Trekkie told me ST will win SW because of time travel?!?

[Darth Wong]

So what happens if there is a specific explaination in a sci-fi series that says that time travel is not multiverse travel, but actual change to the timeline? How do you treat the idea then? As totally illogical? How is it possible to suspend disbelief on an illogical premise?

As any such explanation would probably be an individual character's interpretation, you would simply say he's wrong. Do you think it's a violation of suspension of disbelief to think that Gorman in "Aliens" was wrong for telling his men to proceed into a hostile situation without loaded weapons?

I'm tired of people who seem to think that suspension of disbelief means "no onscreen character can be wrong".

[Alyeska]

brianeyci, you need to learn when to fold.

[Patrick Degan]

You know, as an OT aside, I don't recall a single script for Doctor Who ever generating the sort of idiocies which seem to have become common to Star Trek's conception of time travel —and Doctor Who is a series built around the central concept of a time traveler and his machine!

I only saw about a season or so of Tom Baker Dr. Who, but from what I observed, whatever Dr. Who did simply became part of the timeline. For example, his name-dropping bit about tossing an apple at Isaac Newton and then having a lengthy discussion with on physics.

The beauty of that approach is that the question of whether you have one timeline or many is simply never addressed, nor does it have to be. At no point do you need stupidity like "temporal shielding".

Oh, they've shown that parallel worlds do exist in a couple of episodes, but only for the purposes of the story at hand. In one, "The Pyramids Of Mars", the alternate-world concept was used to brutal effect when the Doctor decided to show Sarah (his companion at the time) the sort of place Earth would be in her time if a hideously powerful being was allowed to escape from its imprisonment in 1911. The TARDIS landed on an Earth which was nothing but a bleak, devestated world devoid of life —"Nineteen Eighty, Sarah, if you want to get off." After that little moment of horror, the Ship returned to 1911 and the story proceeded as before. No script afterward even bothered to refer back to this incident because no subsequent story had anything to do with "Pyramids Of Mars".

[mr friendly guy]

On a side note Doctor Who in the expanded canon ie novels / audios did have their own equivalent of a "temporal shield". They simply had the Time Lords home planet to be "outside the universe", so any thing that would change time, would have no effect on it, but the Time Lords could still observe in the universe.

And before someone asks whats to stop someone travelling back in time before the Time Lords put their planet outside the universe, they apparently have technology to block time travel to certain periods of their world which they don't want you to, which I guess can also in a sense be considered a "temporal shield".

[Patrick Degan]

On a side note Doctor Who in the expanded canon ie novels / audios did have their own equivalent of a "temporal shield". They simply had the Time Lords home planet to be "outside the universe", so any thing that would change time, would have no effect on it, but the Time Lords could still observe in the universe.

And before someone asks whats to stop someone travelling back in time before the Time Lords put their planet outside the universe, they apparently have technology to block time travel to certain periods of their world which they don't want you to, which I guess can also in a sense be considered a "temporal shield".

Yes but all that was never in the TV series proper. Whatever else can be said, at least the scriptwriters for Doctor Who handled time travel sensibly: as nothing more than a means to get the Doctor and co. to whichever adventure was ahead for them. They never had people running around changing time willy-nilly or based entire plotlines on the sort of idiocies which have polluted the entire concept of time travel in Star Trek and which are fueling the nonsensical arguments by the fanboyz about the Federation erasing the Empire from existence.

[SirNitram]

It's annoying when one sees time travel done well in such simplistic arenas, yet sodomized in a cultural icon. Even Chrono Trigger handled it very well, with the most iffy part being a character vanishing when the chances of her existance were dropping towards zero, and of course the characters remembering what they had changed.

[Junghalli]

You honestly don't understand that if something happened 20 years ago, it has already had 20 years to propagate to the present?

Actually, there's a theory out in which this might kind of make sense.
Let's for instance take the timeline where the Borg destroyed Cochrane's ship in the launch pad, thus altering human history in such a way as to allow them to be assimilated more easily.
At the moment the launch pad was blown up the effects of that began to propogate forward at the normal speed of time. So effectively there was a change in the timeline. However, since the change moves at the normal speed of time it would be meaningless to someone living in the future, because the change in timelines would always be a fixed amount of time "behind" his present. Better yet, when the Borg assimilate Earth timeline reached the day the Borg sent their sphere back in time this would obviously not happen, resulting in the generation of a third timeline in which things happened the exact same way as the first timeline. This continues on and on in an infinity of cosmic cycles. So in this model the history of Earth past Cochrane's warp flight would be divided into alternating "waves" of casualty, one in which the Borg assimilate Earth and one in which they don't, and one wave can never catch up with the one in front.

[Keevan_Colton]

You mean, dun-dun-dun...a many worlds style interpretation!

[brianeyci]

The big problem with the multiverse theory is that even if you travel back in time, you are changing the timeline somehow. Your mere presence would change something somehow. No matter how insignificant, if something were changed, a multiverse would have to be created.

So we get an infinite number of multiverses.

Brian

[SirNitram]

The big problem with the multiverse theory is that even if you travel back in time, you are changing the timeline somehow. Your mere presence would change something somehow. No matter how insignificant, if something were changed, a multiverse would have to be created.

So we get an infinite number of multiverses.

Brian

No, just one for every peice of time travel.

Of course, the true interpretation of Many Worlds says, yes, there are an infinite number. One for every potential outcome, ever.

[Locutus_8472]

In Enterprise, they went to the 31th century. Still, even then the Fed ships would be used as toilet paper and house insulation.

I think not! I am a shameless Trekkie, however even I think the time travel card should not be played the manner it is.

About the "research colony in the past":
What if by the allmighty Plot Device Picard was able to steal a cloaking device and board an Imperial Star Destroyer, take it back 1,000 years and set up a research station that remained in "temporal confinement" or some other technobabble until 1 week after the traveler went back. Paradox would be neatly avoided. Or, even better (from my point of veiw) give the SD to the Borg Collective to assimilat, Borg+1,000 Years+SD might give ST universe a chance.

No need to flame me for letting Picard capture an SD, he does have transporters and I did say a Plot Device was used. Either that or an act of Q.

[brianeyci]

Why would Picard agree to give anything to the Borg?

Since phasing cloak is illegal, and so is cloak in the Federation (except the one on the Defiant which was loaned by Romulan government), where would Picard obtain the cloak other than tear it out of the Defiant?

How does Picard beam through shields?

How does Picard manage to take over an entire SD, with his unarmored redshirts?

Why would Q stop the Empire or fight the Empire? He likes humans, and believes in conflicts like Borg "advancing humanity". As well, Q's escapades have been nerfed by the Q collective -- he can no longer act as he did or he'll get his powers stripped.

You are basically using "good guys always win" with your plot device idea. Good guys do not always win, or there would be no point debating at all.

Brian

[SirNitram]

Again people just don't seem to get it. You're using information that was never researched, objects that were never made, by people who were never born. Is this somehow too difficult for Trekkies?

[Locutus_8472]

Picard gave stuff to the Borg b/c he figured that the Empire and the Super-Borg would wipe each other out. The allmighty Plot device is what gave Picard a shield-less SD to capture.

Could Borg+1,000 years+SD to assimilate defeat the might of the Empire?

I gave Picard a phase cloak cause at this point he does not give a crap about laws, just avoiding total destruction of the Federation.

[Junghalli]

Could Borg+1,000 years+SD to assimilate defeat the might of the Empire?

That depends on how long it would take for the Borg to analyze, assimilate, and replicate all the technology on the ISD and then put ISD-power cubes into mass production. In a thousand years? Offhand I'd say they should be able to do it, but we can't be certain.
But even if it works I fail to see how this would leave the Federation better off. By the time the Empire shows up the Borg with Wars wank power generation will have assimilated the entire galaxy. I'd much rather live in the Empire if it came to that, at least with them I don't get turned into an extension of the hive mind's will.

[Lone_Prodigy]

Could Borg+1,000 years+SD to assimilate defeat the might of the Empire?

That depends on how long it would take for the Borg to analyze, assimilate, and replicate all the technology on the ISD and then put ISD-power cubes into mass production. In a thousand years? Offhand I'd say they should be able to do it, but we can't be certain.
But even if it works I fail to see how this would leave the Federation better off. By the time the Empire shows up the Borg with Wars wank power generation will have assimilated the entire galaxy. I'd much rather live in the Empire if it came to that, at least with them I don't get turned into an extension of the hive mind's will.

Even if they did by an act of The Force manage to pull off this ungodly task, their god-awful tactics would still mean that they lose.

[Darth Wong]

The big problem with the multiverse theory is that even if you travel back in time, you are changing the timeline somehow. Your mere presence would change something somehow. No matter how insignificant, if something were changed, a multiverse would have to be created.

So we get an infinite number of multiverses.

Well duh, that pretty much follows from the fact that we saw hundreds of thousands of parallel timelines intersecting in "Parallels". And that's just the parallel timelines where there happens to be a ship named "Enterprise" which just happens to be at that place at that moment!

[Ghost Rider]

Could Borg+1,000 years+SD to assimilate defeat the might of the Empire?

That depends on how long it would take for the Borg to analyze, assimilate, and replicate all the technology on the ISD and then put ISD-power cubes into mass production. In a thousand years? Offhand I'd say they should be able to do it, but we can't be certain.
But even if it works I fail to see how this would leave the Federation better off. By the time the Empire shows up the Borg with Wars wank power generation will have assimilated the entire galaxy. I'd much rather live in the Empire if it came to that, at least with them I don't get turned into an extension of the hive mind's will.

The smae beings who couldn't make nanites to defeat a race that they were getting slaughtered by.

Yep, they'll assimilate and understand power genetration orders of magintude greater then anything they've ever seen.

[Junghalli]

Yep, they'll assimilate and understand power genetration orders of magintude greater then anything they've ever seen.

They have a thousand years.
Besides, it's what they do best. The Borg are uncreative because they're the intellectual equivalent of Vikings. Instead of doing the work of researching and inventing themselves they prefer to simply take the technologies and ideas of other races. On that score Scorpion fits their pattern quite well.

[Stark]

Describing why they're uncreative doesn't make them less so.

[Ghost Rider]

Yep, they'll assimilate and understand power genetration orders of magintude greater then anything they've ever seen.

They have a thousand years.
Besides, it's what they do best. The Borg are uncreative because they're the intellectual equivalent of Vikings. Instead of doing the work of researching and inventing themselves they prefer to simply take the technologies and ideas of other races. On that score Scorpion fits their pattern quite well.

BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Spoken like a true idiot with zilch knowledge of engineering and how little a thousand years matters with technology that they have no BASIS to start with.

And you still avoided the FACT that Voyager came up with a solution they couldn't under a pretense of EXTINCTION.

[Nick Lancaster]

The social/political elements which gave rise to the Empire are beyond the scope of Picard and his crew to derail or significantly alter. Where do you start? The Hyperspace War? The Battle of Rusaan? Darth Bane's revelations on Onderon?

For example, if you take 9/11 and make it 'not happen,' have you really changed anything? Consider that the mindset of the terrorists and the political will to engage in their actions still exists - you've only edited out the expression of same.

Consequently, talk of an intrepid starship crew traveling back in time to make the Empire 'not' happen is horseshit. You're caught in a game of first causes, which is a losing proposition.

====

Brian:

As for the whole 'time for a given change to propagate through the timeline to the point of the original observer's departure' nonsense, if you're viewing time in a fluid/wave model:

Event A happens. This causes 'ripples of cause and effect' that eventually manifest in some kind of payoff in the future, the simplest example being the Grandfather Paradox. Your presence here and now is dependent on what was done generations ago. That is, Grandaddy's sperm met Grandma's ova, plink ... and the ripples spread out to your current time.

With me so far? Good.

Now, posit that Event A happens. A time traveler then imposes Event B upon the propagating waves - think of dropping a second pebble into the medium - those new waves now interact with the ones racing across the medium to your present location. Depending on the position or relevance of the second event, the waves from the original event may never actually reach you, having been cancelled out or altered.

So your 'observer' is waiting for a sign that may never happen. Let's say you sent the traveler to kill your grandfather; assuming success, why would the payoff - your ceasing to exist - take longer if Grandad was killed on Tuesday as opposed to Friday? You are already committed to a multiverse view, with the first two iterations being one where you exist, and one where you don't. (Then there's the one where Grandad got killed, but Grandma re-married and now all you have is a different Grandfather.)

You're making the assumption that history exists as some kind of particle medium that responds in the same manner as an actual fluid (hence giving birth to the Voyager Timecop idiocy as something you can be 'shielded' from), as opposed to 'fluid' being a description of its malleable nature.

Even the Guardian of Forever model had instant payoffs - McCoy jumps through the Guardian, Uhura loses contact with the Enterprise. Edith Keeler dies, and everyone returns within seconds of each other, with Scotty noting, 'You only just left.'

And remember the old adage about stepping in the same river twice. It's impossible, because it's never the same river, and you're never the same person.

[YT300000]

This would suggest that they are already approaching tech stagnation by the time of TNG. But they have by no means reached it. This is more like comparing a 1950s car to a modern Corvette. It's much closer in general design than the steam locomotive. A lot of paradigms from the older car would still apply, even some maintenance requirements.

And with proper manuals and one-on-one tutoring, an expert on the 1950 Corvette could become an expert on the 2000 'vette within a reasonable amount of time. In a similar way, the Feddies could disseminate this knowledge, etc, and eventually have a large pool of researchers. And if the tech gap is too big, they can just go back 50 years. And just do this 4 times as often as was planned.

Of course, this hinges on the learned knowledge staying in that time period, the trick actually working, and the vast number of paradoxes generated not imploding the universe.

[Junghalli]

Describing why they're uncreative doesn't make them less so.

True, but it does tell us that reverse-engineering the technology of alien civilizations is right up their alley.

Spoken like a true idiot with zilch knowledge of engineering and how little a thousand years matters with technology that they have no BASIS to start with.

Alright, how long do you think it would take them?

And you still avoided the FACT that Voyager came up with a solution they couldn't under a pretense of EXTINCTION.

Actually, that fit perfectly with their known motus operandi. They don't invent: they sit back and let other species do the work for them, and then they assimilate any interesting results.

[Stark]

Oh my god.

Their strategy is to assimilate, thus they can assimilate... anything? For fuck, my strategy is to fuck a lot of 17-22 year old women. Does that mean I never fail? Does it mean none are beyond me? Does it mean I can do it when I CAN'T SPEAK THE LANGUAGE?

Its even on the main site - the 'superhero mentality', where because its someone's schtick, they can always do it because.. well... because thats what they DO. Its a retarded no limits fallacy. Remember Data, the shit-we-can't-assimilate-him guy?