Is there anything in Star Trek that can threaten Star Wars?

[His Divine Shadow]

er... what?

How am I supposed to take that smiley? To me it essentially signifies a "fuck you, you dumb bastard *rolleyes*"

It might be different for you.

[NecronLord]

er... what?

How am I supposed to take that smiley? To me it essentially signifies a "fuck you, you dumb bastard *rolleyes*"

It might be different for you.

I was rolling at "The emperor can't multitask."

he doesn't need to, just go through each line.

[His Divine Shadow]

I was rolling at "The emperor can't multitask."

he doesn't need to, just go through each line.

Well it probably works a bit different, I think he can only like think of sending, or emanating(subconsciously most likely) to a certain type of people, like imperial soldiers.

[His Divine Shadow]

One last note, I am ejecting from this thread, if you seriously can contemplate to twist the quotes provided just to satisfy your personal preference of what the force should be like then it's just useless to even bother anymore, you've made up your mind and I'm in no mood for pursuing a useless cause that'll undoutebly be buried under a mountain of text.

You go ahead and think what you will, it's still not going to make it right.

[NecronLord]

One last note, I am ejecting from this thread, if you seriously can contemplate to twist the quotes provided just to satisfy your personal preference of what the force should be like then it's just useless to even bother anymore, you've made up your mind and I'm in no mood for pursuing a useless cause that'll undoutebly be buried under a mountain of text.

You go ahead and think what you will, it's still not going to make it right.

I hope he's not talking to me...

[Col. Crackpot]

like in generations. the trick would be getting close enough to a star to do it. that would wreak havoc if done to one of the core systems. i don't care how strong a planetary shield is, it would't protect against a supernova. i don't know if the feddies could pull it off though. they would have to have help. ie they would need a ship that wouldn't be detected . a stolen tramp freighter might do the trick. it would obviously be a suicide mission. T...hat could be a good fanfic event (hint hint stravo! lol) i'm suprised no one has thought of it yet

[Ender]

like in generations. the trick would be getting close enough to a star to do it. that would wreak havoc if done to one of the core systems. i don't care how strong a planetary shield is, it would't protect against a supernova. i don't know if the feddies could pull it off though. they would have to have help. ie they would need a ship that wouldn't be detected . a stolen tramp freighter might do the trick. it would obviously be a suicide mission. T...hat could be a good fanfic event (hint hint stravo! lol) i'm suprised no one has thought of it yet

Lost tech.

[Isolder74]

like in generations. the trick would be getting close enough to a star to do it. that would wreak havoc if done to one of the core systems. i don't care how strong a planetary shield is, it would't protect against a supernova. i don't know if the feddies could pull it off though. they would have to have help. ie they would need a ship that wouldn't be detected . a stolen tramp freighter might do the trick. it would obviously be a suicide mission. T...hat could be a good fanfic event (hint hint stravo! lol) i'm suprised no one has thought of it yet

Lost tech.

Yes only one person knew how it worked and he died.

[Col. Crackpot]

i think it would make for one hell of a kickass fanfic plot twist if the feddies somehow manage to sneak a spy past a wormhole blockade and blow up the whole damned corellian system.

who's to say that there weren't a few more. hell, maybe it could be reverse engineered.

[neoolong]

i think it would make for one hell of a kickass fanfic plot twist if the feddies somehow manage to sneak a spy past a wormhole blockade and blow up the whole damned corellian system.

who's to say that there weren't a few more. hell, maybe it could be reverse engineered.

Reverse engineered from what? Only one guy knew how it worked, and he only would need to build the one to get back in the Nexus.

[NecronLord]

i think it would make for one hell of a kickass fanfic plot twist if the feddies somehow manage to sneak a spy past a wormhole blockade and blow up the whole damned corellian system.

who's to say that there weren't a few more. hell, maybe it could be reverse engineered.

couldn't some inventive corrilian outrace section 31 and use centerpoint to dump the star into hyperspace/move the planets (or was centerpoint destroyed? I haven't read the centerpoint books)

[Illuminatus Primus]

I'm just arguing it isn't as if Palpatine can turn a whole planet into zombies controlled by him for months at a time. I'm thinking some people have taken a few quotes too far. My way would still require Palpy's light mental fudging over of the local populace to remain squeaky clean in the Imperial spit-shine fashion. Perfect ruse.

Blah blah blah, you should have thought of that before you fucking pissed me off with that godamn fucking concession accepted shit you arrogant sonofabitch.

Fact - He made them not notice
Fact - There are billions of people that should have seen it, if not trillions
There's nothing light whatsoever about it.

Thats all there is to, your semantics games just pisses me off more after your aggrevating display of assholeness.

As for affecting all those people, a fucking transmitter can reach untold recievers and it can be as simple as possible it doesn't fucking matter.

Touchy.

You haven't shown anything. Just whined and shreaked. Get off your fucking pedestal and stopping debating if your precious ego is going to be hurt. Quit fucking whining. I know that there's no way Palpatine can directly control people like that because it is inconsistent and doesn't make any sense. How uber you want Palpatine to be is irrelevent.

Like I said, concession accepted.

[Illuminatus Primus]

And we do know it takes more concentration then merely recieving: C'boath had to strain for every mind he tried to directly manipulate and it is fucking stated the only reason who could control so many was because the thousands of clones' still only had less then a dozen different minds due to the mass-memory reproduction of the flash memory thing on Tantiss.

It is stretching it to use an example like that, and speculation to say Palpatine can do x 1000 what C'boath did with 100% independent minds. That's bull.

[NecronLord]

And we do know it takes more concentration then merely recieving: C'boath had to strain for every mind he tried to directly manipulate and it is fucking stated the only reason who could control so many was because the thousands of clones' still only had less then a dozen different minds due to the mass-memory reproduction of the flash memory thing on Tantiss.

It is stretching it to use an example like that, and speculation to say Palpatine can do x 1000 what C'boath did with 100% independent minds. That's bull.

C'boath != Palpatine.

Also C'boath is not of sound mind, and therefore his comments are to be regarded with suspision.

[Illuminatus Primus]

NecronLord: The thought is not C'boath's dialogue. It's unspoken and actually no one's dialogue. So his insanity doesn't count.

I believe, Divine Shadow, that you're taking this way too seriously and personally.

Not to mention the clinging to one's perception of one quote out of context is a tactic DarkStar insisted on in his debate with Wong.

Do you want me to really spend pages posting all the quotes I have the invalidate that hyperbole by a non-Force User like Thrawn?

You're still taking Thrawn's speech which put Pelleaon in his place and manipulated C'boath as proof above anything despite the fact Thrawn wasn't even part of the Imperial Navy proper, Thrawn ran all sorts of activities that he wouldn't have gotten away with (Niruaan) if Palpatine was like a God. That's absurd. And Thrawn wasn't even a Force User. His opinion is increments above irrelevence and outright hyperbole, even without the fact that other sources make the whole concept impossible to begin with, and therefore Thrawn's opinion irrelevent. Essential Guide to Characters says Vader was as powerful as Palpatine by Endor, yet he couldn't brake Leia just a few years before if he had nearly Palpatine's power and Palpatine (in your perception) had the entire Starfleet directly manipulated through the Force? Where's the limit for Christ's sake?

[His Divine Shadow]

Ok, as usual I am backing on my promise, first off Iluminatus is incorrect in comparing the two incidents, this was not the same thing at all, it was a more refined and defnite form where C'baoth himself actually coordinated the two, Palpatine did no such thing, he just sent out a subconscious signal that touched imperial officers with feelings usefull for soldiers.

IOW, you are mixing two incompatible situations.

[NecronLord]

You're still taking Thrawn's speech which put Pelleaon in his place and manipulated C'boath as proof above anything despite the fact Thrawn wasn't even part of the Imperial Navy proper, Thrawn ran all sorts of activities that he wouldn't have gotten away with (Niruaan) if Palpatine was like a God. That's absurd.

The ability to transmit does not equal the ability to monitor everyones actions.

And Thrawn wasn't even a Force User. His opinion is increments above irrelevence and outright hyperbole, even without the fact that other sources make the whole concept impossible to begin with, and therefore Thrawn's opinion irrelevent. Essential Guide to Characters says Vader was as powerful as Palpatine by Endor, yet he couldn't brake Leia just a few years before if he had nearly Palpatine's power and Palpatine (in your perception) had the entire Starfleet directly manipulated through the Force? Where's the limit for Christ's sake?

Vader never used the force on leia, he was content to use ordinary meathods. Also she was (unconciously{I've always known}) a force user herself. and once again the ability to transmit != the ability to read minds.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Firstly, I agree with you completely about what Palpatine did, but Thrawn heavily exaggerated it. It DID NOT cause the fall of the Empire (which Thrawn was too busy using Imperial resources to ensure Chiss security to bother to help with anyway, and the Dark Empire Sourcebook said other things were responsible), it DID NOT extend over the entire Imperial fleet because it is just way too large in scope and leads to absurd questions like, "Why didn't he just mind control a Rebel cruiser at a time?"

However, I conceed that Palpatine indeed had a significant degree of mental domination, and combat spirit enhancement among the Imperial fleet at Endor, and the loss of this could've been so tramatic, combined with the loss of the Executor and the Death Star, to precipitate a total Imperial rout.

Second, my reference to C'boath was not the "coordinate the cloaked cruisers" thing, but when C'baoth personally siezed complete control of the Chimeara's entire crew all at once. His amazing strain suggests that even subtle influence on a galactic-wide scale was out of Sith Lord's abilities. Indeed; in the Sith Empire's hayday, many Dark Lords were deposed by lower Lord's armies sneaking up on them.

Third, Palpatine states in other sources his displeasure with incomplete control of the Fleet and Empire itself. He was to prepare his Dark Side Adepts on Byss to replace the Admirals and Moffs so his control would be complete (Dark Side Sourcebook).

[His Divine Shadow]

I believe, Divine Shadow, that you're taking this way too seriously and personally

I believe you insulted me, I believe I should take it personally, few things aggrevate me like a loooong reply ending with a concession accepted, you almost guarantee flaming and eternal hatred with such comments, unless I feel nicer later on.

Not to mention the clinging to one's perception of one quote out of context is a tactic DarkStar insisted on in his debate with Wong

Just like you cling to yours?
It's just not working, because it said the entire imperial fleet and over the long run, thats not a single battle, because thats what Thrawn was advocating with C'baoth.

Do you want me to really spend pages posting all the quotes I have the invalidate that hyperbole by a non-Force User like Thrawn?

There are no such quotes so it's rather moot, the ones you see with C'baoth in the books are simply not the same kind of useage of the force.

You're still taking Thrawn's speech which put Pelleaon in his place and manipulated C'boath as proof above anything despite the fact Thrawn wasn't even part of the Imperial Navy proper,

I'm not, Pellaon later on found Thrawn's comments to be eerily true later on.

And Thrawn wasn't even a Force User. His opinion is increments above irrelevence and outright hyperbole,

You haven't proven it was hyperbole, you haven't proven that it matters what Thrawn is, what matters is the book gave him right.

even without the fact that other sources make the whole concept impossible to begin with, and therefore Thrawn's opinion irrelevent

There are no other sources, it's just you mis-understanding what thrawn is talking about in reality and mixing it up with what C'baoth did, I don't see how you can because it's pretty hard to miss the difference...

And with all this mixing up quotes and intent, all that comes out of this is a big garbled mess that makes no sense.

Also power is not everything.

So far we have Palpatine doing that sending out something like a constant signal, and C'baoth doing actual communication and coordination and stuff, not something Palpy was doing with the whole imperial fleet.

Where's the limit for Christ's sake?

Thats your problem, you need, no want, a limit, for no reason except you not understanding whats going on.

[His Divine Shadow]

Firstly, I agree with you completely about what Palpatine did, but Thrawn heavily exaggerated it. It DID NOT cause the fall of the Empire (which Thrawn was too busy using Imperial resources to ensure Chiss security to bother to help with anyway, and the Dark Empire Sourcebook said other things were responsible), it DID NOT extend over the entire Imperial fleet because it is just way too large in scope and leads to absurd questions like, "Why didn't he just mind control a Rebel cruiser at a time?"

However, I conceed that Palpatine indeed had a significant degree of mental domination, and combat spirit enhancement among the Imperial fleet at Endor, and the loss of this could've been so tramatic, combined with the loss of the Executor and the Death Star, to precipitate a total Imperial rout.

Second, my reference to C'boath was not the "coordinate the cloaked cruisers" thing, but when C'baoth personally siezed complete control of the Chimeara's entire crew all at once. His amazing strain suggests that even subtle influence on a galactic-wide scale was out of Sith Lord's abilities. Indeed; in the Sith Empire's hayday, many Dark Lords were deposed by lower Lord's armies sneaking up on them.

Third, Palpatine states in other sources his displeasure with incomplete control of the Fleet and Empire itself. He was to prepare his Dark Side Adepts on Byss to replace the Admirals and Moffs so his control would be complete (Dark Side Sourcebook).

You are confusing controll with sending out a wide area signal that made them feel "good".
This is not controll
We already know Palpatine can convince billions if not trillions of being to just look the other way, or forget what they knew.

[Illuminatus Primus]

You're still taking Thrawn's speech which put Pelleaon in his place and manipulated C'boath as proof above anything despite the fact Thrawn wasn't even part of the Imperial Navy proper, Thrawn ran all sorts of activities that he wouldn't have gotten away with (Niruaan) if Palpatine was like a God. That's absurd.

The ability to transmit does not equal the ability to monitor everyones actions.

Huh? He could control everyone in the fleet but didn't know what they were doing?

It just suggests the level of telepathic influence, circumstancial evidence, I'll admit.

Look, I like the idea of an uber Palpatine, but the statements Palpatine makes about his imcomplete power and control over the Empire and the Fleet and his needing his Dark Side Adepts on Byss to replace his Admirals and Moffs eventually in order to do this makes the only conclusion that doesn't create a canon contradiction with the Thrawn quote is that Thrawn was using some slight hyperbole.

Basically Palpatine himself described that he'd need his servants in order to do exactly what Thrawn claimed he was already doing. That doesn't make any sense. Palpatine knew what he was doing. Thrawn was just a servant, and a non-Forcing using one at that. So I came to my conclusion.

I do believe Palpatine can execute extreme telepathic control over masses. I don't see how that could apply to the whole Starfleet without contradicting other sources. And 3rd person description is always right over subjective in-universe character dialogue.

And Thrawn wasn't even a Force User. His opinion is increments above irrelevence and outright hyperbole, even without the fact that other sources make the whole concept impossible to begin with, and therefore Thrawn's opinion irrelevent. Essential Guide to Characters says Vader was as powerful as Palpatine by Endor, yet he couldn't brake Leia just a few years before if he had nearly Palpatine's power and Palpatine (in your perception) had the entire Starfleet directly manipulated through the Force? Where's the limit for Christ's sake?

Vader never used the force on leia, he was content to use ordinary meathods. Also she was (unconciously{I've always known}) a force user herself. and once again the ability to transmit != the ability to read minds.

"Her resistence to the mind probe is considerable. It will be sometime before we can extract any information from her." - Lord Darth Vader

The official literature later remarks he was refering to Force-scanning and suggestion to her mind, and he was astounded she resisted his Sith abilities.

It suggests the level of telepathic influence.

[His Divine Shadow]

Ofcourse what you're saying with the quote about the whole fleet is that he controlled them, what we're saying he simply sent out happy-go-lucky signals without the need for controll

[NecronLord]

Third, Palpatine states in other sources his displeasure with incomplete control of the Fleet and Empire itself. He was to prepare his Dark Side Adepts on Byss to replace the Admirals and Moffs so his control would be complete (Dark Side Sourcebook).

Cannon>DFY trilogy>>>>>>>>WEG

[Illuminatus Primus]

Conceeded.

As long as we're not talking outright manipulation and control, I can't see how it contradicts other sources.

That makes the only thing Thrawn was wrong about was that that's absence caused the Empire's destruction.

[Illuminatus Primus]

Third, Palpatine states in other sources his displeasure with incomplete control of the Fleet and Empire itself. He was to prepare his Dark Side Adepts on Byss to replace the Admirals and Moffs so his control would be complete (Dark Side Sourcebook).

Cannon>DFY trilogy>>>>>>>>WEG

Wrong. There is no canon heirarchy. WEG is canon until proven absurd/obviously wrong, or if we're talking about RPG stats, which represent real abilities but are not themselves continuity.

If you put together Rostini's "everything is canon" quote. Lucas' nebulous quote which really amounts to him saying that the movies are his work, and the rest is others really, and Sansweet's quote (which could be seen as invalidated by Rostini's more current quote anyway), and you get this picture:

Absolute Canon (or simply known as Canon frequently on these boards): the movies. Never wrong, all truth and interpretations revolve around the idea that these are never wrong and can't be twisted. Are expanded apon by screenplay, comic, and novel versions of the films.

Canon (also known as Official on this board, but the idea is the same): Everything EU except Infinites and Game Stats/Mechanics. All contradictions and messy EU confusion are cleared up by either newer sources, continuity fixes, or fan speculation.

Both WEG and the novels occupy the same level of legitimacy. And WEG's Dark Empire Sourcebook post-dates the Thrawn Trilogy, so it takes into acount everything inside the Thrawn Trilogy and actually is the deciding element in any percieved contradiction between the TTT and itself because the DES was deliberately written with questions about the TTT taken in mind.