Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate

SWvST: the subject of the main site.

Moderator: Vympel

Post Reply
User avatar
willburns84
Padawan Learner
Posts: 351
Joined: 2002-07-25 07:17pm
Location: Comforting Ritsuko Akagi.

Post by willburns84 »

[quote="Sovereign"]
An alliance of all the ST species could happen. The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans were mortal enemies for almost 200 years, 2151-2369, and they joined against the Dominion. With the Cardassians crippled, they will join the Allies. The Gorn are allies to the feds. The Tholians Would help out the Feds.quote]


Uhhh, what? The only place where I've seen Gorn & Tholians as being allies to the Federation is in... Oh... Star Fleet Battles. I don't think you mean to go that route, Sovereign. If so, then let's talk about the Interstellar Concordium, Kzinti Hegemony, Lyran Star Empire, Hydran Kingdom, the Andromedans, and more... 8)

Admittedly, I like Star Fleet Battles over the Dominion-War era series, but, SFB isn't part of the debate here.
"Fleet admirals have it made. They only have to worry about the success of their subordinates, their Moff, and guys whose name beings with Lord."
-Captain Seledrood (deceased)
"Iron within! Iron without!"
User avatar
Sovereign
Village Idiot
Posts: 207
Joined: 2002-10-29 06:49pm
Location: Flint Michigan United States
Contact:

Post by Sovereign »

I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.

The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.

The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
User avatar
Cpt_Frank
Official SD.Net Evil Warsie Asshole
Posts: 3652
Joined: 2002-07-03 03:05am
Location: the black void
Contact:

Post by Cpt_Frank »

The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps.
oh no not this one again

several possibilities for them to make maps:
1.Scan the aerea with long range sensors which have several hundred ly range, jump to outer edge of range, scan there again.
That way you'll be able to map out the quadrant within several weeks
2.Send out probe droids
3.Use ordinary OPTICAL TELESCOPES like the ones we can build today-you need nothing more to make a map!
Image
Supermod
Crazy_Vasey
Jedi Council Member
Posts: 1571
Joined: 2002-07-13 12:56pm

Post by Crazy_Vasey »

Sovereign wrote:I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.

The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human.
Yeah it saved Alderaan didn't it? :roll:
User avatar
Cpt_Frank
Official SD.Net Evil Warsie Asshole
Posts: 3652
Joined: 2002-07-03 03:05am
Location: the black void
Contact:

Post by Cpt_Frank »

The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation.
WTF? They can take them virtually without effort, so what's stopping them from attacking and conquering the federation? NOTHING! They get a beach head in another galaxy virtually for FREE!
An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
Time? Yeah roughly 24 hours - one week after the discovery of the wormhole depending on how quickly they decide to invade.
Just dispatch a fleet the size of a sector fleet, 20 vessels are more than enough to bring down the alpha quad (of course to garrison the territory there are more troops necessary.
The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
Image
Supermod
User avatar
Sovereign
Village Idiot
Posts: 207
Joined: 2002-10-29 06:49pm
Location: Flint Michigan United States
Contact:

Post by Sovereign »

Cpt_Frank wrote:
The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.
User avatar
Cpt_Frank
Official SD.Net Evil Warsie Asshole
Posts: 3652
Joined: 2002-07-03 03:05am
Location: the black void
Contact:

Post by Cpt_Frank »

The Rebels did not defeat the Empire. They defeated the Emperor, and the Empire self-destructed.
The first Death Star was destroyed because of a design flaw. The second DS was destroyed because it was unfinished. The Executor class command ship wouldn't have been destroyed if it wasn't for the DS's gravity attracting it.
You have a misconception of the Rebels: they were never able to fight the Empire openly. They fought a constant guerillia war. When they gave up this tactic, at the battle of Endor, they were about to lose, and they would have lost this battle if it hadn't been for the Emperor's arrogance and Vader's treason.

Never, ever, had the rebels the numbers or the material to fight an open war with the Empire.
Image
Supermod
User avatar
Anarchist Bunny
Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
Posts: 5458
Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
Contact:

Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Sovereign wrote:I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.

The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
Maybe, maybe not, but for the purpose of the debate we assume that they'll try to kill each other that they would fight. The Empire is very oppressive and warmaking, eventually the Feds would disagree and then they'd be fragged.
Sovereign wrote:The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
They could scan-microjump until they got to civilization and took the maps, one SD with a place to refuel could take the AQ so it wouldn't be to much of a drain on the Empire to take one ship away.
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Image
User avatar
Anarchist Bunny
Foul, Cruel, and Bad-Tempered Rodent
Posts: 5458
Joined: 2002-07-12 02:08am
Contact:

Post by Anarchist Bunny »

Maybe, maybe not, but for the purpose of the debate we assume that they'll try to kill each other that they would fight.
Wow, that came out garbled.[/quote]
//This Line Blank as of 7/15/07\\
Ornithology Subdirector: SD.net Dept. of Biological Sciences
Wiilite
Image
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Sovereign wrote: The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
Do you have any evidence that the Empire is more likely to make peace with a government made up of mostly humans than it is to make peace with a group made up of aliens? The Empire, after all, is at peace with the Hutts, but at a de facto state of war with the Hapans. More importantly, the Empire can conquer the Federation virtually without effort. The Federation occupies three Imperial SECTORS. The Alpha Quadrant, which is devoid of powerful alien races willing to oppose the Empire, could be conquered relatively easily and would increase the Empire's size by about a third. The natural resources available to the Empire from their new holding would almost necessitate an Imperial war against the Federation and the entire AQ, though the time table for this is unclear.
The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
Thrawn charted and conquered the Unknown Regions (the size of the entire AQ) with a fairly small and insignificant force in less than a decade. The Yuuzhan Vong mapped out huge portions of the SW Galaxy in the same amount of time (though their forces are far more significant than Thrawn's). The Hapans, despite never leaving their little cluster for several thousand years, were able to move a fleet from Hapes to Coruscant, and then to Dathomir (though probably with NR assistance, for the last jump). Clearly only very large gravitational distortions must be mapped out for hyperspace travel to be possible, and this can be done with relative ease by the denizens of the SW Galaxy.

You seem to be falling for the fallacy that either an entire section of a Galaxy is mapped, or it is not and therefore hyperdrives are useless. Hyperdrives function perfectly even in a complete absence of maps, however the risk of hitting a large object in hyperspace is fairly large. Microjumping starfighters can rapidly map out areas of space, and expendable probe droids can almost certainly be used in this manner. In addition, remember that a Jedi Knight or a Force-sensitive individual does not need a map in order to use hyperspace with relative impunity. Such individuals can even "sneak" into areas that are completely uncharted in navicomputers. Usually this tactic is unused, as the dedication of a Jedi/Sith/Force sensitive to an invasion of the AQ would represent a considerable investment, but it would be highly possible for such an individual to rapidly move a fleet from place to place in the AQ during an invasion.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

The Empire eventually turned Hapes into a client state/protectorate. Did anyone really think they were resisting the Empire? They snatched up those ISDs when Palpatine was killed at Endor and the Imperial power structure collapsed. They were permitted to remain insular and isolated and allowed to keep their inferior navy to maintain their xenophobic border policies.

This is why the Queen Mother was such a bitch. She blamed the pacifists/appeasers in her court and family of being responsible for Hapes' being reduced to a puppet of Palpatine and herself being reduced to a figurehead. Actually, she's completely wrong, the decadent and snooty Hapans with their inferior technology would've squashed flat and quite a few Hapan maidens would've had to find work in brothels :twisted: and others would find themselves part of the "support staff" for an Imperial Admiral or Moff :twisted:.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Sovereign wrote:I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.

The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
So was the Rebel Alliance
The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway?
That just means they wipe out the Borg or the Dominion first, then use any maps they dig out from them to take out the feds :twisted: Besides, a quick jump above the galactic plane, then one down on the other side and you are in feddie territory without needing maps.
An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
Why? The alliance was nothing.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Ender
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 11323
Joined: 2002-07-30 11:12pm
Location: Illinois

Post by Ender »

Sovereign wrote:So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.
And you know what? Those are just drops in the ocean. The deat of Palpatine and Vader doomed the Empire, not Endor itself. The loss of over a million men at Yavin didn't slow them down. They just built another damn superweapon to replace that one, and they would go on and do the same thing after Endor had the Empire not collapsed. A SSD can be built in, what does Starships of the galaxy say, 18 weeks? (Off the top of my head, don't recall exactly). Men and materials losses caused by the Rebels didn't hurt the Empire alot. They had the resources to recover.
بيرني كان سيفوز
*
Nuclear Navy Warwolf
*
in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro
*
ipsa scientia potestas est
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Sovereign wrote:
Cpt_Frank wrote:
The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.
Actually, it's millions of men, but the Empire's loss at Endor was the Emperor himself. Had he not been killed, the victory would have meant virtually nothing. You may have noticed that the Empire built an 800km diameter DS IN SECRET in six months. That represents an astonishing level of industrialization, and indicates that the losses of the first DS, DSII, and SSD were almost insignficant, except in terms of personnel losses. The ships could easily be replaced.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

One question: where does the "six month" figure for the Death Star II's construction rate come from?
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Illuminatus Primus
All Seeing Eye
Posts: 15774
Joined: 2002-10-12 02:52pm
Location: Gainesville, Florida, USA
Contact:

Post by Illuminatus Primus »

Palpatine's defeat was so important because Palpatine deliberately constructed a political structure that would self-destruct the Empire without him. He created an Empire that could only survive with himself as Emperor. His genius is unmatched.
"You know what the problem with Hollywood is. They make shit. Unbelievable. Unremarkable. Shit." - Gabriel Shear, Swordfish

"This statement, in its utterly clueless hubristic stupidity, cannot be improved upon. I merely quote it in admiration of its perfection." - Garibaldi in reply to an incredibly stupid post.

The Fifth Illuminatus Primus | Warsie | Skeptical Empiricist | Florida Gator | Sustainability Advocate | Libertarian Socialist |
Image
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Illuminatus Primus wrote:One question: where does the "six month" figure for the Death Star II's construction rate come from?
Oops, my mistake. The upper limit for the DS's completion (from the Tales from the Bounty Hunters, which mentions the beginning of the project) to RotJ was 1 year. It is unclear whether that is one of our years or a SW Galactic standard year, but the difference is tiny. :oops: :oops:
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
Shinova
Emperor's Hand
Posts: 10193
Joined: 2002-10-03 08:53pm
Location: LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

Post by Shinova »

The DS1 was 900km, but wasn't the DS2 something like 9,000km?
What's her bust size!?

It's over NINE THOUSAAAAAAAAAAND!!!!!!!!!
User avatar
Master of Ossus
Darkest Knight
Posts: 18213
Joined: 2002-07-11 01:35am
Location: California

Post by Master of Ossus »

Shinova wrote:The DS1 was 900km, but wasn't the DS2 something like 9,000km?
DSII was 900 km in diameter.
"Sometimes I think you WANT us to fail." "Shut up, just shut up!" -Two Guys from Kabul

Latinum Star Recipient; Hacker's Cross Award Winner

"one soler flar can vapririze the planit or malt the nickl in lass than millasacit" -Bagara1000

"Happiness is just a Flaming Moe away."
User avatar
XaLEv
Lore Monkey
Posts: 5372
Joined: 2002-07-04 06:35am

Post by XaLEv »

Shinova wrote:The DS1 was 900km, but wasn't the DS2 something like 9,000km?
DS1 was 160 km, DS2 was 900.
「かかっ―」
User avatar
Sovereign
Village Idiot
Posts: 207
Joined: 2002-10-29 06:49pm
Location: Flint Michigan United States
Contact:

Post by Sovereign »

I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...

Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.

Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.

Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!

Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.

The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
User avatar
NecronLord
Harbinger of Doom
Harbinger of Doom
Posts: 27384
Joined: 2002-07-07 06:30am
Location: The Lost City

Post by NecronLord »

Sovereign wrote:I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...

Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.
about umm a million

Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.

Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!
Tie fighters are even smaller can be made in less time, are expendable and can carry GCS class weapons

Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.
Kaut Coruscant Rendii Biblringi the list goes on, and on and on

The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
RTFC. or indeed Watch AOTC, the empire are used to shape-shifters
Superior Moderator - BotB - HAB [Drill Instructor]-Writer- Stardestroyer.net's resident Star-God.
"We believe in the systematic understanding of the physical world through observation and experimentation, argument and debate and most of all freedom of will." ~ Stargate: The Ark of Truth
User avatar
neoolong
Dead Sexy 'Shroom
Posts: 13180
Joined: 2002-08-29 10:01pm
Location: California

Post by neoolong »

Sovereign wrote:I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...

Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.

Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.

Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!

Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.

The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
And you pulled this from where?

Where did it say that the Gamma Quadrant Dominion were unaffected by the war? Remember the reinforcements came from the Gamma Quadrant and were destroyed, somewhere near the last episode I think. Besides, the original forces came from the Gamma Quadrant.

Where is it said that Odo and the Founders are working together? Why would he help them? He doesn't even like them.

Why would the Dominion help out the Alpha Quadrant? Just because Odo asks? Remember, Odo doesn't consider himself a Founder, despite what that one Weyoun clone felt.

You give adjectives like fast and powerful, but do you have any actual data on their strengths that show how powerful they are.

I think you assume to much.
Member of the BotM. @( !.! )@
User avatar
Spanky The Dolphin
Mammy Two-Shoes
Posts: 30776
Joined: 2002-07-05 05:45pm
Location: Reykjavík, Iceland (not really)

Post by Spanky The Dolphin »

This guy is a blind moron.

Hey, Moron, I want you to answer me this personally:

Why the hell did you use a production photo as part of your argument?
Image
I believe in a sign of Zeta.

[BOTM|WG|JL|Mecha Maniacs|Pax Cybertronia|Veteran of the Psychic Wars|Eva Expert]

"And besides, who cares if a monster destroys Australia?"
User avatar
neoolong
Dead Sexy 'Shroom
Posts: 13180
Joined: 2002-08-29 10:01pm
Location: California

Post by neoolong »

Oh yeah, is the wormhole still closed? How are any Dominion forces going to get to the Alpha Quadrant if they're stuck in the Gamma Quadrant? Magic?
Member of the BotM. @( !.! )@
Post Reply