Species 8472 vs The Galactic Empire

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 11:00am

As for not being able to open portals outside of a certain stretch of DQ - why? explain to me why you think so.
We know they have built their base's accross the DQ, we know that they can open portals at least 10,000 LY from the Northwest passgae and we know they have holdings in the BQ.
This all points to the fact that the portals arent limited or that their range is rather large (a couple of Quadrants at least), so explain why you think its only allows entry into a small part of the DQ.
Also we have the 8472 spies being almost ready to go and the fact that they will be on their mission within weeks (including finishing their training) - there is no mention of an 50 year travel time or anything of that nature and the Voyager crew think earth is in immediate danger, thats 8472 in the AQ.

So we have 8472 all over the DQ, We have them in the BQ (and the reference of this being fair away implies the far side of the Beta quadrant considering Voyagers position during Unimatrix Zero should have put it very near the DQ/BQ border) and we have them attacking the AQ, and the crew of Voyager seem to think that they could launch an assault without very much effort and no mention of a huge travel time.

Therefore we have the DQ, Probably all of the BQ and at least some of the AQ - that adds up at a low end of half the galaxy (approx) and could add to far more (like say the entire galaxy).

There you go however I will add we see them open a portal in orbit of a borg world outside of the northwest passage in scorpion part 1.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 11:03am

Stormbringer:Fight back how?????? if they cant enter fludic space.

Tap.. Tap.. Is this thing on? I have mentioned this already and also remember that with the wide ranging portal ability 8472 can hit and run often and in many places.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 11:19am

Explain the existence of the North West passage- why bother with a narrow corridor that forms an obvious choke point for attack as described in Scorpion where if they could go all across the galaxy at will (as I know you are so desperate for them to be capable of) they could execute a far more sound strategy hmm? Surprising that you don't mention that at all. Instead you offer this up-

Appeal to the omniscience of the crew of Voyager. Pray tell, wtf do they know that we don't? I wasn't aware that they became omniscient- paranoid yes.

and the reference of this being fair away implies the far side of the Beta quadrant considering Voyagers position during Unimatrix Zero should have put it very near the DQ/BQ border

More uber-optimisitc appraisals of subjective dialog. They're far away. Oh that must mean the other side of the Beta Quadrant

Why can't the Empire enter fluidic space btw?

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-02 11:20am

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer:Fight back how?????? if they cant enter fludic space.

But as soon as they poke their noses into Imperial Space, they' get it broken. They can retreat but they can't do jack shit in the Wars-verse unless they're willing to take casualties.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-12-02 11:27am

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer:Fight back how?????? if they cant enter fludic space.

Why can't they? If Voyager and the Borg could, a Carrack-class could probably handle itself.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 11:30am

Stormbringer:Imp planets outnumber imp ships - therefore they cant protect evrywhere.

Vympel: Prove the imps can enter Fludic space and im not saying Voyagers crew know everything im saying Voys crew, the Borg and 8472 all think it should work unless you have a solid reason to doubt this then we follow their lead, we have proof that 8472 can reach the AQ/BQ therefore we know they have the ability to cover alot of space in a short time, give me a counter reason other than 8472 consolidating one area of space before expanding out.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 11:32am

IG-88E: Yeah just like those warp drives, replicators and transporters every Carrack carries around

, its not about actually surviving in fluidic space its about getting there, prove the imps can.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-02 11:33am

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer:Imp planets outnumber imp ships - therefore they cant protect evrywhere.

Only when they're concentrated in fleets. Dispersing them would allow them to cover virtually every planet. As Iggy said, even an old Carrack would eat a bio-ship alive. Hell a sqadron of fighters would put up a hell of a fight.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-12-02 11:35am

TheDarkling wrote:IG-88E: Yeah just like those warp drives, replicators and transporters every Carrack carries around , its not about actually surviving in fluidic space its about getting there, prove the imps can.

WTF are you talking about? I'm saying that if a fully sealed starship like the Voyager can enter and operate in fluidic space, an Imp ship can probably do the same.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 11:38am

TheDarkling wrote:IG-88E: Yeah just like those warp drives, replicators and transporters every Carrack carries around , its not about actually surviving in fluidic space its about getting there, prove the imps can.

Ah I see the Imperials have technology that the Feds could only masturbate with vaseline about yet they can't enter fluidic space. Pray tell, what wonderful technology allows the Borg and Voyager to enter fluidic space, and explain how this would be beyond the already technologically superior Empire?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 11:42am

I would also add that Darkling has yet to prove his uber galaxy/universe spanning fluidic space wormholes that can be opened wherever he wants- unless of course the crew of Voyager all became the Q, and we take dialog and extrapolate it to absurdity to prove what we want.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-02 12:03pm

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer:Fight back how?????? if they cant enter fludic space.

Tap.. Tap.. Is this thing on? I have mentioned this already and also remember that with the wide ranging portal ability 8472 can hit and run often and in many places.

What is the use of hit and run raids or point destruction raids or for that matter area destruction raids if you can't destroy anything.

Planetary shields in the SW universe have shown their capability to deter the fire power of a fleet of stardestroyers. They have shown that they can even withstand for a slit second, the power of the Deathstar. How would an attack of S8.... be of significance. And if they choose the insignificant planets with no planetary shields to attack, then they choose the planets with little if no stategic or tactical targets to destroy.

Whats the use of raids if you can't hurt anything that the enemy cares about? Any significant mass of S8..... ships moving for a target would be intersepted by a opposing Imperial fleet, about all they could do is pop out of fluidic space(won't the fluid squirt into open space when they open the door?) and attack a underdefended, unimportant planet or installation.

Ender · Post by **Ender** » 2002-12-02 12:51pm

beyond hope wrote:I wonder if he realizes he just agreed with you, Ender?

Probably not.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 02:02pm

Stormbringer: The empire has more planets than ships they have an estimated 12 million ships and 50 million inhabitated planets/systems, you can I assume "do the math".

Knife: Planetary shields are not always on and take 30 mins to activate 8472 attacks take less than 1 minute, by the way when did a planetary shield hold off a fleet of ISD's (just wondering) not to mention the firepower of 8472 is unknown.
Also the key droid production planet of the entire empire had no defense fleet or planetary shields - I think you over estimate how widespread such shields are (infact I would imagine the emperor tried to surpress such construction this is however beside the point).

Vympel: I have provided 7 or 8 pieces of evidence that point to my conclusion you have presented one vague opinion if you haavent got anything else to back up you claims about fluidic space I will accept your concession.

Concession accepted (

maybe I jumpted the gun, never mind).

IG-88E: Have you got proof indicating the empire can open a portal to fluidic space, if not then we cant assume they can just because "imps smarter than federation" when they arent alot of indications of such and certainly not in this field.

Everything you have raised here is covered in the thread I linked to, warsies complain about people not readings Wongs site- well maybe its time you guys did your homework instead of wastng time on already answered (many times over) questions and utter misunderstanding of canon.

I should have known coming into this thread that the B team would be out in force

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-12-02 02:35pm

TheDarkling wrote: IG-88E: Have you got proof indicating the empire can open a portal to fluidic space, if not then we cant assume they can just because "imps smarter than federation" when they arent alot of indications of such and certainly not in this field.

Whoops. I think I've misrepresented myself. My question was: Why would an Imperial ship have trouble entering an open portal the way Voyager did (regardless of how it opened)?

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-12-02 02:37pm

Darkling, where is it stated that it takes half an hour to activate shields? The most I've ever seen is that it takes a few minutes, although in TESB the Rebels immediately activated their shields upon detecting Vader's fleet. And what is this droid production planet you speak of, and how do you know it doesn't have shields? As for planetary shields holding off Star Destroyer fleets, the crappy partial shield used in TESB was capable of stopping any bombardment by a SSD and its escorting ISDs. Full planetary shields are much more powerful.

Stormbringer · Post by **Stormbringer** » 2002-12-02 02:48pm

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer: The empire has more planets than ships they have an estimated 12 million ships and 50 million inhabitated planets/systems, you can I assume "do the math".

Okay, so they just leave the shielded systems and use fighter squadrons. That should do the trick.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-12-02 02:51pm

Those bioships are completely helpless while they form up around the planet killer. Fighters, system patrol craft, and corvettes (which I'm sure most, if not all planets have) will be able to crush them while they do that.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 02:54pm

It was stated in WEG somewhere (personally I would burn the RPG's and send them to a flaming death (at least when it comes to vs debates)) but even a few minutes is too long to save the imps.
The droid planet I speak of was the planet IG-88 took over which was said to be the most important droid production planet, that it had ancient defenses and that there was no fleet stationed there - these facts sum upto key industrial planets being undefended (not all of them of course the shipyards would get protection but some important worlds seem to go without).

The Rebel shield was smaller thus I would imagine it would be quicker to raise although Im not sure about it being less powerfull than other shields (it probably was but I cant say as I have anything to backup that guess).

IG-88E:I dont think Imp ships would have a problem in fluidic space (they should but then again so should Voyager so we will let it slip) however its the empires ability to gain access to 8472's domain that I question.

Lord Pounder · Post by **Lord Pounder** » 2002-12-02 02:54pm

TheDarkling wrote:Stormbringer: The empire has more planets than ships they have an estimated 12 million ships and 50 million inhabitated planets/systems, you can I assume "do the math".

Knife: Planetary shields are not always on and take 30 mins to activate 8472 attacks take less than 1 minute, by the way when did a planetary shield hold off a fleet of ISD's (just wondering) not to mention the firepower of 8472 is unknown.
Also the key droid production planet of the entire empire had no defense fleet or planetary shields - I think you over estimate how widespread such shields are (infact I would imagine the emperor tried to surpress such construction this is however beside the point).

Vympel: I have provided 7 or 8 pieces of evidence that point to my conclusion you have presented one vague opinion if you haavent got anything else to back up you claims about fluidic space I will accept your concession.

Concession accepted ( maybe I jumpted the gun, never mind).

IG-88E: Have you got proof indicating the empire can open a portal to fluidic space, if not then we cant assume they can just because "imps smarter than federation" when they arent alot of indications of such and certainly not in this field.

Everything you have raised here is covered in the thread I linked to, warsies complain about people not readings Wongs site- well maybe its time you guys did your homework instead of wastng time on already answered (many times over) questions and utter misunderstanding of canon.

I should have known coming into this thread that the B team would be out in force

Who in the name of fuck made this assclown a council member? My pet gerbil is more qualified to be a Council Member.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 03:00pm

It takes about 10 seconds to get into formation and 13 seconds to complete firing this doesnt give foghters alot of time nor do fighters carry enough firepower to take bioships (not standard ties at least although its possible proton torps could do the trick) 8472 could send ships to cover the pk group and ties have poor ranges and their speed isnt exactly great either.

Darth Pounder:No one made me a council member I simply post enough to be one, I must however say that in light of your little outburst I question the relationship between you and your gerbil - you sure he isnt just letting you think you are in charge.... come clean he told you to type that didnt he.... come on admit it

.

Post by **Kuja** » 2002-12-02 03:00pm

TheDarkling wrote:IG-88E:I dont think Imp ships would have a problem in fluidic space (they should but then again so should Voyager so we will let it slip) however its the empires ability to gain access to 8472's domain that I question.

I agree, although if they find an opend portal of decent size, S8's in for a nasty time.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-02 03:01pm

Jim Raynor wrote:Darkling, where is it stated that it takes half an hour to activate shields? The most I've ever seen is that it takes a few minutes, although in TESB the Rebels immediately activated their shields upon detecting Vader's fleet. And what is this droid production planet you speak of, and how do you know it doesn't have shields? As for planetary shields holding off Star Destroyer fleets, the crappy partial shield used in TESB was capable of stopping any bombardment by a SSD and its escorting ISDs. Full planetary shields are much more powerful.

And on top of that, you are ignoring the probability of the planet having some sort of sensor net to detect ships inbound. The ability of even a shitty rebel base to detect incoming ships into its area would indicate that a more heavily fortified planet would be able to do atleast the same.

Are you suggesting that the S8.... ships would open a portal up right at the target planet? If so, then a whole new score of defensive tactics can be brought to bear on the S8's, not to mention the oppertunity for Imperial ships to get a free opening into fluidic space to attack the "unreachable" home front of the S8.....'s.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 03:02pm

The nature of the portals seems to be that they close after the ships have transitted through them, the ones in the northwest passage were in constant use so they stayed open but in using hit and run tactics against the empire portals arent going to stay open for very long.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 03:05pm

They did exactly that - opening a portal in orbit appeared, wasted the planet and where gone again inside 60 seconds.

I would also like you to explain why you think the rebels display less military tech than rim worlds (obviously important worlds will have imperial grade defenses but other worlds wont necessarily).

I have other things to do I will be back later.