Star Destroyers -v- Soverign Class Ships

[Gunstar]

I have a couple of questions.

Since SW and ST are based on different technology, does anyone really know if:

1) One side or the other's shields are actually effective against the other sides weapons? I know from the ST universe, there have been some races that their weapons are capable of easily penetrating SF shields, while others are not. But, at least from what I've seen, pretty much everybody in the SW universe (at least as far as energy weapons are concerned), everybody uses TL weapons. Their shields would automatically be able to repel TL firepower, but what about phasers which are based upon different tech? Not to mention that phaser frequency can be modulated. Same thing with PT.

2) Can SW ships detect cloaked ships? Again, the different technology question arises.

3) Since it has been shown that sometimes the ST transporters can penetrate the shields of other ships in the ST universe, what is there to say they couldn't penetrate SW shields?

Personally, I think that these are valid questions and would like to hear what everyone else thinks of it.

[Master of Ossus]

1. We assume, due to reasons of parity, that the shields on both ships can stop weapons from the other side. We have repeatedly seen overlap in the types of weapons that can be stopped by the shields of either side, and we haven't really seen any weapons that can consistently ignore either group's defenses.

2. We don't know if SW can detect ST cloaked ships. I think that they can, but I am willing to assume that the cannot because I cannot prove that they can. I would, however, be surprised if they actually could not, given how easily ST ships can detect their own cloaked ships.

3. ST and SW shields operate on different principles, as demonstrated by the frequencies of ST shields and the lack of similar features on Imperial ships. It is also evidenced by the single shields protecting ST ships, whereas Imperial ships must have both ray shields (for energy) and particle shields (for KE weapons and the like). Also, since ST transporters are interfered with by such a wide array of things, and since dense materials are known to interfere with their ships, it is generally understood that SW hulls would be virtually impregnable to ST transporters. Occasionally, someone will challenge this assumption, but generally it is thought that transporters would only come into play if the shields of an Imperial ship were first disabled.

Also, when has a ST transporter ignored a ST shield? Every time it has happened it was under unusual circumstances (ie. When a ship was able to "match" EM frequencies with their target's shield, thus being able to ignore them either with weapons or transporters).

These are valid questions, and they do occasionally come up, but for the most part they have been covered.

[FettKyle]

By the way CGT (crystal gravity trap) work by detecting the small Gravity waves each ship creates in real space next to a large Gravity well like earth would be like puting a blanket over a marble your not sure if its a natural bump or some thing else but out side of a Gravity well, SW can find ST ships. Source the last command.

[Gunstar]

In the ST universe, when they first encounterd the Dominion, their shields were ineffective against the Dominion. But later in the DS9 series, they found ways to reduce the effectiveness of the weapons fired from the Dominion ships, eventually being able to take multiple hits before receiving physical damage.

There were also cases where, knowing the frequency that shields operate at, weapons have been able to penetrate opposing forces shields. Example, ST Gen (VII). Do SW shields operate at a specific frequency and can they be modulated? If they can't be modulated, and someone figured out the frequency they operate at, couldn't they be penetrated?

As far as detecting cloaked ships in ST, I credit that to the fact that they are familiar with the technology (due to multiple contacts with it over many years time, also having at least 1 known SF ship equipped with it). But since something like that would be new to the SW universe, how long would it take them to figure it out? Although having someone on board the SW ship with the power of the force would most likely "feel" their presence and know that someone was nearby.

Does anyone in the SW universe use energy weapons other than TL style weapons?

There were some cases in either DS9 or Voy where they penetrated opposing (non SF) ships shields. I'd have to dig through all of the episodes to try to find it, but if I remember correctly, it did happen. But like I say, it was against non SF ships. In the cases of doing it with SF ships, it was in rare occasions and under unusual circumstances.

Some ST ships have a newer style of multi-layered regenerative shielding. One was the ship (I forget the name of the ship) in Voy that the EMH was transmitted to in the AQ. The one that the Romulans stole, and was capable of splitting into three seperate ships for combat. And I think (but I'm not sure) the Ent-E is also equipped with.

Unfortunately, it's late and I have to get some ZZZ's. I'll check back tomorrow to see your answers.

Thanks and "may the force be with you", "live long and prosper"!

Every day I'm thankful that we have both SW and ST for entertainment. (with a touch of Anime on the side)

[Spanky The Dolphin]

By the way CGT (crystal gravity trap) work by detecting the small Gravity waves each ship creates in real space next to a large Gravity well like earth would be like puting a blanket over a marble your not sure if its a natural bump or some thing else but out side of a Gravity well, SW can find ST ships. Source the last command.

CGTs detect the cloaked ship's mass, not "gravity waves".

I don't think there even are such a thing as a gravity wave.

[FettKyle]

Thanks for the correction. Any way I heard some thing about the Ssi-Ruuk using something the equivelent of turbolasers. Other then that you got me.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

What the fuck do Ssi-ruuk weapons have to do with cloaking or CGTs?

[FettKyle]

I was replying to the other Newbie's last question. I'm sorry.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

Try quoting people using the "Quote" button.

[FettKyle]

Okay

[FettKyle]

Now how do you use it?
I'm terrible with computers

[Isolder74]

Now how do you use it?
I'm terrible with computers

you place the mouse pointer over the button marked quote on the post you wish to quote and them type your reply after the other persons remarks and click submit

[FettKyle]

Okay now did it work.

[FettKyle]

[quote]you place the mouse pointer over the button marked quote on the post you wish to quote and them type your reply after the other persons remarks and click submit .
Okay is that better.

[Isolder74]

Okay now did it work.

almost click on the quote button below the avitar

[FettKyle]

you place the mouse pointer over the button marked quote on the post you wish to quote and them type your reply after the other persons remarks and click submit

This better work or I will damn this computer to hell

[Isolder74]

you place the mouse pointer over the button marked quote on the post you wish to quote and them type your reply after the other persons remarks and click submit

This better work or I will damn this computer to hell

you got it!

[FettKyle]

In the ST universe, when they first encounterd the Dominion, their shields were ineffective against the Dominion. But later in the DS9 series, they found ways to reduce the effectiveness of the weapons fired from the Dominion ships, eventually being able to take multiple hits before receiving physical damage.

There were also cases where, knowing the frequency that shields operate at, weapons have been able to penetrate opposing forces shields. Example, ST Gen (VII). Do SW shields operate at a specific frequency and can they be modulated? If they can't be modulated, and someone figured out the frequency they operate at, couldn't they be penetrated?

As far as detecting cloaked ships in ST, I credit that to the fact that they are familiar with the technology (due to multiple contacts with it over many years time, also having at least 1 known SF ship equipped with it). But since something like that would be new to the SW universe, how long would it take them to figure it out? Although having someone on board the SW ship with the power of the force would most likely "feel" their presence and know that someone was nearby.

Does anyone in the SW universe use energy weapons other than TL style weapons?

There were some cases in either DS9 or Voy where they penetrated opposing (non SF) ships shields. I'd have to dig through all of the episodes to try to find it, but if I remember correctly, it did happen. But like I say, it was against non SF ships. In the cases of doing it with SF ships, it was in rare occasions and under unusual circumstances.

Some ST ships have a newer style of multi-layered regenerative shielding. One was the ship (I forget the name of the ship) in Voy that the EMH was transmitted to in the AQ. The one that the Romulans stole, and was capable of splitting into three seperate ships for combat. And I think (but I'm not sure) the Ent-E is also equipped with.

Unfortunately, it's late and I have to get some ZZZ's. I'll check back tomorrow to see your answers.

Thanks and "may the force be with you", "live long and prosper"!

Every day I'm thankful that we have both SW and ST for entertainment. (with a touch of Anime on the side)

Can anybody answer this?

[Connor MacLeod]

I have a couple of questions.

Since SW and ST are based on different technology, does anyone really know if:

1) One side or the other's shields are actually effective against the other sides weapons? I know from the ST universe, there have been some races that their weapons are capable of easily penetrating SF shields, while others are not. But, at least from what I've seen, pretty much everybody in the SW universe (at least as far as energy weapons are concerned), everybody uses TL weapons. Their shields would automatically be able to repel TL firepower, but what about phasers which are based upon different tech? Not to mention that phaser frequency can be modulated. Same thing with PT.

Well, ask yourself this. Does either universe have examples where "common" phenomena - asteroids, "common" radiation, or non "special" phenomena (no unusal treknobabble particles or such) have threatened said ships? I mean asteroids, radiation, etc. If so, then yes, they can harm each other. (Think about it, if mundane phenomena interacts with the ship and its defenses, what is going to prevent them from fighting one another?)

As I recall, phasers are a kind of particle beam weapon. They interact with normal phenomena. Hence, they should interact with shields. Same with TLs vs ST shields.

2) Can SW ships detect cloaked ships? Again, the different technology question arises.

I'm not entirely sure to answer this. In Star Wars, cloaks appear to represent a variety of defenses (descriptions of effects and natures vary, really) But most seem to be "immune" to most every form of detection except one: crystal gravfield trap sensors, which detect objects by their "mass" - for the most part. Normally according to the SWSB, these sensors have a range in the hundreds of thousands of km.. but they can only detect cloaked ships at thousands of km. To my knowledge no other form of sensor can detect them.

3) Since it has been shown that sometimes the ST transporters can penetrate the shields of other ships in the ST universe, what is there to say they couldn't penetrate SW shields?

Someone else will have to handle this.

[Connor MacLeod]

In the ST universe, when they first encounterd the Dominion, their shields were ineffective against the Dominion. But later in the DS9 series, they found ways to reduce the effectiveness of the weapons fired from the Dominion ships, eventually being able to take multiple hits before receiving physical damage.

And why were they able to bypass shields? The WAY they do so would probably be the key factor in determining whether or not they could ignore SW shields. For that matter, it would also depend on if there is a comparison in the ST universe that matches SW shields, because you're operating on the premise that the two universe's technologies are different (which means what works against Fed shields owuld not work against SW shields)

There were also cases where, knowing the frequency that shields operate at, weapons have been able to penetrate opposing forces shields. Example, ST Gen (VII). Do SW shields operate at a specific frequency and can they be modulated? If they can't be modulated, and someone figured out the frequency they operate at, couldn't they be penetrated?

You're contradicting yourself. You yourself said that SW and ST tech is different, but here you assume that SW shields must be similar to Trek shields (IE they must have a frequency). We don't even KNOW if they have a frequency the way trek shields do (probably not) and even if we do, this may not be the same kind of frequency as fed shields use. So even IF the FEds knew what sort of "frequency" shields operated at, why would this neccesarily do them any good?

As far as detecting cloaked ships in ST, I credit that to the fact that they are familiar with the technology (due to multiple contacts with it over many years time, also having at least 1 known SF ship equipped with it). But since something like that would be new to the SW universe, how long would it take them to figure it out? Although having someone on board the SW ship with the power of the force would most likely "feel" their presence and know that someone was nearby.

You made the assumption originally that the technologies of SW and ST are different. How would ST have knowledge of SW technology or similarities if they're tech is different? And contact with other species does not guarantee the automatic "familiarization" with any new technology. Its just as conceivable taht any SW technology would be new and unusual as Federation technology is to the Empire.

Does anyone in the SW universe use energy weapons other than TL style weapons?

A variety of lasers, particle beams, plasma weapons, nuclear and antimatter weaponry, gravitational weapons (tractor pressor beams, based on repulsor/tractor beam technology), pulse-wave cannons (which use spatial distortions to inflict damage.), particle disintegrators, mass drivers/railguns, missiles, mines, bombs, EMP weapons, radiation weapons, etc. There are further varieties mentioned before, but we aren't sure what they are ("nova generators" are mentioned in the SWSB.

There were some cases in either DS9 or Voy where they penetrated opposing (non SF) ships shields. I'd have to dig through all of the episodes to try to find it, but if I remember correctly, it did happen. But like I say, it was against non SF ships. In the cases of doing it with SF ships, it was in rare occasions and under unusual circumstances.

How is this relevant against SW ships? You said the technology is diferent.

Some ST ships have a newer style of multi-layered regenerative shielding. One was the ship (I forget the name of the ship) in Voy that the EMH was transmitted to in the AQ. The one that the Romulans stole, and was capable of splitting into three seperate ships for combat. And I think (but I'm not sure) the Ent-E is also equipped with.

So? SW ships have shielding like that as well.

[Mr Bean]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless

One side or the other's shields are actually effective against the other sides weapons? I know from the ST universe, there have been some races that their weapons are capable of easily penetrating SF shields, while others are not. But, at least from what I've seen, pretty much everybody in the SW universe (at least as far as energy weapons are concerned), everybody uses TL weapons. Their shields would automatically be able to repel TL firepower, but what about phasers which are based upon different tech? Not to mention that phaser frequency can be modulated. Same thing with PT.

Changing frequency is not a big thing ok? The reason they even need to to begin with is the fact that to lower shields on a ST ship is to lower all shields and its not exactly fast. SW shields have consentantly demosrate the ability to block EVERYTHING, Unlike ST shields which *Have open frequencys(Most likley to fire thier weapons through or communcate through) SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through. The *Frequecny of ST shielding is the fact that ST shields flip on and off thousands of times per second(One of the reasons for Long time beam weapons is that every shot you get some leakage through)
Meanwhile SW shields agian and agian have demosrated they are on 100% of the time in 100% of the locations as they even extend into the Subspace and Hyperwave areas

Can SW ships detect cloaked ships? Again, the different technology question arises.

Yes and No, A NONMOVING Cloaked ship can only be dected by a CGT or if it has sat still long enough(Which the previous posters have gotten wrong, it acutal like Scientists looking for the *Wobble on stars to see if they have planets, looks for somthing similar, I'll get into that)
A moving cloaked ship however is easily dectable by a varity of means from Thermal Trail to Drive emissions, Drive emissions are a no duh sort of thing if a ship moves, they see the waste products of the drive, Termal Trails is a little ingenious but farily strait-forward


Anyway if a ship is in space it radiates heat energy, this TEMPROARLY heats up the surronding area even that a trail is easily visable in IR if one has delicate enough instruments. Follow the Trail find the ship. Also Thermail traisl can be used to deceted a ship sitting still though it has to be there long enough for space to have warmed up and extended outside the cloack, some cloaks can stop this, others don't

Now then CGT look for *relation-ships in gravity, Suppsodly it can with enough time detect somthing as small as a ten meter object within a light hour range however it takes much longer(Prehaps as long as ten minutes maybe more, bigger objects(100M+) are deceting in seconds)
Anyway the CGT analyis gravity relationships(Whats pulling and pushing on what) then starts hunting for anything that does not appear on sensors

IE if we are feeling a pull from Cords X11-2 and we look over there and see a Astroid ahh we keep looking, If we however look over and see nothing there then we know we have a cloaked ship

Since it has been shown that sometimes the ST transporters can penetrate the shields of other ships in the ST universe, what is there to say they couldn't penetrate SW shields?

Long know that shields stop transports, even Shields of people who have never met the Federation in the show Voyager are able to stop Transporting with 100% success, Getting beyond that the interfeance from the ships systems would likley be enough(Its been show Todays Ordinary Transformers are enough to stop transportation)
And beyond even that the Hull of the ISD is increably dense(Able to take MTL and HTL blasts? Thats over 200 gigatons when Feddy ships fold at under 100 megatons...)

Do SW shields operate at a specific frequency and can they be modulated? If they can't be modulated, and someone figured out the frequency they operate at, couldn't they be penetrated?

They have no Frequency because unlike Feddy ships they are on and stay on

Anything else?

[Ender]

RTFW

I have a couple of questions.

Since SW and ST are based on different technology, does anyone really know if:

1) One side or the other's shields are actually effective against the other sides weapons? I know from the ST universe, there have been some races that their weapons are capable of easily penetrating SF shields, while others are not. But, at least from what I've seen, pretty much everybody in the SW universe (at least as far as energy weapons are concerned), everybody uses TL weapons. Their shields would automatically be able to repel TL firepower, but what about phasers which are based upon different tech? Not to mention that phaser frequency can be modulated. Same thing with PT.

Frequency myths are dealt with on the website; but more to the point since Wars doesn't use shield "frequencies", they can't slip it by that way.

2) Can SW ships detect cloaked ships? Again, the different technology question arises.

Yes. Cloaked ships still have mass and thus it can be measured with a CGT. And since warbirds use QS generators, the should be detectable even with standard grav sensors

3) Since it has been shown that sometimes the ST transporters can penetrate the shields of other ships in the ST universe, what is there to say they couldn't penetrate SW shields?

Because every time they have done that with the sole exception of subspace trans, it has been due to knowing shield frequencies. In addition, dense material blocks transporters, and neutronium is pretty damn dense. I think darkling has some calcs about it.

[Ender]

In the ST universe, when they first encounterd the Dominion, their shields were ineffective against the Dominion. But later in the DS9 series, they found ways to reduce the effectiveness of the weapons fired from the Dominion ships, eventually being able to take multiple hits before receiving physical damage.

I believe the explanation is that the dominion penertated their shields because they used polaron based weapons instead of nadion based like everyone else. After finding a crashed bug, the AQ was able to modify their shields to be more like dominion shields and block polarons as well as nadions.

There were also cases where, knowing the frequency that shields operate at, weapons have been able to penetrate opposing forces shields. Example, ST Gen (VII). Do SW shields operate at a specific frequency and can they be modulated? If they can't be modulated, and someone figured out the frequency they operate at, couldn't they be penetrated?

No frequencies to find out.

As far as detecting cloaked ships in ST, I credit that to the fact that they are familiar with the technology (due to multiple contacts with it over many years time, also having at least 1 known SF ship equipped with it). But since something like that would be new to the SW universe

No, it wouldn't. They have had cloaking for a while, it is just that sensors keep catching up.

how long would it take them to figure it out?

Depends on the quality of the sensors, but probably not very long.

Although having someone on board the SW ship with the power of the force would most likely "feel" their presence and know that someone was nearby.

We tend to leave the force out of these debates because it is an unknown quantity.

Does anyone in the SW universe use energy weapons other than TL style weapons?

Chiss used to use mazer weaponry (and still do for hand held weapons), those Monks from the rift we saw in VotF seem to have used neutron cannons, the Vong use plasma (though since TLs are part plasma that is not that dissimilar), the quella ship used an unknown energy weapon.

All are blocked by shields.

There were some cases in either DS9 or Voy where they penetrated opposing (non SF) ships shields. I'd have to dig through all of the episodes to try to find it, but if I remember correctly, it did happen. But like I say, it was against non SF ships. In the cases of doing it with SF ships, it was in rare occasions and under unusual circumstances.

No frequencies, no holes to exploit.

Some ST ships have a newer style of multi-layered regenerative shielding. One was the ship (I forget the name of the ship) in Voy that the EMH was transmitted to in the AQ. The one that the Romulans stole, and was capable of splitting into three seperate ships for combat. And I think (but I'm not sure) the Ent-E is also equipped with.

Regenerative shielding simply means that you can recharge the shields without dropping them, like you had to do with older style ST shields.

And the ship was the Prometheus, and was only a testbed. There is no indication one way or the other as to if it went into production or not.

[Ender]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless
SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through.

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Long range is gone though.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

I am goin to Trek for a moment. I'm not sure if any of you heard this but if Qt or PHt could go .9 c it would break thru the shields with Gigaton kentic energy. anybody please disprove me.
-an eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.
-Gandhi

Bullshit. With that much energy, who needs a warhead?


That be TOWNMNBS who said that.