3 TD's against a glaxy class ship

[Lex]

3 Tie Defenders against a Galaxy class ship(take the enterprise if u want)

who will take the win?

[Admiral Drason]

The ties would make the Galaxy class go boom. Remeber those ties have about 20 proton torps thats enough to kill 20 galaxys.

[Cpt_Frank]

The TIE defenders have nasty nasty torpedoes with GT level firepower, so they win.

[Lex]

nothing else expected but what about 1 T/D? i dont know enuf about the galaxy class to know about it shields and torpedos...

[Mr Bean]

Can carry GT level Torps

However normaly they carry focues Anti-Fighter/small capship torps which can do high fraqitions of C and are roughly equivlant to Quantum Torps

So 6 Torps=Dead Galaxy class

[Lagmonster]

Would it be safe to assume that a GC only needs a few lucky hits on the TIE and it goes poof, regardless of how better armed the TIE is?

[Lex]

T/D's have strong shields and they are much faster than a GC class ship

[Mr Bean]

Lag, The TIE/Defender is supposed to be able to take two of those Anti-Fighter/Capship Torps and survive

They have roughly have the shielding of a Galaxy class in other words(100-120 MTX2=200-240 MT of shielding, Galaxys have 450 -600 Tops)

[Lagmonster]

Lag, The TIE/Defender is supposed to be able to take two of those Anti-Fighter/Capship Torps and survive

Sounds right. I'm afraid I'm barely familiar with the Defender model.

[Stravo]

Can we TRY and make this fair for the GCS? How about an Imperial escape pod with a faulty viewscreen BUT it has a stormtrooper with a sniper rifle?

[seanrobertson]

Lag, The TIE/Defender is supposed to be able to take two of those Anti-Fighter/Capship Torps and survive

Sounds right. I'm afraid I'm barely familiar with the Defender model.

Guys, guys, guys...this TIE Defender business again?

In the Tactical Cube vs. TIE-D squadron thread, the debate essentially
boiled down to Adam Gerhls and myself. No one objected to our agreement
on the likely yield of such protorps; i.e., probably around or less than
the yields of Jango Fett's 191 megaton missiles. With all respect,
where in the hell did gigaton missiles come from? That thing's missile
launchers are TINY. It's arguable that they're *not* missile launchers
at all.

I also recall that the Defenders carried no more than 4 such weapons.
That's enough to kill a Galaxy-class starship and then some,
in my opinion (you'll notice I tend to aim for more conservative
figures for both Wars AND Trek ). However, it's not the overwhelming
shoo-in I'm seeing in this thread.

As for shields, I wouldn't peg them anywhere near gigatonnage...frankly,
I think that's ridiculous. I hate to put it that bluntly, but there's simply
zero proof of any fighter-sized craft taking that much energy. Even much,
MUCH bigger ships--the Queen's transport, Millenium Falcon--
would have trouble with *that* kind of energy.

There's a lot more to say, but it's pretty much re-hashing the Tac cube
vs. TIE-D thread all over again. I think 3 TIE-Ds could pull off a victory,
though they're by no means well-protected against E-D level weapons.
One hit--BAM. Dead TIE, IMO.

[Vympel]

Yeah I'm interested where the heck these gigaton missiles came from too- I've never heard of that.

[seanrobertson]

Yeah I'm interested where the heck these gigaton missiles came from too- I've never heard of that.

I don't doubt that fighters can carry such projectiles, but Defenders?
Nah. I know of no proof to substantiate anything even close to
that claim; e.g., a Defender used a missile against a planetary
target and created a crater X kilometers in diameter.

This is what my fellow Babtech analyst Adam Gerhls
(who is, IMO, an expert regarding the SW EU) says
about Defender missiles:

4.) Concussion missiles. Forget the ones that Slave-1 mounts. They're far too large to be mounted on the TIE defender (for one thing, they're a meter long.. I don't recall anyplace where they could mount those.) They'd have to be externally racked to be carried.

Odds are, I'd bet on using proton torpedoes more. Fighter-scale protorps have about the same damage potential as the missiles the slave-1 mounts (if we assume they're comparable to the Falcon, which is not unreasonable since they are of similar size and shaping). While its true the torpedoes are a lot slower acceleration wise, they still pack megaton-range firepower (191 megatons, in this case).

And this is my take on a Defender's shielding, from the same thread
(Tactical cube vs. TIE Defender squadron...should still be on page 2
of this forum).


Vader managed to shoot down Y-Wings pretty quickly,
with a couple of barrages. If his TIE had powered up his
shots to 2 kT apiece and he killed a Y with about 10 direct
hits, the Y's shields could withstand, obviously, 20 kT.

The Y-Wing is 16m long, slightly over twice the length
of a Defender,6.97m according to the TIE Fighter page
at SWTC. Given the Y's relative sluggishness next to other
fighters, it supposedly relies heavily on shields to protect it
in combat. The size disparity suggests that it'd difficult to put
far stronger shields in the Defender chassis, though the
Defender is newer, developed shortly after the Battle of Hoth.

Size isn't everything in designing a well-protected starship,
but it seems that when one gets down to a TIE-sized craft, it's very,
very hard to power shield generators capable of fending off other
fighter's attacks--if, that is, they have enough room for shield
generators whatsoever. Remember that NO standard TIE had
shields. To suggest you could go from zero joules of protective
energy to over 4E18J is ludicrous when we're dealing with a modest
increase in the fighter size at hand.

The Defender also has ion cannons, multiple laser cannons, missile launchers, and three ion engines to power along with those shields.
To guess that its shields are several times that of a Y-Wing or
X-Wing, especially the former, might be reasonable given *extreme* technological advancement, but where is the evidence for that?

For the sake of argument, we could say that each Defender can
withstand 100 kilotons. I think that's pretty out of whack for the
reasons noted above, plus the fact that TIEs have NEVER relied
on shields to whip their opponents. That ignores the whole purpose
of TIE Fighters in general, ships that are made to *evade* hits and
deliver a devastating barrage of lasers.

Even supposing a breakthrough in shield miniaturization came
along in time for the D's development, one has to wonder why
these craft weren't deployed at Endor. If they're so far and beyond
your ordinary TIE or Interceptor, the Imperials would be *fools* to
not use them. That implies their shields actually *aren't* all that
great. Like X and Y-Wings, they can take glancing hits, but any
number of direct hits should be fatal.

(In response to the thought my examples might've been out
of context, as in the Y-Wings in ANH not being "fresh"/having
taken damage and/or not angling their deflectors to repel Vader's
attacks...)

...Also, though I'm emphasizing Y-Wings, we could just as
easily talk about any other conflict between Rebel and Imperial
fighters, Naboo and Trade Federation fighters, or whatever. I
seem to remember supposedly well-shielded craft like X-Wings
dying shortly after the pilot in ROTJ says, "There's...too many of
them!" Did hundreds, dozens, or even several TIEs target just him
that we could tell? Nah. He was hit by the fire from maybe one or
two other fighters, and died almost instantly. To justify the whole
"fighters have megaton-class shields" spiel we'd have to ignore
quite a lot.

[Spartan]

This was my analysis on starfighter weapons and shields:

The Millennium Falcon firepower thread got me to thinking about. What kind of power outputs and shielding can realistically be attributed to SW light craft (ships under 100 meters).

Here is my analysis:

Quote:

form SW2ICS:

Manufacturer: Theed Palace Space Vessel Engineering Corps
Make: J-type custom-built diplomatic barge
Dimensions: Length 39m;width 91m; depth 6.8m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 2,000 kHz
Max. acceleration (in space): 2,500G
Power: main reactor peak 3e12 MW; peak shielding 6e12 MW
Hyperdrive: Nubian 288 cores; S-6 generators (class 0.7; range 80,000 light
years fully fueled)

Now the Naboo Diplomatic Courier has a power output of 3.0E18W, and peak shielding rated at 6.0E18W (that’s 1,428 megaton per second).

The Naboo Royal Yacht that Anakin takes to Tatooine has a reactor output of 7.0E18W and a peak shield rating of 2.0E18W (ie. 476 megaton per second)

I wonder if the shield rating and power output were switched for the Diplomatic Courier. First off its the only vessel in the book with a peak shielding greater than its reactor output. Secondly, if its not a typo then why does the royal yacht have shielding that's so much weaker?


Neither of these vessels are so much larger than the MF that they should have reactor outputs or peak shielding orders of magnitude greater. And once we take into account that the Falcon, has been modified to have a more powerful power plant, and shields. All three vessels should be in the same ballpark.

We also know from Darth Wong’s Calcs. from TESB, that the Avenger was hitting the Falcon with at minimum 3.5 megaton turbolaser shots. The imps wanted them alive so they, had to know the Falcon could survive those shots. The implication being that even a stock YT-1300 Transport has megaton range shielding, and by definition power output of 1.5E16W. Even if the Falcon's reactor output is only 1 percent of the Diplomatic courier, say 3.0E16W that's 30,000 TW.

Seeing as Slave1 and the Falcon mix it up regularly, without either side having a clear advantage. Slave1' shielding and reactor output must be comparable.

On to Starfighters:

A light fighter such as a TIE interceptor has (4) 1kt laser cannons. If each can fire 20 shot per second the total power output is 3.4E14W solely to power its weapons.

Assuming a TIE interceptor masses 6 metric tons it requires at least 1.35E14J to accelerate to one half light speed. If a TIE can reach that velocity in one minute then, the power output would be 3.75E10W.


And finally Darth Wong has a calc which scales the energy required for an ISD to make a hyperjump down to the size of a fighter.

Quote:
Starfighter propulsion systems also produce a prodigious amount of power: TIE fighters easily overcome the 6E7 J/kg minimum energy requirement for escaping the gravity of a planet, and by comparing the size of a TIE fighter with the size of a Star Destroyer we can compute that hyperdrive-equipped TIE fighters most likely consume at least 1E15 J every time they jump into hyperspace, assuming that hyperjump energy requirements are proportional to volume.

Since the hyperdrive is the most energy intensive system on any SW vessel. The upper limit for the power output of any fighter should be around 1E15W. Since hyperdrive equiped fighters are not 10-100 time more powerful than straight TIES. Their power output should be at least 1E14W.

Now if a shielded fighter can only direct 10 percent of its total power output to its shields. (1E15)/(10)= 1E14W or 23 kilotons per second. If it can direct 25 percent thats 2.5E14W (59.5 kilotons)!

Which brings up another point why should galactic civil war era fighters be limited to the SW2ICS figures. Sure we can use them as a lower limit; but if we assume that capital ship weapons advanced over the 20 year period after ATOC. Then why not fighters?

Look at this quote fromIsard's Revenge:

Quote:
pg. 7 "Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan."
pg. 111 "Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."

These capitalship laser cannons are stated to be in the terajoule range 1E12 to 1E15 joules. That between 0.2 to 238 kilotons, so may be they're point defense lasers. The point is looking at the power avalible to a starfighter, they could easily mount heavier weapons (say 10-5kt), if there is no other technical or physical limitation. Bottom line we only know the energy weapon yeild of what would be considered obsolete 20 year old fighters. We never see a starfighter shoot anything in the OT, that can be used to accuratly determine there weapons yeild.


So here are the ranges:

Millennium Falcon: Reactor output 4.5E16W to 7.0E18W
Peak Shielding 1.5E16W to 6.0E18W

Slave1: Reactor output 4.5E16W to 7.0E18W
Peak Shielding 1.5E16W to 6.0E18W

Tie Interceptor: Reactor output 5.0E13w to 1.0E14W

Tie Advanced: Reactor output 7.5E14 to 1.0E15W
Peak Shielding 1.9E14W to 3.75E14w

The TIE Defander really should not require much more power than the TIE Advanced.

[Kuja]

GCS wastes time trying to find a diplomatic solution while the Defender loops around to the back and pumps its torps into the warp core.

[Ender]

The GT level torps come from my work based on the bit in Isard's revenge based on the quote as to 80 capital grade Concussion Missiles taking down the section of shields on a Mon Cal. Since a squadron of X-wings is able to do something similar to an ISD, it appears that type of warhead was miniturized to fit a fighter later in the war. This is supported by references to "high yield" torpedos. However, Tie's were never said to carry these weapons, though one could simply decide to arm them with them.

[seanrobertson]

The GT level torps come from my work based on the bit in Isard's revenge based on the quote as to 80 capital grade Concussion Missiles taking down the section of shields on a Mon Cal. Since a squadron of X-wings is able to do something similar to an ISD, it appears that type of warhead was miniturized to fit a fighter later in the war. This is supported by references to "high yield" torpedos. However, Tie's were never said to carry these weapons, though one could simply decide to arm them with them.

Oh, okay.

I tend to look at X-Wings as something altogether different than
any of the Imperial fighters, save perhaps a model I only know
as the "TIE Gunship," perhaps a purely conjectural version built
by Mr. Alfred Wong. (It had the size to carry truly huge weapons,
like gigaton-ranged mines and perhaps even gigaton-ranged
missiles.)

[seanrobertson]

This was my analysis on starfighter weapons and shields:

The Millennium Falcon firepower thread got me to thinking about. What kind of power outputs and shielding can realistically be attributed to SW light craft (ships under 100 meters).

Excellent

Here is my analysis:

Quote:

form SW2ICS:

Manufacturer: Theed Palace Space Vessel Engineering Corps
Make: J-type custom-built diplomatic barge
Dimensions: Length 39m;width 91m; depth 6.8m
Max. speed (in standard atmosphere): 2,000 kHz
Max. acceleration (in space): 2,500G
Power: main reactor peak 3e12 MW; peak shielding 6e12 MW
Hyperdrive: Nubian 288 cores; S-6 generators (class 0.7; range 80,000 light
years fully fueled)

Now the Naboo Diplomatic Courier has a power output of 3.0E18W, and peak shielding rated at 6.0E18W (that’s 1,428 megaton per second).

Looks good so far. Of course, this is actually quite a large ship;
the MF is saucer-shaped, so her smaller dimensions are somewhat
misleading in a direct comparison of nos. (since the courier is,
after all, SR-71 shaped). This ship will take a lot of hits from
any competent fighter squadron, or even capships (like the Trade
Federation battleships).

The Naboo Royal Yacht that Anakin takes to Tatooine has a reactor output of 7.0E18W and a peak shield rating of 2.0E18W (ie. 476 megaton per second)

I wonder if the shield rating and power output were switched for the Diplomatic Courier. First off its the only vessel in the book with a peak shielding greater than its reactor output. Secondly, if its not a typo then why does the royal yacht have shielding that's so much weaker?

I'm a little confused...I thought the two ships were one in the same?

In any event, we're looking at the same order of magnitude figures
for both ships--roughly half a gigaton to 1.5 gigatons. Both ships
dwarf TIE Fighters of all known designs.

Neither of these vessels are so much larger than the MF that they should have reactor outputs or peak shielding orders of magnitude greater. And once we take into account that the Falcon, has been modified to have a more powerful power plant, and shields. All three vessels should be in the same ballpark.

Probably. I might peg the MF an order of magnitude lower than the
Queen's ship. The former could take damage from TIEs (ANH),
and apparently could only take a handful of small turbolaser battery
hits before the deflectors were failing.

We also know from Darth Wong’s Calcs. from TESB, that the Avenger was hitting the Falcon with at minimum 3.5 megaton turbolaser shots. The imps wanted them alive so they, had to know the Falcon could survive those shots. The implication being that even a stock YT-1300 Transport has megaton range shielding, and by definition power output of 1.5E16W.

Hmm...I know what you're saying, but I can't fully agree here. From
Michael's nos. I don't see that a "light" turbolaser need necessarily
be some 12,000 plus terajoules. To vaporize the 40m asteroids,
4,000 terajoules, or just under one megaton/shot, would suffice.
That IS, of course, a lower-limit, but IMO it's doubtful the light
guns are going to be a lot more powerful than this; e.g., the Acclamator's similarly-sized armament had a maximum output/shot of 6 megatons.
Moreover, as you said, the ISD was simply trying to disable the Falcon,
not destroy her. If the MF had anywhere near 500 megaton shields
or the like, repeated high-kiloton ranged hits from the ISD would be stupid,
however.

Even if the Falcon's reactor output is only 1 percent of the Diplomatic courier, say 3.0E16W that's 30,000 TW.

Very conservative (nodding approvingly)...I'd say probably more like
25-40%, just off the cuff.

Seeing as Slave1 and the Falcon mix it up regularly, without either side having a clear advantage. Slave1' shielding and reactor output must be comparable.

On to Starfighters:

A light fighter such as a TIE interceptor has (4) 1kt laser cannons. If each can fire 20 shot per second the total power output is 3.4E14W solely to power its weapons.

Whoa, hang on...4 cannons firing 20 times PER second apiece?
That'd be 80 shots a second, or 80 kilotons!

Forgive me, Spartan, as you're obviously a really sharp, well-informed
fellow (and I'm pleased to make your acquaintance), but I definitely
don't see that sort of firing rate. Maybe--and I think this is pushing
it--I could see a quarter of that. Maybe.

Assuming a TIE interceptor masses 6 metric tons it requires at least 1.35E14J to accelerate to one half light speed. If a TIE can reach that velocity in one minute then, the power output would be 3.75E10W.

Looks good.

And finally Darth Wong has a calc which scales the energy required for an ISD to make a hyperjump down to the size of a fighter.

Quote:
Starfighter propulsion systems also produce a prodigious amount of power: TIE fighters easily overcome the 6E7 J/kg minimum energy requirement for escaping the gravity of a planet, and by comparing the size of a TIE fighter with the size of a Star Destroyer we can compute that hyperdrive-equipped TIE fighters most likely consume at least 1E15 J every time they jump into hyperspace, assuming that hyperjump energy requirements are proportional to volume.

Since the hyperdrive is the most energy intensive system on any SW vessel. The upper limit for the power output of any fighter should be around 1E15W. Since hyperdrive equiped fighters are not 10-100 time more powerful than straight TIES. Their power output should be at least 1E14W.

Now if a shielded fighter can only direct 10 percent of its total power output to its shields. (1E15)/(10)= 1E14W or 23 kilotons per second. If it can direct 25 percent thats 2.5E14W (59.5 kilotons)!

Hmmm...yeah, *if* it can. I don't think it's necessarily reasonable
to conclude that, because a large capship can route 25% of its total
power output to shields, a fighter must be able to do the same.
Indeed, the fact that TIE/In Fighters have *no* shields is strongly
indicative of this not being the case...even minimal shielding
for fighter-sized craft seems to be quite difficult to pull off, regardless
of power output. This probably has something to do with the size
of the shield generators themselves.

It's smart speculation, to be sure, but I simply don't think it wholly
matches with what we see onscreen. We've seen a lot of supposedly
well-shielded fighters die from less than a full barrage of their
opponent's weapons; e.g., all of the Ys destroyed by Vader's wing
in ANH, the almost immediate casualties taken at Endor.

Which brings up another point why should galactic civil war era fighters be limited to the SW2ICS figures. Sure we can use them as a lower limit; but if we assume that capital ship weapons advanced over the 20 year period after ATOC. Then why not fighters?

I'm sure they did advance somewhat, but a large part of advancement
deals with simply scaling up exisiting designs to the point that they're
effective; e.g., Acclamators and Victories were largely
eschewed in favor of the much larger Imperator.

Fighters are a different story because if anything, they've remained
roughly the same size. Some of them mount more weapons emplacements, but there's really no indication that a ship like
the TIE Defender has enough room for super-miniaturized shield
generators, a super-dense hypermatter power plant for juicing
all the systems beyond the rim in combat, etc. Fighters seem
to be essentially "in the same boat" during ANH, TESB, and ROTJ
as they were in TPM. You take more than a couple of direct hits,
and your ship blows up.

Look at this quote fromIsard's Revenge:

Quote:
pg. 7 "Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan."
pg. 111 "Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."

These capitalship laser cannons are stated to be in the terajoule range 1E12 to 1E15 joules. That between 0.2 to 238 kilotons, so may be they're point defense lasers. The point is looking at the power avalible to a starfighter, they could easily mount heavier weapons (say 10-5kt), if there is no other technical or physical limitation. Bottom line we only know the energy weapon yeild of what would be considered obsolete 20 year old fighters. We never see a starfighter shoot anything in the OT, that can be used to accuratly determine there weapons yeild.

Perhaps the lower end would favor starfighters. Of course, they're
not large enough to carry capship lasers.

So here are the ranges:

Millennium Falcon: Reactor output 4.5E16W to 7.0E18W
Peak Shielding 1.5E16W to 6.0E18W

Slave1: Reactor output 4.5E16W to 7.0E18W
Peak Shielding 1.5E16W to 6.0E18W

Tie Interceptor: Reactor output 5.0E13w to 1.0E14W

Tie Advanced: Reactor output 7.5E14 to 1.0E15W
Peak Shielding 1.9E14W to 3.75E14w

The TIE Defander really should not require much more power than the TIE Advanced.

Since the TIE Advanced wasn't produced in the nos. the Defender
supposedly was, it's probably a more advanced model overall.

I also think that reactor output-shield output decreases dramatically
as we deal with progressively smaller craft. Otherwise, the TIE/In
should have *some* kind of shields instead of...well, none.

I'd also put Slave One and Millenium Falcon's stats somewhat
lower than what you're suggesting. While it's true that they benefit
from a good 20 years of technological progression, they're both markedly smaller than the ship referenced in the _SW 2 ICS_; and, without
direct proof that miniaturization has taken a large step forward, these
ships--and therefore, the base from which fighter-level technology
is measured--should be a hair lower than the 6E18W peak shielding
range.

More on this later, hopefully. In any event, where this threat is concerned,
I think a Galaxy-class starship could destroy any TIE model with
a single hit. I also have a reason for thinking so (not to imply you
don't, Spartan...I *know* you'd back up such with nos.!):

In "Relics," I estimate that the E-D could withstand approx. 122,000 TJ
prior to shield failure, running on auxiliary power. At this point (season
six?), the Galaxies COULD use warp power (terawatt range "normally"
according to "The Masterpiece Society") to feed their shield generators
(ref: "The Nth Degree," all of the references from VGR and DS9),
potentially raising the shield's total power feeds to several terawatts
(vs. the < 1 TW circa "The Dauphin," fed purely by the fusion reactors).

It's impossible to tell how powerful a GCS's shields--and therefore,
its weapons--might be if fed by their dedicated power sources. I'd
contend the difference would be appreciable, perhaps as much as
200-300%, but I know of no proof to substantiate that guess.

Therefore, half-second phaser blasts--approximately a half-dozen
of which should be able to blow through GCS-lv. shielding--should
be the equivalent of ~15-20,000 TW (1.5E16W-2E16W). The GCS
*can* target something the size of a Defender, though to my
knowledge, they've never successfully targetted something of
that size that MOVES like the Defender probably can.

Still, I stand by the one-hit, insta-kill hypothesis. But one Defender
missile could, IMO, kill a Galaxy. If not one, then two; and
given the standard ranges at which a GCS engages very small targets
(ref: "Conundrum"), I think the Defenders would win by virtue of their
huge warheads.

That sounds perverted, for some reason. (shrugs) LOL.

[Connor MacLeod]

Oh for crying out..

[Connor MacLeod]

Can carry GT level Torps

However normaly they carry focues Anti-Fighter/small capship torps which can do high fraqitions of C and are roughly equivlant to Quantum Torps

So 6 Torps=Dead Galaxy class

I'm assuming you're inferring "they can do high fractions of c" from Star by Star? What about the fact the X-wings in question were ALSO moving at near-c? We don't exactly know the relative difference in speed between the two (except that it must be less than c)

And furthermore, even if we ASSUME they reach such high speeds, this effectively nullifies their manuverability. But since they seem to have around 72,000 gee accel (low end admittedly, but the higher estimates possible aren't significantly greater), I'd like to know how they jump up to Near-C in any appreciable timeframe. ESPECIALLY since most fighter-scale torps have about 30-60 seconds of active flight time.

At best, we get speeds around 10%-20% of c, MAYBE 30% or so if we stretch the accel figure some.

(I might also point out taht given the observed/estimated accel rates on SW fighters, even a TIE Defender would take some time to get to high relatavistic speeds, and doing so would probably require a trade-off in either propellant, energy reserve, or possibly both that would cut down on its active flight time.)

And beyond THAT, we also have to consider just how great a distance said ship (and missiles) would have to cross to reach said speeds (If we use the 60 second/72,000 gee example) the missile would cross around 1.3 million km in the time it took to accelerate up to around 40,000 km/s! By that time it would be out of propellant and have built up too much velocity to turn very sharply.

We can possibly extrapolate the POTENTIAL for near-c movement of said torpedoes, and we can determine from several examples ranges of several hundreds of thousands of km for torpedoes, but I'm at an utter loss to understand how this translated to "proton torpedoes moving at near-c" in your mind.

[Connor MacLeod]

T/D's have strong shields and they are much faster than a GC class ship

You know, its customary to provide proof to back this stuff up.

[Connor MacLeod]

Lag, The TIE/Defender is supposed to be able to take two of those Anti-Fighter/Capship Torps and survive

Source?

They have roughly have the shielding of a Galaxy class in other words(100-120 MTX2=200-240 MT of shielding, Galaxys have 450 -600 Tops)

Where are you deriving these protorp figures from, pray tell?

[Connor MacLeod]

The GT level torps come from my work based on the bit in Isard's revenge based on the quote as to 80 capital grade Concussion Missiles taking down the section of shields on a Mon Cal. Since a squadron of X-wings is able to do something similar to an ISD, it appears that type of warhead was miniturized to fit a fighter later in the war. This is supported by references to "high yield" torpedos. However, Tie's were never said to carry these weapons, though one could simply decide to arm them with them.

1.) where is a squadron of X-wings able to do something similar? I've never run across a source (except maybe "Mandatory retirement" and that wasa RS comic book) - but it wasn't just X-wings, and I don't recall the exact numbers (the torps were quite large, though.)

2.) SOTE explicitly stated that 13 X-wings would not be able to do much damage to an ISD with lasers OR proton torpedoes. Again, I would question the assumption that a single squadron could do it. Besides that, X-wings carry 72 proton torpedoes, but can only launch 24 at a time. The Victory-1 volleyd 80 at once. A bit of a difference, I'd say.

[Connor MacLeod]

Now the Naboo Diplomatic Courier has a power output of 3.0E18W, and peak shielding rated at 6.0E18W (that’s 1,428 megaton per second).

The Naboo Royal Yacht that Anakin takes to Tatooine has a reactor output of 7.0E18W and a peak shield rating of 2.0E18W (ie. 476 megaton per second)

To add to Sean's contention about size: ITs also noted that the Naboo vessels are somewhat specialized by definition, especially with their distinct lack of weaponry (and probably whatever smuggling apparatus and storage capacity the FAlcon holds) - it would not only have more room for dedicated defense systems, it would REQUIRE it. The larger powerplant would also support stronger engines and faster hyperdrive (again lacking weapons, quick escapes would be one's only defense.) and possibly better EW.

One cannot neglect the fact that the Naboo starships were designed for important personages (Queen/Senator.. well Former queen, but the Queen's starship would be under similar constraints) - this would mean they would go for the best capabilities they could find (and could afford it more) - the same does not neccesarily apply to a smuggler (though the Falcon has rather good defenses and systems, nevertheless.)

I wonder if the shield rating and power output were switched for the Diplomatic Courier. First off its the only vessel in the book with a peak shielding greater than its reactor output. Secondly, if its not a typo then why does the royal yacht have shielding that's so much weaker?

Shield ratings in the ICS were not meant to be read as power output - it represents the instantaneous dissipation capacity of said shields against attack. (IE they can get rid of x amount of energy per second, hence the reason its rated in watts)

Neither of these vessels are so much larger than the MF that they should have reactor outputs or peak shielding orders of magnitude greater. And once we take into account that the Falcon, has been modified to have a more powerful power plant, and shields. All three vessels should be in the same ballpark.

This assumes that Han had a similar budget and resources available, and that the space the Naboo equipment takes up would not be significantly greater on the Falcon.

We also know from Darth Wong’s Calcs. from TESB, that the Avenger was hitting the Falcon with at minimum 3.5 megaton turbolaser shots. The imps wanted them alive so they, had to know the Falcon could survive those shots. The implication being that even a stock YT-1300 Transport has megaton range shielding, and by definition power output of 1.5E16W. Even if the Falcon's reactor output is only 1 percent of the Diplomatic courier, say 3.0E16W that's 30,000 TW.

Fine, but this has little to do with TIE defenders.

Seeing as Slave1 and the Falcon mix it up regularly, without either side having a clear advantage. Slave1' shielding and reactor output must be comparable.

Possibly. Again, this is largely irrelevant ot the TIE defender vs GCS issue.

A light fighter such as a TIE interceptor has (4) 1kt laser cannons. If each can fire 20 shot per second the total power output is 3.4E14W solely to power its weapons.

How do we know they fire 20 shots per second each? In ANH TIE fighters fired maybe 4-6 shots per second. If we assume similar ROF for two of the TIE/I guns, thats around 8-12 shots per second (not impossible, given what Slave-1 demonstrated). But by that same token, X-wings only fired about 4-6 shots per second as well (although TIEs are supposed to have better guns.) The total output is likely an order of magnitude or so less if we go with 1 kt lasers.)

Assuming a TIE interceptor masses 6 metric tons it requires at least 1.35E14J to accelerate to one half light speed. If a TIE can reach that velocity in one minute then, the power output would be 3.75E10W.

The energy to accelerat 6 ton fighter to .5c would be 8.4e19 joules. If it took one minute the sustained out put would be 1.4e18 watts, and even if we assume it was a mistake and an hour we're still talking 2.33e16 watts.

Besides which, you're seriously assuming a TIE accelerates at over 250,000 gees (if one minute?). An Hour wouldn't be problematic though, but you'd still have to justify moving at .5c

Since the hyperdrive is the most energy intensive system on any SW vessel. The upper limit for the power output of any fighter should be around 1E15W. Since hyperdrive equiped fighters are not 10-100 time more powerful than straight TIES. Their power output should be at least 1E14W.

Actually, IIRC Rogue Squadron (the novel) correctly, sublight engines suck up more power than a hyperdrive

Now if a shielded fighter can only direct 10 percent of its total power output to its shields. (1E15)/(10)= 1E14W or 23 kilotons per second. If it can direct 25 percent thats 2.5E14W (59.5 kilotons)!

The problem is - is the amount of power a starship diverts to power shields analogous in any way to their dissipation/absorption rates?

Which brings up another point why should galactic civil war era fighters be limited to the SW2ICS figures. Sure we can use them as a lower limit; but if we assume that capital ship weapons advanced over the 20 year period after ATOC. Then why not fighters?

That depends on how significant a change you're talkinga bout. Small incrementes perhaps, but not significantly huge (IE orders of magnitude) ones. Mike's dealt with this on his site before, IIRC.

These capitalship laser cannons are stated to be in the terajoule range 1E12 to 1E15 joules. That between 0.2 to 238 kilotons, so may be they're point defense lasers. The point is looking at the power avalible to a starfighter, they could easily mount heavier weapons (say 10-5kt), if there is no other technical or physical limitation. Bottom line we only know the energy weapon yeild of what would be considered obsolete 20 year old fighters. We never see a starfighter shoot anything in the OT, that can be used to accuratly determine there weapons yeild.

1.) are the guns on the Assault frigates capital scale, or starfighter scale. THere's more than just power output to a weapon (you have to consider the icnreased heat dissipation associated with output, increased focusing mechanisms, etc.) Why not apply the 8 kt lasers on the TRadefed core ships, or 6 MT lasers on the Acclamator?

2.) the Isard's Revenge quote does not specify whether this is per gun, per broadside or even rate of fire.

The TIE Defander really should not require much more power than the TIE Advanced.

Possibly not.

The only relevant thing I can think of in favor of high-energy fighter yields is the fact that the Missile boat, mounting a single laser cannon, can also double its acceleration/speed by shifting energy from its laser cannons (and this boost does not drain the ship immediately.. it takes at least several seconds.)

[Connor MacLeod]

By the way, the best direct evidence in favor of multimegaton shielding on the FAlcon comes from Destiny's Way. Coralskippers flashing by at near-light velocity fire at least two multi-kg shots t the ship (we learn in the Rebel Stand/Rebel Dream duology that plasma bolts mass several kg). Since the plasma bolts would have to be traveling at least as fast as the coralskippers, it allows us to derive a KE yield for said projectiles.