Personally I think the empire will be gone after just a few well planed temporal erasures.
Assuming they have the information necessary to plan those erasures, and can actually carry them out, yes. Assuming one of those erasures will include a random Star Destroyer sent on patrol? Not likely.
The weapon is outside of space-time, that's the most obvious reason why they couldn't get a lock on them.
Regular shields often (well, depending on the episode
) stop transporters too you know. So for that matter do a whole plethora of both artificial and natural things - we've seen electrical storms stop transporters as I recall.
Voyager vibrating doesn't help much since anyone with eyes can see the ship coming at that point.
Nonono, you misunderstand. I want you to explain to me how Annorax's ship can MAKE Voyager vibrate, given that it's not meant to be in the same space-time?
I had no doubt you would ignore the agelessness of the crew.
There are two reasons I ignore it.
1. It's irrelevant beyond, as I said, the fact that the crew will be alive for however long the job takes.
2. It doesn't make sense, because you're talking about magic shielding repairing the body, fighting off the effects of entropy, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc... well, you get the idea.
Voyager is moving at a slower speed and you don't see the krenim's shields stop voyager so paris was right about the conventional shields being weak. We don't see the ship as its being attacked to tell whether photons are going penetrating it or not.
1. As I noted, Tom Paris said (paraphrased): "the shields are weak, a photon grenade could penetrate the
hull." Probably he DID just mean the shields rather than the hull, which as I noted stood up nicely to Voyager hitting it, although it obviously did enough damage to muck up their temporal core. My whole point about referring to Tom Paris & his photon grenade was, of course, completely missed by you. Or ignored, whatever.
2. We do see the ship when it is under attack, whilst its magic shielding is both up and down, and it looks identical.
Well we know erasing a comet erased all the fragments of the comet that made its way to planets and caused life to evolve even though the fragments were no longer attached to the comet.
I believe that was a calculated example, but regardless, comets striking planets causing life to emerge are in a completely different class to erasing a few pounds of gold from very large-scale processes inside a planet or planetary nebula.
no you fucktard, if a molecule was floating in space the krenim's weapon can shoot it and erase it from history thus controlling the destiny of a single molecule. Perhaps they have the ability to adjust to narrow the length of a beam to that of a molecule so that molecule erasures of all sorts can be done but they don't show this on the episode.
Assuming that by "control the destiny of a single molecule", Annorax actually meant "I can fire a really narrow beam that will only erase a single molecule", then sure.
But he wouldn't have the cultural knowledge of the people that would be created and destroyed and all the historic details being rewritten. We just have to accept that the krenim's technology has this the ability to aquire this data no matter what it is. The evidence suggests this.
Actually, in the same episode, we see Voyager get new maps of the local powers pretty damn fast, so if Annorax's ship has similarly powerful sensors (and why not, given what it does), he should be able to acquire new information from the region pretty quickly. However, that does not mean he'll be able to acquire information about a millennia-old galaxy-spanning civilisation anywhere near as quickly as with his piddling little corner of the galaxy. Hell, by the time it takes him to travel from one side to the other gathering intel, his start point may have undergone a revolution
.
What you're trying to do is state that the ship is vulnerable to weapons because it is visible and can be scanned. There were things in star trek before that were in temporal flux and were still visible. The temporal agent danials had a gadget her wore on his hand that allowed him to walk through matter and yet sound waves were still able to vibrate the hairs in his ears allowing him to still hear what the crew was saying and photons were able to make contact with the rods and cones in his eyeballs allowing him to see. Yet he's able to still pass through matter.
Yes. If I can see something, then there is something there. And if I can see that something, that means that it is interacting with photons. Lasers shoot photons. Therefore, if I can see something, I can shoot it with a laser. My three year old sister understands this logic better than you.
The visuals support the weapons capabilities in many areas. The other areas you find to contradict the weapons abilities can be attributed to more ignorance of the ship's abilities. In the case of contradicting visual evidence of the ship's abilities we can turn to dialog for the final ruling. Yes,the ship is outside of space-time and impervious to weapons. Deal with it heh. You'll have to show me the site where it says to disregard writer's intent and other star trek canon sources.
I've hardly been attacking the weapon's capabilities. It gets into orbit, shoots, and there we go. What I've been attacking is its supposed invulnerability and the assumption that just because Star Wars doesn't have identical technology that its own temporal technology is useless as a defence. As for your devotion to dialogue...yeah, whatever.
Here's how we analyse sci-fi at SDN:
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Ess ... lysis.html
what kind of chain-reaction weapon can destroy a planet in a matter of seconds? Unless the planet is made of anti-matter, being able to prove this would be difficult. Since it's never been proven that species 8472's weapons are chain reaction based there's no reason to think it's not just raw power. Chain reaction weapons generally don't need much power either, if this were the case then they wouldn't need the combine the power of 8 bioships to do the job.
Off the top of my head, my guess would be a variation on the chain reaction tech used in good old phasers (see main site for the NDF theory I'm talking about). Raw power however would yield a much more immediate result than what we saw. Just compare the time between the 8472 planetbuster beam hitting the planet and it exploding, and the Death Star's beam hitting the planet and it exploding. The latter is what happens when you use raw power, the former when you use, well, something else at least.
time-dilation caused by faster than light travel.
http://sheol.org/throopw/tachyon-pistols.html there's a proof of why faster than light travel causes changes in the speed of time. If star wars had this problem with their propulsion then star trek must have had the problem to and this ability did not save them from being affected by the temporal shockwave.
Proof that the Federation et al use the same principles as those in Star Wars ships? Especially given how Warp drive works?
That's the result of temporal properties of the ship and the ship has a temporal disruption which causes it to affect things nearby. Okay let's say you're right and since light and scans can penetrate the temporal field then a phaser can too.
Phasers =/= lasers. They appear to be more like some kind of particle beam than anything else actually. Again, see the NDF theory page on the main site.
yes, in 5000 parsecs of krenim space it's reasonable to assume that there's at least one krenim ship traveling at warp in their space. Yet when the krenim imperium got erased there were no krenim vessels left here's the proof
Does Voyager know of the capabilities of all those vessels, beyond being able to detect them? All you've really proven is that the number of vessels has changed.
I don't see how guinan knowing about changes in time proves your point either.
Which is more likely? That you can sense a change in your own history, or that you can sense changing universes?
yes but the krenim imperium weren't able to stop annorax from changing their imperium.
So? All that means is that Annorax was powerful / fast enough to act in spite of them (never mind if he had orders or official help). My point is that people don't generally just invent something out of the blue like that, they're usually working on existing principles and science.
if that were true he wouldn't be staring at the viewscreen watching when the planets got erased.
It's slap bang in front of his chair on the bridge, and he's the commanding officer. What's the alternative - studying the floor?
That's right. The force works from a magic too. Being able to move things with a single thought and see into the future. Sounds pretty supernatural to me. I also find it hilarious that the primary argument against the krenim weapon winning is to deny the canon fact that the krenim exists outside of space-time.
1. The Force, which we don't fully understand, seems pretty supernatural.
2. Therefore the Krenim ship, which we don't fully understand, must also be supernatural.
Wait what?
actually it's not proven that the death star isn't a chain reaction weapon too. The chain reaction would be a very fast one but still a chian reaction none-the-less.
Occam's Razor says otherwise. Furthermore, the new Death Star book actually notes that the beam shunts a portion of the target's mass into hyperspace or something (I haven't read the book, just going by other comments here), which I believe requires even more energy than simple vaporisation.
sure it's the krenim vessel against the empire, it doesn't have to be with annorax. You can put holograms or robots on there if it suits you. You can even make the whole process automated.
"Sir, we've scanned the vessel but detected no lifeforms."
Leaving aside Imperial scanners for a moment, how much else are we going to have to change before the ship's ready to face the Galactic Empire
?
They said their territory spans 5000 parsecs meaning that it's 5000 parsecs across. Given how many worlds that are in krenim territory, 50x10x10 parsecs is irrational and shows signs of failing to comprehend basic english.
5000 parsecs across... and how wide? Or deep? This is space for god's sake. 50x10x10 parsecs was an example I gave to show how small a 5000 cubic parsec volume really is. Number of worlds within Krenim territory depends a lot on local conditions, terraforming technology, and the like.
there's no visual evidence, dialog, or information in technical manuals that supports visual shock absorbers.
Huh? We're talking about the Krenim crew not being shaken around by weapon impacts on the shields I thought. What's this got to do with that?
ok temporal field impacts look similar to shield impacts. Since this is the first time you've seen a temporal field I guess you learned something new today.
That's not the point. The point is, it's
hitting something. Hitting things not in our normal space-time like that
can't be done.
Voyager didn't approach it with enough force to have the same impact of a photon grenade
You're right, it had more of an impact most likely. Multi-million-ton ship + few m/s velocity = much (much much) momentum, vs pipsqueak kinetic energy imparted by photon grenades. Enough in fact for Voyager to basically crumple and explode. It looks TBH like Paris got mixed up when he said "shields are weak, grenade can penetrate the hull", and just meant the shields... obviously the hull is made of sterner stuff (or at least the front part, could Paris have meant say the more spherical parts of the ship further back?).
doesn't do much good without temporal shields, there's not canon proof that they have the knowledge necessary to build temporal shielding.
The point is that ships that can divert more power to temporal shields will be able to survive the beam. As for whether Star Wars has them... see elsewhere.
According to your retarded gold watch / mine scenario, that should probably have been enough to stop the whole planet from forming.
planets don't need gold to form.
I meant with regards to your comment on the weapon erasing the (local?) top layer of crust etc of a colonised planet when it removes the colony.
But you did say you don't care about writer's intent. It's the intent of the writer of ICS of episode 2 that the quad lasers have 200 gigatons of firepower and that is something we just don't see on film.
Urgh. The ICS books say "200GT turbolasers" or whatever. I don't care
why the guy wrote that. What I care about is its level of canonicity (pretty high, not that I imagine anyone here will convince you).
When annorax erased a zaul colony, the colony was not replaced with another zaul colony. This is evidence that erasing a star destroy won't make another appear in its place. In the episode "Remember Me", things were being erased from history in the universe dr. crusher was in and they weren't instantly replaced. Everyone rationalized the losses in their own logical way. It could be as straightforward as erasing the ships and then the empire finds itself without an army.
It's a planet. Obviously in the new history after erasure, nobody went there. The idea though that you can erase ships from someone's fleet and suddenly they're without an army or whatever is so retarded I don't know whether to laugh or cry.
given some contradicting visual evidence of their current state and dialogue of dubious accuracy, I'm going to chuck out the visual evidence because it doesn't agree with my preconceived ideas of who should win.
Fixed
.
not saying that at all, surprised you come to that conclusion heh this is some proof that star wars fans are delusional and see only what they want to see. In the best case scenarios a star destroyer or some other ship will take its place. This weapon is called a weapon for a reason though. It's alittle naive to just assume that the consequences of all possible erasures would be positive or negligible. We saw the krenim weapon never had positive results when restoring their own empire until about 200 years after they started and they were deliberately trying to make themselves what they were before. When the weapon is deliberately trying to erase the empire any reasonable person will come to the conclusion that they will succeed, especially with unlimited attempts allowed.
1. It's not a best-case scenario, it's a "most likely" scenario you idiot. If you don't have Ship A to send on patrol, you send Ship B. If Ship A never existed, you send Ship B, because, well, there is no Ship A.
How is that hard to understand?
2. You won't GET unlimited attempts is our point.
just because one mission is difficult to achieve doesn't mean he cannot achieve other missions in less time. For example, if his mission was to make the krenim empire weaker then he did that right away just like he can make the empire on star wars weaker.
We're not failing, we're redefining the objective and succeeding!
Seriously.
Erasing the comet on the voyager episode stopped the formation of life on all planets in that star system. Abiogenesis is a complex process and requires a lot of time. Billions of years in fact is needed to create life, then complex life, then intelligent life, and then lifeforms capable of even acquiring space travel. Erasing the water on the planets alone would be a good start to stopping evolution from taking place.
All true, but irrelevant when you get a few turbolasers punching holes in your ship before you're in weapons range.
not really part of the crew, just one crew member. He was probably convinced that voyager would help him return to his people too. The crew probably won't revolt if they are in enemy territory like that and considering they can do something for 200 years shows something about their resolve.
Yes, and the rest of the crew valiantly attempt to restrain Obrist... no wait, they just
stand by and let him do his thing.
All star trek ships have technology that solves the same problems that relativistic shielding solves. We know star trek ships are not immune to changes in history from going at warp.
Hell, it could simply be that piddling Star Trek power supplies are overwhelmed by the Krenim temporal weapon, and that they don't give out even level 1 temporal distortions because they're so damn weak.
It's obsurd to just assume that since relativistic shielding can now protect them from all temporal weapons when they plainly say that this so call shielding does not protect against weapons.
1. Star Wars doesn't use time-based weaponry, so the weaponry being referred to here is obviously regular Star Wars stuff.
2. The Star Wars wiki isn't written with crossovers in mind, so article authors wouldn't think to mention other universes.
the second in command and he wouldn't be stupid enough to do it in this case. It would be suicide.
It was suicide in the episode as well, idiot. Obrist still did it, and he had enough support from the bridge crew that they stood there and did nothing.
All they would have to do is threaten to use the weapon and let everyone know that when they do it would alter history causing their lives to be different and their own personal identities to cease to exist. The empire would raise the white flag and that would be the end of it. Easy scare tactic.
Meanwhile, on a planet the Krenim have no idea about, Empire scientists perfect a countermeasure.
Or more likely, the Krenim threaten to use it and get a turbolaser barrage in the face. Take your pick.
And you remember annorax saying "impossible, our calculations were perfect" implying that his computer system has the ability to take everythign into account.
And he's obviously a lying nutter too, given how often he mucks up the calculations and can't get it right. 200 years of failure, remember?
What's the point of working on temporal calculations if he does not plan to erase something?
A hobby? Unrelated research into cause and effect?
Basically there's nothing to suggest that he didn't make another.
Except that if he'd made another, Voyager would've been caught in an unending loop of destroying the ship only to encounter it again, only to destroy it, etc etc etc. If you can, try thinking about it.
The ship still has the property of being impervious to weapons that comes with being outside of space time. The property of being ageless is still there. The reason why the crew is visible and that the ship can be scanned to some degree is because the photons are allowed to bounce off of them and make them visible but the photons do not damage them since they still have the property of being impervious to weapons. In fact any matter can make contact with the vessel but it cannot damage it. We've seen no visual evidence that suggests the ship can be damaged by weapons either. It's the perfect weapon really, it has all the advantages of being outside of space-time and all the advantages of being in space-time. That's why annorax says the ship is protected from space-time.
Learn basic physics, moron. When light bounces off something, it imparts energy into that something. If so, then why can't a freaking big laser do the same?
I'm beginning to get bored of this now though. We've had the broken record, the failure to understand fundamental physics, the dishonesty, the arbitrary changing of conditions, and some points that are so hilariously retarded I'm practically speechless.
Incidentally, here's an idea of how the Krenim supership really worked: it was a type of phase cloak. You know, the thing that puts you "out of phase" with the rest of the universe? We've seen that objects affected by them are still subject to at least some normal stuff (like when Geordi, I think it was, was put out of phase aboard the Enterprise, he still walked on the floor, was subject to gravity, and could see and breathe). Obviously the Krenim ship uses a different and more advanced design that, to Starfleet sensors, makes it appear like it isn't part of normal space-time. Unfortunately, the Krenim phase cloak isn't perfect enough to stop other effects (although its most important one - that if protecting the crew from the changes the main weapon makes - works fine, like Voyager's temporal shields did), hence why it is visible etc.
Commander of the MFS Darwinian Selection Method (sexual)
