31st Century UFP vs. Galactic Empire (A New Hope Era)

[Darth Tedious]

Ah, thanks.

Was there anything there that gives us any idea of capabilities for the 26th century? Could be handy for extrapolating...

[avatarxprime]

Oh, and something I just remembered was the development of improved armor and weapons brought about by the Voyager crew in Endgame. In just a few decades they had developed ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes. Now the torpedoes could very well function by technobabble to only be effective against Borg, but we know the armor worked against Klingon and Borg weapons (by extension weaponry in general) so that again figures into the development of the Federation over time. Now before you say "alternate timeline," that is true, but the people behind the technology's development still exist in the regular timeline and could likely develop it again. This would mean late 23rd, early 24th Century Fed tech can produce vastly more effective defensive (and possibly offensive) technology than anything we've seen the major AQ powers use before.

Not to quibble, but that should be 24th-25th on the underlined part. 23rd century was Kirk's era.

You're right, when I was typing it up I messed up with having late 23xx to early 24xx on the brain.

I would argue that the ablative armor and transphasic torpedoes don't even need to be redeveloped. Even if it's not the same ablative armor that is already present on the Prometheus-class (VOY: "Message in a Bottle"), the Feds could fairly easily reverse-engineer it from Voyager (unless the Temporal Prime Directive forbids this). Same with the torps, though as you said, whether they're of any use against anything except Borg is debatable.

The Temporal Prime Directive does in fact prohibit the use of technology from the future, that's one of the reasons that Captain Janeway said no to Admiral Janeway at first. That's why I said the same people who developed the technology (the Voyager crew) are still around to do so again, and can be expected to re-develop the technology within a few decades. Also, the ablative armor on the Prometheus is the same kind that's on the Defiant and other anti-Borg ships developed by Starfleet. The Batmobile armor is different, although likely a more advanced version.

As an aside, I just looked up transphasic torpedoes on Memory Alpha. According to one of the novels (I know, non-canon), they are technobabble incarnate, operating by subspace compression apparently.

Yeah I know, I checked Memory-Alpha to see if I missed anything and saw that too. I purposefully didn't bother saying anything since it's non-canon.

Ah, thanks.

Was there anything there that gives us any idea of capabilities for the 26th century? Could be handy for extrapolating...

Only in the bare minimalist sense. We know the Ent-J was in a battle with the sphere builders and this was the battle where the Federation finally defeats them. Since we know the Sphere Builders can build weapons capable of destroying planets and are perfectly capable of time travel that does give some indication as to their general power level.

In case you never saw said planet destroying weapon, here:

[Danny]

LOL i forgot all about the Xindi Superweapon, which is stupid because i saw the episode again 5 days ago. I suppose its possible ST could build a type of superweapon to obliterate a planet or a SW ship, but the federation isnt too keen on building dreadnought superweapons of mass destruction. Maybe the cardassians, romulans and klingons would...
Then again according to Daniels, klingons will eventually join the UFP. As far as the romulans, well, they lost their homeworld and most of their fleet. I wonder if they just commit suicide out of shame

I suppose it would be fun to examine a 31st UFP against the empire, as some1 pointed out the 24th century thing has been beaten to death already. Then again, we are still in the dark. Guestimation kinda sucks when you dont have alot of info.

[Darth Tedious]

I suppose its possible ST could build a type of superweapon to obliterate a planet or a SW ship, but the federation isnt too keen on building dreadnought superweapons of mass destruction. Maybe the cardassians, romulans and klingons would...

At least for the 23rd century, there's good reason to believe that it's beyond the ability of the Klingons to build a planet-destroying weapon. If they could, they probably would not have been so keenly interested in the Genesis device (which is only a BDZ level of destruction).

A similar line of thought applies to the 24th century Klingons, WRT trilithium torpedoes.

[Azron_Stoma]

The Genesis device could potentially be used to restore planets that have been BDZed, but yeah the Xindi superweapon. It sure isn't the Death Star, but it does look quite powerful nonetheless. Have we ever seen it capable of firing on ships? It seemed to have to position itself, stop moving (and stop that clockwork thing it was doing) and charge up so I'm guessing it's only useful against static targets. Also given Alderaan's shields holding back the DS1 for more than a 10th of a second, they should be able to withstand said superweapon. A space station however would not be so lucky (unless it was a fully completed DS2)

[Danny]

Doomsday machine. It is logical starfleet would possess tech to destroy a world in the 31st century, however i doubt they would use it on coruscant since that galaxy is very far away, and they dont know where it is. This war would primarily be a defensive battle, but since the UFP would have most species encompassed in its organization, they ***MIGHT*** have a fighting chance.

[Eternal_Freedom]

If we really want to look at the kind of weaponry they possess, we know that as of the late 2380's the Vulcan's have developed that Red Matter stuff that ratther nicely squashes Vulcan. Yes, I know it's from the new film but Red Matter and the Nerada came from the original timeline.

Now I find it highly unlikely the Vulcans of the late 24th century would allow such a technology to be weaponised by the Federation, but with 700 years, I think it quite reasonable that the 31st century Federation has weaponised red-matter.

Of course, given the extent of their observed time travel abilities, destroying a planet seems rather wasteful. Why wreck a perfectly good planet when you can go back and erase the species that's bothering you? Much more efecient.

[Danny]

or better yet- a Cardassian metagenic weapon that kills all DNA on the planet, thereby making conquest of the planet easier. Why waste resources on time travel and accidently destroy more than that species your trying to kill by making a small mistake [VOY: Year of Hell] if you could just launch a little missile in the atmosphere, kill every1, then take over.

[Metahive]

They'd have to sterilize quite a lot of planets of which the most important are heavily defended to boot. Too much effort and possibly beyond their capabilities.

This is not comparable to Year of Hell. Annorax erased an entire species from history, the 31sters need to abort only one baby/shove one guy into a black hole to win.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Also, I thought the Cardassian metagenic weaponry thing was a ruse to capture Picard. Did any other episode show them possessing such weapons?

[Batman]

They'd have to sterilize quite a lot of planets of which the most important are heavily defended to boot. Too much effort and possibly beyond their capabilities.
This is not comparable to Year of Hell. Annorax erased an entire species from history, the 31sters need to abort only one baby/shove one guy into a black hole to win.

Why does no Palpy mean instawin? For all you know it might make things worse. All the technology is still there and for all you know you just gave the Empire a leader that's actually competent. Removing Palpy from the equation doesn't automatically mean the Empire won't happen, it just won't be the one we're all familiar with if it does.
Killing Palpy in the crib doesn't remove Grievous, or Dooku, or anybody else with similar ambitions.

Actually, looking at the thread title, using time travel to solve this is futile-since this is about the 31st century UFP vs The ANH era GE, any attempts to change the history of the GE have obviously failed

[Danny]

Also, I thought the Cardassian metagenic weaponry thing was a ruse to capture Picard. Did any other episode show them possessing such weapons?

It was a ruse, however the weapon itself was created in the past, but was outlawed by most species, including surprisingly the romulans. Since it was outlawed, it is safe to assume at one time it was used into a planet. Like genesis, it wasnt used apparently after its initial use.

You can watch the episode here on:

http://www.allstepisodes.com [Chain of command]

[Metahive]

Why does no Palpy mean instawin? For all you know it might make things worse. All the technology is still there and for all you know you just gave the Empire a leader that's actually competent. Removing Palpy from the equation doesn't automatically mean the Empire won't happen, it just won't be the one we're all familiar with if it does.
Killing Palpy in the crib doesn't remove Grievous, or Dooku, or anybody else with similar ambitions.

Irrelevant as it is not the Galactic Empire of ANH anymore in any case and given that Palps was the main instigator behind the Empire's creation as well as the architect behind the events leading to it, his absence will at the very least delay the slide of the Republic into authoritarianism considerably. Also, once again you ignore the proposal to put Palpatine in a black hole without fiddling with the timeline at all.

Actually, looking at the thread title, using time travel to solve this is futile-since this is about the 31st century UFP vs The ANH era GE, any attempts to change the history of the GE have obviously failed

As was already demonstrated, NOT TRUE! The 31sters do react towards unfavorable timelines and take measures to correct them in ST canon without losing their memory of it. Stop ignoring the evidence.

[StarSword]

Actually, looking at the thread title, using time travel to solve this is futile-since this is about the 31st century UFP vs The ANH era GE, any attempts to change the history of the GE have obviously failed

As was already demonstrated, NOT TRUE! The 31sters do react towards unfavorable timelines and take measures to correct them in ST canon without losing their memory of it. Stop ignoring the evidence.

I was actually under the impression from Memory Alpha's articles on the Temporal Cold War and related subjects that it was the other participants who were fucking with the timeline, and the UFP was trying to put things back the way they were originally. So I'd actually call it "reacting towards altered timelines."

[Metahive]

I was actually under the impression from Memory Alpha's articles on the Temporal Cold War and related subjects that it was the other participants who were fucking with the timeline, and the UFP was trying to put things back the way they were originally. So I'd actually call it "reacting towards altered timelines."

Who cares? Point is that they can liberally alter timelines if it pleases them and are immune to the grandfather paradox , i.e. they can reap the fruits of their incursions. If push comes to shove and the Empire threatens them with a toaly military takeover it would be foolish for them to neglect the one weapon against which the Empire is completely defenseless.

Also, isn't it convenient that the so-called "original" timeline is the one that coincidentally favors their faction massively? Think about it, they're not necesseraily as innocuous or honorable as they pretend to be.

[JasonB]

31st UFP would crush the Star War Empire unwanted bug. One tactic that already been talk about is the 31st century UFP could is just beam Emperor and Vader into nearest Black-hole with a time portal .Across if 31st century UFP wanted to crippled Star War Empire all they would have to do is send bombs though their time portals to all of the Star war Empire military base, starships, outposts, military factories and even the Death star it self. Leaving Emperor with no choice but to surrender to 31st century UFP fleet with fact the Star war Empire would not have single starship left in fleet.

Assuming you said what I think you said, doesn't time travel fuckery generally require at least a little understanding of the other side's history? Plus, considering all the trouble Daniels and others went to in order to preserve the flow of history, even cheerfully dying for the cause, why would they simply set aside their principles to utterly anihilate their enemy from the word go?

How I understood it the way the time portals work in Star Terk is they can be used for time travel or for simple transportation like a transporter would be used for.

[Darth Tedious]

I was actually under the impression from Memory Alpha's articles on the Temporal Cold War and related subjects that it was the other participants who were fucking with the timeline, and the UFP was trying to put things back the way they were originally. So I'd actually call it "reacting towards altered timelines."

Who cares? Point is that they can liberally alter timelines if it pleases them and are immune to the grandfather paradox , i.e. they can reap the fruits of their incursions. If push comes to shove and the Empire threatens them with a toaly military takeover it would be foolish for them to neglect the one weapon against which the Empire is completely defenseless.

Also, isn't it convenient that the so-called "original" timeline is the one that coincidentally favors their faction massively? Think about it, they're not necesseraily as innocuous or honorable as they pretend to be.

Hehe, but they act so innocent!

But wait just a minute...

If they're immune to Grandfather Paradox, their timeline must be more or less immutable. How was a temporal war ever supposed to work? I realise this is more of an out-of-universe question...


I just noticed, it was never stated how the war takes place (i.e. the usual wormhole between galaxies thing). Could the 31sters be on the offensive, attacking the GE using time travel?
Also, upon re-reading the thread, I noticed that the a rule of "no erasing the Empire from history" was stated", so all the suggestions of killing Palpy as a baby are a little pointless.

[StarSword]

I don't think it's a given that the grandfather paradox even exists at all.

Why should a change in the alleged future affect you in the present?

Um, that's not the grandfather paradox. The grandfather paradox is that a change in the past results in a change in the present.

The way it's usually explained is, you go back in time and kill your grandpa. Since you killed your grandpa, your father is never born, hence, you are never born. But if you were never born, you couldn't go back in time and kill your grandfather, therefore your grandfather wasn't killed, and therefore you were born. But if you were born, you could go back in time, and so on ad nauseam.

Put more simply, preventing A prevents B, but if B is prevented, A is not prevented, etc.

Stuff like that is why I have made a blanket rule in my own sci-fi that time travel is not possible. Trying to work out the results rationally just gives me a headache.

[Metahive]

Hehe, but they act so innocent!

But wait just a minute...

If they're immune to Grandfather Paradox, their timeline must be more or less immutable. How was a temporal war ever supposed to work? I realise this is more of an out-of-universe question...

Only the temporal agents themselves and parts of their technology are immune to it, their civilization as a whole is not as can be seen in Shockwave. So if they erase the Empire from time, the agents will be the only people to have ever known it.

If you think about it, that makes those agents an analogue to the strangers in Dark City who also were able to manipulate their "ward's" perception this way. Kinda disturbing, really.

I just noticed, it was never stated how the war takes place (i.e. the usual wormhole between galaxies thing). Could the 31sters be on the offensive, attacking the GE using time travel?

The OP wasn't all too kind in fleshing out this scenario, so this is more a discussion of what assets are theoretically available to the 31sters.

Also, upon re-reading the thread, I noticed that the a rule of "no erasing the Empire from history" was stated", so all the suggestions of killing Palpy as a baby are a little pointless.

I say screw it, that's like saying Empire vs UFP with the Empire not being allowed to use hyperdrives and turbolasers. The 31sters best known capability is timeline manipulation so there's no point in depriving them of that, although as already stated it doesn't mean they're completely helpless without it.

[Darth Tedious]

I say screw it, that's like saying Empire vs UFP with the Empire not being allowed to use hyperdrives and turbolasers.

I agree with your sentiment- any faction which uses time travel as a regular MO should be allowed to do so in versus scenarios.

That said, even within the given constraints, they really only have to kill Palpatine in 0ABY and the Empire falls anyway. They can totally win this.

The thing that bothers me about time travel is conservation of energy. The paradoxes just seem like someone is just overthinking it.

I can't for the life of me remember where, but I've seen a very weird and zany theory that time is interchangeable with matter or energy.

It was E = ΔTc2
T was time, I don't even remember what Δ was for. The whole theory sounded like a heap of whacky bullshit, but the equation stuck in my head.

[JasonB]

For fuck's sake Jason, this is ridiculous even by your standards...

As for just throwing The Emperor and Death Vader into the nearest Black hole that would not be a very effective way of destroying the Empire, because the next highest ranking officer would just take over.

Dipshit, killing Palpatine will effectively defeat the Empire, because there is no next highest ranking officer. With the Emperor gone, the whole Empire fragments and enters a civil war. This is what actually happened in Star Wars.

So what the 31st century UFP would have to do is us those time portal to beam bombs over to every starship, military base and docking port that the Empire might use against UFP.

Really? It would be easier to plant what would be anywhere up to hundreds of thousands of bombs than to just kill Palpatine?

Please explain why killing Palpatine would not work, as it did canonically. I could use a good laugh.

You still need to kill Dark Vader as will in order for that to work. He basic second in command Empire and would likely be one take place of Palpatine.

[StarSword]

^Wow. That one was actually legible. I think JasonB is improving.

The trouble with Vader as Emperor is that Vader, while greatly feared for his little habit of Force-choking people who displease him, is not respected as Palpatine is. The Moffs and whatnot owe a great deal to Palpatine, but they don't owe Vader a damn thing. A fairly recent thread in the Pure Star Wars forum went into this in greater detail.

While it's true that Darth Bane's "Rule of Two" is the modus operandi of the Sith (apprentice usurps master), it's not the modus operandi for galactic government.

[Metahive]

You still need to kill Dark Vader as will in order for that to work. He basic second in command Empire and would likely be one take place of Palpatine.

"Dark" Vader's skill at politics boils down to "Do what I say or I'll crush your windpipe". While that kinda' sorta' works when bossing around military goons, trying this on scheming politicians out for his post will only result in Vader's shuttle having an unfortunate accident while landing, leaving no survivors.

I mean you have seen TESB where "Dark" Vader demonstrates his lack of shewdness by unnecessarily bullying Calrissian, which leads to Vader coming out of it all with empty hands, right?

[StarSword]

You still need to kill Dark Vader as will in order for that to work. He basic second in command Empire and would likely be one take place of Palpatine.

"Dark" Vader's skill at politics boils down to "Do what I say or I'll crush your windpipe". While that kinda' sorta' works when bossing around military goons, trying this on scheming politicians out for his post will only result in Vader's shuttle having an unfortunate accident while landing, leaving no survivors.

Not to mention the fact that Anakin, who became Vader, was known to have a distaste for politics. He said as much in AotC:

PADMÉ: I went into public service. [The guy I had a crush on] went on to become an artist.

ANAKIN: Maybe he was the smart one.

PADMÉ: You really don't like politicians, do you?

ANAKIN: I like two or three, but I'm not really sure about one of them.

End result of this and other incidents is that we have strong evidence that Anakin/Vader was a passionate man with no talent for subtlety. Subtlety is kind of a requirement for politics, however, and something Palpatine was a master of. According to the Dark Empire comics, he specifically engineered the Empire to collapse without him.

P.S. Damn, "Dark" Vader? I completely missed that one, Metahive.

[Connor MacLeod]

The biggest problem with "time travel" tactics in vs debating is that it's all horribly vague. There is no well defined model or mechanism for explaining it, no well defined limits, nothing. It's far to easy to jump overboard into "no limits" fallacies that way. It might make an interesting discussion in and of itself trying to come up with a model and explaining it, but as far as vs debates go its too big and complex an issue to really resolve in a simple manner.

The other concern I have iwth time travel is that its unpredictable. The more you start invoking time travel, the more one can start to question existing evidence. I mean we could explain inconsistencies by changes to the timeline (EG Quark's beliefs on gold changing form one episode to the next, the Borg, etc.) but that cuts into consistency to do so - again as far as thematic elements go it works, but it only makes the vs debate harder to pull off when capabilities may change from series to series or episode to episode.

Actually this is probably true of alot of comic book tactics (like in stargate and other sci fi as well) - it treats technology as if they were magic ingredients or legos - you juts add in the right upgrades or tech bits and then you can build yourself an unbeatable, game-winning superweapon - and who the fuck cares about trivialities like logistics, engineering, resource allocation, cost or the like?