Delta Flyer vs X-Wing

[Connor MacLeod]

Accuracy shouldn't really even be relevant yet, since as I Already said, we should be establishing the offensive and defensive capabilities and the engine performance of the Delta flyer.

[Sarevok]

Accuracy shouldn't really even be relevant yet, since as I Already said, we should be establishing the offensive and defensive capabilities and the engine performance of the Delta flyer.

Accuracy is an issue since if the Delta Flyer can not hit the X-Wing it's firepower becomes ireleavant.

[Alyeska]

The Defiant is entirely a red herring. As repeatedly stated the PPCs are fixed axis weapons. Trek beam phasers are not aimed in a traditional sense. They are not turrets, they are emission points that for some reason can fire in any LOS direction. PPCs are cannons firing from an established weapon behind it. Quite different.

The issue with the Runabout is also a red herring. Its been repeatedly shown that in shuttle type vehicles those weapons must be manualy aimed. The Delta Flyer is not such a vehicle because it was built with combat in mind. It has 8 phaser arrays around giving it coverage at every possible angle.

[Alyeska]

Besides which, claiming that 99% accuracy against Federation targets means near-perfect accuracy against the X-wing is rather questionable in any case.

Insurrection shows the off axis and quick aiming capabilities along with pinpoint precision (going after subsystems quickly) are nothing to laugh at.

IIRC, wasn't that at point-blank range and starship against starship?

Irrelevent. They were targeting subsystems and the ability to rapidly alter the axis of fire on another subsystem indicates very good accuracy.

[Alyeska]

Alyeska, I hate to say it, but anyone who could see out of a window (the way Wars gunners can) would have fared better in the Briar Patch, the Mutara Nebula, or the Bazen Rift. There was no excuse for any of the misses in Insurrection or Wrath of Khan, or for most of the misses in Nemesis. In most instances, the target would have filled the bulk of a visual gunner's field of view. In fact, some shots were so bad I'd rather suggest that they were malfunctions - that the phasers successfully targeted the enemy but were physically unable to fire in the same direction.

The Mutara Nebula is a red herring. The Briar Patch accuracy was only a problem for the Torpedoes and I have never made claims for their being exceptionaly accurate.

[Lord Poe]

'Star Trek ships have 99% accuracy!'

"No they don't! Look at this!" [color=violet]http://h4h.com/louis/holo ... vi[/color]

Red Herring!

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet ships have 99% accuracy!'

"But what about the Defiant?

Red Herring! It has fixed weapons emplacements.

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet beam weapons on ships have 99% accuracy!'

But what about the Runabout that missed the Dominion fighter that crashed into the Odyssey?

Red Herring! It....has MANUALLY targeted Starfleet beam weapons!

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet computer targeted beam weapons on ships have 99% accuracy!'

But what about in "Dragon's Teeth", when Voyager couldn't hit the highly maneuverable ships, and Tuvok said since they are highly maneuverable, it was difficult to get a phaser lock? And...if beam weapons are so reliable, why does the Defiant opt to use the PPCs instead of its beam weapon we've only seen it fire twice?

AAAAGGHHHH!!!!!

Can we shovel the shit any higher, guys?

[Lord Poe]

The issue with the Runabout is also a red herring. Its been repeatedly shown that in shuttle type vehicles those weapons must be manualy aimed.

Quotes? Proof?

[Alyeska]

'Star Trek ships have 99% accuracy!'

"No they don't! Look at this!" [color=violet]http://h4h.com/louis/holo ... vi[/color]

Red Herring!

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet ships have 99% accuracy!'

"But what about the Defiant?

Red Herring! It has fixed weapons emplacements.

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet beam weapons on ships have 99% accuracy!'

But what about the Runabout that missed the Dominion fighter that crashed into the Odyssey?

Red Herring! It....has MANUALLY targeted Starfleet beam weapons!

*scribble scribble*

'Starfleet computer targeted beam weapons on ships have 99% accuracy!'

But what about in "Dragon's Teeth", when Voyager couldn't hit the highly maneuverable ships, and Tuvok said since they are highly maneuverable, it was difficult to get a phaser lock? And...if beam weapons are so reliable, why does the Defiant opt to use the PPCs instead of its beam weapon we've only seen it fire twice?

AAAAGGHHHH!!!!!

Can we shovel the shit any higher, guys?

Go fuck yourself Poe. I've never made any claim beyond Beam phasers. Al your doing is deluding yourself into thinking your clever with these word games which are meaningless. BTW, I already factored in every single instance of missing with that 99% figure. You can find exactly 4 examples of Starships missing and 2 examples of shuttle level ships missing. This is out of litteraly hundreds of examples of weapons fire.

Couple more points. Because of the ROF behind PPCs and the fact the Defiant has 4 of them its been shown that the PPCs combined have greater firepower and ROF over the beam phasers it carries. BTW, Dragons Teeth is a red herring example. Tuvok was MANUALY targeting the ships because the targeting systemw as down after the computer core was stolen.

[Lord Poe]

Hooked up to a Cardassian computer system.

Chris O' Farrell used to claim this, but never brought proof to the table. Do you have proof that Starfleet would install FEDERATIONdefense weaponry, but NOT INSTALL Federation computer systems to FIRE that weaponry?

Actualy very little was Federation. The only Federation systems were the popup phasers from the landing pads and it was still hooked into the Cardassian computers.

Again, proof? What about the mini photon torpedo launchers on the spires? They came out and presented themselves along with the phasers when Sisko mentioned the new upgrades. So where is the proof these WEREN'T part of that upgrade?

[Alyeska]

When are you going to bring up Nemesis as proof?

[Alyeska]

Chris O' Farrell used to claim this, but never brought proof to the table. Do you have proof that Starfleet would install FEDERATIONdefense weaponry, but NOT INSTALL Federation computer systems to FIRE that weaponry?

Yes, I do have proof. The fact that the computers they were interfacing with were still Cardassian systems running on Cardassian sensors. Very easy.

Again, proof? What about the mini photon torpedo launchers on the spires? They came out and presented themselves along with the phasers when Sisko mentioned the new upgrades. So where is the proof these WEREN'T part of that upgrade?

The weapon towers were already part of the original design as were the main docking popouts. Both the DS9 TM indicate this as well as the pilot episode. Last of all if those were Starfleet systems that would mean massive modifications to the hull of the station, which we never had any indication of this.

[Alyeska]

Poe, you've argued this battle with me for 18 months now and you have yet to win. The best you can come up with is 6 examples of Starfleet ships missing and even factoring those into all the known examples gives Starfleet a 90% accuracy rating. This means the entire base behind your argument is pointless and you have nothing to stand on.

[Lord Poe]

Go fuck yourself Poe.

Eat my shit, asshole. I wasn't being offensive or attacking you at all, and you come back with this? Nice going, idiot.

I've never made any claim beyond Beam phasers.

REALLY? THat's not what it looks like in this thread. Everything is a "RED HERRING!"

Al your doing is deluding yourself into thinking your clever with these word games which are meaningless.

I suppose by word games you mean me pointing out the holes in your argument. Gotta file that one...

BTW, I already factored in every single instance of missing with that 99% figure. You can find exactly 4 examples of Starships missing and 2 examples of shuttle level ships missing. This is out of litteraly hundreds of examples of weapons fire.

And then you concoct excuse after excuse as to why they missed, and stick to your OWN word games, by attempting to narrow the field to one specific system, ignoring races like the BORG, for example, which is more advanced than the Federation, which miss with beam weapons. But no, that wouldn't fit your idiotic parameters, would it?

Couple more points. Because of the ROF behind PPCs and the fact the Defiant has 4 of them its been shown that the PPCs combined have greater firepower and ROF over the beam phasers it carries.

Which doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if it keeps missing its targets.

BTW, Dragons Teeth is a red herring example.

Of COURSE it is!!!

Tuvok was MANUALY targeting the ships because the targeting systemw as down after the computer core was stolen.

AS I've explained since "Dragon's Teeth" aired, I'm ytalking about the BEGINNING of the episode, where Voyager was in space, and hadn't suffered ANY DAMAGE whatsoever. Go watch the episode. Can't wait for the next "red herring" you pull out of your ass.

[Rogue 9]

I still say that if a Federation fire-control system can miss a big, slow-moving starship at close range, no matter how infrequently, it can also miss an X-wing juking around at attack speed.

[Lord Poe]

Yes, I do have proof. The fact that the computers they were interfacing with were still Cardassian systems running on Cardassian sensors. Very easy.

And again, the proof of this is...what? How fucking stupid would it be to install Terran weapons to UPGRADE the defenses of asn alien space station, only to HANDICAP those upgrades by hobbling their efficiency by controlling them with alien tech that will make them MISS!!???!! Occam's Razor wins out on this one. THe FEd weapons shown on DS9 were shit. Deal with it.

The weapon towers were already part of the original design

I'm not talking about the docking towers, slippery Sam. I'm talking about the popup phasers and mini torp launchers that show themselves right after Sisko introduces those defense systems.

Both the DS9 TM

Non canon, not recognized by Paramount canon policy. For the thousandth fucking time.

Last of all if those were Starfleet systems that would mean massive modifications to the hull of the station, which we never had any indication of this.

So those popup phaser banks and torp launchers were ALWAYS there, I supopose? What did they do, toss out Cardassian horseshoes? Pathetic.

[Lord Poe]

Poe, you've argued this battle with me for 18 months now and you have yet to win.

Appeals to the Black Knight won't erase the fact that I've kicked your ass from one side of the room to the other one on this topic.

[Alyeska]

Eat my shit, asshole. I wasn't being offensive or attacking you at all, and you come back with this? Nice going, idiot.

And what do you call that previous post? Friendly mocking?

REALLY? THat's not what it looks like in this thread. Everything is a "RED HERRING!"

Piss off. You damned well know what I was saying unless you completely forgot every debate we've had on the subject over the last 18 months.

I suppose by word games you mean me pointing out the holes in your argument. Gotta file that one...

Grow a fucking brain. I was only talking about beam phasers and you damned well know it.

And then you concoct excuse after excuse as to why they missed, and stick to your OWN word games, by attempting to narrow the field to one specific system, ignoring races like the BORG, for example, which is more advanced than the Federation, which miss with beam weapons. But no, that wouldn't fit your idiotic parameters, would it?

Read my fucking posts. I already said I ACCOUNTED for these examples. Furthermore I already stated my position had to do with targeting computers and the Dragons Teeth example becomes a red herring.

Which doesn't mean a whole hell of a lot if it keeps missing its targets.

Yes... Please find me excessive examples of the Defiant missing. The one vs the Lakota is a red herring because the ship rolled. The other two examples have to do with the Defiant firing on a Jem'Hadar and a Breen ship. The Defiant maintains a remarkably good accuracy rating with fixed axis weapons.

BTW, Dragons Teeth is a red herring example.

Of COURSE it is!!!

AS I've explained since "Dragon's Teeth" aired, I'm ytalking about the BEGINNING of the episode, where Voyager was in space, and hadn't suffered ANY DAMAGE whatsoever. Go watch the episode. Can't wait for the next "red herring" you pull out of your ass.

And even if your example is valid, its ultimately irrelevent because I've already accounted for it. Thats why I claim 90-99% accuracy, not 100%. You've yet to actualy disprove my claim.

[Alyeska]

Poe, you've argued this battle with me for 18 months now and you have yet to win.

Appeals to the Black Knight won't erase the fact that I've kicked your ass from one side of the room to the other one on this topic.

Funny man. I state 99% accuracy (90% is probably more accurate) and you try and attack it by showing a small number of examples. I inform you I've already accounted for these examples. Your entire base for debate suddenly disapears.

Get this straight Poe. I've already accounted for the three Voyager examples of Starships missing. I've already accounted for the Deep Space Nine example of Small ships missing. I've already accounted for the Insurrection example of small ships missing. I've already accounted for the Nemesis example of Starships missing.

That is every single example of Starships and Small Ships in Starfleet missing. EVERY SINGLE ONE. Your use of these examples is ultimately irrelevent because they've already been examined and accounted for in the final tally on Starfleet accuracy.

[Alyeska]

I still say that if a Federation fire-control system can miss a big, slow-moving starship at close range, no matter how infrequently, it can also miss an X-wing juking around at attack speed.

Can you actualy give me an example of this in regards to beam phasers.

[Alyeska]

And again, the proof of this is...what? How fucking stupid would it be to install Terran weapons to UPGRADE the defenses of asn alien space station, only to HANDICAP those upgrades by hobbling their efficiency by controlling them with alien tech that will make them MISS!!???!! Occam's Razor wins out on this one. THe FEd weapons shown on DS9 were shit. Deal with it.

Occams Razor is irrelevent. We already know from Canon that Deep Space Nine still uses Cardassian computers.

I'm not talking about the docking towers, slippery Sam. I'm talking about the popup phasers and mini torp launchers that show themselves right after Sisko introduces those defense systems.

There is only one of these examples, its a pop-up phaser system that comes from the runabout pads. There were no pop-up torpedoes that Starfleet installed.

Non canon, not recognized by Paramount canon policy. For the thousandth fucking time.

Yet Mike seems to use it from time to time and its a valid supporting piece of evidence.

So those popup phaser banks and torp launchers were ALWAYS there, I supopose? What did they do, toss out Cardassian horseshoes? Pathetic.

There were no popup phaser banks, only torpedo launchers. And yes, they were always there.

[Rogue 9]

I still say that if a Federation fire-control system can miss a big, slow-moving starship at close range, no matter how infrequently, it can also miss an X-wing juking around at attack speed.

Can you actualy give me an example of this in regards to beam phasers.

Hmm... Every time they've ever missed. I mean, come on, when do they ever fight anything smaller than a Bird of Prey? An X-wing is not going to make a stationary target of itself, and it is much more maneuverable than anything Trek has ever shown.

Unless you're asking for an example of beam phasers firing at and missing an X-wing. No, of course I can't give you that.

[The Silence and I]

Calculations were extrapolated from Mike's calculator, and of course, if I made a mistake, please correct me.

There is a fundamental flaw in your reasoning:
why are you declaring a lower-limit value (yours) to be in conflict with a higher value (from ICS)? This runs counter to the very definition of lower limits.

I was not aware I claimed this, I pointed out this does not rule out the ability of Slave-I to turn up the juice, it merely points out that for whatever reason (and I suggested the high rate of fire as a reason) the juice was not turned up. Clear?

There is no reason why we would expect all of a thermal weapon's energy to manifest in fragmentation. That's fine if you are trying to determine the absolute minimum energy requirements - but not for determining the actual shield strength of Obi-Wan's fighter.

Granted, yes, heating must occur in order to produce mechanical effects, but not orders of magnitude more heating for a mechanical effect.

Some heating MUST occur for mechanical effects to be observed at all - and your analysis provides no accounting for either the heat required or the inherent inefficiencies.

I did not include those inefficiencies in my earlier post, but it really will not make the Earth-shattering difference you seem to imply is obvious.

Indeed, we observe clouds of vapour at the center of the ~10-m asteroid (scaled from the bolts) destroyed at 1:08:26. Easily 10% of the asteroid disappears, indicating a vape energy of at least a terajoule. Even this figure is only a lower limit, but certainly shows that the ICS figures are quite reasonable.

If you are telling me a large part of the asteroid blister was vaporized you are smoking something. Watch the scene, watch the fragments methodically (and there are a lot of very *solid*, very not glowing fragments) spread apart leaving the majority of the asteroid un-touched. The missing 10% you refere to is made up of fragments, not superheated gasses!! It is obvious!!
Additionally, using your example, one TJ would do far more visible damage to that asteroid. If the shot pumped 1 TJ into the asteroid in the time frame, ~1/24 second, that is ~24 TW. That would heat up a significant part of the target quite rapidly, and result in a devestating, powerful explosion caused by rapidly expanding gasses. Even if only a tenth of that initial energy managed to affect the main asteroid, that is still 5 times the required minimum to crater the entire asteroid Just how inefficient were you thinking here? I mean really

Your analysis also neglects the many dozens of flak shots that hit within two meters; I counted over 100 from 1:08:33 to 1:08:44 alone - the Slave-I is firing more than 1 shot per frame at this point!!! At two meters, the blast will hit the fighter with about 10%-30% of its yield (depending on orientation), meaning the fighter absorbed the equivalent of about 20 direct hits.

I won't argue here, I based the ROF from Wong's analysis, as I don't remember what I came up with a few months ago, but it is not really relevant: A) Fine, his ROF is even higher, great, even more credibility to the idea Fett dialed down the juice to get that kind of fire spray. B) So the fighter took more hits, whoopdeedo. Each hit still bled through the shield rating, so whatever the wattage Slave-I was flying around, it was higher than the shield rating. If a phaser has a wattage higher than the shield's, it will penetrate. It is simple, really.

In summary, your lower limit figure, which is based on cratering energy of a fraction of an asteroid, neglects heating/vapourization altoghether and vastly underestimates the shots absorbed by the fighter, is wholly inadequate to override the ICS figures for the Slave-I weapons, much less the Jedi Starfighter figures

In my summary,
yes, I ignored the ineffiency involved in heating an iron asteroid to produce a mechanical effect. Sorry , I did not think it would be necessary to point out how little this would go towards bridging the gap between 2 kt and an effective 0.00055 kt (go ahead, multiply this minimum by what you think the inefficiency should be...3, 5, 7? Get my drift yet?) but I realize I should have, if just for the sake of thoroughness.
I claim Slave-I was firing at (roughly)</= 1/500 of its firepower as stated in the ICS, I do not claim it cannot fire at its stated power.
I claim that low to mid-range GW energies bled through the Jedi Starfighters shields, and I extrapolate this to claim it is unlikely an X-Wing, only a little bigger and maybie ~20 year more advanced, can carry low to mid-range (or higher) TW range shields. Three orders of magnitude increase just seems... unlikely
Furthur, I mean no disrespect to Saxton, while I do no believe his firepower figures match the movie, he had production drawings and concepts to work with rather than a finished movie, and I enjoy his work and the thought that went into it.

[Connor MacLeod]

The Defiant is entirely a red herring. As repeatedly stated the PPCs are fixed axis weapons. Trek beam phasers are not aimed in a traditional sense. They are not turrets, they are emission points that for some reason can fire in any LOS direction. PPCs are cannons firing from an established weapon behind it. Quite different.

I pointed out examples in Wayne's clip that show they clearly can at least fire in convergent and non-convergent mode, and noted others that were there. AGain, I ask you are you saying I am lying or imagining things, or are you just deciding to ignore me because you simply cannot condescend to honestly address my argument?

The issue with the Runabout is also a red herring. Its been repeatedly shown that in shuttle type vehicles those weapons must be manualy aimed. The Delta Flyer is not such a vehicle because it was built with combat in mind. It has 8 phaser arrays around giving it coverage at every possible angle.

And this is established how?

I will point out my questions about what ranges this applies at were ignored, as well as the other points I brought up. Apparently my analytical method is not thorough enough to warrant an honest response to. Thank you very much for the insult.

[The Dude]

I was not aware I claimed this, I pointed out this does not rule out the ability of Slave-I to turn up the juice, it merely points out that for whatever reason (and I suggested the high rate of fire as a reason) the juice was not turned up. Clear?

OK. I'll come back to this...

Granted, yes, heating must occur in order to produce mechanical effects, but not orders of magnitude more heating for a mechanical effect.

Not just heating, but vapourization. No vapourization = no force coupling = no blowing apart of the asteroid. In either case, the difference obviously is orders of magnitude, since each percent of the asteroid vapourized represents hundreds of gigajoules.

If you are telling me a large part of the asteroid blister was vaporized you are smoking something. Watch the scene, watch the fragments methodically (and there are a lot of very *solid*, very not glowing fragments) spread apart leaving the majority of the asteroid un-touched. The missing 10% you refere to is made up of fragments, not superheated gasses!! It is obvious!!

Are we talking about the same scene? 1:08:26 of AOTC. A substantial portion of the center of the asteroid disappears in a puff of vapour.

Additionally, using your example, one TJ would do far more visible damage to that asteroid.

Since 1 TJ would vapourize less than 3% of the asteroid at 100% efficiency, this is blatantly incorrect.

In my summary, yes, I ignored the ineffiency involved in heating an iron asteroid to produce a mechanical effect.

This is not a minor error, seeing as how it represents orders of magnitude more energy than the resulting fragmentation considered in isolation.

I claim that low to mid-range GW energies bled through the Jedi Starfighters shields, and I extrapolate this to claim it is unlikely an X-, only a little bigger and maybe ~20 year more advanced, can carry low to mid-range (or higher) TW range shields.

That is inconsistent with observations from AOTC, where each shot from Slave-I cannot reasonably be less than hundreds of GJ and is likely in excess of 1TJ.

Were Slave-I's guns dialled down in order to increase the firing rate? Possibly, although the notion that he dialled them down by the several orders of magnitude you suggest is neither logical (it implies that he could fire the guns less than once per minute at full yield) nor consistent with the performance detailed above.

[Master of Ossus]

The Defiant is entirely a red herring. As repeatedly stated the PPCs are fixed axis weapons. Trek beam phasers are not aimed in a traditional sense. They are not turrets, they are emission points that for some reason can fire in any LOS direction. PPCs are cannons firing from an established weapon behind it. Quite different.

The issue with the Runabout is also a red herring. Its been repeatedly shown that in shuttle type vehicles those weapons must be manualy aimed. The Delta Flyer is not such a vehicle because it was built with combat in mind. It has 8 phaser arrays around giving it coverage at every possible angle.

Alyeska, did you or did you not state:

Go ahead. It won't do jack shit. There is exactly ONE clip of a Starfleet ship missing in [Trekmiss.avi].

Are the Defiant and the runabout Federation starships?

Go fuck yourself Poe. I've never made any claim beyond Beam phasers. Al your doing is deluding yourself into thinking your clever with these word games which are meaningless. BTW, I already factored in every single instance of missing with that 99% figure. You can find exactly 4 examples of Starships missing and 2 examples of shuttle level ships missing. This is out of litteraly hundreds of examples of weapons fire.

Your story has changed over the course of the thread, Alyeska. You can't claim one thing and then claim rebuttals to that are red herrings by changing your position.

Now, your latest position (which is significantly revised since you first entered the thread) claims a number of things that have not yet been proven:

1. Runabouts require manual targetting, but the Delta Flier has a computer controlling its weapons fire.

2. Pulse-fire weapons, such as the Defiant's systems and torpedoes, cannot be used to gauge starship accuracy, even though they use UFP computer control systems.

3. Your last post alternately claims that:

There is only one of these examples, its a pop-up phaser system that comes from the runabout pads. There were no pop-up torpedoes that Starfleet installed.

There were no popup phaser banks, only torpedo launchers. And yes, they were always there.

Alyeska, you are being blatantly self-contradictory in this thread. I suggest you review your primary evidence. It might also be useful if you documented how you arrived at your conclusion of "99% beam weapon accuracy," since that's the one you now present (or is it? You recently claimed "90% is probably more accurate). Tell me, how did you arrive at this conclusion, since it keeps changing? Why are your conclusions changing, if you had conducted all of this research earlier in the thread?