Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

[Mr Bean]

Just to Clarify things

Jamming - well the thing is the empire wouldnt know what it was jamming and that arent that bright assuming they could jam transporters (of which Im not sure), subtrans cant be blocked by the usual jammers.

Jammers, Jam, EVERYTHING
With Jammer Technology it based on the idea of putting out random crap to screw with communcations and targeting sensors, Your Electic Toothbursh, EVERYTHING
Second SW Jammers are at the point they are so powerful they acutal effect space/time(Ref Novelisation ANH) Jammers in SW put out everything from old fanshion WWII style White Noise Jamming, to EMP counter plulses to remote Activation codes like those used in bombs in remote detitnation
We can accept Subspace Transports can be jammed because they have been jammed and the stated goal of Jamming...
More IS Better
If a Modern Aegis class Destroyer lit off its jammers within half a mile from shore, Everything from your clock radio to your computer would go absoutly nuts from the random conflicting singals they recive


Next up

By co-ords I meant relative to the ship ie a crude layout - the hangar can be seen so that wouldnt be too differcult - as for bomb size, taking torp yield as 64 MT - that would ruin the hangar and could do nasty stuff indeed, you then simply beam another torp into the same area but at the edge of the blast radius - bomb again.

The Hanger is acutal a Bad place as I just found out reading up on the ships Because that place on ISDs containts double Shielding..
What do I mean?
The Shielding Covering the opening is not the only shielding in that region theres also shielding behind that around the Airlocks and Doors, Around Muntions areas, In fact a blast in the hanger would be about as effect as detonating it inbetween the overhangs of the tower and the sufface of the ship
Shock Damage is a big unknow but Gas and Fire could simply be vented so while the Hanger IS a vunrable spot,its not the sweet One Torp Kablooie place some thing(Not everythings the Death-Star Fokes)

I have been told that an attack on a ISD's hangar destroyed the ship because a power conduit runs near by - I believe this was mentioned in the original subtrans thread

This acutal comes from The X-Wing Series Wraith Squadren but its not quite like that, The acutal Case was an ISD hiding in the mass-Shadow of a Moon, A sneak attack was launched and two Ties Blew up the Bridge and main Shield Towers before anything could be done. Over the course of the battle a hole was wrenched into the side of the ship near the hanger(Look from the front end of the ISD for perspetive, look 50 memeteres beyond the hanger to the dome covery thing right beyond that is where through a few decks of armor are the Power Cells, Anyway a X-wing and Tie managed to get in there and start blowing them up from the inside out(Bascily shooting all the Batterys) this made the ship run out of power and start to fall towards the moon in Captian instead orderd it to self-Desctruct the end

And two final notes

you then simply beam another torp into the same area but at the edge of the blast radius - bomb again.

The Ships Transported has been noted to be at the speedy pace of one *Thingy per mintue
(Ref Lord Wong, three epsodes where they had to transports people, One Person/Group/Thing every mintue)

So while they might get ONE in, They will never get a second shot and along the way I'll answear about Warp Strifing(Resumes Napaming)

Whats wrong with warp strafing anyway?

The Idea of Warp Strifing is warping in, REALY close hitting them with everything you, then turning warping away and repeating till you got a dead oponet

The Problem Arise in the fact that no Federation Ship Can hit them with everything they got and not get the Officer to Smugly Remark,
Sir They've hit us with six phaser blasts and twenty Quantum Torpedoes!
Shield Strength?
Holding at 99,999 Precent Sir
Let em do it to more time THEN blow them up

The problem in flying in reaaaaaaly close and shooting everything is as I said two fold, 1. Everything you got anin't enough 2. Your coming in realy close to an enemy that far-outguns you

To take down the E-D Shields you need roughly 400 Megatons of Energy
One Heavy TurboLaser Shoots at 200- GIGIATONS of Energy

Warp striving is nothing ore than a fancy Alpha Strike, VS anything with Heavy Turbo-Lasers or Even enough Medium Lasers, Thats Certain Death.

(Release the flaming mockeys carrying Napalm on the warp strifer!)

[TheDarkling]

Arg I have already been through the jamming discussion on the subtrans thread - subspace is a big place (it takes 3 hours for a SW ship to scan the entire subspace comms band) thus it would take alot of jamming and thats if subspace jamming goes and even then that doesnt work as show by the episode when Geordi couldnt come up with a way to block it.

The double shielding which you refer to - I knew about (evidenced whenever shuttles dock) but shielding is ineffective - if anytihng a bomb in the hangar would destrou the Ties in there and make reloading ties for hyperspace very differcult, if at all possible.

I didnt think it would be a one shot kill, the torps are only the size of a person so 6 could be released in ago putting a bit more power in the area and increasing the chance of an intact transport.

Im not sure about this one transporter at a time - why else have so many transporters? and I can remember a person beaming on at the same time as their cargo - this may have been Voy or DS9 though.
The TM backs this position but that isnt evidence so I cant use it .

However it isnt necessary to simply beam a torp - the jem hadar white containers arent that big (smaller that torps) and one was rigged with enough exlposive to destroy everything in 800km - so using one of those explosives could cripple a ship.

[Master of Ossus]

I like the part when Darkling defends ST shields by saying that they may be in the gigaton range, which (even if true) would make them utterly incapable of standing up to weapons that Imperator class Star Destroyers carry. Heck, a ship with a five gigaton shield range would not stand a chance against a mere TRANSPORT from the SW universe.

As to the UFP's chances of "adapting" to SW weapons, assuming that they had time, I still cannot imagine that they would be able to do it. ST "heroes" are extremely resourceful with their technology (through a combination of technobable and incomprehensible tactics), but there are always limits to the adaptability of any technology. A longbow is a weapon designed for hunting, but to penetrate heavy armor the basic concept was modified and the crossbow was created, but even the simplest firearms use a COMPLETELY different mechanism for propelling a projectile. The bow was an extremely effective concept, but eventually new technologies must be created in order to improve upon the performance of other, less effective concepts.

SW sensors DO use multiple methods of scanning. In Heir to the Empire it is stated that even long range sensors use a number of factors to detect people and ships, including heat, sound, and energy signatures. While a heavily modified, underpopulated light freighter might escape their sensors IF it is in the right area relative to a SD, a larger ship like the Enterprise would not be able to escape detection.

The Federation was obviously in jeopardy during the Dominion war. Think about how panicky everyone in the UFP was! SIX changelings nearly shut down all of Earth. Bajor WAS temporarily controlled by Dominion forces, and they did not resist significantly. No one who looked at the disastrous predictions of SF intelligence could believe that the UFP and its allies were the favorites to win, they just used a combination of blind luck, good overall strategy, and several resourceful innovations to turn the tide. The battle does not always go to the strong, nor the debate to the smart, but that's the way to bet.

The Sun Crusher was not used while the Emperor was alive because no one in the Empire, aside from Tarkin, knew exactly what was being worked on and where. Perhaps the Sun Crusher was not even developed until AFTER the Emperor died. Following the Battle of Yavin, the way to visit the interior of the Maw and the R&D site there was lost. In the case of a war with the UFP, though, the Empire would NEVER allow the Sun Crusher to be used because to do so would be to demonstrate the continued existence of a MAJOR strategic weapon. To do this when a conventional, relatively inexpensive response would prove more than adequate would represent a serious blunder for Imperial planners. I'm not saying the the Sun Crusher is risky, in fact, it seemed completely safe. What I am saying is that to utilize such a powerful weapon against an insignificant foe would be folly.

[Master of Ossus]

Doesn't it bother anyone that the ability to perform "warp strafing" has never been demonstrated in Trek, even when it clearly WOULD grant significant advantages during a number of battles? Examples of situations in which warp strafing would have been effective include the Klingon and Cardassian/Dominion assaults on DS9, as well as the attacks on a number of Cardassian planets and installations by Klingon and Federation forces. In a sense, such a tactic would totally negate the benefits of static defenses like the defense stations seen around Cardassia. BUT WE HAVE NEVER SEEN IT HAPPEN, OR HEARD ABOUT IT HAPPENING. Such defenses still exist, which would only be practical if ST ships WERE incapable of such a maneuver.

Although the limiting factor in such attacks is not known, it is probably a limitation involving either the targeting computers of Federation vessels or their computers. This hypothesis is proposed in large part by the necessity of "stop and go downwarping" maneuvers.

[Mr Bean]

Well said an nearly elimites me from having to reply but two things

One he never claimed Giga-ton Shields, I did, I'm rounding and factoring in any tecno-bable triple increase of shield strength would still not bring it up to 1 GT, I'm saying they are 2 GT

A few quote notes

it takes 3 hours for a SW ship to scan the entire subspace comms band

Evidance of this? First time if head that said before

Im not sure about this one transporter at a time - why else have so many transporters? and I can remember a person beaming on at the same time as their cargo - this may have been Voy or DS9 though.

One TRANSPORT not one THING Transported sorry should have cleared that up, Its just like it looks, Eight people or somthing massing about as much as eight(Prehaps they could do more use more power but there IS a Definite *Cool-Down time after Transporting anything)

one was rigged with enough exlposive to destroy everything in 800km - so using one of those explosives could cripple a ship.

800KM?
You know thats nearly 300 miles, Rounded roughly your talking 250miles of Descruction?
I'd reaaaly like to see evidance and some figures backing this up

[TheDarkling]

I dont put fed shields anyway since I havent done any calcs (The fact that Trek has no regard for consistency means they could be Gigaton one week and Kiloton the next).

I didnt believe that adapting to Sw weapons would be that affective but it may be possible and would be in character for star fleet as evidenced.

The detection doesnt matter much anyway since the feds could simply run away at almost c and still use the subtrans however Im still less than convinced about the empires sensors.

That was prewar and that power shut down wasnt caused by the dominion but by rebels star fleet officiers.

Bajor was ordered by Sisko not to resist and thus they didnt until it became necessary at which point they were very useful.

Weyoun himself admitted that without reinforcements they wouldnt win and once the Godlings sorted them out the dominion turned tail and ran back into Cardy space.

This is theory but I would guess that the Jem hadar were sacrifcing ships to take out fed ships at any cost since they thought additional forces would soon come to aid them and the dominion is know to use such tactics.

Well I agree that sun crusher wouldnt come into play (Mr Bean stated it was post ROTJ by about 3 years before work began on it) but not using super weapons depends upon wether the Imps want to destroy or take over.

[TheDarkling]

A time to Stand DS9 6.1

"90 isotons of enriched ultridium should take care of the entire storage facility and everything else in 800km"

It blew up a sizeable asteroid and pushed the remains to a high speed (the debris overtook a Jem hadar ships going at full impulse, however the ship may not have yet reached that target and may still have been accelerating.)

This is my point if the feds can make a weapon that powerful why would torps be so weak and if torps arent so weak and so on and so on.

Someone needs to figure out torp power but I cant imagine anyone sitting through a 100 hours of Voyager - it just aint worth it.

[Mr Bean]

Two quick things

Run away at almost c

TIME DILATION BHWHAHAH! I think not

And Two

Well I agree that sun crusher wouldnt come into play (Mr Bean stated it was post ROTJ by about 3 years before work began on it

FINSIHED not started, At Least the Armor/Ship Was, The Nova Torpedoes where done at an unknow date(Ref Han's Question of Qui at the Maw instlation) and both where inculded in the same ship

Heres how it worked out
Idea Make Invicible Armor
Idea Blow up Star Systems
Idea Increase Steath Tech, Three seperate Ideas that got incorrprated into the same ship

The Entire thing played out simliar to this, The Armor people finsihed first, They built a Pro-totype tested it, Dissablmed it incorated all the Steath Techs the other team was working on then Qui Finsihed and they built a seperate pro-type acutal a finsihed product with all three ideas combined

[TheDarkling]

Yes I realise time dilation would occur by almost c I meant 0.75 c (I believe this is top rated ability of impulse engines).

[User099]

Whats the point of having a stealth sun crusher if SW sensers are so good? I keep hearing everyone say ST cloaking is completely ineffective with SW sensors.. why? In ESB that ISD gave up searching for the Falcon because they thought it was cloaked - they didn't say anything like "It might be cloaked but our sensers usually pick up cloaking devices so that can't be it." or anything.
Also there are other SW ships with cloaking devices, but if they're so useless what's the point?
Anyway, slightly diff. topic from that, in a Voyager episode (I think it was the one about Omega. Sorry, I have a bad memory when it comes to naming episodes) Janeway got some sort of "superbomb" that she said all Fed ships have that are only for use in THE most extreme circumstances, that was mentioned as being able to destroy a planet (or close a rift between normal space and fluidic space). Anyway, I actually think that Starfleet is quite capable of inflicting massive damage, such as blowing up planets. It's just WAY too unethical for a peace-loving organization to run around destroying planets all over the place. Of course there are questions like "Well why didn't they use it against the Borg or why didn't they use it on Cardassia or some other big evil guys." Well I honestly don't know, it might be because that sort of weapon can damage subspace or something (but that's just an idea) but the point is they do have the ability to blow up planets and do other monumentally damaging things , its just not in their ethics to do such a horrible things, even against enemies that are trying to eradicate them. Just like how they refused to give the Borg that insane virus, or saved the founders, or constantly help their enemies, and all that other goodie-two-shoe crap. They're not just going to walk over to some planet they don't like and blow it up for the hell of it, like the Empire. However I doubt they'd care about using it against thousands of gigantic ISDs and whatnot.

[TheDarkling]

The quote was Harry saying something like "whats she want to do blow up a small moon?" however I dont think it would actually destroy a small moon it was just hyperbole, destroying everything in 800km isnt bad especially for explosives that can fit in a small container about 2m tall.

That being said an episode of DS9 proved that it would take 30 starships an hour to level a planet - so the feds do have some ok ish weapons.

One thing does anyone know what the magnitude of an explosion has to be so that it can be seen from space? - I have heard 100's of MT is that accurate?

[Howedar]

If you converted a piece of degenerate matter that size entirely into energy and then multiplied the yield by a hundred you wouldn't destroy stuff 800km away.

[Howedar]

In other words, its either
A. Bullshit
or
B. Proof of fantastically weak Trek construction and shielding (as if we needed more)

[Master of Ossus]

I am disgusted with User099 for his inability to understand the obvious. The Sun Crusher's advantage was that it could even beat many SW scanners (although it has never been clear to me why it would need to, as it IS invincible to conventional weapons). The history of warfare may be summarized as a series of advances in defensive technology followed by advances in offensive technology that are geared towards defeating the former. When people built castles, other people created siege weapons. When people made suits of armor, other people created weapons like warhammers and daggers, that were designed to defeat them. When the Romans developed legions, the Carthaginians used war elephants to destroy them. In the SW universe, the Sun Crusher is designed to defeat many very good sensor packages. It may not beat them all, and it may be possible to design new conventional scanners that are designed to beat the Sun Crusher's stealth technology.

In regards to his idiocy regarding cloaked ships, SOME SW sensors CAN detect the presence and location of cloaked ships. the technology that allows them to do this is called a Crystal Grav Trap, and is prohibitively expensive. Only ships and installations that are likely to engage cloaked ships are equipped with such technology. I really can't understand why this is confusing. It is like User099 is trying to say that if any SW scanner can defeat a cloaking device, ALL of them must be able to. Well, the F22 Raptor is a stealth fighter that flies faster than the speed of sound, is extremely maneuverable, and carries enough ordanance to engage groups of less capable fighters. Just because it is possible to build such an aircraft does not mean that ALL aircraft have such abilities. A 767 is considered a top-of-the-line aircraft, but it can do none of these things. Just because it is possible to create a piece of technology does not mean that all older pieces of technology instantly become obsolete.

[Master of Ossus]

"...I actually think that Starfleet is quite capable of inflicting massive damage, such as blowing up planets. It's just WAY too unethical for a peace-loving organization to run around destroying planets all over the place. Of course there are questions like "Well why didn't they use it against the Borg or why didn't they use it on Cardassia or some other big evil guys." Well I honestly don't know, it might be because that sort of weapon can damage subspace or something (but that's just an idea) but the point is they do have the ability to blow up planets and do other monumentally damaging things...." User099

One acronym. WTF. Okay, first this guy says that SF can blow up planets and provides essentially zero evidence to support this. He then admits that he does not know why they have never used this ability in the past, and THEN he comes back by saying that "the point is they do have the ability to blow up planets...." I have absolutely no idea how this person manages to make a living! If he cannot understand how BLATANTLY circular his logic is, how can he have a job that makes money? If he is still a student, how is he passing his classes (actually, I don't know that he is )? This simply has to be written up as idiocy on an ASTRONOMICAL scale.

[TheDarkling]

Howedar: It happened, what more can I say?
It rends a sizable asteroid well so it couldnt have been a small explosion and was thus powerful.

I cant really say any more than that, you should know by now that trek doesnt conform to A) science or B) internal consistency.


Master of Ossus: Interesting.. so you are saying all Imp ships dont carry these sensors - I never knew this, I was always lead to believe that any ship could detect cloaked vessels - so the cloak isnt completely useless after all.

[Anarchist Bunny]

so the cloak isnt completely useless after all.

Really it is. It'll give the SD's a nuicience but not a problem. In the new star trek movie (I'll try not to give anything away) the E-E has to fight a cloaked ship, that is able to fight through cloak and is a so called perfect cloak that they can't detect. Still the E-E is able to fire around stratigically and hit it with phasers several times. Seeing how SDs have a much higher rate of fire and much higher weapons strength it wouldn't be long until they make the neccessary 1 or 2 shots to destroy the cloaked ship.

[TheDarkling]

anarchistbunny: not before the cloaked ship drops of one of those bombs I mentioned -they should at least injure the shields.

The fact is that a cloaked ship doesnt have to open fire straight off - a sneak attack could cause heavy damage - destroy bridge and use confussion to contiue attack etc.

Cloaks may be less useful but they cant be discounted completeley.

[Cpt_Frank]

They won't injure the shields, if you look at how much an ISD's shields can take.

[TheDarkling]

A bomb that can destrou anything in a sphere of radius 800km isnt to be sniffed at - however it way take more than one, sure would be good for nailing 1000's of Ties at once.

[Cpt_Frank]

Btw, what makes you think one can 'adapt' to SW weapons?
You can only adapt to a weapon if it uses a special characteristic to inflict damage. SW weapons use raw power. You can'T adapt to raw power.
All of SW's technology is designed the way that nothing else will decide the effectiveness of a weapon but raw power.

[TheDarkling]

Care not to coment on the bombs yield?

I simply said that sort of thing is what trek does even wong says so on his site - Im not saying they could stop wars weapons but they could be made to handle them better - however that may be of little consequence against TL.

[VF5SS]

Yah, that bomb can kill TIEs. Don't you feel proud? So what's the yield of this big bomb anyway?

[Mr Bean]

Lemme make some Corrections about SW Sensors and Cloaking

SW Sensors are able to decect any Cloacked ship as Long as its MOVING
Crystal Grav Trap sensors are desgined to dectect Cloacked ships that are either Sitting Still ore Coasting(Though Coasting is 50/50 as I'll explain)

SW Ship Dectect Cloacked ships the same way one decects an Ohio Class Subermare which is acutal quieter than the surronding enivorment its in compined with a few other ways
Bear with me now this might get complicated

When a Cloaked Ship is under power, While it maybe be invisible to normal Sensors(They are absorbed by the cloack and don't generate a *Return)
It Does however generate a return based on the fact its A, Heating up the surronding enviroment thus you can see just like the wake on a ship a part of Space thats Temporarly *Hot compared with everything else around it. Second is exuast from the Engines which normaly passes throgh most cloacks and can be dected

Coasting ships(Those NOT outputing anything to be deceted) Can only be by the above Heat Trail method, Of course you have to be rather close for the Heat method to work by all accounts I'm just guessing 6KM Or less
I'm realy not sure on the range of SW Heat Sensors, While there mentioned in the EU all the time as being one of the many sensors aboard the avarage ship no mention of range and effectivness is given at any point in the 40+ Books of the EU and The movies, So they are realy up in the air, anybodys guess

But a ship under power even under cloack will quickly be deceted by SW Sensors

Now then Crystal Gravaity Field Traps, are an extremely compicated and powerful bit of tecnology which by a varity of methods(Most of which sound like pure Tecnobable but arn't, just not somthing the avarage person runs accross unless he happs to have an Doctrite in Astryomeny and or Physicis)
that to sum it up, Decects the relationships that gravity has with everything is a rather large system and looks for anaomlys
For example we do the same things with black holes Except thats a realy big Gravity source and about its near the limit of what we can do(Moons is the smallest we can do ATM anything smaller and we are sunk)(Gotta be a big moon to)

Every thing excerts a gravitational force on everything else and if you have a big enough computer and sensative enough instments you can detect these interactions and figure out where things are by them

This is what a Crystal Gravity Trap does and its a sure-fire way of Deceting Cloacked ships, The Problem lies in close to planets the order of things to be deceted and infulance by it jumps by a few magintues and it can't give as exact cordinats as it could say in open space
It will let you know somthings there but only within a few Kilometers rather than a few centameters as it normal can

That clear things up for people?

[Howedar]

A bomb that can destrou anything in a sphere of radius 800km isnt to be sniffed at - however it way take more than one, sure would be good for nailing 1000's of Ties at once.

Its bullshit! You're inflating a hyperbole into actual firepower.