Star Destroyers -v- Soverign Class Ships

[Akira]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless
SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through.

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Long range is gone though.

lol. Then all Starfleet has to do is bomb the powercore of the ISD with lowband EM. If Radio can get though, then low level EM can.


(not that EM bomdardment will work) - how many weapons cover the underside of an ISD anyway (from a tight angle near the power dome thing))

[Knife]

Can't get over the "chew toy" thing

will make post conserning the topic later

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

lol. Then all Starfleet has to do is bomb the powercore of the ISD with lowband EM. If Radio can get though, then low level EM can.


(not that EM bomdardment will work) - how many weapons cover the underside of an ISD anyway (from a tight angle near the power dome thing))

Prove that "radio" is SW is our "radio" I remember it being used over long distances.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

And you're still ignoring my posts.

[Mr Bean]

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Repeaters outside of the Shield, Some of the communcators are extended outside of the shield just like sensors

Long-range Hyperwave by thier very nauture are to bit to stick outside the shield

[SirNitram]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless
SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through.

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Long range is gone though.

lol. Then all Starfleet has to do is bomb the powercore of the ISD with lowband EM. If Radio can get though, then low level EM can.

Wow.. And your proof an ISD's powercore will go sky-high if you pump some Mozart into it? This isn't Star Trek, Akira. For a Wars powercore to go sky high you generally need to fire weapons onto the core itself.

[SirNitram]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless
SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through.

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Long range is gone though.

Subspace comms are referred to almost exclusively as medium range(Long range being Holonet), in the form of 'The nearby systems'. So ANH is out. ROTJ falls in a similar way, unless there's long range comms I missed. TPM? The long range comms I recall were when the Queen's Ship was landed and offline due to busted core.

But yea. Normal EM comms aren't touched.

[Ender]

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Repeaters outside of the Shield, Some of the communcators are extended outside of the shield just like sensors

Long-range Hyperwave by thier very nauture are to bit to stick outside the shield

That would work then. I assume this bit is from the same sources that explained how SW ECM works?

[Connor MacLeod]

Ok responding to those previous but uttler more ruthless
SW shielding is so complete that Hyperwave and Subspace communcations are Block, even plain radio communcations are cut off. All evidance(DFR, TESB Nov ect) indicates that when full shields are up NOTHING gets through.

Not entirely correct, it appears short range subspace and radio are still a go, otherwise how could they communicate like we see in ROTJ, ANH, TPM and the novels?

Long range is gone though.

lol. Then all Starfleet has to do is bomb the powercore of the ISD with lowband EM. If Radio can get though, then low level EM can.

There's a difference between an energy weapon and a sensor/radio ping. We know that SW shields are selective in some instances (blocking high KE attacks while letting very low ones through), I fail to see how the same would not be true of ray shields. For that matter, explain cloaking shields - how sensors can be blocked and weapons (even low powered TARGETING ones, such as Pellaeon used in the training mission in Spectre of the Past) can be totally unaffected (esp since Cloaking shields supposedly involve some form of spatial distortion.)

(not that EM bomdardment will work) - how many weapons cover the underside of an ISD anyway (from a tight angle near the power dome thing))

Enough.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually I'm not entirely sure that "comlink/comm" signals are strictly photonic/EM.. they may have an EM component (or decay into such) but I would point out the Corellian Trilogy. In that, standard Comms were jammed along with subspace/hyperwave, yet radio (radionics) and even laser-communications were still viable.

They move at lightspeed of course, but this doesn't make them photonic. I suspect they're a similar form of "massless unknown particle" like what is used in blasters - note that in Iron Fist and once again in "Solo Command" laser weapons (first Dono's sniper rifle, then Lara's TIE laser cannons) they can be configured at low power to carry targeting info (same is true of the heavy laser on a B-wing - by firing it continuously at low output, it can provide near-100% accuracy by the targeting info it provides.)


As for the "low em bombardment" bit, I might point out that radiation shields ARE designed to block out radiation (they also serve as a form of nav sensor) as well as thermonuclear detonations. I am not absolutely sure, but harmful EM radiation from both nukes and space would include low-frequency stuff right? For that matter we also know shields block destrsuctive EMP, which may also be applicable proof.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually I'm not entirely sure that "comlink/comm" signals are strictly photonic/EM.. they may have an EM component (or decay into such) but I would point out the Corellian Trilogy. In that, standard Comms were jammed along with subspace/hyperwave, yet radio (radionics) and even laser-communications were still viable.

They move at lightspeed of course, but this doesn't make them photonic. I suspect they're a similar form of "massless unknown particle" like what is used in blasters - note that in Iron Fist and once again in "Solo Command" laser weapons (first Dono's sniper rifle, then Lara's TIE laser cannons) they can be configured at low power to carry targeting info (same is true of the heavy laser on a B-wing - by firing it continuously at low output, it can provide near-100% accuracy by the targeting info it provides.)


As for the "low em bombardment" bit, I might point out that radiation shields ARE designed to block out radiation (they also serve as a form of nav sensor) as well as thermonuclear detonations. I am not absolutely sure, but harmful EM radiation from both nukes and space would include low-frequency stuff right? For that matter we also know shields block destrsuctive EMP, which may also be applicable proof.

Now that I just thought of it, in "Lando Calrissian and the Starcave of Thonboka" the Oswaft, a race of intelligent beings who could live in vaccuum and travel through hyperspace, "shouted" at Imperial warships as a form of communications. the "shout" consistend of extremely powerful, tightly focused microwaves, and it was stated this "weapon" would be blocked by shields (in communicating with an Imperial ship, the Oswaft
"attacked" an imperial vessel and destroyed it.)

Also, pre-TL weaponry (I mean tens of thousands of years in the past, probably) included microwave lasers, which even in that time were blockable by "primitive" shields.

I daresay its unlikely any "low EM bombardment" would work, unless its bombardment of offers to surrender.

[Mr Bean]

There's a difference between an energy weapon and a sensor/radio ping.
We know that SW shields are selective in some instances (blocking high KE attacks while letting very low ones through

Not quite TPM theater shield was not a true shield but rather a special purpose forcefield used in thier underwater Citys

One of the reasons slow moving objects can enter while Water and Energy can not

[Connor MacLeod]

There's a difference between an energy weapon and a sensor/radio ping.
We know that SW shields are selective in some instances (blocking high KE attacks while letting very low ones through

Not quite TPM theater shield was not a true shield but rather a special purpose forcefield used in thier underwater Citys

One of the reasons slow moving objects can enter while Water and Energy can not

Oh really? Perhaps you could explain how then both the Ep2 VD and Ep2 ICS mention how clonetroopers and vehicles can penetrate shields (VD mentions Clonetrooper armor protects them from being incinerated when passing through shields, AT-TE entry in the ICS mentions its ability to penetrate deflector shields).

And while we're at it, explain to me HOW the AT-ATs at Hoth got through the Rebel shield, how Anakin's starfighte rbreached the Trade Federation control ship's shields, Yavin (another possibility).

Also explain to me how Droidekas fire out through their shields (possibilites have included the barrels being extended through shields, as well as selective interference (one way interference in this case, though this would clash with Hoth and the ion cannon.)

[arctic_series]

Oh really? Perhaps you could explain how then both the Ep2 VD and Ep2 ICS mention how clonetroopers and vehicles can penetrate shields (VD mentions Clonetrooper armor protects them from being incinerated when passing through shields, AT-TE entry in the ICS mentions its ability to penetrate deflector shields).

well that's really difficult to explain, frankly i don't really see any explanation other than that they're going through ray shielding instead of particle shielding.. ?

And while we're at it, explain to me HOW the AT-ATs at Hoth got through the Rebel shield, how Anakin's starfighte rbreached the Trade Federation control ship's shields, Yavin (another possibility).

1. the AT-AT's landed outside the influence of the rebel shield, on the far outskirts. the rebel shield only covers a limited area, not the whole planet.

2. anakin's starfighter went through the hangar bays, which isn't necessarily shielded all the time to allow ships to come in and out. simple as that.

Also explain to me how Droidekas fire out through their shields (possibilites have included the barrels being extended through shields, as well as selective interference (one way interference in this case, though this would clash with Hoth and the ion cannon.)

1. the shields can open open in selective areas, timed to split-second accuracy to open up when the droid fires, and closes when firing stops. the same principle on how starships can fire even with shields activated.

2. the ion cannon uses the same principle. shield opens for 1/1000th of a second while the ion cannon lets go a few bolts.

the whole shield opens up in selective area for split second to allow weapons fire to go out and closing up in the next split second is one of the widely accepted explanations.

[Connor MacLeod]

well that's really difficult to explain, frankly i don't really see any explanation other than that they're going through ray shielding instead of particle shielding.. ?

Particle shielding would affect clonetrooper mass as well, being a large-scale macroscopic object (planetary shields, like the DS-2 shield, can obliterate objects colliding with it remember) Aside from which, the AT-TE is specifically described as breaching particle shields.

1. the AT-AT's landed outside the influence of the rebel shield, on the far outskirts. the rebel shield only covers a limited area, not the whole planet.

Uh huh. And how do they reach the base to destroy the generators THROUGH the shield, pray tell? How do they get stormtroopers INSIDE the base when its under teh shield? They still have to go through it on the ground.

2. anakin's starfighter went through the hangar bays, which isn't necessarily shielded all the time to allow ships to come in and out. simple as that.

Simple? So Anakin was merely "lucky" to squeak through one of these so called openings? Where was the ship the hole was opened for? And why didn't Anakin collide with it?

1. the shields can open open in selective areas, timed to split-second accuracy to open up when the droid fires, and closes when firing stops. the same principle on how starships can fire even with shields activated.

Proof? As I recall, that only works when your shields have multiple sections to them, allowing you to overlap them. Droideka shields are a single bubble.

2. the ion cannon uses the same principle. shield opens for 1/1000th of a second while the ion cannon lets go a few bolts.

the whole shield opens up in selective area for split second to allow weapons fire to go out and closing up in the next split second is one of the widely accepted explanations.

Its official yes, but it requires the use of multiple, overlapping shield generators. Such as what planetary defense networks use. Lower one section or several without dropping the whole shield.

[FettKyle]

Uh huh. And how do they reach the base to destroy the generators THROUGH the shield, pray tell? How do they get stormtroopers INSIDE the base when its under teh shield? They still have to go through it on the ground.

I believe the shield was described as being more like a umbrella not really reaching the ground. Or the shield was being projected around the Base instead of the Generator and the Base.

[Patrick Ogaard]

The ability of suitably protected ground troops and ground vehicles to penetrate a theater shield could also be based on the following, full of conjecture and precarious analogy:

A particle shield acts like an energy-based version of a non-Newtonian liquid -- this would be the point at which those more familiar with the proper terminology could just jump right in an provide that proper terminology -- and is therefore permeable to slow masses.

So how does this work? I have no idea how it really works. But the effects would be exactly as observed in the movies. The effect is essentially like that of extremely overdone surface tension. A high velocity impact immediately "hardens" the particle shield into a rigid shell that spreads the kinetic energy throughout the shield in the same way that a ray shield absorbs and spreads out electromagnetic energies. Add to that suitable anchoring of the generating systems and a link to the tensorial and anticoncussion fields, and a shielded ship should be able to sustain substantial kinetic impacts without shield failure.

Lower velocity impacts would react with the shield the same way a moderate-sized insect interacts with the surface film of water: the object is slowed but should be able to push through the shield. Extremely small objects, such as atmospheric molecules, especially if their motion is rapid, are affected extremely when they come under the influence of a particle shield. The effect produces extreme heat at the interface, as well as a massive static charge (in part from simple friction).

Clonetroopers, battle droids and Republic and Imperial walkers, manage to pass through shields based on three factors: grounding, superconductivity (or the Faraday cage effect of an all-metal battle droid chassis coupled with a lack of heat sensitivity), and low speed. The resistance of the shield's barrier surface would explain the sideways tuck used by the battle droids to push through: the droids minimized the cross section exposed to the field at any one time and thus had more strength available to push through.

A repulsorlift vehicle can not effectively ground itself, and therefore the shield's static charge would immediately ground out through the vehicle. The vehicle immediately disappears in a titanic lightning bolt, and even if the vehicle survives it should be severely damaged. The same goes for fighters, and the relativistic ion thrusters used by fighters would likely blow up catastrophically if the fighter tried to pass a shield not specifically adjusted to allow the fighter's passage. The particle stream would lose all momentum as soon as it exited the thruster nozzle, producing a blockage that acts like a cork. Pressure builds up in a split second as the still-speedy stream tries to push through the blockage and loses its own momentum, further increasing the blockage. Kaboom.

Adjusting the characteristics of the shield can be used to produce variant effects, such as the surface tension barriers used by the Gungans in their cities, and vehicles and the tense air barriers ("magnetic barriers" in Imperial parlance) used in hangars and gun bays otherwise open to space. Increased energy expenditures could also make the particle shield effective against slower objects, with a suitably high powered -- and therefore expensive -- shield being impervious to almost any object's passage, at least until the shield collapses under excessive strain.

Anakin Skywalker's ability to pass through the hangar shields of the Trade Federation droid control ship would have to rely specifically on unmilitary screw-ups on the part of the Trade Federation command personnel (which would seem characteristic of them). Specifically, someone seems to have forgot to set the hangar particle shields to keep out fighters. It was either a simple but disastrous oversight born of overconfidence, or a coordination error that kept the shield permeable even though no robotic fighter was flying in or out at that time. The unusual placement of the hangar entrances would make a torpedo attack by a fighter an option only for suicidal pilots, and the ray shielding was almost certainly unaffected, so firming up the hangar shields against projectile attacks may not have been an operational priority.

[Isolder74]

Anakin Skywalker's ability to pass through the hangar shields of the Trade Federation droid control ship would have to rely specifically on unmilitary screw-ups on the part of the Trade Federation command personnel (which would seem characteristic of them). Specifically, someone seems to have forgot to set the hangar particle shields to keep out fighters. It was either a simple but disastrous oversight born of overconfidence, or a coordination error that kept the shield permeable even though no robotic fighter was flying in or out at that time. The unusual placement of the hangar entrances would make a torpedo attack by a fighter an option only for suicidal pilots, and the ray shielding was almost certainly unaffected, so firming up the hangar shields against projectile attacks may not have been an operational priority.

If you noticed real military ships(Star Destroyer or Mon Cal) have their Hangers shields up at all time unless when fighters were being launched. A good example is when a tie fighter hits a Mon Cal's hanger and is instantly vaporized. It seems you are right that the Trade Federation are complete morons when it comes to managing combat. Mistakes include: Dropping hanger shield while under attack and not launching fighters, withdrawing the entire blockade leaving only the Droid Control Ship, sending almost their entire army to fight the Gungans assuming that the Queen is with that army without proper intellegence, Invading in the first place.

[Patrick Ogaard]

If you noticed real military ships(Star Destroyer or Mon Cal) have their Hangers shields up at all time unless when fighters were being launched. A good example is when a tie fighter hits a Mon Cal's hanger and is instantly vaporized. It seems you are right that the Trade Federation are complete morons when it comes to managing combat. Mistakes include: Dropping hanger shield while under attack and not launching fighters, withdrawing the entire blockade leaving only the Droid Control Ship, sending almost their entire army to fight the Gungans assuming that the Queen is with that army without proper intellegence, Invading in the first place.

You'll get no argument from me. Simply buying mechanical soldiers and lots of military hardware does not a successful military force make, as the Neimoidians found out to their sorrow and our enjoyment.

[Kuja]

You'll get no argument from me. Simply buying mechanical soldiers and lots of military hardware does not a successful military force make, as the Neimoidians found out to their sorrow and our enjoyment.

While that's true, I don't think it applies in the case of the final battle on Naboo. Think about it, had the droidekas been allowed to use deadly force, they'd have eliminated Padme and her group as they reached the doors to the throne room. The other droids did a good job of herding them there, but the Viceroy stepped in and said he wanted her ALIVE. Mistake.

Second mistake: the nems didn't launch all the fighters immediately. Instead, they waited until the last freaking moment, then KEPT launching while the dogfight raged!

Finally, the plains. The droid army comepletely defeated the Gungans, and only the stupidity of the Nems kept victory from their grasp.

[Knife]

Exactly, getting a bunch of morons (droids) and arming them with state of the art weapons does not make a crack unit and cann't replace or override a good bunch of leaders who know what the fuck they are doing.

[Patrick Ogaard]

You'll get no argument from me. Simply buying mechanical soldiers and lots of military hardware does not a successful military force make, as the Neimoidians found out to their sorrow and our enjoyment.

While that's true, I don't think it applies in the case of the final battle on Naboo. Think about it, had the droidekas been allowed to use deadly force, they'd have eliminated Padme and her group as they reached the doors to the throne room. The other droids did a good job of herding them there, but the Viceroy stepped in and said he wanted her ALIVE. Mistake.

Second mistake: the nems didn't launch all the fighters immediately. Instead, they waited until the last freaking moment, then KEPT launching while the dogfight raged!

Finally, the plains. The droid army comepletely defeated the Gungans, and only the stupidity of the Nems kept victory from their grasp.

We're agreeing on this, actually. The Neimoidians bought their assorted military hardware, and it worked quite effectively. What the Neimoidians did not buy was a variety pack of competent military leaders to go with all their military toys.

[Ender]

Exactly, getting a bunch of morons (droids) and arming them with state of the art weapons does not make a crack unit and cann't replace or override a good bunch of leaders who know what the fuck they are doing.

I think you meant to say

Exactly, getting a bunch of morons (Federation troops) and arming them with state of the art weapons does not make a crack unit and cann't replace or override a good bunch of leaders who know what the fuck they are doing.

[Knife]

Even better.

[D.Turtle]

IIRC, when Anakain flies into the Hangar, you can see some TradeFederation ships just exitting the Hangar. It was one of these "lucky" moves from Anakin. (Actually through the Force, but who cares )