Defending the Federation(RAR)

[Eternal_Freedom]

It's not like we ever saw the minutiae of capital ship navigation on either side.

I would think that Han did not expect to have to escape rather than leave normally. Of course, it's possible he did have the course pre-plotted, but had to change some numbers due to his sudden, unpplanned, hurried departure.

[darthy]

Krieger Waves aren't repulsion beams. To use a repulsion beam, you need an objet to repel. Great, if you're right near a planet (or repelling ships from a planet). Useless if you're in open space.

They aren't an engine system either, that's why I said it. An engine system is not needed. They could just build a portable repulsion beam (kinda like the catapult did in episode "voyager conspiracy") to hurl them elsewhere after they get thrown where ever they go.

The Queen is the only Borg who has ever negotiated. You would need to talk to her. Again you forget, this is a realistic simulation. Even then, why would she negotiate? Unless S8472 are back and the Borg need your help. Maybe you should ask the OP to change the situation?

both borg queens negotiated, a borg cube negotiated with janeway, the borg children negotiated, seven of nine negotiated with chakotay and janeway. Not the first time i've corrected your lack of knowledge of canon and probably won't be the last. Or you're just a liar (that's called an accusation)

Just for argument's sake, let's step away from realistic simulation and into the fantasy realm that you clearly inhabit. If the Borg give you transwarp technology (because they're just so into the habit of giving technology away), you will need to build transwarp hubs and set up conduits- in other words: install a completely new infrastructure. While being attacked. And your infrastructure is vulnerable to attack.And all your ships are docked in Starbases having their experimental phased cloaking devices installed, so they won't even be there to defend your transwarp hubs- wait... how are you going to build the hubs while your ships are being upgraded? Are the Borg going to do it for you? Must be one hell of a deal you struck with them

What's wrong with using the hubs that are already in the galaxy? Worked for voyager when they installed a trainswarp coil.

Seriously, darthy. It's really not that hard to pull a win out this scenario. You only need to use what the Federation already has at their command. It's been done before.

that's fine, if people are convinced the federation can win then my job here is done.

[Eternal_Freedom]

No, your job is not done. Your job in this thread is to create a plan of action for the Federation, with all the knowledge of Star Wars and Star Trek cannon, as if the whole thing was one big holodeck scenario. It also says you have to impress the audience of SD.net members.

I defy you to go through this thread and find a member who was impressed by your suggested courses of action.

Also:

Not the first time i've corrected your lack of knowledge of canon and probably won't be the last. Or you're just a liar (that's called an accusation)

This is possibly the most hilarious statement I have ever head in one of these versus debates. You, after all your dishnest debating tactics, retarded ideas and logical fallacies, aer going to accuse Darth Tedious of lying?

I would be impressed by the bravery of this statement if it stemmed from bravery. But it stems from retardation and ignorance, so I'll go back to thinking you're a useless pice of shit. I think I saw better debating from a spambot once.

Edited for spelling

[Darth Tedious]

Krieger Waves aren't repulsion beams. To use a repulsion beam, you need an objet to repel. Great, if you're right near a planet (or repelling ships from a planet). Useless if you're in open space.

They aren't an engine system either, that's why I said it. An engine system is not needed. They could just build a portable repulsion beam (kinda like the catapult did in episode "voyager conspiracy") to hurl them elsewhere after they get thrown where ever they go.

Repelling against what, exactly? You need an object of sufficient mass to repel against. Also note your idiotic claim: "Krieger waves can do it, therefore a repulsion beam can do it." They are not the same thing. Do you not see any problem with this logic?

The Queen is the only Borg who has ever negotiated. You would need to talk to her. Again you forget, this is a realistic simulation. Even then, why would she negotiate? Unless S8472 are back and the Borg need your help. Maybe you should ask the OP to change the situation?

both borg queens negotiated, a borg cube negotiated with janeway, the borg children negotiated, seven of nine negotiated with chakotay and janeway. Not the first time i've corrected your lack of knowledge of canon and probably won't be the last. Or you're just a liar (that's called an accusation)

Sorry, I'll ask a different question: When have the Borg ever negotiated a handover of technology? And what would you offer them?

What's wrong with using the hubs that are already in the galaxy? Worked for voyager when they installed a trainswarp coil.

Pehaps the fact that they are all in Borg space. Transwarp is a point-to-point transportation system, remember. Unless you're seriously suggesting that the Borg already have an extensive mass transit system already established throughout the Federation.

Seriously, darthy. It's really not that hard to pull a win out this scenario. You only need to use what the Federation already has at their command. It's been done before.

that's fine, if people are convinced the federation can win then my job here is done.

What fucking job? Do you feel it's your personal quest to convince people that the Federation can win against the Empire? Wow! You really must have some pretty serious butthurt-fanboy nerdrage.

Have you read the thread yet? Do you know who it was that proposed the winning strategy? Or how it was done? The answer is right in here. Considering you claim to know a lot about Trek, it should have been bleedingly obvious. Yet you immediately jumped to idiotic and unrealistic conclusions about inventing and outfitting new technology and asking your most dangerous enemy for help.

[darthy]

Repelling against what, exactly? You need an object of sufficient mass to repel against. Also note your idiotic claim: "Krieger waves can do it, therefore a repulsion beam can do it." They are not the same thing. Do you not see any problem with this logic?

In space they find ways like the catapolt did in voyager episode "conspiracy".

Have you read the thread yet? Do you know who it was that proposed the winning strategy? Or how it was done? The answer is right in here. Considering you claim to know a lot about Trek, it should have been bleedingly obvious. Yet you immediately jumped to idiotic and unrealistic conclusions about inventing and outfitting new technology and asking your most dangerous enemy for help.

your butt buddy? dude I don't care how as long as someone did it

[darthy]

No, your job is not done. Your job in this thread is to create a plan of action for the Federation, with all the knowledge of Star Wars and Star Trek cannon, as if the whole thing was one big holodeck scenario. It also says you have to impress the audience of SD.net members.

I defy you to go through this thread and find a member who was impressed by your suggested courses of action.

Also:

Not the first time i've corrected your lack of knowledge of canon and probably won't be the last. Or you're just a liar (that's called an accusation)

This is possibly the most hilarious statement I have ever head in one of these versus debates. You, after all your dishnest debating tactics, retarded ideas and logical fallacies, aer going to accuse Darth Tedious of lying?

I would be impressed by the bravery of this statement if it stemmed from bravery. But it stems from retardation and ignorance, so I'll go back to thinking you're a useless pice of shit. I think I saw better debating from a spambot once.

Edited for spelling

yeah yeah, too tired to do that right now. Janeway uses what she has (her body) to convince Q to destroy star wars in exchange for sex and having his kid. Q snaps his fingers and sends star wars into nothingness. Done. I figured everyone was betting against the feds so if someone wasn't then I don't need to bother.

[Batman]

I think we'll take that as a concession that without Q, you can't think of a way for the Feds to do it. When at least one way to do it has already been presented in this thread. Collapse the wormhole.

[darthy]

I think we'll take that as a concession that without Q, you can't think of a way for the Feds to do it. When at least one way to do it has already been presented in this thread. Collapse the wormhole.

Assumes there is a wormhole and that the wormhole can be collapsed with federation technology.

[Darth Tedious]

I think we'll take that as a concession that without Q, you can't think of a way for the Feds to do it. When at least one way to do it has already been presented in this thread. Collapse the wormhole.

Assumes there is a wormhole and that the wormhole can be collapsed with federation technology.

The OP states that there is a wormhole, fucktard. Seriously, it's not too late to admit that you have serious reading and comprehension difficulties.
But wait... are you actually trying to present a bullshit arguement as to why the Feds can't win?

your butt buddy? dude I don't care how as long as someone did it

You still don't know who suggested the strategy, do you? You really should try reading the thread.

[Big Phil]

There's a big problem with that approach DXIII - it contradicts canon, which establishes the size of both the Federation (and the Trek galaxy) and the Empire (and the Wars galaxy).

[Darth Tedious]

FFS, everyone! You're taking all the fun out of it! You should let him try and figure out the answers for himself... each attempt was getting funnier and funnier.

[Darth Tedious]

*A realistic approach to versus debating for Trekkies.*

See, and this is why I have so much respect for you as a debater. You're far from the murderous, apotheosis-craving psychopath I thought I'd met on a Lucrehulk over Ocampa.

[darthy]

I think we'll take that as a concession that without Q, you can't think of a way for the Feds to do it. When at least one way to do it has already been presented in this thread. Collapse the wormhole.

Assumes there is a wormhole and that the wormhole can be collapsed with federation technology.

The OP states that there is a wormhole, fucktard. Seriously, it's not too late to admit that you have serious reading and comprehension difficulties.
But wait... are you actually trying to present a bullshit arguement as to why the Feds can't win?

your butt buddy? dude I don't care how as long as someone did it

You still don't know who suggested the strategy, do you? You really should try reading the thread.

I don't see why it's important who suggested the strategy so I'm guessing it was you. You want an award for that or something? The strategy to collapse the wormhole didn't work against the dominion, why is it garanteed to work here?

[Darth Tedious]

I don't see why it's important who suggested the strategy so I'm guessing it was you.

You guess correctly. Though, if you'd actually bothered to read the thread, you wouldn't have needed to guess.

You want an award for that or something?

No, I certainly don't deserve one. It was a fairly obvious answer to the problem. I'm really surprised you didn't think of it yourself.

The strategy to collapse the wormhole didn't work against the dominion, why is it garanteed to work here?

Already been discussed. Seriously, read the fucking thread. Again, I must say, after the harebrained ideas you've floated in this thread, I'm shocked that you'd try to argue against the realistic victory plan the was suggested for the Federation.

I won't be the first to remind you: Your job in this thread was to present a plan of what you would do, and entertain the SD.net regulars. Not to dismiss what has already been accepted by them as a viable plan because you didn't think of it.

P.S.- Your concession on there being a wormhole in this situation is accepted.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Darthy, I'm still waiting for you to find me a SD.net member who was impressed by your strategy.

Even our (dare I say it) foremost Trek proponent, DXIII, goes with different ideas and (from what I can tell form his posts, and I may be wrong, feel free to yell at me if I am DXXII ) he thinks you're an asshole as well.

Your comment about "depends if there is a wormhole" shows yu didn't read the OP at all. I bet you just saw "Defending the Federation RAR" and jumped to the last post and threw yourself in.

As Darth Tedious pointed out, we've come up with a winning or near-winning strategy for Trek in this scenario. Why do you insist on throwing out rnadom shitty arguments like you do? Does it make you feel better about yourself for some reason?

[Batman]

Erm-how did the strategy to collapse the wormhole not work against the Dominion? They never did it to begin with. For a strategy to be shown a failure it has to be actually tried first.

[Batman]

Well for me, failure means they actually do try to collapse the wormhole and it doesn't happen. You know, firing a couple quantum torpedoes into it and detonating them and guess what? The wormhole's still there. That's the plan failing.The plan didn't fail, it was never carried out to begin with.

[Darth Yoshi]

Speaking of warp tactics, the Federation wouldn't even necessarily need to engage the Imperial beachhead. Presumably, if the wormhole is large enough to allow Imperial warships through, it's large enough to hit without a firing solution. So just warp in the fleet as close to the wormhole as possible, launch the technobabble in its general direction, warp out. It'll still take a few seconds for the guns to physically track to where the Fed ships are, so unless the Empire has some means of disrupting warp travel deployed at all times, or a large enough shield projector in place, the wormhole is wide open.

Hell, if the start of the simulation is the Imperial decision to invade, I could just order Picard to divert from whatever subspace anomaly of the week he was looking at and head over to the wormhole. The Empire needs time to rearrange fleet deployments, and the delay might be enough to reach the wormhole unmolested.

[Stofsk]

Well for me, failure means they actually do try to collapse the wormhole and it doesn't happen. You know, firing a couple quantum torpedoes into it and detonating them and guess what? The wormhole's still there. That's the plan failing.The plan didn't fail, it was never carried out to begin with.

They did try to collapse the wormhole, the graviton emitters were supposed to collapse it forever. It's just that the sabotage done by the Founder posing as Julian Bashir ended up having the opposite effect, rendering it more stable than before. O'Brien opined that not even tri-lithium explosives could collapse it now.

So it was a failure but not one due to DS9's capability but rather it's security (which when you're dealing with a Founder, is actually next-to-impossible to prevent).

[Eternal_Freedom]

Interesting. But I think there is an attached problem to simply replicating SW tech to mount on ST ships. It's not just one pice of tech they need. They need turbolasers, shield generators, hyperdrives, power generators for same. You said as much with the fuel thing.

There is also the matter of engineering knowledge. I believe one of the EU works cited on the main site describes the massive bracing needed for heavy turbolasers. Just replicating the turbolaser would not give you this, so yu're kinda stumped when your fancy refit Sovereign fires up it's shiny new heavy turbolaser, powered by shiny new hypermatter generator, only to have the saucer ripped off b the recoild and whatnot.

To use a computer analogy: There is only so far I can upgrade my graphics card before I hit a limit. That limit is the level fo graphics card my motherboard can support and my PSU can power. This is the same for hard drives, RAM, CPU's whatever. you reach a point where you have to upgrade everything to make one thing any better.

[Batman]

Assuming they can see to it they can arrange for those 'Oops-we accidentally duplicated you' transporter accidents on purpose, there should be no problem with them duplicating Imperial technology up to the size a transporter can handle (which begs the question what, exactly, is that size limit? The largest thing I remember being transported are those whales cum water in TVH and that was a measly BoP so I reckon the big E could handle a lot more, but are we ever given anything quantifiable? Because I seriously doubt the transporters on the E-D can reconstitute a heavy turbolaser simply by virtue of size limits) as while there's plenty of things they can't replicate, there don't seem to be all that many materials they can't beam.

[Eternal_Freedom]

Interesting. But I think there is an attached problem to simply replicating SW tech to mount on ST ships. It's not just one pice of tech they need. They need turbolasers, shield generators, hyperdrives, power generators for same. You said as much with the fuel thing.

Yeah, the devil is always in the fucking details. That's why I prefer to keep the strategies simple, based on things we know are well established and in use regularly.

The other things are fun curiosities though.

They are indeed fun to think about. But it is (like the Borg assimilated Death Star idea) an admission that ST couldn't win on it's own merits.

In this case though, the Feds can win on their own terms. Hooray!

[darthy]

I think we'll take that as a concession that without Q, you can't think of a way for the Feds to do it. When at least one way to do it has already been presented in this thread. Collapse the wormhole.

Assumes there is a wormhole and that the wormhole can be collapsed with federation technology.

The OP states that there is a wormhole, fucktard. Seriously, it's not too late to admit that you have serious reading and comprehension difficulties.
But wait... are you actually trying to present a bullshit arguement as to why the Feds can't win?

your butt buddy? dude I don't care how as long as someone did it

You still don't know who suggested the strategy, do you? You really should try reading the thread.

This strategy was proposed against the dominion. The dominion used their knowledge of their wormhole to stabilize it so no federation technology could close it (DS9 episode "In Purgatory's Shadow")

DS9 episode "By Inferno's Light"

O'BRIEN: I don't know who it was, but they did a pretty thorough job. The emitters had the exact opposite effect to what we'd intended. They were supposed to collapse the wormhole's spatial matrix and close it forever. Instead, they made the matrix even more stable. Not even trilithium explosives could destroy it now.
DAX: So the Dominion can send reinforcements through the wormhole whenever they want.

So assuming the federation fails to close their wormhole, what's your backup plan?

[Darth Tedious]

This strategy was proposed against the dominion. The dominion used their knowledge of their wormhole to stabilize it so no federation technology could close it (DS9 episode "In Purgatory's Shadow")

DS9 episode "By Inferno's Light"

O'BRIEN: I don't know who it was, but they did a pretty thorough job. The emitters had the exact opposite effect to what we'd intended. They were supposed to collapse the wormhole's spatial matrix and close it forever. Instead, they made the matrix even more stable. Not even trilithium explosives could destroy it now.
DAX: So the Dominion can send reinforcements through the wormhole whenever they want.

So assuming the federation fails to close their wormhole, what's your backup plan?

The Dominion did this using a shape-shifting saboteur who had infiltrated the Federation. The Empire do not have any agents within the Federation, much less shape-shifting ones.

Assuming that this plan will fail because it did against the Dominion has already been debunked within this thread, as I told you before. You really should read the thread, instead of bringing up issues which have already been addressed.

Do you have a Plan A yet? You should be more worried your own A plan than my B plan...

You're yet to suggest anything feasible.

[darthy]

The Dominion did this using a shape-shifting saboteur who had infiltrated the Federation. The Empire do not have any agents within the Federation, much less shape-shifting ones.

The empire could stabilize it from their end if its possible. There are changelings in star wars which could infiltrate the federation if they needed to. In most cases we see that wormholes can be stopped with torpedoes in star trek. This does not mean that they all can. Star wars wormholes is another matter. Do you believe the federation could destroy the wormhole if it was one created by a force storm?

Assuming that this plan will fail because it did against the Dominion has already been debunked within this thread, as I told you before. You really should read the thread, instead of bringing up issues which have already been addressed.

I just skimmed over the thread. I liked the part where the mod called Metahive a fuckwit. From what I gathered, it's been concluded that the federation would lose if the wormhole stayed up. So you don't have a plan B do you?

Do you have a Plan A yet? You should be more worried your own A plan than my B plan...

You're yet to suggest anything feasible.

My plan A was phase cloak technology. My plan B is that if the goal here is to just survive, then retreat the federation to the mirror, mirror universe via transporters and bajorian wormhole. Perhaps a peace treaty could be signed with species 8472 and then they could just go to their realm too. The federation can give Species 8472 the go ahead to purge the milky way after the empire arrives with no resistance from the federation in exchange for sanctuary.