant has shown the ability to make fast rolls when necessary, any such roll would present other sides of the Defiant to the Falcon and prevent the Falcon from sitting on any side.

How fast are these rolls? They aint nothing compared to the Falcon.

And the Defiant can sustain heavy fire from MT level weaponry.

That pales in comparison to weapons that weigh in at hundreds of gigatons.

It displayed the ability to survive 14+ phaser strikes and 2 torpedo strikes from the Lakota while still retaining shields. The Falcon on the other hand can only sustained limited hits from enemy ships. It was nearly torn to pieces by just a small flight of Ties.

Here's a nice term I like to use in a situation. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. The Falcon took numerous direct hits from weapons in the hundreds of gigatons, flakk burst from the same weaponry, TIE Fighter shots, and asteroid impacts. This was more than a small flight of TIEs.

On the contrary the Defiant has dealt with craft the size of the Falcon many times.

Oh yeah, the Falcon has dealt with craft the size of Borg Cubes. Just hundreds of times more powerful. BTW, the Defiant had lots of help against its Borg Cube, but guess who won that outcome?

The Defiant has also shown the ability to roll 90 degrees in under half a second.

The Falcon can DIVE 90* degrees and barrel roll while evading mutiple enemy shots. My dog can do better tricks than yours.

Human reaction time is much slower then that.

So what? Now we're going to put this down to human reaction time? That's fine, Han was in control of the ship during some of it's most memorable manuvers. Lando was in control through some of it's more triumphant manuvers.

Such rolls would allow the Defiant to present its top or bottom phasers to strike the Falcon.

So it does have ventral weaponary. Well, so does the Falcon, and it aint gotta do shit to present anything to the Defiant.

I am pointing out that the Defiant has weapons, shields, and armor dispraportionate to its size.

So does the Falcon. So now we're back to the who would win. The Falcon by the widest margin every.

The tracking capability of the missiles and torpedoes in SW are designed to deal with capital ships which can not evade such missiles.

They also take down starfighters that are far more manuverable than anything Trek has, including the defunct Defiant. What?!? Just because I don't like the EU, doesnt' mean I ignore it. (That was for you HDS!)

Such systems would allow the Falcon to get its missiles aimed in the general direction of the Defiant, but any manuevering or change of direction by the Defiant would render such missiles useless.

Let me thank you in advance. I love this little term I use. I rarely get a chance to use it. BULL-FUCKING-SHIT. The Defiant could perform a Lord of the Dance routine and it would do absolutely nothing to the Falcon's abillity to lock onto it.

The Falcon would have to close range to fire them.

Where do you get all of these magical 'close in on them to fire' excuses from?

You also seem to be ignoring the Defiant's manueverability and capability to fire off axis including its capability to fire significant power from its rear arc.

No. Master of Oasisisisisis and myself have constantly in every post included, broke down and disected the Defiant's manuverability, weapons capability and all around shitty performance in battle against ships that are it's size or larger. These said adversaries are nothing compared to what you will find in Star Wars, and the Falcon handles things just fine in it's universe. However, you have ingored on every post exactly what the Falcon is up against. Listening to Chris O'Farrell will get you no where. Watching the movies a few more times will.

Unless Tie craft fire multi hundred MT level weaponry, I see no way the Falcon can survive an MTL and be threatened by KT level Tie weapons. I have adressed the issue that the Defiant can indeed deal with fighter level craft because Fed ships have shown the ability to detonate torpedoes among groups of fighter craft in the past.

If Star Trek capital ships shieids SUCK, then I doubt seriously that fighter sized craft could handle glancing blows from an X-Wing fighter. Even worse, A-Wing shots, (it's stated that they have a lower yeild than most other fighters.). Nothing in Star Trek even remotely compares to the Falcon, and the Defiant has shown a paultry performance rate in the past.

1. The Falcon is not as maneuverable or fast as the Defiant. This is not true. The Falcon's observed maneuverability and speed are both better than those of the Defiant.

I made no such claim. I said that the Defiants weapon systems and its near capable speed and manueverability make the Falcons speed and manueverability a moot point. Manuevering is limited to reaction time. With the manuevering we have seen the Defiant make, the pilot of the Falcon does not have the reaction time to match such manuvers and that leaves the Falcon open to attack by the Defiants weapons.

Yes you did. Many times in fact. In fact you just said you didn't, then go and say it would be a moot point. You said that the entire reason the Falcon would win is if it got into a manuvering battle, yet you say now it's a moot point. Face the facts everyone, the Defiant hasn't a snowballs chance against the Falcon.

2. The Defiant's weapons would be able to rapidly damage the Falcon, but the Falcon's weapons are very light by comparison. Also, the Defiant's ability to absorb damage is greater than that of the Falcon. This may or may not be true, but it seems highly dubious, based on the evidence that I see. Don't get me wrong, if you have compelling evidence of this I will, of course, concede the point, but I don't see how the firepower of the Defiant can possibly be far higher than that of the Falcon.

Unless you are claiming that Snubfighters carry cannons that are multi hundred MT in power (I have seen claims the LTL is 500 MT), this is absurd. The fact that Ties have died with colissions agaisnt asteroids at relatively low speeds indicate that Snub Fighters do not take so much firepower to kill. Either the snubfighter weaponry is being made to powerful to damage the Falcon, or the capital ship weaponry are underpowered/clipped shots.

[/quote]

TIE Fighters moving slow through that asteroid field? Let's not forget that a car can travel 30mph one direction and another at the same speed, yet thier collision speed will be 60mph. Couple this with mass of one car (asteroid) and anything else the other might have (TIE fuel supply).

THE DEFIANT WILL NOT SO MUCH AS SCRATCH THE PAINT ON THE FALCON.

[Howedar]

To be honest, I find it somewhat laughable that some of you claim that the quadlasers are orders of magnitude more powerful than a TF Core Ships's point-defense light laser cannons (8KT per shot max). Certainly we've never seen turret weapons smaller than the Falcon's, so it seems quite reasonable to assume rough parity between said point-defense light laser cannons and the Falcon's quadlasers.

Why? They play completely different roles. Point defense weapons are meant for that--targeting incoming missiles or small asteroids, and perhaps light starfighters. The point defense weapons on an ISD are at least six megatons, and probably much higher. There is significant overlap, here. ISD light turbolasers did target the Falcon in ESB, but medium weapons were used in RotJ, but for the most part point defense cannons are used for point defense unless there are no small targets to be fired upon, in which case it is possible that they would be used for other tasks.

In addition, the quad lasers are considered capital ship weapons (ref. CCG, RPG), so I find it somewhat difficult to believe that they could be less than about 500KT per shot, and they are potentially much higher.

We've seen quad lasers in the brim trench of ISDs, too: the turret was nearly the size of the Falcon. Quadlaser simply signifies four lasers.

Now, why exactly do you think that the Falcon's turrets are anything but point-defense weapons? Recall the size of the quad-weapons in TMP: they were probably 3-4x the size of the Falcon's turrets.








DG_Cal_Wright, you are so full of shit it isn't even funny. When the hell did the Falcon take a HTL hit, eh?

[seanrobertson]

Kids throwing rocks.

Let's be reasonable here.

The Falcon's guns?

Seeing how that is what the Defiant will be engaging with during this debate.

Err...what?

Are you saying their targetting capabilities are comparable, or what?
I'd give the Falcon the overall edge in accuracy, if only due to
her concussion missiles (which I assume perform like Jango Fett's
missiles in AOTC).

However, if we're comparing beam weapons, I'd say the edge for
the MF ends there. Han and Luke were blasting away at TIEs moving
relative speeds of no more than 100m a second--oftentimes straight
*toward* the Falcon. And that scene lasted over a minute,
as I recall. That's only about one TIE/ten sec. At those relative velocities...I'm sorry. I don't find the quad guns very impressive.

Obviously, because they were already outside the superstructure. They merely had to point up and fly fast.

No, no, I meant ECM wasn't a factor when the Falcon escaped
the DS, en route to Yavin.

//Yet,
I recall Han--and even Luke, with his Force-guided reflexes--missing
TIE Fighters repeatedly with their quad laser cannons.//

Luke was NOT Force aided.

How could he not be?

Any inclinations he had through the force would have been minor. Anakin pod racing has a lot of examples of one that is merely force aided, and not enhanced.

Aided, enhanced--who cares? We're talking about how those with
innate gifts in the Force can "see" things before they actually happen;
thus, they have quick reflexes. There's no reason to assume Luke
didn't have this ability...if anything, there is every reason to think
he DID have this ability: effectively blind, he managed to fight
with that combat droid on the MF pretty well once he "trust his feelings,"
and he did a hell of a job on the DS-1, as I recall.

? Defiant's phasers are far superior to the MF's quad-lasers.

Says who? They work the same way. Immense power dispensed in bursts.
[/quote]

And Don Knott's muscles work the same way as Lee Haney's,
but of the two, only Lee can bench press 550 lbs. Don would struggle
with the empty bar of 45 lbs.

Look at it this way: the MF's guns are designed to blast TIE fighters.
TIEs probably mass a few tons. Defiant routinely blows away
Jem'Hadar fighters and Klingon Birds of Prey. They mass tens
of thousands of tons.

Face it: the _ICS_ sets a firm limit on the firepower of such weapons.
Fett's dual blasters maxed out at 600 GJ a shot; his heavier guns
didn't go above 2 kilotons/shot.

Defiant, meanwhile, has weapons that closely match the effect
of her torpedos. Unless you believe quantum torpedos yield a couple of kilotons, yes, Defiant *definitely* has the advantage there.
It's only a question of how well she could use it to *hit* the MF.

//Probably 1,000x more effective against shields//

?!? Where'd you get those figures from. Fine, if we're just pulling numbers out of the air I'll make this statement. It seems to me that the Defiant's phasers and the Falcon's quads are no different. They are powerful and come in quick bursts.

Powerful and quick are relative terms. In this context, they are meaningless.

I was NOT pulling numbers out of the air...if you were at all familiar
with Michael's work, you should know this.

Take, for example, the fact that Michael figured a photorp might
yield between 100-500 kilotons based on "The Pegasus." A strong
shield can probably take about 10 photorps prior to failure. With
me so far?

Therefore, that strong shield could handle between 1 and 5 megatons
prior to failure. (I think it's actually an order of magnitude higher,
but I'll simply assume you don't care to argue with Michael's figures.)

Anyway, that means Defiant's rapid-fire phasers would have
an equivalent firepower of several hundred kilotons as well AGAINST
SHIELDS. They're in some respects MORE effective because they're
so powerful.

The Falcon's guns, OTOH, have the same effect on ALL targets;
if they can fire at a rate of 2 terawatts, they do that to armor, shields,
ground, and so on. Since the bloody pre-Federation Enterprise
can do THAT, I think it's safe to say, yes, Defiant's got the
beam power advantage by orders of magnitude (roughly corresponding
to 1,000 times greater based on my own figures, which peg a quantorp
at roughly 10 megatons).

low maneuverability, and weak torpedoes. The Falcon has Military grade equipment, which puts it's guns at something like 4-40 GT, I think?
//
No. She's not nearly big enough to mount such weapons, nor do
VFX support such a wild 6 orders of magnitude jump.//

She shouldn't be big enough to mount multiple capital grade shield generators. The Falcon shouldn't have smuggling compartments or a class .5 hyperdrive.

Red Herring and leap in logic. Those gigaton weapons have barrels
over TEN METERS WIDE! The Falcon does NOT have gigaton-yield
anti-starfighter cannons! That is totally ridiculous...I am shocked you're
suggesting it.

Why? The Falcon has capital grade quad lasers. Two in fact. I think we should compare these to capital ships. Salve 1 did not have quad lasers either. side mounted laser canons.

And blasters. Compare the size of the two ships' weapons. Compare
their effects. You can't be suggesting that the MF was shooting
gigaton-ranged weapons at TIE Fighters...

//
The only thing that allows Falcon TO win, IMO, are the concussion
missiles. The MF's guns are DEFINITELY not a threat to Defiant's
defenses--not unless Han managed to stay at range and repeatedly
hit Defiant with one maximum powered hit after another. That
would take time, time that the D wouldn't give them.//

Not just the concussion missiles, but the manuveribility, the hidden laser canons and the dual quad laser canons. Everything the Falcon has IS DEFINITELY a threat to the Defiant. It wouldn't take much time either. The Defiant would be powerless to do anything.

Give me a break...you think those anti-starfighter guns are a threat?
Michael certainly didn't seem to think they would be (see earlier in the thread). You're the only person asserting as much. Ask yourself
why!

//Concussion missiles have to come into play. They could potentially be megaton-ranged weapons if not more. That's what wins the fight for Falcon if she can fire 'em in time//

IF. This is not a question of IF, it's WHEN.

No, it's "if." The Falcon's concussion missile range might not
be all that significant...so far as I know it's an unknown. Defiant has destroyed targets at 50,000 kilometers ("The Die Is Cast"), so Han might wind up with an assload of proximity-detonated quantum torpedos all around him before he has a chance to fire.

[seanrobertson]

Why? They play completely different roles. Point defense weapons are meant for that--targeting incoming missiles or small asteroids, and perhaps light starfighters. The point defense weapons on an ISD are at least six megatons, and probably much higher. There is significant overlap, here. ISD light turbolasers did target the Falcon in ESB, but medium weapons were used in RotJ, but for the most part point defense cannons are used for point defense unless there are no small targets to be fired upon, in which case it is possible that they would be used for other tasks.

In addition, the quad lasers are considered capital ship weapons (ref. CCG, RPG), so I find it somewhat difficult to believe that they could be less than about 500KT per shot, and they are potentially much higher.

With respects, that's simply impossible. A 500 kiloton blast in the
Death Star trench would've done more than force a collision between
Vader and one of his wingman. It certainly would've had greater
effect on a 4m long, unshielded fighter, one of which actually *wasn't*
vaporized by the MF's quad laser hits (note the secondary explosion
following the first...apparently a reactor going boom).

Those quad lasers are almost certainly comparable to similar-sized
weapons on ships like Slave-One, or any other large fighter's
weaponry for that matter. It boils down to low kiloton-range shots
when set at maximum.

As Howedar pointed out, KIM that the "capital grade" quad lasers
seen on the Trade Federation battleships were probably larger
than the ENTIRE Millenium Falcon. The bolts they fired were
at least half the length of the Queen's ship. To assume "capital grade"
must mean "capital power" is a serious misstep.

[Master of Ossus]

1. TIE fighters are more than 4 meters long.
2. The weapons on the TF battleship were not larger than the Falcon. This is easy to figure out from scaling based on the known length of the N-1, as Anakin flys past one of them.
3. Slave 1's main cannons are more powerful than a couple of kilotons. You are using figures for the midship cannons. The firepower of the larger weapons that Slave 1 has are higher. The midship weapons are both very small, rapid-fire weapons. The Falcon's weapons are both much larger and are not designed to spray fire around like the Slave 1's weapons. The midship cannons are designed to pepper an area, scoring hits occasionally. The Falcon's weapons have a far lower rate of fire, and are designed to damage and destroy other starfighters with a few direct hits. The weapons are really not comparable.
4. Slave 1 is not a large starfighter, it is more properly classified as a patrol ship.
5. The Falcon never fired against Vader or his wingman in the Trench. Vader's wingman panicked and caused the collision. Read any of the EU on the material. Also, if it had fired, those starfighters were in line with the Falcon's light laser cannon, and not the quad laser cannon (to my knowledge the Falcon cannot fire those weapons dead forward, like the ships in X-Wing: Alliance).
6. You are assuming that only size affected the firepower of the TF's weapons, when legal restrictions almost certainly played another part in it. Remember that the TF is still trying to maintain the veneer of being a legal organization. Han is under no such compunctions when he is crafting the Falcon. He tries to make it appear beaten up, but he has dozens and probably hundreds of highly illegal modifications done on the Falcon.
7. TIE fighters can withstand micrometeor impacts. The Falcon's inability to vaporize one of them is not a statement that the Falcon's weapons were weak, but rather that the TIE fighter's armor was incredibly strong. Many people fall for the fallacy that because TIE fighters are unshielded they must also be unprotected, but this is not true. TIE fighters have unbelievably strong hulls, relative to both their mass and size. The fact that the Falcon was incapable of vaporizing one of them is not relevent, unless you can show a reasonable limit to how much energy it takes to actually vaporize a TIE fighter.

[seanrobertson]

1. TIE fighters are more than 4 meters long.

6.08m long. Whoops.

2. The weapons on the TF battleship were not larger than the Falcon. This is easy to figure out from scaling based on the known length of the N-1, as Anakin flys past one of them.

They're definitely bigger. Check their recoil mechanisms. The guns
on the MF were closer to the size of the guy *shooting* them;
the guns on a TFB were closer to the size of the Queen's cruiser!

In spite of three decades' advancement, I'm sorry, no--the Falcon's
weapons aren't more powerful than those mounted on a BATTLESHIP.

3. Slave 1's main cannons are more powerful than a couple of kilotons.

Incorrect. The AOTC _ICS_ clearly says otherwise.

You are using figures for the midship cannons. The firepower of the larger weapons that Slave 1 has are higher. The midship weapons are both very small, rapid-fire weapons.

As Palpatine said,

"Yes, I know..."

Those were rated at 600 GJ/shot maximum.

The Falcon's weapons are both much larger and are not designed to spray fire around like the Slave 1's weapons.

? I don't remember the Slave-One doing anything but firing
in a fwd. arc--certainly not spraying fire a'la a Tec-9. Plus, they
couldn't be THAT much larger...the S-1 and MF are pretty similar in
overall size.

The midship cannons are designed to pepper an area, scoring hits occasionally. The Falcon's weapons have a far lower rate of fire, and are designed to damage and destroy other starfighters with a few direct hits. The weapons are really not comparable.

Destroying a few tons of even highly thermo-conductive metal shouldn't
make 500 kilotons a necessity. TIEs are quite small...and as I noted,
one direct hit didn't full "vaporize" a TIE.

4. Slave 1 is not a large starfighter, it is more properly classified as a patrol ship.
5. The Falcon never fired against Vader or his wingman in the Trench. Vader's wingman panicked and caused the collision.

Oh, okay...you're kidding. I get it

Sure the Falcon fired on them! He even scored a hit!

Read any of the EU on the material. Also, if it had fired, those starfighters were in line with the Falcon's light laser cannon, and not the quad laser cannon (to my knowledge the Falcon cannot fire those weapons dead forward, like the ships in X-Wing: Alliance).
6. You are assuming that only size affected the firepower of the TF's weapons, when legal restrictions almost certainly played another part in it. Remember that the TF is still trying to maintain the veneer of being a legal organization.

I know this: Dr. Curtis Saxton said the maximum value per shot from
such weapons was 8 kilotons. Big anti-starfighter guns--while I like
your idea--do not an illegal organization make. Even the Neimodians
have the right to defend their own craft.

Han is under no such compunctions when he is crafting the Falcon. He tries to make it appear beaten up, but he has dozens and probably hundreds of highly illegal modifications done on the Falcon.

Agreed.

7. TIE fighters can withstand micrometeor impacts. The Falcon's inability to vaporize one of them is not a statement that the Falcon's weapons were weak, but rather that the TIE fighter's armor was incredibly strong.

Not necessarily. Micrometeror impacts is rather vague...what velocity
and mass are we talking about? TIEs are, for unshielded craft, quite
tough, but then again, X-Wings are *tougher.* Official material
states that an X-Wing is made of titanium; therefore, TIEs are made
of lesser materials, be it less titanium or whatever else (doesn't really
matter).

I also recall no armored, canon TIE. Most of them are pretty much
what I call "slim pants" ships: all guns and nothing else.

Many people fall for the fallacy that because TIE fighters are unshielded they must also be unprotected, but this is not true. TIE fighters have unbelievably strong hulls, relative to both their mass and size. The fact that the Falcon was incapable of vaporizing one of them is not relevent, unless you can show a reasonable limit to how much energy it takes to actually vaporize a TIE fighter.

Titanium's properties relative to iron are pretty well known...generally
speaking, it takes little more than 3x more energy to vaporize
a given volume of titanium next to iron. X-Wings are made of titanium,
according to at least one official source of which I'm aware (Rogue Squadron
II: Rogue Leader). They're tougher than TIEs, even unshielded. Conclusion: TIEs must be made of lesser materials in some respect.

Besides, come on...realize the properties a ship would require, at
say 10 tons, to require almost 500 KILOTONS to vaporize. I like you,
Ossus, but I'm surprised you're following this. Fighters are great,
but their beam weapons shouldn't have the power to seriously challenge
Defiant's shields. They've got concussion missiles...is that not
enough?

[The Dude]

Titanium's properties relative to iron are pretty well known...generally speaking, it takes little more than 3x more energy to vaporize a given volume of titanium next to iron.

I hate to nitpick, but this is incorrect:

The heat to vapourize 1g of Ti is ~10.9kJ (based on Cp=0.52J/gK, Tv=3562K, Hv=421kJ/mol and Hf=15.4kJ/mol, M=48g/mol).

This means vaping 1cc of Ti requires ~49kJ of energy (melting=6.3kJ/cc)


The heat to vapourize 1g of Fe is ~7.9kJ/g (Cp=0.44J/gK, Tv=3175K, Hv=349kJ/mol and Hf=13.8kJ/mol, M=56g/mol).

This means vaping 1 cc of Fe requires ~62kJ (melting=8.1kJ/cc).

Furthermore, titanium has a lower thermal conductivity than iron at most temperatures, which means it will be more prone to localized thermal damage.

[Cal Wright]

Kids throwing rocks.

Let's be reasonable here.

Trekkies first.

The Falcon's guns?

Seeing how that is what the Defiant will be engaging with during this debate.

Err...what?

Are you saying their targetting capabilities are comparable, or what?
I'd give the Falcon the overall edge in accuracy, if only due to
her concussion missiles (which I assume perform like Jango Fett's
missiles in AOTC).

You just said let's be resonable, then you make this comment? Shall we be resonable? Everyone keeps denoting the Falcon to the missiles. Where as her primary weapons are the quad lasers. The Falcon WILL have gunners, (unless you guys really hope that if she doesn't the Defiant will have a chance.) and in ANH, with Han (some what experienced) and Luke (somehotshot farm kid) take out thier pursuing TIE Fighters. Slow moving someone says? Yeah a couple of thier turns around the Falcon looked pretty slow. Then when they get into the sights of the guns, they rocket off.

However, if we're comparing beam weapons, I'd say the edge for
the MF ends there.

Why? What's the reason there?

Han and Luke were blasting away at TIEs moving
relative speeds of no more than 100m a second--oftentimes straight
*toward* the Falcon.

During thier strafing run. However, if you believe this is damning evidence to the accuracy of the guns, you might want to think again. Either that or watch RotJ. That shows some bitchin as accuracy.

And that scene lasted over a minute,

Where it could have gone on for decades and everyone would have stayed to watch. Where as an episode of Star Trek lasting more than ten seconds and it clears out the fans.

as I recall. That's only about one TIE/ten sec. At those relative velocities...I'm sorry. I don't find the quad guns very impressive.

It should be the gunners you don't find impressive. They were manned FYI.

Obviously, because they were already outside the superstructure. They merely had to point up and fly fast.

No, no, I meant ECM wasn't a factor when the Falcon escaped
the DS, en route to Yavin.

Well that's different. I don't remember what the original post was though.

//Yet,
I recall Han--and even Luke, with his Force-guided reflexes--missing
TIE Fighters repeatedly with their quad laser cannons.//

Luke was NOT Force aided.

How could he not be?

The most we saw Luke use the Force was when Obi Wan was instructing him, then when he was dodging in the trench. It wasn't until Obi Wan spoke to Luke, 'Use the Force Luke.' that we saw him change. He still got plastered by Vader anyways. Luke was GREEN. greener than the foliage of Endor. Yet your using his inability to use a weapon he is unfamiliar with to judge it's accuracy? In RotJ they fucked those TIEs up.

Any inclinations he had through the force would have been minor. Anakin pod racing has a lot of examples of one that is merely force aided, and not enhanced.

Aided, enhanced--who cares? We're talking about how those with
innate gifts in the Force can "see" things before they actually happen;
thus, they have quick reflexes. There's no reason to assume Luke
didn't have this ability...if anything, there is every reason to think
he DID have this ability: effectively blind, he managed to fight
with that combat droid on the MF pretty well once he "trust his feelings,"
and he did a hell of a job on the DS-1, as I recall.

Obviously you do. You brought it up. In fact, in the turret he wasn't 'trusting his feelings'. Dont' forget he kept looking at the targeting screen. On the DS run he was familiar enough with an Incom craft from his skyhopper that he could quickly fly the X-Wing.

? Defiant's phasers are far superior to the MF's quad-lasers.

Says who? They work the same way. Immense power dispensed in bursts.

And Don Knott's muscles work the same way as Lee Haney's,
but of the two, only Lee can bench press 550 lbs. Don would struggle
with the empty bar of 45 lbs.

Hey, you leave Barney Fife out of this pal.

Look at it this way: the MF's guns are designed to blast TIE fighters.
TIEs probably mass a few tons. Defiant routinely blows away
Jem'Hadar fighters and Klingon Birds of Prey. They mass tens
of thousands of tons.

Wrong bucko. The Millinium Falcon's quad lasers are disigned to do what kids? That's right, to allow a smuggler, like Han Solo to escape pursuit from multiple craft and system patrol ships. These ships would include anything from shielded Z-95 Headhunters, Y-Wings, and various other backwater hot rods, not to mention ships like Boba Fett's Slave I, not to mention bloody the nose of Dreadnaughts and other capital ships that constantly keep watch in a system. What good are the lasercannons if you can't even use them to get a ship to back off. Especially one that could blow you to bits or capture you.

Face it: the _ICS_ sets a firm limit on the firepower of such weapons.
Fett's dual blasters maxed out at 600 GJ a shot; his heavier guns
didn't go above 2 kilotons/shot.

However, these are NOT quad laser canons which are found on the Falcon. The core to the trade ships had light point defense laser canons. So basically, because we find these weapons on a capital ship they should automatically be far more powerful than what the Falcon has? Not to mention, that smaller weapons on a ship like Slave I has low power means that larger weapons on the Falcon cannot be any stronger?

Defiant, meanwhile, has weapons that closely match the effect
of her torpedos. Unless you believe quantum torpedos yield a couple of kilotons, yes, Defiant *definitely* has the advantage there.
It's only a question of how well she could use it to *hit* the MF.

//Probably 1,000x more effective against shields//

?!? Where'd you get those figures from. Fine, if we're just pulling numbers out of the air I'll make this statement. It seems to me that the Defiant's phasers and the Falcon's quads are no different. They are powerful and come in quick bursts.

Powerful and quick are relative terms. In this context, they are meaningless.

They are powerful and quick. They can get a lot of damage out to take out a quick enemy or do more damage before the other can do likewise.

I was NOT pulling numbers out of the air...if you were at all familiar
with Michael's work, you should know this.
Take, for example, the fact that Michael figured a photorp might
yield between 100-500 kilotons based on "The Pegasus." A strong
shield can probably take about 10 photorps prior to failure. With
me so far?
Therefore, that strong shield could handle between 1 and 5 megatons
prior to failure. (I think it's actually an order of magnitude higher,
but I'll simply assume you don't care to argue with Michael's figures.)

Anyway, that means Defiant's rapid-fire phasers would have
an equivalent firepower of several hundred kilotons as well AGAINST
SHIELDS. They're in some respects MORE effective because they're
so powerful.

That's pretty obvious that you would want to have a powerful weapon. In fact, a powerful weapon is an effective weapon. I thought everyone knew this.

The Falcon's guns, OTOH, have the same effect on ALL targets;
if they can fire at a rate of 2 terawatts, they do that to armor, shields,
ground, and so on. Since the bloody pre-Federation Enterprise
can do THAT, I think it's safe to say, yes, Defiant's got the
beam power advantage by orders of magnitude (roughly corresponding
to 1,000 times greater based on my own figures, which peg a quantorp
at roughly 10 megatons).

There is no evidence to say that the Falcon's guns do the same amount of damage to ALL targets. None what so ever. We know for a fact that the quadlasers are used on stafighters and other ships besides TIE Fighters.

low maneuverability, and weak torpedoes. The Falcon has Military grade equipment, which puts it's guns at something like 4-40 GT, I think?
//
No. She's not nearly big enough to mount such weapons, nor do
VFX support such a wild 6 orders of magnitude jump.//

She shouldn't be big enough to mount multiple capital grade shield generators. The Falcon shouldn't have smuggling compartments or a class .5 hyperdrive.

Red Herring and leap in logic. Those gigaton weapons have barrels
over TEN METERS WIDE! The Falcon does NOT have gigaton-yield
anti-starfighter cannons! That is totally ridiculous...I am shocked you're
suggesting it

.

Shit, you should see what the other side was suggesting. While I don't actually believe that the Falcon could mount gigaton weaponary, I will say that giving them low estimates based soley (which is what everyone is doing) on the fact they have only taken down TIE Fighters in the movies is just as ludicrous.

Why? The Falcon has capital grade quad lasers. Two in fact. I think we should compare these to capital ships. Salve 1 did not have quad lasers either. side mounted laser canons.

And blasters. Compare the size of the two ships' weapons. Compare
their effects. You can't be suggesting that the MF was shooting
gigaton-ranged weapons at TIE Fighters...

Your right, I aint suggesting that. Then again, who says all capital grade weaponary is gigaton level.

//
The only thing that allows Falcon TO win, IMO, are the concussion
missiles. The MF's guns are DEFINITELY not a threat to Defiant's
defenses--not unless Han managed to stay at range and repeatedly
hit Defiant with one maximum powered hit after another. That
would take time, time that the D wouldn't give them.//

Not just the concussion missiles, but the manuveribility, the hidden laser canons and the dual quad laser canons. Everything the Falcon has IS DEFINITELY a threat to the Defiant. It wouldn't take much time either. The Defiant would be powerless to do anything.

Give me a break...you think those anti-starfighter guns are a threat?
Michael certainly didn't seem to think they would be (see earlier in the thread). You're the only person asserting as much. Ask yourself
why!

Yep. sure as hell do. In fact, I didn't just ask myself why, I explained why as well. Han was a smuggler. He modified the ship with surprises for every occasion. In fact, he anticipated such trouble. (ref ANH novelisation). The possibility that he has quadlasers (seeing how everyone claims that the missiles can only be used when the Falcon is facing directly at it's target) to keep his neck out of trouble from craft ranging from shielded/nonsheilded starfighters all the way up to system patrol craft is almost inarguable in itself.

//Concussion missiles have to come into play. They could potentially be megaton-ranged weapons if not more. That's what wins the fight for Falcon if she can fire 'em in time//

IF. This is not a question of IF, it's WHEN.

No, it's "if." The Falcon's concussion missile range might not
be all that significant...so far as I know it's an unknown. Defiant has destroyed targets at 50,000 kilometers ("The Die Is Cast"), so Han might wind up with an assload of proximity-detonated quantum torpedos all around him before he has a chance to fire.

[/quote]

Sort of like how he had an assload of turbolaser shots, TIE shots and asteroids in his cockpit. It's WHEN.

[Cal Wright]

DG_Cal_Wright, you are so full of shit it isn't even funny. When the hell did the Falcon take a HTL hit, eh?

Hey look, slapnuts talks shit! I actually wasn't paying attention when I replied on that note. However, I did mean that the Falcon was taking hits from the turbolaser emplacements on the ISD, not to mention the TIE Fighter shots. BTW, when you get a chance, go fuck yourself.

[Howedar]

Oooh, was da poow widda baby unable to defend his point, thus resorting to swearing? Too fucking bad.

[TheDarkling]

Hmmm trouble in paradise?

The warsies attack each other and when they are distracted - then we strike.

[Howedar]

I am not a Warsie, whatever my signature may say. I am an unbiased presenter of the facts. That this typically leaves me defending Wars is not my concern.

[Cal Wright]

Oooh, was da poow widda baby unable to defend his point, thus resorting to swearing? Too fucking bad.

No, my point was that the Falcon was being rocked by multiple blasts that would shred a Star Trek capital ship. The point that I replied incorrectly on HTLs was my fault. However, I believe your the one that said I was full of SHIT. Awe, I'm so sorry. Did I just rain on fucknuts parade. Silly troll, posts are for debates.

[seanrobertson]

This is what I'm talking about. Screw the "Trekkies" input or who
did what; it's irrelevant. We're talking about the yield of the
Falcon's quad lasers.

But to be sure, kids throwing rocks is hyperbole. I've never seen
a kid hit a target 100m away or more, as Defiant has.

Because that should be where her real power lies. It's perfectly reasonable
to assume that those weapons (which, incidentally, weren't much bigger
or longer than Luke *or* Han) are comparable in power to a heavily armed, similarly sized ship like Slave One. The Fetts were bounty hunters,
after all...to be sure they liked to equip their ship with "surprises" as
well.

With respect, so what? That doesn't mean anything relative to how
they stack up to their missiles. The quad lasers are probably meant
to handle fighters. We've only seen them *used* against fighters.
Why should they be hundreds of times more powerful than Slave-One's primary weapons?
Moving in a straight line, no less. Their accuracy is pretty good for
manual targetting, but then, they're not fixed-axis weapons like
Defiant's pulse phaser cannons. It's not a valid comparison.

Besides, I'm more concerned with their comparative power outputs.
Note that I haven't said once that the D could hit the MF with pulse
phasers...
Patience, young Jedi. See below.
"The Rebels are massing a fleet near Sullust."

*"Yes, I know."*

My point is simply that I feel you're bashing Defiant's accuracy
based on a handful of shots, at best. By similar logic, the MF's
accuracy wouldn't be all that great, either. The bigger picture, as you
say, confirms that MF has quite good accuracy (it probably helped
that the pilots didn't have to man the guns in ROTJ). Defiant...
well, the D doesn't have *that* great accuracy, but it's not as
rotten as you made it out to be IMO.

Some Trek is boring. Other Trek can be great, though.

I'm not thinking about what constitutes "entertainment"; I'm looking
strictly at events as they're depicted onscreen. We are, after all,
suspending disbelief and, therefore, treating what we see as "real."

Why not make such a qualification for Defiant? Again, that is
overstatement on my part to try to show you the trouble with comparing
Defiant to kids armed with rocks.

Well, he used the Force when he was playing with that floating sphere
and the lightsabre.

And I agree he was green, but in TPM, so was Anakin (at what? Six
or seven?). Even then, Qui-Gon explained, Anakin's innate Force
abilities "allowed him to see things before they happened," giving
him great reflexes in effect (thus his ability to win the big race
and/or fly the Naboo fighter into the TF Control Ship).

Luke and Leia's abilities, even when untrained (e.g., Luke calling
to Leia in TESB), should be at least somewhat similar to their fathers.
I admit, I assumed this should give Luke similar reflexes, if not
quite up to those of his father.


But what's the difference? I don't remember making such a qualification.
I just said it's a part of him and, unless he was *trying* to miss the
TIEs, those sense should've helped him nail a few (and perhaps
did).
Very well...I imagine he's had enough trouble over the years with
his single bullet in the pocket.

But I think you see my point: "powerful" is a meaningless term
without a context, and the two are different for the Falcon
and Defiant (well, in my judgment...).
Sure...and I should've backed off the specificity WRT TIEs alone, but
my point was that they've only been seen used against fighter-craft.
I certainly don't remember them being used against capships.

I can see them used against Y-Wings, which are purported to have
strong shields; however, Vader and his wingman made quick work
of Ys in the DS trench--Ys that had their rear deflectors powered up.
If a TIE fires, say, a dozen volleys a second (24 shots total), and
each shot carries about a kiloton of energy, obviously that's 24 kilotons/sec.
Quite awesome. Yet, it didn't take a full second of bombarding
a Y to get through its shields and kill it. At most, two seconds of
continuous direct hits should do the job.

That's under 50 kilotons. Since when has the Falcon had
weapons that could kill a Y-Wing ten times over?

Same said for the Z-95. Isn't it a primitive X-Wing? This link is
about all I have to go by:

http://www.starshipmodeler.com/starwars/jl_pre_z95.htm

So, again, the question is, since when has the Falcon been
able to blow one of these things away 10 times over? (I'd assume
its shields are actually inferior to the Y-Wings'.)

Light for a ship of that size, perhaps. And the Trade Federation
Core Ship, with a vastly superior peak reactor output to the Falcon,
still maxed point defense guns out at 8 kilotons/shot. How could
the Falcon's much smaller weapons (barely longer than a man,
if that) put out almost 100x that?
Those weapons are all far closer in scale than the Falcon's would
be next to a TFCS. Indeed, Slave-One has the following dimensions:

length 21.5m; wingspan 21.3m; depth (excluding guns) 7.8m.

Falcon:

span 27m/89'; length 34.8m/114'; depth 6.9m/22.4'.

These ships are remarkably similar in size. The MF is a bit
bigger, but the quad-lasers are not so oversized as to make this
comparison misleading; i.e., http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/mf/turret.htm.

Note that the seated gunner in the sketches is, in fact, a far bit
taller than the guns are long.

Compare that to Slave One's weapons, mounted on the "tail":

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/slave/exterior.gif

Pay special attention to the very bottom of the .gif. Note Fett's
height compared to those guns? Granted, they're not quad-lasers,
and it's certainly possible quad lasers are more powerful weapons,
but to assume they're vastly different, on the order of 100 times
more powerful, seems like a major slap in the face to Fett, among
other things.

Only in context. A Shadow Planet Killer is very powerful...in Babylon
5. Put it against a Death Star and "powerful" turns to "weak." Without
a context, anything can be quick or powerful in a relative vacuum.
"Want" is irrelevant. We're comparing effects. You do not argue
with said effects? Ok: we can move on, then.

Of course there's evidence to say they always have X terawatts effect
(or X gigawatts perhaps) on all targets: they're DET weapons.
They *don't* have rapid nadion effects and some stupid subspace
crap contributing to their effect.

If we have nothing else to go on...and since those TIEs were NOT
instantly vaporized, turn to similar-sized craft, as I did.

And you did say something about gigaton weapons: The Falcon has Military grade equipment, which puts it's guns at something like 4-40 GT, I think?

Ah well, I think that's enough for now...we're getting long, here

[Connor MacLeod]

A few misc details.

1.) No multi GT weapon has a barrel of ten meters in SW that I am aware of.

2.) X-wings do apparently use titanium, but they also incorporate some sort of exotic material.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/xwing/eu.html

"This supplements the hardened titanium armor alloy of the X-wing. The expensive and high-strength alloy sedrellium is used to reinforce the X-wing's hull."

TIEs use a metal known as "Quadanium steel" - its used, IIRC BTM correctly, in the hull armor of the DS as well as the armoring covering turbolaser turrets.

3.) The Trade Federation "Core ship" is equipped with 280 poitn defense lasers that have a max yield of 8 kilotons. The bigger "quadlaser" turrets on the "ring" section of the Trade Fed battleships are not rated, to my knowledge. Just a reminder so we are sure not to mix up the two.

4.) There are a few examples of the Falcon firing on larger craft with quadlasers, if memory serves. In "Han Solo at Star's End" the Falcon fired on a 115 meter "Auithority lighter" - doing not much real damage admittedly, but some. However, as this is appaerntly a converted freighter, and not a purpose-built warship, this might not be applicable.

5.) The Falcon's armaments appear to have undergone a number of changes in armaments as time has progressed. Its acquired at various points: turbolaser turrets (NJO era mostly), "Dennia Quads" - overbore laser cannons apparently derived from Dreadnaught cruisers (capital scale?)- This from the Black Fleet crisis. In "courtship of Princess LEia" the Falcon had an ion cannon, and proton torpedo tubes as well as concussion missiles and the quadlasers. In "The Lando Calrissian adventures" it had a single twin turret topside with light guns, and a side mounted quad gun battery, and apparently little else.

I figure its somewhat feasible for the Falcon to have acquired at some later date (as apart o fa upgrade or alteration) capital-grade lasers.) PErhaps comparable to the core ship guns or maybe slightly more powerful... maybe they are severeal tens of kilotons. Hard to say, and mostly irrelevant.

My point is that its possible for the Falcon to, during the "canon" trilogy, have been mounted with low kiloton-scale guns, but at some later point refitted the ship with more powerful ones (just as the armaments changed according to both owner and timeframe). I must admit that i do find it unlikely that the weapons are even low MT range.. I could kinda buy 500 kt perhaps.. maybe 100 kt is more probable... but MT range is a TAD too high. Not impossible, just unrealistic.

GT range fighter weapons are flat out impossible. Whoever voted for that is looney.

I suppose one should point otu that laser cannons DO compensate for their relatively lower damage with quite a bit higher rates of fire. If we assumed around 6-8 bolts per gun per second, and say 4 kilotons per bolt... thats around 24-32 kilotons per gun each second. Ideally, it might be even higher (sevreal bolts per barrel per second even... consider how rapidly slave-1's guns fired!)

And of course it does depend on what otuput figures you use. IIRC the FAlcon's guns could be quite powerful enough to damage the Defiant if, for example, one used the "isoton" level torpedo values

[Howedar]

How exactly do we know that the quad guns seen on the TF battleship in TPM are different from the ICS weapons?

[seanrobertson]

A few misc details.

1.) No multi GT weapon has a barrel of ten meters in SW that I am aware of.

If it existed, you'd be the first to know!

2.) X-wings do apparently use titanium, but they also incorporate some sort of exotic material.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/starship/xwing/eu.html

"This supplements the hardened titanium armor alloy of the X-wing. The expensive and high-strength alloy sedrellium is used to reinforce the X-wing's hull."

TIEs use a metal known as "Quadanium steel" - its used, IIRC BTM correctly, in the hull armor of the DS as well as the armoring covering turbolaser turrets.

Interesting. There's no telling what sort of relative toughness that
stuff might have...

Now, am I incorrect in saying that the Falcon didn't totally
vaporize a few of the TIEs she shot? The last one destroyed
seemed to explode a bit, then explode more violently, as if
the ship was partially intact and somehow contributed to the explosion
itself.

Not that such is damning evidence against kilotonnage/bolts...I'd
expect Han to have such weapons, though I am more comfortable
in treating them like Slave One's 600 GJ/shot weapons.

3.) The Trade Federation "Core ship" is equipped with 280 poitn defense lasers that have a max yield of 8 kilotons. The bigger "quadlaser" turrets on the "ring" section of the Trade Fed battleships are not rated, to my knowledge. Just a reminder so we are sure not to mix up the two.

Alright. I guess I leapt to that conclusion simply because some of
the shots that were hitting repair droids in TPM *seemed* to be
coming from the big quad guns, yet their damage appeared to
be more consistent with the 8 kiloton weapons.

4.) There are a few examples of the Falcon firing on larger craft with quadlasers, if memory serves. In "Han Solo at Star's End" the Falcon fired on a 115 meter "Auithority lighter" - doing not much real damage admittedly, but some. However, as this is appaerntly a converted freighter, and not a purpose-built warship, this might not be applicable.

That's still not bad...

5.) The Falcon's armaments appear to have undergone a number of changes in armaments as time has progressed. Its acquired at various points: turbolaser turrets (NJO era mostly), "Dennia Quads" - overbore laser cannons apparently derived from Dreadnaught cruisers (capital scale?)- This from the Black Fleet crisis. In "courtship of Princess LEia" the Falcon had an ion cannon, and proton torpedo tubes as well as concussion missiles and the quadlasers.

Interesting. I was primarily concerned with her armament circa ANH,
but that's potentially forcing an artificial limitation on her capabilities--mostly because I'm ignorant of much of the EU.

I bet the MF *could* power capital-scale weapons. Padme's barge
was capable of a 3E12 MW peak reactor output, though it was a bit
larger than the Falcon. A 3 million TW reactor is potentially
more powerful than Federation capships, depending on how far one
goes to rationalize all of the crazy disparate dialogue we have (LaForge's
"normally kicks plasma up into the TW range," Data's 12.75 billion
GW per," etc.).

Anyway, I digress...with similar power sources, the Falcon could
at least charge and fire high megaton-ranged level weapons at
a decent rate.

In "The Lando Calrissian adventures" it had a single twin turret topside with light guns, and a side mounted quad gun battery, and apparently little else.

I figure its somewhat feasible for the Falcon to have acquired at some later date (as apart o fa upgrade or alteration) capital-grade lasers.) PErhaps comparable to the core ship guns or maybe slightly more powerful... maybe they are severeal tens of kilotons. Hard to say, and mostly irrelevant.

My point is that its possible for the Falcon to, during the "canon" trilogy, have been mounted with low kiloton-scale guns, but at some later point refitted the ship with more powerful ones (just as the armaments changed according to both owner and timeframe). I must admit that i do find it unlikely that the weapons are even low MT range.. I could kinda buy 500 kt perhaps.. maybe 100 kt is more probable... but MT range is a TAD too high. Not impossible, just unrealistic.

Agreed. If the dreadnought's weapons are capable of as much, the
Falcon could wield some devastating weapons, but the quad lasers
wouldn't be it.

GT range fighter weapons are flat out impossible. Whoever voted for that is looney.

Yeah, I'm with you.

I suppose one should point otu that laser cannons DO compensate for their relatively lower damage with quite a bit higher rates of fire. If we assumed around 6-8 bolts per gun per second, and say 4 kilotons per bolt... thats around 24-32 kilotons per gun each second. Ideally, it might be even higher (sevreal bolts per barrel per second even... consider how rapidly slave-1's guns fired!)

Good point. And that *would* be enough to start threatening the
Defiant's shields, even if one believes (as I do) that photorps
are closer to megatonnage than they are a 100 kt or so.

And of course it does depend on what otuput figures you use. IIRC the FAlcon's guns could be quite powerful enough to damage the Defiant if, for example, one used the "isoton" level torpedo values

Heh, yeah

If that was the case, even gigawatt-ranged weapons would be enough,
since a single ton of TNT is like 4.18 gigajoules.

Isotonnage does apparently mean something other than "equal to
tons," since throughout some of the latter-day Trek tons and isotons
were both commonly used units. I think the iso means something
like "equal parts" or somesuch, though of what I have no idea.
It might pertain to the way torpedos damage a target with real-space
radiation and something in the dreaded subspace. That's just
a guess, though, based on the fact that the Borg mines in "Scorpion"
were going to blast nanoprobes around FTL.

[Connor MacLeod]

How exactly do we know that the quad guns seen on the TF battleship in TPM are different from the ICS weapons?

I take it you havent seen the Ep 1 ICS compared to the Ep2 ICS. The weapons on the TF battleship are QUITE large and visible on a 3+ km diameter warship. The 280 point defense lasers mounted on the Core ship from the AOTC ICS aren't even visible on the ship (to my knowledge.)

IIRC, the Ep2 ICS also mentioned that the addition of the poitn defense lasers was a post-Naboo addition. I'll have to double check though

[His Divine Shadow]

I bet the MF *could* power capital-scale weapons. Padme's barge
was capable of a 3E12 MW peak reactor output, though it was a bit
larger than the Falcon. A 3 million TW reactor is potentially
more powerful than Federation capships, depending on how far one
goes to rationalize all of the crazy disparate dialogue we have (LaForge's
"normally kicks plasma up into the TW range," Data's 12.75 billion
GW per," etc.)

Well, at 3 million TW and assuming it could direct 10% of that to a weapons capacitor bank, thats 71MT/second.

It could easily generate such power, ofcourse then there is the problem of how much energy is really used by the other systems, there are shields, engines, IC fields, gravity fields and such.

Even so, even if we assume we only have 1% of that aviable, we're still left with 3000TW for the weapons, they could fire one 1MT pulse every second and a half or so.

Ofcourse I think the real problem are the weapons systems, can they take the heat so to speak? Can the capacitor charge that much energy? Can the power transfer system take all that energy in one burst? Will the cooling systems work? And so on...