Klingons with X-Wings

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 06:35pm

Alyeska wrote:That would be absolutely the worst example. You can't argue its a shuttle and has shitty targeting sensors. You can't argue that they were firing on a smallship. No, its one capitalship firing on another, and missing terribly.

You can always make up an excuse for one-time abberations like this. Equinox was heavily damaged by those aliens, and had only minimal shielding and photons available. Why not suppose that the sensors were heavily damaged as well?

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 06:42pm

brianeyci wrote:Thanks Alyeska.
If I am understanding this correctly, take your 3 square meter figure at 50 meters, and use 13 m by 1 m side profile of X-Wing, then phasers can hit X-Wings on side with 100% accuracy at around 200 m. Is this correct?
This would mean death for X-Wings. X-Wings routinely close to point-blank range of capitals.

As evidenced by what exactly?

If TIE's have the same range of X-Wings, and taking ANH to represent range... well X-Wings are fucked. Is this what you mean?

Thanks for ignoring the absurdly powerfull jamming going on in ANH. Trek forces are going to duplicate this how?

Of course, if the phaser targets the orthogonal view front and back, smallest profile, lets say 1 m by 1 m, phasers have 100% accuracy from around 17 m hitting directly fore and aft. But the chances of phasers locking on directly orthogonal to the front and b ack is remote I think, except on the initial attack run. After that, X-Wings piloted by Klingons will be strafing and expose their sides to phaser lock.

At ranges of thousands of kilometers thanks to the absurd acceleration advantages of X-Wings. Why don't you recalculate your hit propabilities for that.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 06:57pm

Batman wrote:As evidenced by what exactly?

Read Alyeska's calcs man. Do you want me to spell it out for you?

Alyeska says 3 meter squared at 50 meter perfect accuracy. Put 13 over x equals 3 over 50 and solve the equation. 13 being side profile of X-Wing roughly by 1 meter tall 13 meters long. Duh. X = 200 m.

Thanks for ignoring the absurdly powerfull jamming going on in ANH. Trek forces are going to duplicate this how?

Of course not, but this is Klingon X-Wings. Jamming should not be a factor, and if it is ST capital ships should have more advanced jamming suites on virtue of being capital ships. What about the Trek side? We hear canon evidence of thousands of kilometers of range, obviously ECM works for them to lower their range by two orders of magnitude down to under 1 km.

The Wounded wrote: DATA
The warship is three hundred
thousand kilometers from the
Phoenix. It is opening fire.
The Phoenix has taken a direct
hit.

I submit that ECM is a non-factor in this op, because unless the X-Wings themselves generate the powerful ECM, ST capital ships will have their own ECM which is powerful enough to lower ST effective combat ranges two orders of magnitude.

Have any numbers for ECM effectiveness? Can you quantify it? No? Then we ignore it, especially since the op is only Klingons flying X-Wings and not ISD's.

At ranges of thousands of kilometers thanks to the absurd acceleration advantages of X-Wings. Why don't you recalculate your hit propabilities for that.

I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I am using Alyeska's method of determining a cone of fire.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 07:08pm

brianeyci wrote:
Batman wrote:As evidenced by what exactly?
Read Alyeska's calcs man. Do you want me to spell it out for you?

I'm not doubting Aly's calcs. I'm doubting your assumption that X-Wings regularly close to within 200m of their target.

Thanks for ignoring the absurdly powerfull jamming going on in ANH. Trek forces are going to duplicate this how?
Of course not, but this is Klingon X-Wings.

So?

Jamming should not be a factor, and if it is ST capital ships should have more advanced jamming suites on virtue of being capital ships.

Not as opposed to Wars sensors, no. The Klingons have W-Wings, therefore they have Wars sensors. Evidence that Trek jamming affects Wars sensors, please.

What about the Trek side? We hear canon evidence of thousands of kilometers of range, obviously ECM works for them to lower their range by two orders of magnitude down to under 1 km.

For Trek sensors.

I submit that ECM is a non-factor in this op, because unless the X-Wings themselves generate the powerful ECM, ST capital ships will have their own ECM which is powerful enough to lower ST effective combat ranges two orders of magnitude.

And that affects X-Wings how exactly? They are NOT facing Wars ECM therefore Wars engagement range limitations do not apply.

Have any numbers for ECM effectiveness? Can you quantify it? No? Then we ignore it, especially since the op is only Klingons flying X-Wings and not ISD's.

You're still trying for that VI title I see. The very point is that there is no Wars style ECM, therefore there is no reason for the X-Wings to close to point-blank range. They can pound the Trek ships from outside their weapons range with impunity.

At ranges of thousands of kilometers thanks to the absurd acceleration advantages of X-Wings. Why don't you recalculate your hit propabilities for that.
I don't know what the hell you are talking about. I am using Alyeska's method of determining a cone of fire.

Which assumes engagement ranges as shown in Trek. Which X-Wings can get out of in a fraction of a second.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-10 07:15pm

brianeyci, something to consider. Your trying to fit surface area calculations into a spherical calculation. They don't exactly fit.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 07:17pm

W-Wings? I actually posted the Klingons have W-Wings? Typo or not this is embarrasing.

X-Wings! X-Wings!

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 07:23pm

Batman wrote:I'm not doubting Aly's calcs. I'm doubting your assumption that X-Wings regularly close to within 200m of their target.

Fine, so you agree that without ECM its 200 m for 13 squared surface area perfect accuracy.

Thanks for ignoring the absurdly powerfull jamming going on in ANH. Trek forces are going to duplicate this how?
Of course not, but this is Klingon X-Wings.
So?

So, show me that it is the X-Wings that have the ECM suites and not the ISDs.

Not as opposed to Wars sensors, no. The Klingons have W-Wings, therefore they have Wars sensors. Evidence that Trek jamming affects Wars sensors, please.

You can't change the rules in the middle of the game buster. Evidence that Wars jamming affects Trek sensors please? If not, Trek can shoot out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers. What is the range of X-Wing firepower without ECM? Hundreds of thousands of kilometers?

That is why I propose we ignore ECM entirely.

For Trek sensors.

Man, you can't argue "ECM works on one sensor and not another sensor". That's like saying "My superconductive armor is better than your bubble shield". We always go back to magnitude rather than discuss the mechanisms. Of course, with ECM, it is different because ECM is specialized. Therefore, we should ignore it.

And that affects X-Wings how exactly? They are NOT facing Wars ECM therefore Wars engagement range limitations do not apply.

I can say the fucking same thing. The X-Wings are not facing Trek ECM and therefore Trek ECM doesn't apply. You are the one that brought up ECM, now give me the proof. Good proof would be to take the ratio of Wars ECM effectiveness against Trek ECM effectiveness. Trek is two orders of magnitude. Is Wars more?

You're still trying for that VI title I see. The very point is that there is no Wars style ECM, therefore there is no reason for the X-Wings to close to point-blank range. They can pound the Trek ships from outside their weapons range with impunity.

And Trek can pound the Wars ship out of their range with impunity because there is no Trek ECM. The only evidence you've provided is that because the ECM is Wars somehow it has an advantage. Please. Either ignore the issue because ECM is not compatable, or show me that Wars ECM is more powerful than Trek ECM. And Trek ECM lowers combat ranges by two orders of magnitude.

Which assumes engagement ranges as shown in Trek. Which X-Wings can get out of in a fraction of a second.

Depends on how fast a phaser shot goes. If a phaser shot goes near to c, which I suspect it does, then unless X-Wings move at c they won't be able to dodge it and therefore acceleration is a red herring. More on this later.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 07:25pm

Alyeska wrote:brianeyci, something to consider. Your trying to fit surface area calculations into a spherical calculation. They don't exactly fit.

Yeah well, its 220 meters of my calculator by solving for the equation, so I arbitrarily shaved off two significant digits. Is this enough to compensate? At the most it will not be a huge difference. Perfect accuracy at 200 m against X-Wings or perfect accuracy at 180 m... how big can the error be?

Brian

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-10 07:29pm

Let me put it this way. If you fit a 200 square inch circle with a 200 square inch cube, you will find that the cube does not cover all of the circle.

So if we have a 400 square foot target, rectucangular, trying to be shot at with a cone area of accuracy within 400 square feet, your going to get 90% or less accuracy.

Imagine trying to hit a target that is 400 square feet, but its actualy 1 foot wide, and 400 feet long? Your accuracy is going to be less then 10% on hitting it.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 07:37pm

Alyeska wrote:Let me put it this way. If you fit a 200 square inch circle with a 200 square inch cube, you will find that the cube does not cover all of the circle.

So if we have a 400 square foot target, rectucangular, trying to be shot at with a cone area of accuracy within 400 square feet, your going to get 90% or less accuracy.

Of course. I understand this.

Imagine trying to hit a target that is 400 square feet, but its actualy 1 foot wide, and 400 feet long? Your accuracy is going to be less then 10% on hitting it.

Of course, which is why I stated 20 m distance for 100% accuracy against X-Wings taking the orthogonal fore and aft target profiles. When X-Wings pass though, computer will obviously take the most liberal surface area to target, the sides.

Okay, modify it. I calculated the area of a circle with 13 volume. Now that means 30% chance to hit the longassed target based on it being 13 x 1. Okay, at 200 m that is 30%, so that's 60 m with 100% accuracy.

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 07:51pm

brianeyci wrote:
Batman wrote:I'm not doubting Aly's calcs. I'm doubting your assumption that X-Wings regularly close to within 200m of their target.
Fine, so you agree that without ECM its 200 m for 13 squared surface area perfect accuracy.

Which is irrelevant as the X-Wings have no need to get this close.

Of course not, but this is Klingon X-Wings.
So?
So, show me that it is the X-Wings that have the ECM suites and not the ISDs.
Not as opposed to Wars sensors, no. The Klingons have W-Wings, therefore they have Wars sensors. Evidence that Trek jamming affects Wars sensors, please.
You can't change the rules in the middle of the game buster. Evidence that Wars jamming affects Trek sensors please? If not, Trek can shoot out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers. What is the range of X-Wing firepower without ECM? Hundreds of thousands of kilometers?

Thousands of kilometres at the very least. Evidence of Trek ships hitting X-Wing sized targets maneuvring at thousands of g's at those ranges, if you would?
Who said anything about Wars jamming affecting Trek sensors? The point is Trek jamming not affecting [i)Wars[/i] ones. Therefore there's no need for the X-Wings to close to point-blank range to attack.

For Trek sensors.
Man, you can't argue "ECM works on one sensor and not another sensor"

Yes I can. It's after all a real world fact. By all means fool an IR sensor with a radar jammer.

And that affects X-Wings how exactly? They are NOT facing Wars ECM therefore Wars engagement range limitations do not apply.
I can say the fucking same thing. The X-Wings are not facing Trek ECM and therefore Trek ECM doesn't apply.

Agreed. As no Trek forces were around for ANH this is relevant why?

You are the one that brought up ECM, now give me the proof. Good proof would be to take the ratio of Wars ECM effectiveness against Trek ECM effectiveness. Trek is two orders of magnitude. Is Wars more?

Are you on drugs? What kind of evidence is two orders of magnitude? I can only assume you mean 'it reduces Trek weapon lock-on range by two orders of magnitude'. SO WHAT? Prove that it can do so to Wars sensors. Especially as something as simple as EO would grant multiple-km ranges to Wars.

You're still trying for that VI title I see. The very point is that there is no Wars style ECM, therefore there is no reason for the X-Wings to close to point-blank range. They can pound the Trek ships from outside their weapons range with impunity.
And Trek can pound the Wars ship out of their range with impunity because there is no Trek ECM.

Absolutely. If they can hit them.. There is not a single example of a Fed ship hitting a fighter-size target at those ranges. None.Nada. Zilch.

The only evidence you've provided is that because the ECM is Wars somehow it has an advantage.

You're REALLY trying for that VI, Brian. I'm ignoring ECM because in this scenario it doesn't matter..

Please. Either ignore the issue because ECM is not compatable, or show me that Wars ECM is more powerful than Trek ECM. And Trek ECM lowers combat ranges by two orders of magnitude.

I AM ignoring ECM. Which is why X-Wings aren't confined to spitting-image combat ranges.What YOU are ignoring that the Fed's ability to hit corvette-sized targets at a few hundred meters does NOT mean they will hit X-Wings at thousands of kilometers.

Which assumes engagement ranges as shown in Trek. Which X-Wings can get out of in a fraction of a second.
Depends on how fast a phaser shot goes. If a phaser shot goes near to c, which I suspect it does,

In opposition to all visual evidence.

then unless X-Wings move at c they won't be able to dodge it and therefore acceleration is a red herring.

Completely ignoring the reaction time of the Fed ship. X-Wing comes in, shoots, retreats. By the time the Feds are ready to fire its already out of range. Completey ignoring the phasers likely inability to track such fast a target.

The Silence and I · Post by **The Silence and I** » 2005-02-10 08:22pm

I AM ignoring ECM. Which is why X-Wings aren't confined to spitting-image combat ranges.What YOU are ignoring that the Fed's ability to hit corvette-sized targets at a few hundred meters does NOT mean they will hit X-Wings at thousands of kilometers.

Erm, I was under the impression brianeyci's point was that ignoring ECM Trek weapons range balloons out to ~ 1 light sec...i.e. Trek has ECM too, and if we take away both sides ECM then War's long range is countered by Trek's similarly long range.

So what is the problem again, if both of you are in fact ignoring ECM for both sides?

If you are instead taking issue with the idea Trek could actually hit an X-Wing at that light second range, then that's something entirely else and I apologise for misreading.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 08:30pm

The Silence and I wrote: If you are instead taking issue with the idea Trek could actually hit an X-Wing at that light second range, then that's something entirely else and I apologise for misreading.

That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 08:31pm

Okay, lets focus on the non-ECM combat ranges argument then. Ready?

Thousands of kilometres at the very least. Evidence of Trek ships hitting X-Wing sized targets maneuvring at thousands of g's at those ranges, if you would?

If without ECM Trek can go out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the logical inference is that Trek ships would be able to hit such small targets at around the same ratio without ECM. Take 300k km as the maximum range, and 50 km (this should be far greater actually, perhaps three orders of magnitude given that we see Trek ships go routinely to 50 m rather than 50 km) as the effectiveness of Trek ECM. 300k over 50 equals x over .6, .6 being 60 meters as 100% accuracy against an X-Wing sized target (thanks Alyeska). Solve for X, and you get 3600 km range with 100% accuracy against X-Wing sized targets without Trek ECM around.

Now show me the converse. Evidence of how effective Wars ships are fighting without ECM? Evidence of accuracy? I didn't think so. What about numbers for maneuverbility rather than some vague appeal to "X-Wings move fast?" I'm talking sublight here. Hundreds of g's doesn't

Yes I can. It's after all a real world fact. By all means fool an IR sensor with a radar jammer.

Fine. Show me Wars weapons range without ECM and you have a case. Also show me Wars accuracy at that range without ECM. I already gave you a figure, 3600 km on X-Wing sized target without Trek ECM.

Agreed. As no Trek forces were around for ANH this is relevant why?

Fine, show me that Wars weapons range without ECM, and show me wars accuracy at that range. I already gave you a figure, 3600 km without Trek ECM on X-Wing sized target.

Are you on drugs? What kind of evidence is two orders of magnitude? I can only assume you mean 'it reduces Trek weapon lock-on range by two orders of magnitude'. SO WHAT? Prove that it can do so to Wars sensors. Especially as something as simple as EO would grant multiple-km ranges to Wars.

Don't have to prove it, since we are no longer talking about it since you have obviously chosen the "Wars sensors cannot be affected by Trek ECM and Trek ECM can't be affected by Wars sensors" rather than ignoring the issue. Show Wars weapons range without ECM, and show wars accuracy at that range? No numbers, no case. I have a number.

Pit those multiple kilometer ranges against 3600 km 100% accuracy against X-Wings anyday. Have any hard numbers at all? Any numbers for Wars weapons range without ECM and Wars accuracy at that range? I didn't think so.

Absolutely. If they can hit them.. There is not a single example of a Fed ship hitting a fighter-size target at those ranges. None.Nada. Zilch.

Gave you a number above. Do you have a number?

I AM ignoring ECM. Which is why X-Wings aren't confined to spitting-image combat ranges.What YOU are ignoring that the Fed's ability to hit corvette-sized targets at a few hundred meters does NOT mean they will hit X-Wings at thousands of kilometers.

Sure it does, math says so. Show me your numbers. You don't have any? For shits and giggles, why don't you tell me the effective range of X-Wings when ECM isn't in effect? Thousands of kilometers? Hundreds of kilometers? Do you have a figure for X-Wing fighter accuracy? Any figures at all? Please.

In opposition to all visual evidence.

We'll see. I created a thread in PST to discuss the very issue, care to join?

Completely ignoring the reaction time of the Fed ship. X-Wing comes in, shoots, retreats. By the time the Feds are ready to fire its already out of range. Completey ignoring the phasers likely inability to track such fast a target.

X-Wings are piloted by Klingons. Klingons do not shoot and retreat, as has been discussed for five pages. And you did not read the pages before, when I provided evidence that Federation sensors can track fast moving maneuverable targets such as the Romulan Maurader. Hitting strike craft in space is ancient for Starfleet, look at how the Maurader moves. That's more maneuverable than an X-Wing, the Maurader moves so fast that the stars blur and phaser/photons can't hit it, photons rated at 600 m/s and phasers maybe close to c. Yet the sexy Vulcan and Archer will devise a countermeasure in tomorrow's episode.

Everybody talks about maneuverability and accuracy, but nobody has provided any numbers who is debating the Klingons using BOP vs X-Wing argument other than me. They keep referring to vague maneuverability, vague accuracy. I have hard numbers, you don't, you lose.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 08:59pm

Batman wrote:
The Silence and I wrote: If you are instead taking issue with the idea Trek could actually hit an X-Wing at that light second range, then that's something entirely else and I apologise for misreading.
That's it, as far as I'm concerned.

I did the above calcs wrong. Its 300k km over 50 km equals x over 0.06, since 100 m is 1 km, not 10 m (I did conversion wrong). That should work out to about 360 km range with 100% accuracy on X-Wing sized targets assuming ECM drops Trek from 300k km to 50 km

But, if we take visuals literally (as we should) and say Trek range is reduced from 300k km to 1 km with ECM, then its 300k km over 1 km equals x over 0.06 km. Which equals 18000 km range effectiveness against X-Wing sized targets with 100% accuracy.

Any figures of yours Batman?

Brian

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 09:06pm

brianeyci wrote:Okay, lets focus on the non-ECM combat ranges argument then. Ready?
Thousands of kilometres at the very least. Evidence of Trek ships hitting X-Wing sized targets maneuvring at thousands of g's at those ranges, if you would?
If without ECM Trek can go out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the logical inference is that Trek ships would be able to hit such small targets at around the same ratio without ECM

Why?

Take 300k km as the maximum range, and 50 km (this should be far greater actually, perhaps three orders of magnitude given that we see Trek ships go routinely to 50 m rather than 50 km) as the effectiveness of Trek ECM. 300k over 50 equals x over .6, .6 being 60 meters as 100% accuracy against an X-Wing sized target (thanks Alyeska). Solve for X, and you get 3600 km range with 100% accuracy against X-Wing sized targets without Trek ECM around.

Assuming X-Wings followed Trek maneuvring patterns, which they don't. Not that I'm really certain I follow your reasoning here.

Now show me the converse. Evidence of how effective Wars ships are fighting without ECM? Evidence of accuracy?

X-Wings hitting TIEs. You were saying? Does the term EU ring a bell?
And how pray tell does the absence of ECM affect accuracy?

I didn't think so. What about numbers for maneuverbility rather than some vague appeal to "X-Wings move fast?" I'm talking sublight here. Hundreds of g's doesn't

Err-what?

Yes I can. It's after all a real world fact. By all means fool an IR sensor with a radar jammer.
Fine. Show me Wars weapons range without ECM and you have a case.

NRO. NR ISD targetting a Vong Worldship at lighthour ranges.

Also show me Wars accuracy at that range without ECM. I already gave you a figure, 3600 km on X-Wing sized target without Trek ECM.

Assuming they behave like Trek targets. There's no reason to believe the phaser can track it.

Agreed. As no Trek forces were around for ANH this is relevant why?
Fine, show me that Wars weapons range without ECM,

Lighthours.

and show me wars accuracy at that range.

Enough to hit a Worldship in stationary orbit. Obviously inaplicable in a fight between moving combatants but I think you get my point.

I already gave you a figure, 3600 km without Trek ECM on X-Wing sized target.

Complete and utter garbage as that calculation completely ignores the maneuverability of the x-Wing.

Are you on drugs? What kind of evidence is two orders of magnitude? I can only assume you mean 'it reduces Trek weapon lock-on range by two orders of magnitude'. SO WHAT? Prove that it can do so to Wars sensors. Especially as something as simple as EO would grant multiple-km ranges to Wars.
*snip pointless wanking*
*snip more wanking*
Absolutely. If they can hit them.. There is not a single example of a Fed ship hitting a fighter-size target at those ranges. None.Nada. Zilch.
Gave you a number above. Do you have a number?[/quote}
I rest my case.
Sure it does, math says so.
Quite the opposite, actually. Not that I expect you to no about Math anymore.
Show me your numbers. You don't have any? For shits and giggles, why don't you tell me the effective range of X-Wings when ECM isn't in effect? Thousands of kilometers?
Erm-as the ECM of X-Wings is utterly and completely irrelevant, why exactly do yo bring this up?
Hundreds of kilometers? Do you have a figure for X-Wing fighter accuracy? Any figures at all? Please.
We're talking of WW2 size fighters attacking a target larger than a modern US aircraft carrier. NTM physics.
We'll see. I created a thread in PST to discuss the very issue, care to join?
Why? You'd just start bitiching once I start arguing your conclusions.
*SNIPPY nitpicking* And you did not read the pages before, when I provided evidence that Federation sensors can track fast moving maneuverable targets such as the Romulan Maurader
Evidence that Fed sensors can track targets moving in excess of 3E7c, please.
.Hitting strike craft in space is ancient for Starfleet, look at how the Maurader moves. That's more maneuverable than an X-Wing,
As evidenced by what?
the Maurader moves so fast that the stars blur
Blurspeed is approximately 40 mph.
and phaser/photons can't hit it,
Phasers have always had abominable accuracy, don't move that fast, and by your own contention PTs move at 600mps. X-Wings move at fractional c velocities and have 4-figure at least g accellerations.
Photons are rated at 600 m/s
Which is below modern rifle bullets
and phasers maybe close to c.
Just as long as you're aware that maybe is several quadrillion lightyears across.
Yet the sexy Vulcan and Archer will devise a countermeasure in tomorrow's episode
So? Completely pointless until you actually [i)quantify[/i] that Marauders maneuverability, AND show that TNG+ Trek can hit that.
They keep referring to vague maneuverability, vague accuracy. I have hard numbers, you don't, you lose.
Brian

What hard numbers would those be, pray tell?

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-10 09:09pm

Targeting and hitting a worldship sitting in an easily predictable orbit at light hours isn't THAT impressive. If the worldship was moving abour erraticly and was hit, that would be impressive.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 09:13pm

Alyeska wrote:Targeting and hitting a worldship sitting in an easily predictable orbit at light hours isn't THAT impressive. If the worldship was moving abour erraticly and was hit, that would be impressive.

Absolutely, and I'm by no means arguing Wars can do that. Nevertheless all Brianeyci was asking for was an example of Wars targeting without ECM.

Alyeska · Post by **Alyeska** » 2005-02-10 09:16pm

And that is more then sufficent. Making such a shot means that light minute shots against static targets or predictable targets is more then possible.

Batman · Post by **Batman** » 2005-02-10 09:24pm

Alyeska wrote:And that is more then sufficent. Making such a shot means that light minute shots against static targets or predictable targets is more then possible.

And once more, I agree. X-Wings, however, are neither static nor predictable. Yet they are capable of attacking capships from 1000km ranges in the absence of ECM...

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 09:45pm

Batman wrote:
If without ECM Trek can go out to hundreds of thousands of kilometers, the logical inference is that Trek ships would be able to hit such small targets at around the same ratio without ECM
Why?

Got any better idea, now's the time. If 300k km lowers down to 1 km, then you can apply the ratio. Tell me what to do if you have a better idea.

Assuming X-Wings followed Trek maneuvring patterns, which they don't. Not that I'm really certain I follow your reasoning here.

You can't because the units are wrong. See my second post.

I didn't think so. What about numbers for maneuverbility rather than some vague appeal to "X-Wings move fast?" I'm talking sublight here. Hundreds of g's doesn't
Err-what?

Sorry cut off my sentence there, cut out the last four words. I'm asking for your numbers for maneuverability and acceleration for an X-Wing. And accuracy, and range.

NRO. NR ISD targetting a Vong Worldship at lighthour ranges.

Hitting a standing target is not that impressive. Can an X-Wing fire at lighthour ranges? I don't think so.

Assuming they behave like Trek targets. There's no reason to believe the phaser can track it.

Sure it can. By tomorrow T'Pol will figure out how to fuck up the Romulans, and we'll have phaser accuracy against highly maneuverable targets moving at least enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes.

Lighthours.

Too bad, X-Wing range.

Enough to hit a Worldship in stationary orbit. Obviously inaplicable in a fight between moving combatants but I think you get my point.

X-Wing range, not ISD range.

Complete and utter garbage as that calculation completely ignores the maneuverability of the x-Wing.

You have provided no figures for maneuverability, and I have with the Romulan Maurader.

*snip pointless wanking*
*snip more wanking*

Wanking eh. Give me weapons accuracy, give me maneuverability, give me weapons ranges for X-Wings and not ISD's.

I rest my case.

Then you lose.

Quite the opposite, actually. Not that I expect you to no about Math anymore.

I'd pit my math against yours anyday. You have none. I made a mistake converting units, fine, but right now 100% accuracy at 18k km.

Erm-as the ECM of X-Wings is utterly and completely irrelevant, why exactly do yo bring this up?

Because you cannot bring up the effective range of an X-Wing without ECM. I can show that the effective range of a ST ship without ECM is 300k km. Can you? Any figures at all regarding disabled ECM? No? Too bad. Trek non-ECM ability is defined, what about Wars around no-ECM?

We're talking of WW2 size fighters attacking a target larger than a modern US aircraft carrier. NTM physics.

You still have not provided any numbers for Wars accuracy at these ranges at all. You cry and scream for me to provide numbers, yet when I ask for yours you give a vague reference to "light-hours" clearly inapplicable in this case because the firing are not X-Wing and the target is huge. What is Wars accuracy at this light hour range hrm? Any numbers for that?

Why? You'd just start bitiching once I start arguing your conclusions.

Whatever. You have no numbers so you resort to ad hominem.

Evidence that Fed sensors can track targets moving in excess of 3E7c, please.

Refuted by the speed we see X-Wings move in ANH. You think starfighters are that fast sublight? Why don't they move at this speed down the Death Star trench? How about we take warp strafing eh, how are the Klingon X-Wings going to deal with that? Any evidence that X-Wings can shoot and hit anything while they go this fast?

As evidenced by what?

As evidenced when you watch the video that I link to a couple pages back.

Phasers have always had abominable accuracy, don't move that fast, and by your own contention PTs move at 600mps. X-Wings move at fractional c velocities and have 4-figure at least g accellerations.

Then why didn't they move at these frational c velocities in ANH eh? What about blur, are we supposed to say that since the stars don't blur as the X-Wings fly by so they move less than 40 MPH? Give me a break. The X-Wing flies by the turbolaser battery, are those servos supposed to track targets moving at fractional c velocities? Screen evidence overrules whatever wankfest you are taking. What about Trek starts using warp strafing eh?

Sources for this X-Wing speed please, and whether X-Wings can hit targets while moving this fast.

So? Completely pointless until you actually [i)quantify[/i] that Marauders maneuverability, AND show that TNG+ Trek can hit that.

I have, maneuverability at least 600 m/s based on it being able to dodge a photon torpedo.

Do you seriously believe that TNG+ Trek, 200 years later, would not have greater phaser accuracy than Enterprise? Go back and read what Silence and I has said, he agrees that the Maurader hypothesis is consistent with the evidence and explains a lot of details.

What hard numbers would those be, pray tell?

Hard numbers based on 60 m 100% accuracy against an X-Wing inflated to 300k km without ECM around. What numbers do you have. Anything? X-Wing related, not ISD? If you say an X-Wing has the range of an ISD, that's like saying a fighter plane has the range of a battleship main gun. Its not necessarily true.

Brian

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-10 09:56pm

Just for shits and giggles Batman, tell me the range of an X-Wing shooting a target that is not affected by ECM. Then I can do the same ratio thingy as well. ISD weapons range is not X-Wing weapons range. Clear indication of no ECM too (or else it contradicts movies since ECM on lowers range to movie range), since the Trek incident with 300k km was against inferior Cardassian ship which had the prefix code of the Phoenix, and we have reasonable evidence to conclude that ECM was disabled because we never see Trek ships fire at this range.

Brian

Darth Fanboy · Post by **Darth Fanboy** » 2005-02-10 11:37pm

brianeyci wrote:
Robert Walper wrote:That could be interpreted as Klingon honor, but I'm sure the preferred conclusion would be Klingon stupidity.
Maybe, but stupidity is the last resort. For example, Picard didn't replicate thousands of projectile based weapons because he was stupid? Please. There are many other explainations, from the replicators being turned off because the main computer was locked out, to the replicators not having the patterns to create such weapons.

Klingon honor is a perfectly acceptable reason why Martok and Gowron didn't do this. If you're smart enough to use cloak to hide your numbers, you're smart enough to use cloak to attack.

Sure, but if the Klingons decide to take advantage of an X-wing's hyperdrive its out of character and thus unavailiable to them You're a pile of fucking laughs Brian you know that?

NRS Guardian · Post by **NRS Guardian** » 2005-02-11 12:52am

brianeyci wrote:
Darth Fanboy wrote:So you are arguing that the Klingons don't use any sort of intelligence gathering, or any sort of spies. Ludicrous. And btw, I don't see the Federation fielding much in the way of ground combat either, but they seem to have substantial intelligence gathering.
Strawman. I am saying that unless you have evidence otherwise, Federation counter-intelligence will be sufficient to shield their classified fleet movements from the Klingons. The existence of Klingon intelligence does not mean they will know exactly where to hit Federation fleet concentrations.

Vulcan's defenses were so great that the Romulans thought to conquer the entire planet with a handful of troops. As for Angel One, if it was close enough to come under enemy attack, given the limitations of warp drive it couldn't have been far from the border at all.
You don't seem to get it do you?

Your justification for Angel One having shielding is the following,

"Angel One is more likely to be attacked because it is at the border with the Romulans."

However, the following is also true.

"Earth is the most likely to be attacked because in its past history it has been attacked by Xindi Test Weapon, V'Ger, Whale Probe, Borg Cube I, Borg Cube II, and the Breen Attack."

Which means that there must be something special about Earth, most likely an aversion to fortification.

You also do not address why a Federation Archaeological Outpost, with no strategic or tactical significance that we know of at all, is armed with two phasers and possibly photon torpedoes, and has theatre shielding.

I have met the burden of proof for showing that Earth, totally unfortified, is the exception, not the rule. Who cares how pathetic Vulcan ground defenses are, or how outdated Betazed defenses are? They have defenses, and that's more than you can say about Earth, which is all I need to prove.

Really, Earth is totally undefended in the last ep of Voyager, and totally undefended in Nemesis? Also, there's no evidence that Earth was totally undefended in the Breen attack. Just that the Breen were able to overwhelm whatever defences were there long enough to hit SF, and not that great at that the Golden Gate bridge was still standing! Also, no Breen ships escaped.

and that they would not utilize a massive speed advantage.
Correct, because if they do not use cloak to defeat the Federation, they will also not use hyperspace in the way you suggest, to hit-and-run.

I'm no military expert but when it comes to warfare there are two things every commander wants an advantage in, speed and power. Even a Klingon is going to realize a SPEED ADVANTAGE. Plus we've already talked about how the Feds have technobabble measures to counter cloak, but there is no technobabble solution to speed, short of building a comparably fast FTL drive that is.
You don't get it do you? It is not just my opinion, but the opinion of many shared (see the link I provided) that not using cloak to its full potential is a supreme strategic blunder, not only for the Romulans but for the Klingons. It requires an explaination, and the Klingon honor explaination is the only good one that fits all the evidence without supposing that the Klingons are not stupid. Repeat with me, Federation sensors cannot defeat cloak. The one-stop technobabble solutions do not change this. Romulan sensors are stated to be as advanced as the Federation by Geordi, and Picard was able to take a cloaked BOP into orbit of Romulus.

First, the Romulans failing to detect a cloaked ship could just be overconfidence at being the masters at cloaking and not thinking to look for cloaked ships. Also, its been shown in several eps that the power signatures, ion trails, and other indirect methods are capable of detecting cloaked ships. If you think thes indirect methods are one-time technobabble solutions then I guess hydrophones and MAD are one-time technobabble solutions to detect subs. Also, all your examples deal with single ships not being detected by sensors, not being able to detect a single ship is different from not being able to detect 50-500 ships.

The "In-character behavior" again. Its not the Klingon's nature to take advantage of a potential military advantage.
Sure you can. But create a counter-theory to the honor theory then that explains why when hostilities broke out, Klingons did not send fifty Vor'Chas to destroy Earth, or Vulcan, or any number of targets for that matter.

Here's a counter-theory based on the Cardy/Romulan attack on the Dominion and the Breen attack on Earth.
First it's extremely hard to keep a build-up and attack plan secret. Even the Japanese in their attack on PH knew the Americans would know something was up. What they did instead is used misdirection and other stratgies to keep the Americans guessing and keep them from concentration. Plus, America figured the Japanese would hit something closer to home rather than strike close to American soil. The Japanes tried to do the same thing with Midway as with PH however America was ready and mouse-trapped the Japanese.
What happened to the Japanese at Midway is essentially what happened to the Rom/Cardy fleet. So, your big cloaked fleet attack may work once if your enemy isn't on guard however unless you can totally destroy your enemy's war-making ability and force him to sue for peace you're now in a similar position as the Japanese. Also, how do we know in the only all-out war between the Feds and Klingons which occurred in the "Yesterdays Enterprise alternate timeline that they didn't hit the Feds with massive cloaked attack forces? How do we know the Klingons against the Cardassians didn't do this?
Second the time it takes to get as many ships as you suggest they use would provide time in which enemy intelligence could figure out what you're planning and prepare against it. Don't say "How would they know in the first place?" The Dominion knew about the attack force, and the Feds saw the Order build-up they just mistook it as build-up for an operation against the Maquis.
Third there is no proof a cloaked attack force wouldn't after entering enemy territory, either end up with an enemy fleet sitting on their target, or end up being destroyed before they can get home. In fact quite the opposite. Every major attack fleet seen in ST that has gone on a capitol-busting raid has been totally destroyed. It could be that most races aren't willing to lose an entire fleet in an attack not guaranteed to win the war. The Breen attack didn't cause the Feds too much damage, they didn't surrender or collapse, the attack was primarily a moral defeat for the Feds. So it seems to me surprise cloaked attacks are rare because they're difficult to pull off, and usually result in lossses out-weighing gains.

You know its out of character for the Feds to even want to fight a war but you'll still let them field a massive fleet to engage the Klingon homeworld.
See Dominion War.

I did the Fed-Rom-Klingon Alliance didn't field a massive fleet and go after the Cardassian homeworld until the end, after the War had gone on for 3 years.

Given enough ships to snipe the fighters!
See the above posts where I show that two hundred year old phasers will probably be enough to destroy a Romulan Maurader, which can dodge 600 m/s torpedoes. Watch the video. That is as maneuverable as I've ever seen. And I say probably because I'll know by Friday whether Archer gets destroyed by the Romulans. Since there are a few more episodes left, I believe I can safely say no.

The Ent already shot at the Marauder with phasers, only hit it when it wasn't manuevering and they didn't destroy it just disabled some systems. Also, the Marauder had already been damaged by two Ent crew members yet it was still capable of those mauevers and still escaped. Also, while the manuevers look impressive most of it is just rolls and a little bit of side to side and up and down moves no really tight turns or loops. Obi's Jedi fighter in AOTC seems more manueverable than the Marauder in turns and loops and just as manueverable in rolls and up-down side-side moves, yet it was still being hit by Slave I's guns.

A cloaked ship is not even guaranteed to go undetected given Fed methods of detecting cloaked ships.
I challenge you to find one method of detecting cloak which is plausible as a defense against a massive Klingon invasion of cloaked ships. Repeat after me, Federation sensors cannot defeat cloak. Already proven by canon numerous times, first example that comes to mind is Romulan sensors not being able to detect BOP despite being as good as the Federation, and the BOP flying all the way to Romulus and staying in orbit long enough for Picard to assfuck Spock (or mind meld, whatever you prefer).

Yet everytime the Feds either have to detect a cloaked ship or come up against better cloaking tech they still find a way to detect the ship. The only exception is the Scimitar in Nemesis. Here's a some ways to look for cloaked ships gravitational distortions, subspace distortions, ion trails, heat, power signatures not totally masked by the cloak, just to name a few. Plus in the case of the Roms theres the anomalies created by their quantum singularity power source. Nearly all of these methods would be even more effective against a fleet than a single ship due to the fact that there is simply more there to detect. Also, your example doesn't exactly hold up because the Romulans probably don't worry about cloaked ships coming from Fed territory because the Feds don't have cloaked ships. And they probably don't have cloaked ship detecting sensors on their border with the Feds for the same reason.

A hyperdrive capable fighter pops in behind enemy lines, blows a bunch of shit up, then uses hyperdrive,
Totally inconsistent with what Klingons do with cloak. Replace hyperdrive with cloak, and you get a strategy which the Klingons do not use to its full potential.

However, with hyper you can bypass whole sections of the Federation which you would have to travel through in warp with a cloaked ship, including the well defended border regions. Also, hyper allows you to attack the other side of Fed territory, which would take a ship at warp months to do unless you honestly think traveling across 8,000 light years doesn't take months if not years at warp even though Voyager one of the fastest Fed ships around couldn't travel across 70,000 light years in less than decades. And most people would agree with me the areas of the Federation months if not years away from the border regions are probably only lightly defended if they have defences at all.

the whole process takes a matter of hours, instead of days.
Again with the speed. The lack of speed of warp drive does not allow the Klingons to excuse themselves, unless you are silly enough to believe that a Klingon ship cannot hold enough supplies to cloak the few days it takes to go to Earth.

Yet days of travel means a greater chance of detection or discovery. Which isn't a problem for X-wings.

If it takes a warp capable ship days to get from Fed space to Q'o'nos. Then it takes a Hyperspace capable ship MUCH LESS TIME! WAY less time, a few days? Lets say a few is, Oh I dunno 3 seems like a few right? Its more than a couple. At a low end lets say an X wing can cross a galaxy in 10 days (very low end). Lets say Voyager crosses the length of the galaxy in say, 100 years. 100 years = 36500 days! (There I made numbers for you, happy?)
Does not mean the Klingons will use cloak at all, and I have given a reasonable hypothesis in Klingon honor to explain why they don't use cloak to its full devestating potential. If it is dishonorable to hit-and-run with cloak, it will be far more dishonorable to hit-and-run with hyperspace.

So you're saying that if Klingons were to develope transwarp before the Feds and Romulans they wouldn't use their speed advantage to hit where their enemy is weak. O.K. then you're essentially saying that the Klingons are incompetent, because any enemy even the Borg will use a speed advantage over their enemies. Also, you keep arguing that X-wings are so weak and can't do jack, yet you argue they wouldn't use the X-wings speed to attack where they have parity if not superiority in forces because Klingons don't use hit and run tactics. I could argue they don't use hit and run tactics because they don't need to in order to bring their forces to bear against an enemy in a postition of parity or superiority, especially since as you have stated all Klingon Cap ships can cloak. The reason Klingons would use hit and run tactics with X-wings is they aren't stupid and those are the only tactics that would allow the X-wing to be effective. However that isn't the case with BOPs they don't need to use hit and run tactics to be effective.

With that kind of speed advantage the Klingons can fuck around in Fed space unihibited for a while while this mighty way to big Fed fleet of yours is in transit.
If the Klingons violate Klingon honor.

What do you mean if they violate Klingon honor. Klingons attack and capture practically unarmed Cardassian Freighters and that isn't against Klingon honor. If Fed colonies are as well defended as you say then it won't be a violation of Klingon honor to attack them with X-wings because the colonies aren't defenceless, and are a threat to the X-wings.

REmember the Dominion War the AQ powers had to use the sort of ISland hopping strategy to reach Cardassia, they didn't just send every ship they fucking had there, on the same token the Dominion didn't just send everything it had to Earth, or Q'o'nos, or Romulus either.
This is a good point, but I submit the Federation wanted to island-hop because they wanted to free the Cardassians and destroy any hope of the Dominion resurrecting itself.

They wanted to island hop so they could free Cardassia? Why not just go immediately to Cardassia (as you suggest the Feds do to Q'onos) to free it, it would have been quicker. Unless as the Americans they needed to secure a line of retreat, remove enemy bases from which the Japanese could stage attacks from the American rear, and establish bases from which to stage attacks and repair and resupply.

Sun Tzu wrote:When an army has penetrated into the heart of a hostile country, leaving a number of fortified cities in its rear, it is serious ground. On serious ground, gather in plunder. On serious ground, I would try to ensure a continuous stream of supplies. On difficult ground, I would keep pushing on along the road.
You suppose that they island hop because they need a supply train, or that their forces do not have the range to attack Cardassia (the last point of Sun Tzu). You are wrong, because a large fleet of ships can obviously carry enough supplies and consumables to travel the few days it takes to go to a homeworld, proven by numerous episodes of deep penetration missions by BOP into enemy territory. Obviously there is another explaination to why the Federation island-hopped.

Thanks for making our point. Sun Tzu says make sure your not cut off from supply and take plunder (alternate means of supply) in case you are cut off. Also, American fleets in WWII could carry enough supplies to get from Hawaii to Japan. Yet that doesn't mean they didn't need supply lines, unless you think that it's practical to have warships go back and forth to resupply in an extended campaign or battle. Battles are extremely supply intensive any military unit can travel long distances without requiring much supplies yet after a battle or two if you're not resupplied you begin to lose effectiveness because you expend ordinance and use fuel at a much higher rate due to manuevering, and thus need more.

Well you disputed the fact that the X wings could hit targets while your uberwank Fed fleet was on its way to Q'o'nos and still be back in plenty of time for the battle.
No, I disputed the fact that you gave no figures for this claim. Fine, if they do, that does not mean the Federation fleet is decimated, and the X-Wings will be fighting the Federation fleet eventually, which means that they will be mincemeat to Federation capital ship fire.

How come X-wings aren't mincemeat in SW battles? Even though SW capital ships can fire faster, are more powerful, and are designed and built knowing there's going to be tiny, manuevering fighters out there attacking them and don't give me any BS about uberwank Fed computer targeting and sensors. Because SW sensors are just as good if not better considering SW has sensors that can detact cloaked ships with superior cloak tech and the Feds as you argue can't. And SW targeting is computer directed or assisted. Also, SW has Cap ships specifically designed to take out fighters yet X-wings aren't decimated. So I'm not convinced that ST ships will fare much better than SW ships against the X-wing.

On Klingon terms, in Klingon space. You really don't think the fucking Klingons wouldn't notice something like that?
Of course they will notice. That is the point. Once they notice, its time for them to head back and defend Klingon sovereign territory like their honor dictates. And then you'll want BOP rather than cheese X-Wings.

Why not have both BOPs and X-wings. Build half and half. 1500 X-wings/1,500 BOPs. BOPs do what they do best and X-wings do what they do best. Plus X-wings would give the Klingons something to defend against Peregrines allowing Negh'vars, Vor'chas, and BOPs to concentrate on destroying cap ships and not have to worry about Fed fighters attacking their weakly armed rears.

And you think the Feds would leave themselves wide open to the Romulans, or any other groups along their borders?
The Fed seems to do this a lot. See the link I provded, Cpl Kendall agrees with me that the Romulan Neutral Zone is badly patrolled, and canon evidence agrees with me.

Like they did in ST:FC? or during the Dominion War? The Nuetral Zone could be badly patrolled because the Feds have to few ships patrolling too much space. Plus they probably depend on the sensor net to tell them if and where any Roms cross.

What's their supply line like? Oh I forgot, they're going to warp straight in and continue uninhibited of course. Doesn't matter even if they did, because they are fucked when they arrive.
Fucked when they arrive huh? By what, those X-Wings that get destroyed by one torpedo or phaser hit? And the Fed can't carry enough supplies for the few days/weeks it will take to go on an offensive? Please.

Ha! Like torps are going to hit X-wings yeah right. I thought the Marauder in ENT proved small, manueverable craft aren't threatened by torps. Also, without their shields Fed ships are fucked by X-wings. The Klingon cap ships could just pound a Fed ship till its shields go down then let the X-wings knock out the bridge and weapons. Also, I doubt a Fed ship could hit a manuevering X-wing without having to fire several shots especially if there are several X-wings attacking it. And that is an improvement over ENT because the Ent couldn't even hit the manuevering Marauder with phasers once, the only time it got hits on the Marauder was when it was flying in pretty much a straight line.

God you're a fucking retard.
And you have not given enough reason why the BOP should be replaced by X-Wings which are far less durable and have less endurance other than maneuverability and hyperspace. BTW, I've shown that Federation ships can hit small fast moving maneuverable targets. See the Maurader posts.

I did see the Marauder posts, saw the ep in question in fact. Know what? Didn't see the Ent hit the Marauder once while it was doing anything more than flying in a straight line. Even then it hit the Marauder a grand total of two times in the last battle with its phasers and both times the Marauder wasn't manuevering.

Jesus tap dancing christ. Is it really against "personal honor" to be faster than one's opponent? This is your argument?
No. It is against Klingon honor to attack someone in the back with such a massive speed advantage, and then run. That is what you are proposing, with your hit-and-run tactics are you not?

Not really, even Klingons don't generally attack an opponent that has them out-matched if they can help it. That's why Gowron died. He ordered the Klingons to attack superior forces that they couldn't hope defeating. All we're suggesting is that Klingons use the X-wings speed advantage to even the odds or put them in their favor. Even Klingons try to attack so that they have the advantage.

Well I showed you examples of how SW ships can hyperspace across the galaxy in days, while Trek ships take many years. Apparently that's not good enough for you.
It is, but since you are claiming more than that, that the Klingon fleet can take out the Federation faster than a sizable Federation force can reach Klingon space and force the Klingons to show their hand, I wanted more.

Here's more. By conducting hit and run raids using BOPs and X-wings on the Fed fleet itself. The Klingons can force the Fed fleet to slow down by making them have to defend agains attacks at any time form any direction or even multiple directions. Also, if the Klingons intentionally disable Fed ships, the Klingons force the Feds to either abandon them and allow the Klingons easy kills, slow down to protect the damaged ships until they can be repaired, or pull off ships form the fleet to protect the damaged ones as they make their way back home to be repaired. Either way the Fed fleet isn't going to be getting there in days.

Except with cloak you aren't guaranteed to get across enemy lines and you arent guaranteed to escape.
Find an example of Federation detecting a large cloaked fleet without the use of a Tachyon setup which can be easily bypassed.

Show me a large cloaked fleet not being detected by the Feds without a Tayon net, or show me cloaked fleets easily bypassing said sensor nets.

Hyperdrive is too fast for the feds to do anything except guard potential targets, and if that becomes the case then they'll spend the entire time on a defensive footing and allow the Klingons to go on the offensive.
Assuming that X-Wings have the hitting power to destroy Federation targets of strategic importance without losing too many to attrition. Which you have not proven, because I have shown that colonies have 30-100 times the shielding of a Galaxy and are defended by phaser arrays and photons.

One colony, you've showed us one colony with such defences. Yet Fed ground bases don't evidence such defences. Neither does practically any TNG colony except for your example and those on or near the Neutral Zone. What about all the Maquis colonies on the Cardassian border they don't have such defences not even before it's demilitarized.

Already mentioned Fed countermeasures, and we know how long that "war" lasted also eh?
More than a few days, and how many times do I have to say that Federation countermeasures are not sufficient to defeat cloak. If you are so certain, bring out these so called countermeasures. You will see that they are not standard kit of the Federation, and the Federation can only deploy these countermeasures when they have advanced warning like in TNG Redemption. That's like saying redshirts of TOS will always carry photon grenades, when we only see Kirk use them once. One use of a technobabble solution means exotic kit, not standard kit.

Exotic kit like looking for an ion trail which takes no modification of sensors or looking for various anomolies associated with cloaking and again requires no modification to sensors. All these require is that you be aware and know what they mean, like with hydrophone listeners. So yes it require that you look for these signs, yet if you're on the Neutral Zone you better be looking for this stuff, just like hydrophone operators better be listening for propeller noises in areas where subs are known to commonly operate.

And we know the Klingons were very much involved in Cardassian territory at the time eh? Im sure even you realize that a full scale invasion of not one but two large enemy territories stetches you out and leaves you vulnerable. How were the Klingons going to invade Fed space when already so committed eh?
Fifty ships, sent on cloak to the heart of Federation space, enough to destroy Earth which has no defenses and which the Klingons would have realized had no defenses.

How do you know 50 ships is enough to destroy Earth in any practical amount of time? And what would this have gotten the Klingons except for a pissed off Federation? Would the Feds surrender? Doubtful considering the results of the Breen attack. Would the Feds seek retalliation? Possibly. Besides the Klingons weren't officially at war with the Feds at this time and were careful not to piss them off too much because they didn't want to fight a two front war. Besides the Fed-Klingon conflict was more of a cold war, though I admit it did flash hot occasionally. Destroying someone's capitol is probably the equivalent of nuking it now so I doubt the Klingons wanted their own capitol nuked especially when it probably wouldn't force the surreender of the Feds.

Cpl Kendall wrote:They don't have to sneak across. All they have to do is storm the border and get across. Then they can operate under cloak with impunity.

Assuming they can storm across. Without running into a fleet. Also, it seems to me cloaks are more of a strategic weapon than a tactical one allowing powers to stage attacks without being detected allowing them to gain operational surprise. However Napoleon had operational surprise yet still lost the Battle of Waterloo, and the Japanese had operational surprise yet still lost WWII.

Fleet of ships can be replaced by any sort of unmanned sensor net, as I recall the Feds use one near the Romulan border.
Insufficient to defend against a fleet of cloaked ships, and the sensor net was insufficient as shown in TNG Redemption where Picard needed to send a fleet to stop Sela's forces from reinforcing Duras.

The net does provide early warning though allowing the Feds to get forces into position to defend.

even if the Klingon ships cross the border you can't shoot while cloaked, you uncloak you lose your advantage, cloak only helps with stealth
Irrelevant, as you can decloak deep in Federation territory beyond the range of Federation defenses and then make a short warp to wherever you want to attack. You don't have to decloak right in front of their face.

Still have to decloak to attack, and thus open yourself to attack.

They uncloak they had better win if they want to escape. (X-wings would just hyperspace out of there and head back to Q'o'nos and be there within a matter of hours, the danger of crossing through Fed space pretty much gone.)
And cloaking makes the danger of crossing through Fed space pretty much gone. And the X-Wings better win against those fixed Federation defenses if they want to escape.

Not neccesarily because if the attack is going badly X-wings can hyper away to safety. If BOPs try that the Feds will probably track their ion trail and kill them with torps.

Because...in war...you want...to be...faster...than...the...other guy. It's so basic it's not even a fucking tactic!
It is if you want to use hyperspace to hit and run, which they don't use cloak for.

No it isn't unless you're going to argue Klingons wouldn't use the speed advantage of Transwarp. Also, every class of military vehicle gets faster and faster in RL not so they can perform hit and run, but so they can hit where the other guy won't expect it. Ala the Persian Gulf War. If you honestly expect us to think the Klingons wouldn't take advantage of an obvious advantage than you're saying the Klingons is stooopid.

brianeyci · Post by **brianeyci** » 2005-02-11 04:05am

NRS Guardian wrote:Really, Earth is totally undefended in the last ep of Voyager, and totally undefended in Nemesis? Also, there's no evidence that Earth was totally undefended in the Breen attack. Just that the Breen were able to overwhelm whatever defences were there long enough to hit SF, and not that great at that the Golden Gate bridge was still standing! Also, no Breen ships escaped.

Last episode of Voyager had Federation fleet scrambling to meet the Borg cube. Sure they learned a few things after Borg cube II, doesn't mean they started fortifying Earth. Also Breen attack does not prove that Earth has fortification, nor does it even prove SF has more ships at that point in orbit around Earth -- the Breen attackers could have been killed anywhere between Breen and Earth. My "anti-fortification" Earth hypothesis is still correct. Fine, Earth is defended, but not defended as well as the rest of the Federation, as a Federation archaeological outpost has phasers and photons, and Borg cube was able to sit in orbit around Earth without being attacked. Breen would not have gotten through if there had been the kind of shielding like the Angel One colony. Which means that Earth was probably unfortified, as we have no evidence of Earth fortifications, only fast response units.

First, the Romulans failing to detect a cloaked ship could just be overconfidence at being the masters at cloaking and not thinking to look for cloaked ships. Also, its been shown in several eps that the power signatures, ion trails, and other indirect methods are capable of detecting cloaked ships. If you think thes indirect methods are one-time technobabble solutions then I guess hydrophones and MAD are one-time technobabble solutions to detect subs. Also, all your examples deal with single ships not being detected by sensors, not being able to detect a single ship is different from not being able to detect 50-500 ships.

You do not understand cloak if you think ion trails would have worked with advanced cloaks. Ion trails only worked in TOS movie timeframe, and was never used again. Power signatures only works for out of date cloaks. Yes, 50-500 ships is different, but the Romulans were reasonably confident that 50 ships would have went to the Founder's planet undetected, which would have been the case if were not for the changeling.

You have evidence that 50-500 ships can be detected by Federation sensors? Show me the money. If not, then too bad, Federation needs a fleet of ships to detect modern cloak.

Here's a counter-theory based on the Cardy/Romulan attack on the Dominion and the Breen attack on Earth. First it's extremely hard to keep a build-up and attack plan secret. Even the Japanese in their attack on PH knew the Americans would know something was up. What they did instead is used misdirection and other stratgies to keep the Americans guessing and keep them from concentration. Plus, America figured the Japanese would hit something closer to home rather than strike close to American soil. The Japanes tried to do the same thing with Midway as with PH however America was ready and mouse-trapped the Japanese. What happened to the Japanese at Midway is essentially what happened to the Rom/Cardy fleet. So, your big cloaked fleet attack may work once if your enemy isn't on guard however unless you can totally destroy your enemy's war-making ability and force him to sue for peace you're now in a similar position as the Japanese.

Build-up does not have to be secret. Build up a huge fleet and cloak it, and fly around in Klingon space a bit then head for Fed space. They won't know what hit them.

That is an incredible false analogy. The Japanese did not have a device that allowed them to land troops in Washington without the Americans knowing and forcing a surrender. If they did you bet they would have used it, unlike the Klingons and cloak.

Also, how do we know in the only all-out war between the Feds and Klingons which occurred in the "Yesterdays Enterprise alternate timeline that they didn't hit the Feds with massive cloaked attack forces? How do we know the Klingons against the Cardassians didn't do this?

Enterprise-C sacrificed herself to defend a Klingon outpost from Romulans. Probably from this point on, the Klingons considered Federation honorable and wouldn't use dishonorable tactics against them. In the alternate timeline, Enterprise-C did not sacrifice herself.

And, you cannot show "reasonable doubt" as evidence. If you have proof that the Klingons used cloak against the Cardassians in this way, or the hit the Feds with massive cloaked attacks in the alternate timeline, show me the money. You can't just say "its possible"... you have to have evidence.

Second the time it takes to get as many ships as you suggest they use would provide time in which enemy intelligence could figure out what you're planning and prepare against it. Don't say "How would they know in the first place?" The Dominion knew about the attack force, and the Feds saw the Order build-up they just mistook it as build-up for an operation against the Maquis.

No evidence, you are just creating a hypothetical scenario.

Third there is no proof a cloaked attack force wouldn't after entering enemy territory, either end up with an enemy fleet sitting on their target, or end up being destroyed before they can get home.

There's no proof that a cloaked force would end up with an enemy fleet not sitting on the target, or end up not being destroyed before they can get home. Absence of proof does not mean proof of absense, you can't just create something out of thin air like this. If you are saying this might be a reason why the Klingons do not use cloak, too bad, the Klingons could just send a large force of several hundred vessels, enough to take over say Earth, and force a Federation surrender. Earth is the Federation. Or attack shipyards and then recloak. Or attack anything and then recloak. This is what you are suggesting the Klingons do with their hyperspace X-Wings are you not?

In fact quite the opposite. Every major attack fleet seen in ST that has gone on a capitol-busting raid has been totally destroyed. It could be that most races aren't willing to lose an entire fleet in an attack not guaranteed to win the war. The Breen attack didn't cause the Feds too much damage, they didn't surrender or collapse, the attack was primarily a moral defeat for the Feds. So it seems to me surprise cloaked attacks are rare because they're difficult to pull off, and usually result in lossses out-weighing gains.

All these cloaked attacks only had a fraction of the firepower the Klingon navy/Tal'Shiar could have used. The Klingons have thousands of ships at their disposal. Okay, lets say a fraction of the X-Wings start using hyperspace like this. 50 X-Wings aren't going to cut it against fortified Earth colonies or fleet concentrations. And when the hell did the Breen use cloak?

I did the Fed-Rom-Klingon Alliance didn't field a massive fleet and go after the Cardassian homeworld until the end, after the War had gone on for 3 years.

Because the Romulans and Klingons and Federation were too busy bickering amongst themselves to attack, and no one of them alone could pull it off. See Klingon war, see when Sisko had to kill the Romulan Senator to get them on their side.

The Ent already shot at the Marauder with phasers, only hit it when it wasn't manuevering and they didn't destroy it just disabled some systems. Also, the Marauder had already been damaged by two Ent crew members yet it was still capable of those mauevers and still escaped.

Yes they don't have countermeasure yet, but I am not talking about this episode, I am talking about tomorrow... er today's episode, where T'Pol will figure out a way to counter the alien vessel. Plus, after two hundred years Federation phaser accuracy is a way to explain the Romulan shift from Warbirds away from these Mauraders, who right now are invincible against Alliance vessels.

Also, while the manuevers look impressive most of it is just rolls and a little bit of side to side and up and down moves no really tight turns or loops. Obi's Jedi fighter in AOTC seems more manueverable than the Marauder in turns and loops and just as manueverable in rolls and up-down side-side moves, yet it was still being hit by Slave I's guns.

Sure, but why waste time maneuvering when you don't have to? The Maurader wasn't in a dogfight, it only dodged what it needed to.

Yet everytime the Feds either have to detect a cloaked ship or come up against better cloaking tech they still find a way to detect the ship.

That's only under extraordinary circumstances. Kruge's cloak was primitive. Chang's cloak left ion trail and no other cloak later has this weakness. Sela was trying to get through a Federation blockade to supply the Duras and therefore could not just go around the puny 40 ship Federation fleet because they were stationary and guarding the planet the Duras and Romulans were going to meet.

The only exception is the Scimitar in Nemesis. Here's a some ways to look for cloaked ships gravitational distortions, subspace distortions, ion trails, heat, power signatures not totally masked by the cloak,

Requiring specialized kit. Are you moving away from your silly "Federation border defenses can stop cloak" now? There's no evidence of cloak leaving subspace distortions, advanced cloak doesn't leave ion trails, gravitational distortions would be minimal if the ship was not in a gravity well, and power signatures can be masked effectively as the Warbird decloaking right in orbit of Vulcan shows, that attack forces can just cloak their way through Federation territory. Most of space is empty you know, once you pass the Federation border you are home free.

just to name a few. Plus in the case of the Roms theres the anomalies created by their quantum singularity power source.

The Federation has never used this to detect Romulan cloak. Reasonable doubt is not enough, you need to show evidence the Federation has detected Romulan cloak through scanning for their anomalies caused by a quantum singularity power source buddy.

Nearly all of these methods would be even more effective against a fleet than a single ship due to the fact that there is simply more there to detect. Also, your example doesn't exactly hold up because the Romulans probably don't worry about cloaked ships coming from Fed territory because the Feds don't have cloaked ships. And they probably don't have cloaked ship detecting sensors on their border with the Feds for the same reason.

My hypothesis that the Romulans overestimated the Federation is far more elegant that your hypothesis that the Federation can defend against cloak because you make huge wild assumptions about Federation sensor capability that we have never seen. Subspace? Has cloak ever been detected by that? Gravametric distortions? Has cloak ever been detected by that? Ion trails? Not since Chang buddy. Power signatures? You have to be practically on top of the enemy for you to detect their power signature.

Plus the Romulan isolation hypothesis is elegant because it fits the canon facts. Kirk deterred them several hundred years back by destroying the cloaked ship making the Romulans think twice about starting another war with the Federation. They build up for a couple hundred years, totally reforming their military and working on their Warbird class vessel and cloaking technology. Picard deters them by responding first at Angel One against no less than seven Klingon D-7's, and then later again by decloaking two K'Vorts alongside showing the Romulans if they invaded there would be hell to pay from the Klingons. And then again by thwarting Sela's plans and the invasion of Vulcan. This is all canon, and your methods of detecting cloak are not or are easily defeated.

However, with hyper you can bypass whole sections of the Federation which you would have to travel through in warp with a cloaked ship, including the well defended border regions.

Do you have any idea how vast space is? Its easy to bypass fortified areas in space even if you didn't have cloak. Without a deep space sensor net, which the Federation does not seem to possess since the Romulan Warbird escorted the "Vulcan" ships straight to Vulcan, there's no way in hell you track them.

Also, hyper allows you to attack the other side of Fed territory, which would take a ship at warp months to do unless you honestly think traveling across 8,000 light years doesn't take months if not years at warp even though Voyager one of the fastest Fed ships around couldn't travel across 70,000 light years in less than decades.

Nobody is disputing the supremacy of hyperspace. What is being disputed is whether Klingons would use cloak in the way you suggest, and whether hyperspace is enough to overcome the firepower and endurance deficiencies.

And most people would agree with me the areas of the Federation months if not years away from the border regions are probably only lightly defended if they have defences at all.

Most people, not all. No maps of the Federation are canon, so there's no way you can assertain how large the Federation is. However, crossing Romulan territory to Romulus takes eight days, so if the Romulans have as much territory as the Federation, that's eight days to cross the Federation. Enterprise-E goes from the Romulan Neutral Zone to Earth in three days. The Federation is a lot smaller than you think.

Yet days of travel means a greater chance of detection or discovery. Which isn't a problem for X-wings.

That is not in dispute.

So you're saying that if Klingons were to develope transwarp before the Feds and Romulans they wouldn't use their speed advantage to hit where their enemy is weak.

Incorrect. The Klingons would attack military important and defended targets, as Klingon honor dictates. They wouldn't attack where the enemy was weak, they would look for the strongest most heavily defended point and attack there. This is shown by the episode where the Klingons try and send four Vor'Chas to the heart of Dominion defenses with a small escort, and only Sisko's grumblings (or Worf's, can't remember) stops the Klingons. As well, the BOP in ST:V going against Ent-A, the BOP in ST:III going against "Federation Battlecruiser" that outguns them 20 to 1. Obviously the Klingons itch for a fight and fight the most heavily defended targets when they can.

O.K. then you're essentially saying that the Klingons are incompetent,

Strawman, they follow a code of honor which dictates rules of engagement. If you call that incompetent, fine. But attacking the heaviest defended facilities is what the Klingons have done all the time, and it has brought them their fearsome reputation in the AQ.

because any enemy even the Borg will use a speed advantage over their enemies.

The Klingons will use it too, just to attack targets worth their time. What's worth their time is military targets, and these military targets may not be as much as a pushover as you suspect. I've already shown Federation colony shielding at 30-100 times a Galaxy, and armed with phasers and possibly photon torpedoes.

Also, you keep arguing that X-wings are so weak and can't do jack, yet you argue they wouldn't use the X-wings speed to attack where they have parity if not superiority in forces because Klingons don't use hit and run tactics.

Strawman. I have never said that "X-Wings can't do jack" or that X-Wings would not use their speed advantage. I have questioned the effectiveness of this speed advantage based on Federation fortifications, and based on the Klingon's choice of targets.

I could argue they don't use hit and run tactics because they don't need to in order to bring their forces to bear against an enemy in a postition of parity or superiority, especially since as you have stated all Klingon Cap ships can cloak. The reason Klingons would use hit and run tactics with X-wings is they aren't stupid and those are the only tactics that would allow the X-wing to be effective.

I can see one thousand X-Wings massed together as an intimidating sight, and a huge fleet staying together to draw out as many Federation infidels as possible as the tactic the Klingons would use. Hit and run is not the only tactic that would allow the X-Wing to be effective, it could be used in support of capital ships. What do you think the Peregrine, a 15 m fighter craft for the Feds, is for?

However that isn't the case with BOPs they don't need to use hit and run tactics to be effective

They would be more effective with hit-and-run, and they rarely if ever use it. Nor do Klingon capital ships or the Klingon navy in general use it. So there must be an explaination if we are not to rely on stupidity. Klingon honor.

What do you mean if they violate Klingon honor. Klingons attack and capture practically unarmed Cardassian Freighters and that isn't against Klingon honor.

Cardassians are not Federation. Bring the quotation out, and lets see the context. Were the Klingons needy for supplies? Were they just trying to draw out Jem'Hadar ships to fight? The Klingon honor thing is not about the Klingons not willing to attack defenseless people, it is about the Klingons preferring to attack difficult targets. The Klingons, with X-Wings that can attack anywhere in the Federation, would rather attack militarily challenging targets.

If Fed colonies are as well defended as you say then it won't be a violation of Klingon honor to attack them with X-wings because the colonies aren't defenceless, and are a threat to the X-wings.

Exactly. Now lets see... 30 - 100 times the shielding of a Galaxy? And the need to close in rather than lob torpedoes from hundreds of thousands of kilometers? The Klingons will lose quite a lot of X-Wings because of the 100% accuracy at 60 m. Bring it down to 70, 80 or 90 percent hit ratio and the distance increases by a shitload.

They wanted to island hop so they could free Cardassia? Why not just go immediately to Cardassia (as you suggest the Feds do to Q'onos) to free it, it would have been quicker. Unless as the Americans they needed to secure a line of retreat, remove enemy bases from which the Japanese could stage attacks from the American rear, and establish bases from which to stage attacks and repair and resupply.

Sure, but only because the Federation was playing it safe. I'm not saying the Federation would not island hop going to Q'onos, I'm saying that once Federation forces start showing up in large numbers in Klingon territory, they will be compelled to defend it. You cannot just give vague generalities like this and expect me to accept that the Klingons would replace their BOP with X-Wings or be more effective. Try taking the minimum distance to a star, use the 150 planet figure, use the 30 times shielding of a galaxy figure, use the 60 m at 100% accuracy figure, and tell me how much the Klingons will lose to attrition before their colony rampage is stopped.

Thanks for making our point. Sun Tzu says make sure your not cut off from supply and take plunder (alternate means of supply) in case you are cut off. Also, American fleets in WWII could carry enough supplies to get from Hawaii to Japan. Yet that doesn't mean they didn't need supply lines, unless you think that it's practical to have warships go back and forth to resupply in an extended campaign or battle. Battles are extremely supply intensive any military unit can travel long distances without requiring much supplies yet after a battle or two if you're not resupplied you begin to lose effectiveness because you expend ordinance and use fuel at a much higher rate due to manuevering, and thus need more.

Fine. But the Federation may not take months, or years to island hop like they did with the Cardassians and Dominion. They had to balance the interests of the Romulans and Klingons, and couldn't destroy the Dominion alone.

Plus, you are missing key details about DS9. The Dominion used phased polaron beams, that penetrated Federation shielding. The Federation could not go on the offensive until Sisko captured the downed Dominion ship and revamped their shield technology. Then the Breen came, and the Breen disruptor weapon mean the Federation had to revamp their shield technology again and allow time for the Klingons to build up their fleet since they were the only ones immune to it. That's why it took as long as it did.

How come X-wings aren't mincemeat in SW battles? Even though SW capital ships can fire faster, are more powerful, and are designed and built knowing there's going to be tiny, manuevering fighters out there attacking them

If you read the main site, fighters are rarely deployed. DW's fanfic shows that Picard never sees fighters deployed against Borg cubes or even Federation, only far later when they are trying to throw everything they can against DS2. Fighters are mincemeat in Wars, and being used in specialized situations like ANH and ROTJ against DS2 does not make them tactically viable against capital ships.

and don't give me any BS about uberwank Fed computer targeting and sensors.

Using Alyeska's 100% accuracy of a 3 meter squared surface at 50 m, and using 13 meter long X-Wing profile in a simple ratio equation to solve for x gives 200 m. Now accounting for error because the X-Wing is not spherical and the X-Wing is long, we get 60 meters at 100% accuracy of an X-Wing sized target.

Uberwank my ass, I have consistently been the only one to provide any numerical quantification at all until Batman showed up with his light-hour ISD firing range which is not X-Wing range. Can you give me numbers for X-Wing accuracy? Don't change the subject by mentioning "but the X-Wings are maneuverable and you're ignoring that" bullshit, I'm not, I'm dealing with one topic at a time and lets see what your numbers are for accuracy. If you don't have numbers, tough luck I'm not doing your homework for you. Maneuverability by the way, is mentioned in the RMH (Romulan Maurader hypothesis) so deal with it there.

Because SW sensors are just as good if not better considering SW has sensors that can detact cloaked ships with superior cloak tech and the Feds as you argue can't. And SW targeting is computer directed or assisted.

SW sensors being some unquantified amount "better" than ST sensors does not convince me that SW fighters are effective against SW capital ships, especially since it is canon fact that starfighters in Wars cannot fight capital ships in Wars. ST targeting is computer directed and assisted as well, what is your point? Give me some numbers man, something to work with, rather than these vague generalities.

Also, SW has Cap ships specifically designed to take out fighters yet X-wings aren't decimated. So I'm not convinced that ST ships will fare much better than SW ships against the X-wing.

SW cap ships are not specifically designed to take out fighters. SW cap ships laugh off fighters. Hundreds of GT worth of shielding, and puny 4 KT guns? Almost three orders of magnitude? Holy shit, those ISD's better watch out! Again quantify, give me something to work with rather than vagueness.

Why not have both BOPs and X-wings. Build half and half. 1500 X-wings/1,500 BOPs. BOPs do what they do best and X-wings do what they do best. Plus X-wings would give the Klingons something to defend against Peregrines allowing Negh'vars, Vor'chas, and BOPs to concentrate on destroying cap ships and not have to worry about Fed fighters attacking their weakly armed rears.

Good idea. X-Wings would be effective working in combined arms like this. However, it does not guarantee the Klingons a victory. Nor that the Klingons would use X-Wings alone to decimate the Federation, which is the vibe I have been getting from the hyperspace argument. Finally some common ground. Although for this part to go any further, we will both have to quantify what we see as Klingon/Federation fleet concentrations, and Klingon/Federation probable defense and attack plans.

Like they did in ST:FC? or during the Dominion War? The Nuetral Zone could be badly patrolled because the Feds have to few ships patrolling too much space. Plus they probably depend on the sensor net to tell them if and where any Roms cross.

Which is stupid, since the Romulans could just bust through at any time with hundreds of Warbirds, or even old Klingon D-7's as the Angel One attack showed. Or even a huge fleet as Sela showed. If the Federation had any sense, they would have fast response fleets located near the neutral zone to intercept any detected cloaked ship. There's no evidence that they do. Picard was only able to cobble together a fleet because he was defending a stationary location from being resupplied by the Romulans, not the entire Federation.

Ha! Like torps are going to hit X-wings yeah right. I thought the Marauder in ENT proved small, manueverable craft aren't threatened by torps.

Torpedoes move at 600 m/s. How fast do X-Wings moving? Well if the Death Star is 160 km in diameter, lets find the circumference.

C = (pi)d
= 5.0e5 m

Now lets be liberal and suppose that for some reason, Luke had to travel the entire circumference of the Death Star. How long does this scene last? 3 minutes? So that's what, 180 seconds? So we get X-Wing speed at 2.8e3 m/s. That's far higher than photon torpedo speed, so I concede this point.

Phasers are a different story though.

Also, without their shields Fed ships are fucked by X-wings. The Klingon cap ships could just pound a Fed ship till its shields go down then let the X-wings knock out the bridge and weapons.

Depends on how X-Wings are used. Klingons regularly use suicide tactics with their BOP. I wouldn't be surprised if they used suicide tactics with their X-Wings frequently, losing X-Wings to attrition when they don't need to. Also assumes that Fed phasers cannot hit X-Wings, an opinion not shared by many including Alyeska. Show your calcs, your numbers man, or you are just spouting vague generalizations.

Also, I doubt a Fed ship could hit a manuevering X-wing without having to fire several shots especially if there are several X-wings attacking it. And that is an improvement over ENT because the Ent couldn't even hit the manuevering Marauder with phasers once, the only time it got hits on the Marauder was when it was flying in pretty much a straight line.

We'll see in today's episode, when the Maurader gets its ass handed.

I did see the Marauder posts, saw the ep in question in fact. Know what? Didn't see the Ent hit the Marauder once while it was doing anything more than flying in a straight line. Even then it hit the Marauder a grand total of two times in the last battle with its phasers and both times the Marauder wasn't manuevering.

We'll see today, when the maurader is destroyed. United is the episode you are talking about right? The one when the NX-01 hits it lowering its holographic illusion by hitting it when it is standing still? Next episode they develop a countermeasure, which is what I have been alluding to all along. We'll see today (or at least I will).

Not really, even Klingons don't generally attack an opponent that has them out-matched if they can help it. That's why Gowron died. He ordered the Klingons to attack superior forces that they couldn't hope defeating. All we're suggesting is that Klingons use the X-wings speed advantage to even the odds or put them in their favor. Even Klingons try to attack so that they have the advantage.

You are wrong. ST:III, ST:V and Gowron himself shows that Klingons repeatedly attack targets that are too much for them. Martok had to overrule his second while he was injured to save Worf and his crew's life while on a BOP because the guy was being foolish and about to attack a Dominion shipyard by himself. Klingons do not always attack wisely, sometimes they attack foolishly but consistent with Klingon honor. Those who are smart get promoted to General and reign in the common grunt's urge to get himself needlessly killed, but not more than that as Klingon warriors in one man X-Wings will have a lot of flexibility on what they attack.

Here's more. By conducting hit and run raids using BOPs and X-wings on the Fed fleet itself. The Klingons can force the Fed fleet to slow down by making them have to defend agains attacks at any time form any direction or even multiple directions. Also, if the Klingons intentionally disable Fed ships, the Klingons force the Feds to either abandon them and allow the Klingons easy kills, slow down to protect the damaged ships until they can be repaired, or pull off ships form the fleet to protect the damaged ones as they make their way back home to be repaired. Either way the Fed fleet isn't going to be getting there in days.

All very good and well. Quantify.

Show me a large cloaked fleet not being detected by the Feds without a Tayon net, or show me cloaked fleets easily bypassing said sensor nets.

You don't seem to get it do you? You want to claim that a large cloaked fleet is easily detected by the Federation, you have to show evidence to support your point. I will support my own point now.

Redemption II wrote: PICARD
We're reading a disruption of the
tachyon net in your area.

DATA'S COM VOICE
Yes, sir. The Romulans have
released a high-energy burst.
The net is no longer effective
in a radius of ten million
kilometers around the Sutherland.

And the day is saved only by Data, who employs unorthodox tactics to save the Federation. Plus, if this had been any real military situation rather than a resupply mission to the Duras in a fixed location, Romulans could have went around the 23 ship tachyon net. In fact, this quotation proves that Federation border sensors are not enough to detect Romulan incursions and they have to rely on a fleet of ships, at least until they retrofit their sensor grid to this kind of technology innovated by Geordi this episode.

Plus Geordi mentions that Federation sensors are as good as Romulan sensors. Klingon BOP goes into orbit of Romulus and stays cloaked for eight days.

Now for your turn. You say that the size of a fleet means that the fleet is more easily detected. Where is your evidence for that? How come Sela's fleet wasn't detected by standard Fed kit, but required a technobabble solution that was easily disabled by technicians working in the space of a single day? How come Picard needed capital ships for the tachyon net and not shuttles, could it be because a tachyon net requires enormous energy consumption?

One colony, you've showed us one colony with such defences. Yet Fed ground bases don't evidence such defences. Neither does practically any TNG colony except for your example and those on or near the Neutral Zone. What about all the Maquis colonies on the Cardassian border they don't have such defences not even before it's demilitarized.

I've also shown that a Federation archaeological outpost has theatre shielding and phaser arrays. How many colonies do you see in Star Trek? Not too many. The Maquis colonies were so backward that they needed to raid for medical supplies from Ent-D. Plus the Maquis colonies were given to Cardassians by Starfleet, so it is logical that Starfleet pulled out all of its defenses and personnel. Betazed was mentioned to have defenses as well. Your "no shielding" hypothesis is equally based on a few colonies which don't have defenses, so I don't see your point. And plus, the Klingons will likely attack militarily defended targets.

Exotic kit like looking for an ion trail which takes no modification of sensors

Cannot be used past TOS movies as cloaking is an arms race. The only other explaination is that the Feds are stupid not to look for ion trail later.

or looking for various anomolies associated with cloaking and again requires no modification to sensors.

Only if they are right on top of you, as ST:III, ST:VI and TNG Rascals shows. These anomalies do not show themselves at long range in deep space. Why would Picard have needed his complicated tachyon net if they did?

All these require is that you be aware and know what they mean, like with hydrophone listeners. So yes it require that you look for these signs, yet if you're on the Neutral Zone you better be looking for this stuff, just like hydrophone operators better be listening for propeller noises in areas where subs are known to commonly operate.

Except the Romulans could have forced their way with 500 warbirds, cloaked their fleet, and devestated the Federation as they did not know where to concentrate their forces. The only hypothesis that makes sense and is consistent with the canon is that Picard scared away the Romulans with his showings against Tomalak and Sela, just like Kirk scared up the Romulans by destroying the cloaked prototype ship.

How do you know 50 ships is enough to destroy Earth in any practical amount of time?

A Romulan fleet is enough to rid all life on the planet. The planetary crust is inconsistent with Romulan Warbird firepower, but the amount of energy required to rid all life on Earth, 1e9 megatons, is consistent with Trek firepower. SirNitram has voiced his opinion on this before.

SirNitram wrote:
brianeyci wrote:Agreed the bombardment tells us nothing other than a small Cardassian/Romulan fleet can pull off destruction of all life on a planet, which from Wong's planet killer page is about 1e9 megatons.

Brian

And which nicely slots into the general figures for around here, high kiloton to low megaton, for normal combat firepower.

Now, why do you object to this? Any numbers at all? Any quantification other than wanting me to waste my time with obvious knowledge?

And what would this have gotten the Klingons except for a pissed off Federation? Would the Feds surrender? Doubtful considering the results of the Breen attack.

The Federation has never faced the destruction of all life on a planet before. If Earth was completely obliterated, the Federation would fall in short order, especially if several key homeworlds were attacked at the same time. Better yet, leave Earth alone and glass Vulcan and a few other planets so the Federation Council is alive to order the surrender order.

Would the Feds seek retalliation? Possibly. Besides the Klingons weren't officially at war with the Feds at this time and were careful not to piss them off too much because they didn't want to fight a two front war. Besides the Fed-Klingon conflict was more of a cold war, though I admit it
did flash hot occasionally.

They never used cloak to its full potential. At the very least, we should have heard of a core planet being taken like the Jem'Hadar took Betazed. Gowron and Martok involved, with Martok pulling the chains and being a changeling, and the Klingons are not officially at war with the Federation? Please.

Destroying someone's capitol is probably the equivalent of nuking it now so I doubt the Klingons wanted their own capitol nuked especially when it probably wouldn't force the surreender of the Feds.

Fine, attack a lot of Federation core worlds and force surrender. Leave Earth alone so they can surrender. Did they do this? No.

Assuming they can storm across. Without running into a fleet.

Get it through your brain, Federation-Neutral Zone border is incredibly lightly defended, not enough to stop a concentrated attack by hundreds of Romulan ships.

Also, it seems to me cloaks are more of a strategic weapon than a tactical one allowing powers to stage attacks without being detected allowing them to gain operational surprise. However Napoleon had operational surprise yet still lost the Battle of Waterloo, and the Japanese had operational surprise yet still lost WWII.

Cloaks are used as strategic weapons, but if the Klingons weren't restrained by honor and the Romulans didn't overestimate the Federation, they could be a tactical powerhouse.

The net does provide early warning though allowing the Feds to get forces into position to defend.

Not enough, since the border is lightly defended. It is so lightly defended that a Romulan Warbird can just sneak through and follow "Vulcan" ships without being detected, and seven D-7's can attack a colony presumably behind the border without having a response for several hours or days, more than long enough for Romulan ships to slip by the hole in the sensor net and go to deep space.

Still have to decloak to attack, and thus open yourself to attack.

Sure, but Martok and Gowron could have decloaked right in front of DS9. DS9 did not have its shields up or its weapons ready. And ST:V proves that a cloaked ship can get the drop on an uncloaked one. The Klingons rarely use this advantage. ST:V Klingons cloaked inside Ent sensor range, but TNG era cloaks can cloak for eight days at least as evidenced by Picard's trip to Romulus.

Not neccesarily because if the attack is going badly X-wings can hyper away to safety. If BOPs try that the Feds will probably track their ion trail and kill them with torps.

Martok and Worf escaped from the Dominion with cloak when Martok overruled his second. And, if the battle is going badly, true the X-Wings can hyper away, but how badly is bad? Without capital ships to station your men on, whoever is in command will be very vulnerable and easily killed when the Feds detect communications it. Unless, the Klingons use the X-Wings as I have suggested and form up around capital ships. Which don't have hyper.

No it isn't unless you're going to argue Klingons wouldn't use the speed advantage of Transwarp.

I haven't said that the Klingons wouldn't use hyperspace, just that they wouldn't use it in the way you and others have been suggesting. Running away when ordered? Yes. Running away before the Fed gets a chance to fight back? No. Attacking targets of opportunity? Yes. Working without capital ship escort in large numbers? Probably not. Scouting? Yes. Attacking soft targets? No.

Also, every class of military vehicle gets faster and faster in RL not so they can perform hit and run, but so they can hit where the other guy won't expect it. Ala the Persian Gulf War. If you honestly expect us to think the Klingons wouldn't take advantage of an obvious advantage than you're saying the Klingons is stooopid.

The Klingons would take advantage of it, but not in the way you and others have suggested. They would do with hyperspace what they do with their cloak advantage -- scout, conduct raids to draw out enemy forces, retreat when necessary. And of course the X-Wings would be escorting capital ships which would carry the meat of any Klingon ground force which the Klingons love.

Brian