So...

[TheDarkling]

They may have millions of ships (we only have evidence that points to thousands) but the Borg also have thousands of ships and this new enemy may have Billions of ships - they dont know thats the point here, they just dont know.

She didnt attack them, they attacked here, she kept asking them to back off.

Evil Jerk: 8472's sensor range is? we dont know what exactly they knew remember, this new enemy could have had a fleet of 1000's just a sector or two out of sensor range but within Fed comm range (Comm range > Sensor range), and the Fed high command could already have knowledge of the weapon.

Assuming a defensive posture makes sense when faced with a huge lack of info and possibly an attack on your homeland.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: They didnt know that Voyager was alone in the DQ this proves they didnt have full access rights to Kes' head - I have stated this before but the thread is moving fast so I will let you off.

Also you can retreat and it not be cowardice you know.

[Evil Jerk]

They may have millions of ships (we only have evidence that points to thousands) but the Borg also have thousands of ships and this new enemy may have Billions of ships - they dont know thats the point here, they just dont know.

Give me a break, they cannot have been that ignorant.

She didnt attack them, they attacked here, she kept asking them to back off.[/quote]

Who cares who started it? They were still at war.

Evil Jerk: 8472's sensor range is? we dont know what exactly they knew remember, this new enemy could have had a fleet of 1000's just a sector or two out of sensor range but within Fed comm range (Comm range > Sensor range), and the Fed high command could already have knowledge of the weapon.

Jeez! When they're after an otherwise inferior ship who just happens to have a weapon that gives them a bit of parity, they shouldn't go thinking about every single what if in the universe, and nobody does.

Assuming a defensive posture makes sense when faced with a huge lack of info and possibly an attack on your homeland.

It's better to wait for the enemy to go to them with the weapon of doom?

[Darth Wong]

SirNitram: They didnt know that Voyager was alone in the DQ this proves they didnt have full access rights to Kes' head - I have stated this before but the thread is moving fast so I will let you off.

Yet again, you repeat the black/white fallacy; they either have "full access" or they had nothing? They were only interested in ONE THING aboard Voyager. By arguing that they knew nothing about that ONE THING, you are essentially arguing that they knew nothing.

Also you can retreat and it not be cowardice you know.

Only if your tactical situation is hopeless. They could have easily destroyed Voyager despite its new weapons. They chose to run instead, therefore they are cowards. Even if they weren't 100% sure that Voyager had the only examples of the weapon, it's certainly worth a FEW DOZEN CASUALTIES at MOST in order to find out. Face it; they're cowards.

[TheDarkling]

No its better to have the bulk of you forces in enemy terrioritory (a different enemy I might add) while an enemy slips into your land and destroys your infrastructure (they were very protective of their realm remember).

Its not an unreasonable assumption to make that if one enemy ship has this weapon they would have reported it to they HQ (they had wide ranging TP remmeber and their main enemy the Borg did aswell (after a fashion) so assumption that you enemy is always in contact with others of its kind could be made).

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: They didnt know that Voyager was alone in the DQ this proves they didnt have full access rights to Kes' head - I have stated this before but the thread is moving fast so I will let you off.

Also you can retreat and it not be cowardice you know.

Yes, it can be a valiant, strategic withdrawl.

One maaaaajor problem, Darkling: They ran from a single ship when they retained massive firepower advantages. This is always cowardice, or in some cases, insanity. Take yer pick.

I should point out Voyager didn't know it was alone either. They had already encountered proof Federation vessels had come this way(Seven Of Nine). They may have also bumped into the Equinox and Relativity, but I'm not sure of the dates on those.

[TheDarkling]

Voyager says back off or we will keep using the weapon.

Now they dont know if others have access to the weapon (in your analysis just you assumed that it was likely no one else did however the opposite assumption (that others do have access) is the more likely one to make but lets play it your way).

So they dont know if Voyager has this tech to itself or if theres a fleet of 1000's out there packing it, they can
A)Destroy Voyager and risk an all outwar.
B)Back off and prepare defense against a fleet attack whilst hoping Voyager wont attack.
C)Pull back and gather Intel about what they are up against whilst preparing defenses.

If they did A they may win outright or they may doom themselves, the other 2 options while they wont lead to all out victory they wont lead to the worst losses either.

If they knew Voyager had the only copy of the weapon and that once Voyager was gone the threat was ended then yes they would be cowards however you havent proved they knew, the most logical assumption on their part would be that Voyager had told its command about the weapon and they didnt know the capabilities of this command so they choose to 1) Assume defensive posture against a possible attack 2) Gather intel on possible enemy.

You are all working off the basis that 8472 knew what we do - I have shown they dont know everything we know therefore your assumptions are baseless.

[TheDarkling]

Thats a giant Red herring because those instances you speak of dont detract from the fact that Kes knew the ship was on its own against 8472.

However I will deal with them

1)The equivox was found later.
2)The raven was destroyed and at this point Kes had no knowledge of Sevens origin.

[SirNitram]

Thats a giant Red herring because those instances you speak of dont detract from the fact that Kes knew the ship was on its own against 8472.

However I will deal with them

1)The equivox was found later.
2)The raven was destroyed and at this point Kes had no knowledge of Sevens origin.

Yet they saw proof of a Federation ship coming this way. That opens the possibility others did as well. That any ship could come here, and presumably they knew research was being done on the Borg, suggests they might not be alone. And of course, humans are irrational things.. They like to think somewhere out there there could be someone with them.

And as Darth Wong stated, they weren't looking for more ships like Voyager.. They were looking in Kes' mind for the weapon.

[Kamakazie Sith]

IIRC the Dominion attack was critical because a large starfleet force was on it's way to reinforce DS9, if that fleet would have arrived while DS9 was still in UFP control then they would have been unable to capture it.

No, that was the Klingon attack. And it was only a group of thirty or so Klingon ships. IIRC, they lost more than that many ships while attacking the station. The Dominion attack was under no such time pressure. The UFP's fleet was off attacking the Dominion's AQ shipyards (which has always struck me as being moronically stupid. The destruction of the shipyards would have been irrelevent if the Dominion had moved more quickly against DS9). After the minefield was established, they would have had between several hours and several weeks to capture the station before anything else happened.

Your right. In DS9 "A Call to Arms" the reason I thought this was because at the end of the episode you see the Defiant and General Martoks ship link up with a large UFP fleet, which is heading in the direction the Defiant and Co. came from....however they never mentioned if they were going to try and launch a counter-offensive to retake DS9.

[Master of Ossus]

Your right. In DS9 "A Call to Arms" the reason I thought this was because at the end of the episode you see the Defiant and General Martoks ship link up with a large UFP fleet, which is heading in the direction the Defiant and Co. came from....however they never mentioned if they were going to try and launch a counter-offensive to retake DS9.

I don't think that the Federation could have possibly launched a counter-offensive to retake the station, at that time. For one thing, if they had been planning to, they should have already done it while the station was largely disabled and incapable of aiding the Dominion's defense of the station. Also, the Federation fleet was likely a considerable distance from DS9, because the Dominion fleet was unable to respond when the Federation attacked their shipyards. Finally, the Federation fleet had just launched a major offensive and it is unlikely that they could have launched a second important offensive without at least taking time out to repair their damaged ships from their own attack.