Federation/Empire fleet battle: Not smooth Imp sailing?

[TheDarkling]

Howedar: Why?

[Howedar]

Because there is no way in hell that such a weapon could do so much damage. Hell, you detonate a 100MT weapon 500 miles or whatever from me and I'll gladly hang out in a foil-coated space suit.

[TheDarkling]

So you are basically saying its impossible because you say so, going against evidence to contary.

The weapon obviously had a very high yield to do what it did - your denial of the evidence does not change that evidence.

[BioDroid]

Why do certain people just assume that the technology of one universe is immediately equal to the other without considering the evidence first?

I am ofcourse referring to "Cloaking Devices." Yes, there are devices in both universes called cloaking devices, however, the effects of such devices are similar in basica appearances, however once a closer look at the effects shows considerable differences between the two.

ST Cloaking devices used by the Romulans, Klingons etal are advanced enough that they hide a ship visually and from sensors of Federation ships while allowing the claoked ship (in the TOS movies and later) to have an undistorted visual and at least some sensor capability (The Bird of Prey in ST III was able to get accurate ranging and shield status information on the Enterprise and Grisom.) If we're to assume that these sensors are passive (Neither Federation ship detected any active scans on them) then we assume that the cloaking device is not completely impervious to scanner energy, and doesn't need to be in order to fool Federation sensors. However the power drain required of these shields (with rare exceptions) was such that it required the vessel to decloak in order to fire it's weapons.

SW cloaking devices (per the description given in both Timothy Zhan series) do not allow any type of sensor information to travel into or out of the area of effect. While this hid the ship completetly from the enemy vessel, it also completetly blacked out the cloaked vessels own sensors, not even giving the cloaked vessel a visual of the outside the area of effect. However, weapons (while not being able to target anything) could be fired with impunity (and giving away the ships location.)

If the technologies are com,pared at that level, the assumption (that I reach) are as follows. The SW cloaks need to block everything that they do, because that is what's required to completetly hide a ship both visually and from sensors. A ST cloak while being effective enough to hide a ship from a SW ships "visual scanners" probably wouldn't cut the mustard when it came to disappearing from an ISD's sensors.

That's just my two cents.

[Shadow]

This discussion was mentioned in the DarkStar poll, so I shall now respond.

"They could see, so they were interacting with light. Therefore they should have been visible. Explain this, and then I'll listen to everything else."

I am not required to play public relations games, nor to give a complete explanation on the workings of a completely unrealistic technology. I simply note that it shows the following weaknesses.

It ammounts to that there were very few effects distinguishing a normal object from Geordi and Ro Laren. They cannot be seen as they interact with light, obviously, which is not possible. Why does this mean that their capability of breathing air will make them vulnerable to nerve gas? They walk through walls and people, yet they can't fall through the floor.

"That has nothing to do with this."

The question was about the phase cloak interacting adversely with shields or dense materials. I simply noted that it would be a non-issue anyway, since the ships' gravity generators would do freaky shit to each other.

And, anyway, apparently there was some interaction between matter as well. They could feel it as their hands passed through. This stuff would probably be unhealthy to critical systems like computers and power transfer lines.

The Romulan fell through a wall on the side of the ship. SIF fields use similiar effects apparently. Do you have proof gravity effects phase cloaks?

"They could make more if they had a desire to."

I love this kind of wild speculation. How do you even know the project survived? It was black ops, and might as well be completely lost.

The Enterprise had a phase cloak.

"Why didn't he say it was similiar to a phase cloak? He talks about Klingon cloaks, so why not the Federation's?"

1. The words described a cloak that phased a ship. Ergo, a phase cloak.
2. The Federation has no regular cloaks. WHat you're trying to say here I can't imagine.

I'll concede this point.

"Yes, and phase cloaked ships are vulnerabgle to being seen."

Are they? Well, thanks. If that's true - not that it's likely to be, since there is no evidence - it just makes phase cloaks yet worse for combat purposes.

"Add floors to the vulnerable list."

I can't imagine what point you're trying to make here.

Repeated.
It ammounts to that there were very few effects distinguishing a normal object from Geordi and Ro Laren. They cannot be seen as they interact with light, obviously, which is not possible. Why does this mean that their capability of breathing air will make them vulnerable to nerve gas? They walk through walls and people, yet they can't fall through the floor.

"No, it was a strange effect that the transporter induced on the transporter beam."

Proof that counters the entire point of the story?

There was no cloak to sustain their cloaking effect. All other cloaks require this.

[Isolder74]

i thought this thread was dead

[TheDarkling]

No Igor it is Undead, mwhahahahahaha cue organ music and thunder clap.

[Isolder74]

No Igor it is Undead, mwhahahahahaha cue organ music and thunder clap.

Dinuananuninuna

Bach's Taccato and Fugue in D-minor

Crack Zap~~~~~opps electric orgon got fried by EMP

[Cpt_Frank]

That thread was dead for almost 2 months!

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

This thread was created when these forums were only a few days old!

[Mr Bean]

Yes... It.. It was when I still had less than 500 posts! When David and GAT both had more posts than me

[Eleas]

This discussion was mentioned in the DarkStar poll, so I shall now respond.

...respond in an out-of-the-way thread I only chanced upon by luck. One could not be faulted for assuming you just wanted to claim an easy victory.

It ammounts to that there were very few effects distinguishing a normal object from Geordi and Ro Laren. They cannot be seen as they interact with light, obviously, which is not possible. Why does this mean that their capability of breathing air will make them vulnerable to nerve gas? They walk through walls and people, yet they can't fall through the floor.

This is completely nonsensical, Shadow. You should have let sleeping dogs lie.

Ro and LaForge are humans; they breathe un-phase-cloaked air. This process involves absorption of gas. Nerve gas agents work on the exact same principles. It is therefore obvious to anyone besides you that said gas would work on phase-cloaked entities.

The question was about the phase cloak interacting adversely with shields or dense materials. I simply noted that it would be a non-issue anyway, since the ships' gravity generators would do freaky shit to each other.

The Romulan fell through a wall on the side of the ship. SIF fields use similiar effects apparently. Do you have proof gravity effects phase cloaks?

No, but I do have canon proof gravity affects whatever is cloaked by a phase cloak. Next, please.

The Enterprise had a phase cloak.

Prove it, oh master of wildly unsupported claims.

I'll concede this point.

Thank you.

Repeated.
It ammounts to that there were very few effects distinguishing a normal object from Geordi and Ro Laren. They cannot be seen as they interact with light, obviously, which is not possible. Why does this mean that their capability of breathing air will make them vulnerable to nerve gas? They walk through walls and people, yet they can't fall through the floor.

But they obviously interact with air, not to mention feel it when they pass through objects, which means there is some sort of interaction! Jesus Christ, I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.

There was no cloak to sustain their cloaking effect. All other cloaks require this.

I can easily explain this to mean that the Romulan cloaking effect was simply more effective. Since phase cloaks are wholly different in nature from regular cloaks (one is a visual distortion, while the other alters the target properties) you cannot make any parallels between them.

[Vendetta]

The Enterprise had a phase cloak.

Prove it, oh master of wildly unsupported claims.

It had one for all of about ten minutes in Pegasus. The technology then mysteriously disappeared, never to be heard from again.

(Or, if you wanted a wildly unsupported claim, reappeared in the Transphasic Torpeodes in Endgame)

[TheDarkling]

Is this debate about the differences between the Phase cloak and the phase transporter accident.

If so as has already been pointed out a cloak needs something to maintain it, Ro didnt have this.

What use is a phase cloak if it results in a viewable (to scanners) trace (just imagine all the power systems and the warp core interacting with matter as they pass through it).

Its clear that they arent exactly the same however the question of what we can infer from one about the other is still open to debate.

[seanrobertson]

Acording to Mr.Wong a Federation Photon Torpeode from TNG has an effective maximun yield of 64 megatons,a quantum torpedo has a yield of 128 megatons .However this energy is vented in all directions so you need to halve the number.As was seen in ROTJ Star Destroyers were taking puondings from weapons simmular to there own for at least 20 minutes before shied failure and hulls exploding,I remeber seeing at leat one star destroyer blow up.The Federation cant match those firepower figures .

You're in Lenoir? Cool. I'm right outside of Charlotte.

I agree that, while the tactic is interesting, torpedos lack the yield
to get the job done, whatever figures you use to determine pho/quantorp output.

However, I am not convinced that a Star Destroyer could take 20 minutes
of near continuous bombardment from the *heavy weapons* of
comparably-armed vessels (and, to be fair, Mon Calamari ships
do *not* mount as many guns as an ISD).

Yes, I do realize that the novelization describes exchanges of
long-range fire; and that, since the battle did technically begin
at "range," the whole affair lasted about half an hour or so.

BUT...I definitely do NOT think the long-range fire was particularly
intense. We see explosions around both fleets from the Emperor's
throne room window, but the novelization also describes how the
fighters were engaging the enemy capital ships (a large nuclear
device actually detonating outside Ackbar's command center).
Some of the fire was turbolaser fire, from what I can gather--one
Rebel ship was destroyed by something like "furious long-range
fire"--but we don't know how MUCH.

Also, when Ackbar and Calrissian discuss moving in on the ISD fleet,
Ackbar shouts, "At that close range, we won't last long against those
Star Destroyers!"

? Huh? At THAT close range, they'd be so tight with the Imps that
that'd face part of a broadside's firepower at MOST; BUT when both
fleets were several dozen kilometers apart, they'd all have ideal
firing ranges for ALL guns.

Therefore, the exchange of fire must have been substantially less
than maximal until the Rebels were "at that close range" as Ackbar
said. Otherwise, he would've said, "Good idea. We'll only face
maybe a third of their guns when we're right next to them, as
opposed to all the guns we're facing now."

The rate at which HTLs were fired as also hard to tell. To simply assume
they battered each other's shields with all guns for minutes on end
might not be representative of what really happened. It's probably very much necessary, IMO, for the following reasons:

If the Acclamator's peak shield output is any indication, the
ISD's shields should also be about a quarter of its reactor's maximum;
i.e., 2.5E24W (probably more). Peak capacity is just that: it
can't be maintained indefinitely, but it can spike up to deflect huge
bombardments; further, if the energy hitting the shield doesn't
surpass the peak shield rate, it does nothing to diminish the shield's
defensive protection (as I understand it...could be wrong).

This would require a lot of heavy TL blasts to hit a ship simultaneously,
but it wouldn't necessarily require a near half-hour battle. If say three
ships focused on a shield vector of one ISD, they each had
ten heavy barrels locked on and could fire 5 teratons/shot,
that could be a coordinated attack of 150 teratons, a potential maximum of 9E24W (1/15th/sec. bolt duration on shields). That'd be
enough to get through the shield and slam into the hull, doing significant
damage.

That kind of coordinated attack is probably pretty fanciful, and 5 TT/shot
for the Rebels' heavy guns might be a slight stretch; I don't doubt
the Impstars might carry guns of such magnitude, but it's still purely
speculative. (Besides, I'm just spitballing.) Still, it shows you that it's indeed *possible* to take one ship out of combat in a matter of seconds, not minutes or hours. It certainly wouldn't be easy, mostly because
the Imperials aren't sitting still and happen to be shooting BACK at
you

[Shadow]

This is completely nonsensical, Shadow. You should have let sleeping dogs lie.

Ro and LaForge are humans; they breathe un-phase-cloaked air. This process involves absorption of gas. Nerve gas agents work on the exact same principles. It is therefore obvious to anyone besides you that said gas would work on phase-cloaked entities.

If they they are capable of physcial interaction with air, why do they pass through other objects? They had no difficulty with this before they came into contact with anyon emmisions.
[qoute]No, but I do have canon proof gravity affects whatever is cloaked by a phase cloak. Next, please.[/quote]
Where is it? The SIF field uses gravity, but they can pass through it.

Prove it, oh master of wildly unsupported claims.

I did on page page two. You respond with "I stand corrected. So the Federation has one (1) phase cloak, and the project shut down." You ignore that they can produce more. They can surely build more from that model. You also have no evidence they do not still have the design.

But they obviously interact with air, not to mention feel it when they pass through objects, which means there is some sort of interaction! Jesus Christ, I can't believe you need this spelled out for you.

Repeated: "If they they are capable of physcial interaction with air, why do they pass through other objects? They had no difficulty with this before they came into contact with anyon emmisions."

I can easily explain this to mean that the Romulan cloaking effect was simply more effective. Since phase cloaks are wholly different in nature from regular cloaks (one is a visual distortion, while the other alters the target properties) you cannot make any parallels between them.

The cloaking device was not working properly, so who is to say this is the normal effects a pase cloak has?

[Eleas]

If they they are capable of physcial interaction with air, why do they pass through other objects? They had no difficulty with this before they came into contact with anyon emmisions.

The burden of proof is not on me, Shadow. The evidence clearly tells us that chemical reactions (breathing) are possible between the phase barrier. There is no reason why nerve gas wouldn't work the same way. Don't you get this by now? Two phase-cloaked humanoids interacted with the un-cloaked atmosphere of the E-D. There is nothing to suggest this interaction is selective.

Where is it? The SIF field uses gravity, but they can pass through it.

SIF have never been stated to use gravity.

I did on page page two. You respond with "I stand corrected. So the Federation has one (1) phase cloak, and the project shut down."

That's right, I remember that now.

You ignore that they can produce more.

There's nothing to suggest they can do that. They're just as likely to destroy the model in the process.

They can surely build more from that model.

Proof other than your word for it, please.

You also have no evidence they do not still have the design.

Yes, I fucking do. The Borg. The Dominion. The <insert anything>. Against them, the Phase Cloak was not used. So, what does this tell us? It tells us that either Starfleet doesn't have the plans, or would refuse to use them even if it meant the complete military defeat of the Federation.

Repeated: "If they they are capable of physcial interaction with air, why do they pass through other objects? They had no difficulty with this before they came into contact with anyon emmisions."

Refuted: The burden of proof is not on me, Shadow. The evidence clearly tells us that chemical reactions (breathing) are possible between the phase barrier. There is no reason why nerve gas wouldn't work the same way. Don't you get this by now? Two phase-cloaked humanoids interacted with the un-cloaked atmosphere of the E-D. There is nothing to suggest this interaction to be selective.

The cloaking device was not working properly, so who is to say this is the normal effects a pase cloak has?

You are the one who asserts that the cloaking device wasn't working properly. And as usual, you provide zero evidence to support that position, you harp on on an alternative theory despite the fact that it doesn't explain things while mine does. So in all stillness I must inquire of you: are you fucking retarded?

[Vendetta]

There is nothing to suggest this interaction is selective.

Other than the fact that they walked through the walls. If the process is working for one substance (whatever the bulkheads are made of), but not another, (oxygen) it MUST be selective. They interact with one, and fail to interact with the other, something about the different properties of the materials is the most likely cause, but without knowing what it is, you can't say whether nerve gas will or won't work.

[Shadow]

The burden of proof is not on me, Shadow. The evidence clearly tells us that chemical reactions (breathing) are possible between the phase barrier. There is no reason why nerve gas wouldn't work the same way. Don't you get this by now? Two phase-cloaked humanoids interacted with the un-cloaked atmosphere of the E-D. There is nothing to suggest this interaction is selective.

There could be air in the place they were phased, or yhe process was selective with certain materials. They also dont ineract with the floors. For some strange reason these may be made of different materials. the gravity explanation doesn't fit.

SIF have never been stated to use gravity.

They work similiar to shields, which use gravity. They can also be applied through tractor beams, which use gravity. Although the TM is not usually considered, it states they use gravity as well.

There's nothing to suggest they can do that. They're just as likely to destroy the model in the process.

They produced it before. However this was done will still work.

Yes, I fucking do. The Borg. The Dominion. The <insert anything>. Against them, the Phase Cloak was not used. So, what does this tell us? It tells us that either Starfleet doesn't have the plans, or would refuse to use them even if it meant the complete military defeat of the Federation.

They still had a chance to win without help of the phase cloak. Anyhow, I don't care how they would use against any threat, but simply that they could.

[You are the one who asserts that the cloaking device wasn't working properly. And as usual, you provide zero evidence to support that position, you harp on on an alternative theory despite the fact that it doesn't explain things while mine does. So in all stillness I must inquire of you: are you fucking retarded?

No, I did not. The interphase generator failed in the episode. The entire reason they were phase was caused by this. Did you ever watch the episode? Further, you base all your assumptions about the pahse cloak on a Romulan device.

[SirNitram]

ST shields do not use gravity. If they did, a shielded ship would be completely invisible, and mass as much as a black hole. Weapons fire would curve around it, not impact on shields like shots fired at a wall.

Ridiculous nonsense...

[Shadow]

ST shields do not use gravity. If they did, a shielded ship would be completely invisible, and mass as much as a black hole. Weapons fire would curve around it, not impact on shields like shots fired at a wall.

Ridiculous nonsense...

The shield screen in Engineering measures graviton output. There's a link to a picture on DarkStar's page on Borg personal shields.

[seanrobertson]

Btw, what makes you think one can 'adapt' to SW weapons?
You can only adapt to a weapon if it uses a special characteristic to inflict damage. SW weapons use raw power. You can'T adapt to raw power.
All of SW's technology is designed the way that nothing else will decide the effectiveness of a weapon but raw power.

I don't wholly agree here for a no. of reasons.

First, let me state that I'm far from someone who believes that
Borg "adaptation" is the end-all-be-all, especially when we're talking
about the Borg going up against someone with Imperial levels
of firepower.

BUT...

A phaser's funky interactions with a target aren't what make it
something the Borg would consider "adaptable."

More importantly, you're are setting up a false dilemma WRT "adaption" as the word is associated with Borg technology. Frequency adaptation is,
indeed, the most common way in which the Borg lessen
a weapon's effects (though not completely, of course; e.g., "First
Contact's" cube).

There are other ways the Borg "adapt," though. In "Dark Frontier,"
when facing Species 10026, the Borg encountered a modulating
phaser pulse that almost completely bypassed the Queen's ship
and cubes' shielding.

Did they alter frequencies to match the weapons? No. Instead, they
reconfigured their shields to absorb the blasts instead of trying to
"deflect" them (or whatever Borg shields ordinarily do). After doing
so, the Queen said, emphasis mine:

"Adapation complete. They are no longer a threat."

Also, simply because a weapon uses raw power to slam through shields,
hulls, etc. does not mean Borg cannot optimize their defenses against it--keeping in mind of course that adaptation isn't simply matching frequencies. Remember the deflector discharge in "BoBW"? The cube obviously survived that with ease, and it was not only a "raw power" weapon, but it was also tuned toward an apparent weakness in Borg shields; i.e., the upper-EM band frequencies.

I should also point out that, from what we learn in the Ep. 2 _ICS_, turbolasers do at least SOME of their damage in a laser-like fashion.
Lasers have frequencies. Ergo, the Borg could try to match their shield
frequencies to lessen the effects of this component of a turbolaser.

Please note: I am NOT saying this would be effective to any determinable degree...you do, after all, have to SURVIVE turbolaser hits to make use of such information (Light TLs? No problem. Heavy guns? One or two hits should do the thing in regardless of any adaptations.) I am only saying it is a possibility given what Curtis has said about the way turbolasers work. There is surely an upper-limit to the amount of energy a cube's shield grid could ward off, even if fully adapted to a weapon's frequency. And we know that, while the instantaneous capacity is greater than the deflector discharge, the sustained output is less than what an unknown-sized Federation fleet could muster over the course of several hours or so.

[Cpt_Frank]

Well that's exactly what I was trying to say even if the Borg find a way to minimize the damage done by the TL the sheer raw power will finish them off anyway.

[Howedar]

Fucking thread can't stay dead...

So you are basically saying its impossible because you say so, going against evidence to contary.

The weapon obviously had a very high yield to do what it did - your denial of the evidence does not change that evidence.

I am saying it is impossible because it is far and away more destructive than any other weapon ever shown or even hinted at by the Federation (save the Genesis torpedo, but I think we can agree that that is a special case). On the other hand, there are ample opportunities for the Federation to use such weapons. Case in point: the Chintoka defense platform field, which probably could have been completely destroyed before activation by half a dozen of these 800km-destroying monsters.

[Eleas]

There could be air in the place they were phased, or yhe process was selective with certain materials.

Either of these options are unlikely. Geordi and Ro breathed. That means oxygen and nitrogen were absorbed by their lungs. They didn't dry out to husks, that means they absorbed oxygen and hydrogen from the air. They weren't frozen, which means they were in close to thermal equilibrium with the surrounding environment, meaning they absorbed heat as well. There is no reason why the process would be selective, as the phasing process is supposed to affect all matter.

So, your theory: "The phasing cloak makes people invisible and untouchable, but for some reason they can interact with oxygen, nitrogen, hydrogen, heat, pressure and gravity. No wait, they can't interact with gravity, they just stick to the floor by sheer force of will."
My theory: "The phasing cloak makes matter 'phased', thus permeable to photons and 'unphased' matter. It is still affected by gravity, chemical exchange and pressure."
My theory explains everything in far simpler terms than yours, thus it wins by Occam's razor. Your theory is not only ludicrous, but clearly a product of your furious backpedalling.

They also dont ineract with the floors. For some strange reason these may be made of different materials. the gravity explanation doesn't fit.

It clearly fits, you're just trying to avoid the issue. Gravity affects Ro and Geordi, that much is clear, as they would otherwise float around. The floor is coated with gravity plating - that is all that makes it different from the walls. The gravity explanation is all that makes sense. But you don't like what that implies, so you invent strange materials without a shred of proof.

SIF have never been stated to use gravity.

They work similiar to shields, which use gravity. They can also be applied through tractor beams, which use gravity. Although the TM is not usually considered, it states they use gravity as well.

1. There is NO evidence SIF and shields have anything in common.
2. There is NO evidence that shields are created by gravity. We only know there is some connection to gravity, if that.
3. There is NO evidence (as far as I know) that states tractor beams to be gravitic.
4. You can burn your TM.
5. You are incapable of presenting evidence and are a pathetic excuse for a debater.

There's nothing to suggest they can do that. They're just as likely to destroy the model in the process.

They produced it before. However this was done will still work.

You are an idiot. This should be told to you more often, lest you forget the realities of the world.

To answer your moronic assertation, have you ever heard of Fermat's Theorem? It was devised in the 14th century by a french mathematician by the same name. We knew what it did, and still, it took us almost five hundred years to solve HOW it did it.

Having a working model != ability to reproduce said model.

Yes, I fucking do. The Borg. The Dominion. The <insert anything>. Against them, the Phase Cloak was not used. So, what does this tell us? It tells us that either Starfleet doesn't have the plans, or would refuse to use them even if it meant the complete military defeat of the Federation.

They still had a chance to win without help of the phase cloak. Anyhow, I don't care how they would use against any threat, but simply that they could.

I give up. There are only so many ways of telling someone that they are stupid. And Shadow is clearly beyond mere stupidity. He thinks that in the face of a Borg Cube over the Earth, swatting down a Federation fleet like flies, Starfleet Command or Section 51 will say "no, don't use the Phase Cloak, we're still pretty sure it'll work out in the end...", nonwithstanding the fact that anyone with an intact skull would see the obvious: that THERE IS NO FUCKING PHASE CLOAK TO USE!!!

[You are the one who asserts that the cloaking device wasn't working properly. And as usual, you provide zero evidence to support that position, you harp on on an alternative theory despite the fact that it doesn't explain things while mine does. So in all stillness I must inquire of you: are you fucking retarded?

No, I did not. The interphase generator failed in the episode. The entire reason they were phase was caused by this. Did you ever watch the episode?

Yes, I did. And, unlike you, I understood it. The interphase generator failed, but Ro and LaForge were phased. In a practical sense, yes, the generator failed. But technically, it did what it was supposed to do, only with the wrong target. This is supported by LaForge, who deduced what the Phase Cloak did to him by analyzing what it was trying to do. Surprisingly, what it tried to do and what it did was the same thing!

Further, you base all your assumptions about the pahse cloak on a Romulan device.

It is not unreasonable to assume that the two technologies are the same. A phase cloak is a phase cloak. This points to the tech being similar, and Geordi's dialogue confirms this by stating that the Romulans and the Klingons both independently work on the same technology. So again, there is no reason to follow your interpretation and every reason to follow mine.

Shadow. You are beaten. The fact that you won't admit it is to me irrelevant - everyone else reading it knows already. You can dance around in a continuing parody of proper debating, or you can simply admit your defeat gracefully and slink away. Either way, rest assured that the only worries I had debating you was in trying to understand how someone could write what you did and still operate a computer.