Borg/Species 8472/Empire Debate
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- willburns84
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[quote="Sovereign"]
An alliance of all the ST species could happen. The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans were mortal enemies for almost 200 years, 2151-2369, and they joined against the Dominion. With the Cardassians crippled, they will join the Allies. The Gorn are allies to the feds. The Tholians Would help out the Feds.quote]
Uhhh, what? The only place where I've seen Gorn & Tholians as being allies to the Federation is in... Oh... Star Fleet Battles. I don't think you mean to go that route, Sovereign. If so, then let's talk about the Interstellar Concordium, Kzinti Hegemony, Lyran Star Empire, Hydran Kingdom, the Andromedans, and more...
Admittedly, I like Star Fleet Battles over the Dominion-War era series, but, SFB isn't part of the debate here.
An alliance of all the ST species could happen. The Federation, Klingons, and Romulans were mortal enemies for almost 200 years, 2151-2369, and they joined against the Dominion. With the Cardassians crippled, they will join the Allies. The Gorn are allies to the feds. The Tholians Would help out the Feds.quote]
Uhhh, what? The only place where I've seen Gorn & Tholians as being allies to the Federation is in... Oh... Star Fleet Battles. I don't think you mean to go that route, Sovereign. If so, then let's talk about the Interstellar Concordium, Kzinti Hegemony, Lyran Star Empire, Hydran Kingdom, the Andromedans, and more...
Admittedly, I like Star Fleet Battles over the Dominion-War era series, but, SFB isn't part of the debate here.
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I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.
The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
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oh no not this one againThe Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps.
several possibilities for them to make maps:
1.Scan the aerea with long range sensors which have several hundred ly range, jump to outer edge of range, scan there again.
That way you'll be able to map out the quadrant within several weeks
2.Send out probe droids
3.Use ordinary OPTICAL TELESCOPES like the ones we can build today-you need nothing more to make a map!
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WTF? They can take them virtually without effort, so what's stopping them from attacking and conquering the federation? NOTHING! They get a beach head in another galaxy virtually for FREE!The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation.
Time? Yeah roughly 24 hours - one week after the discovery of the wormhole depending on how quickly they decide to invade.An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
Just dispatch a fleet the size of a sector fleet, 20 vessels are more than enough to bring down the alpha quad (of course to garrison the territory there are more troops necessary.
The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
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So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.Cpt_Frank wrote:The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
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The Rebels did not defeat the Empire. They defeated the Emperor, and the Empire self-destructed.
The first Death Star was destroyed because of a design flaw. The second DS was destroyed because it was unfinished. The Executor class command ship wouldn't have been destroyed if it wasn't for the DS's gravity attracting it.
You have a misconception of the Rebels: they were never able to fight the Empire openly. They fought a constant guerillia war. When they gave up this tactic, at the battle of Endor, they were about to lose, and they would have lost this battle if it hadn't been for the Emperor's arrogance and Vader's treason.
Never, ever, had the rebels the numbers or the material to fight an open war with the Empire.
The first Death Star was destroyed because of a design flaw. The second DS was destroyed because it was unfinished. The Executor class command ship wouldn't have been destroyed if it wasn't for the DS's gravity attracting it.
You have a misconception of the Rebels: they were never able to fight the Empire openly. They fought a constant guerillia war. When they gave up this tactic, at the battle of Endor, they were about to lose, and they would have lost this battle if it hadn't been for the Emperor's arrogance and Vader's treason.
Never, ever, had the rebels the numbers or the material to fight an open war with the Empire.
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Maybe, maybe not, but for the purpose of the debate we assume that they'll try to kill each other that they would fight. The Empire is very oppressive and warmaking, eventually the Feds would disagree and then they'd be fragged.Sovereign wrote:I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.
The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
They could scan-microjump until they got to civilization and took the maps, one SD with a place to refuel could take the AQ so it wouldn't be to much of a drain on the Empire to take one ship away.Sovereign wrote:The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
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Do you have any evidence that the Empire is more likely to make peace with a government made up of mostly humans than it is to make peace with a group made up of aliens? The Empire, after all, is at peace with the Hutts, but at a de facto state of war with the Hapans. More importantly, the Empire can conquer the Federation virtually without effort. The Federation occupies three Imperial SECTORS. The Alpha Quadrant, which is devoid of powerful alien races willing to oppose the Empire, could be conquered relatively easily and would increase the Empire's size by about a third. The natural resources available to the Empire from their new holding would almost necessitate an Imperial war against the Federation and the entire AQ, though the time table for this is unclear.Sovereign wrote: The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
Thrawn charted and conquered the Unknown Regions (the size of the entire AQ) with a fairly small and insignificant force in less than a decade. The Yuuzhan Vong mapped out huge portions of the SW Galaxy in the same amount of time (though their forces are far more significant than Thrawn's). The Hapans, despite never leaving their little cluster for several thousand years, were able to move a fleet from Hapes to Coruscant, and then to Dathomir (though probably with NR assistance, for the last jump). Clearly only very large gravitational distortions must be mapped out for hyperspace travel to be possible, and this can be done with relative ease by the denizens of the SW Galaxy.The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway? An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
You seem to be falling for the fallacy that either an entire section of a Galaxy is mapped, or it is not and therefore hyperdrives are useless. Hyperdrives function perfectly even in a complete absence of maps, however the risk of hitting a large object in hyperspace is fairly large. Microjumping starfighters can rapidly map out areas of space, and expendable probe droids can almost certainly be used in this manner. In addition, remember that a Jedi Knight or a Force-sensitive individual does not need a map in order to use hyperspace with relative impunity. Such individuals can even "sneak" into areas that are completely uncharted in navicomputers. Usually this tactic is unused, as the dedication of a Jedi/Sith/Force sensitive to an invasion of the AQ would represent a considerable investment, but it would be highly possible for such an individual to rapidly move a fleet from place to place in the AQ during an invasion.
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The Empire eventually turned Hapes into a client state/protectorate. Did anyone really think they were resisting the Empire? They snatched up those ISDs when Palpatine was killed at Endor and the Imperial power structure collapsed. They were permitted to remain insular and isolated and allowed to keep their inferior navy to maintain their xenophobic border policies.
This is why the Queen Mother was such a bitch. She blamed the pacifists/appeasers in her court and family of being responsible for Hapes' being reduced to a puppet of Palpatine and herself being reduced to a figurehead. Actually, she's completely wrong, the decadent and snooty Hapans with their inferior technology would've squashed flat and quite a few Hapan maidens would've had to find work in brothels and others would find themselves part of the "support staff" for an Imperial Admiral or Moff .
This is why the Queen Mother was such a bitch. She blamed the pacifists/appeasers in her court and family of being responsible for Hapes' being reduced to a puppet of Palpatine and herself being reduced to a figurehead. Actually, she's completely wrong, the decadent and snooty Hapans with their inferior technology would've squashed flat and quite a few Hapan maidens would've had to find work in brothels and others would find themselves part of the "support staff" for an Imperial Admiral or Moff .
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So was the Rebel AllianceSovereign wrote:I was rethinking this last night and I figured this out.
The Empire, if making contact with the Milky Way before the Rebels, would make peace with the Federation. This would happen only because the Federations Population is mostly Human. Of course the Federation would disagree with the War against the Rebel Alliance.
That just means they wipe out the Borg or the Dominion first, then use any maps they dig out from them to take out the feds Besides, a quick jump above the galactic plane, then one down on the other side and you are in feddie territory without needing maps.The Empire could not just come in and attack without any knowlage of our space. They would need maps. I am sure the Ferangi could give them some, but who said they could find any or appear in this part of the Galaxy anyway?
Why? The alliance was nothing.An invasion would take time, especually with the Alliance on the other side causing problems.
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And you know what? Those are just drops in the ocean. The deat of Palpatine and Vader doomed the Empire, not Endor itself. The loss of over a million men at Yavin didn't slow them down. They just built another damn superweapon to replace that one, and they would go on and do the same thing after Endor had the Empire not collapsed. A SSD can be built in, what does Starships of the galaxy say, 18 weeks? (Off the top of my head, don't recall exactly). Men and materials losses caused by the Rebels didn't hurt the Empire alot. They had the resources to recover.Sovereign wrote:So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.
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Actually, it's millions of men, but the Empire's loss at Endor was the Emperor himself. Had he not been killed, the victory would have meant virtually nothing. You may have noticed that the Empire built an 800km diameter DS IN SECRET in six months. That represents an astonishing level of industrialization, and indicates that the losses of the first DS, DSII, and SSD were almost insignficant, except in terms of personnel losses. The ships could easily be replaced.Sovereign wrote:Cpt_Frank wrote:So unnoticed that the Rebels destroyed the Empire. Thats two Death Stars a Super Star Destroyer and hundreds of thousands of Men.The Rebel alliance at home is irrelevant, the number of ships they'd need to dispatch is such a miniscule fraction it won't be noticed (hell even if they send 1000 ships it'd hardly be noticed) and an ISD can be produced within several weeks (4-6 IIRC) so they could even go and produce a completely new invasion fleet.
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One question: where does the "six month" figure for the Death Star II's construction rate come from?
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Palpatine's defeat was so important because Palpatine deliberately constructed a political structure that would self-destruct the Empire without him. He created an Empire that could only survive with himself as Emperor. His genius is unmatched.
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Oops, my mistake. The upper limit for the DS's completion (from the Tales from the Bounty Hunters, which mentions the beginning of the project) to RotJ was 1 year. It is unclear whether that is one of our years or a SW Galactic standard year, but the difference is tiny.Illuminatus Primus wrote:One question: where does the "six month" figure for the Death Star II's construction rate come from?
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DSII was 900 km in diameter.Shinova wrote:The DS1 was 900km, but wasn't the DS2 something like 9,000km?
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I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...
Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.
Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.
Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!
Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.
The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.
Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.
Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!
Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.
The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
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about umm a millionSovereign wrote:I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...
Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.
Tie fighters are even smaller can be made in less time, are expendable and can carry GCS class weapons
Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.
Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!
Kaut Coruscant Rendii Biblringi the list goes on, and on and on
Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.
RTFC. or indeed Watch AOTC, the empire are used to shape-shifters
The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
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And you pulled this from where?Sovereign wrote:I Think I will add the Dominion in this, since I have just read up on them. The Dominion in the Gamma Quadrent were practicly uneffected by the War In The Alpha Quadrent, since the Wormhole was closed. Now that the War has ended it is a possibility that a peace or Alliance may be formed. Odo, saved the Lead Founder and brought peace within, the Dominion. Now that Odo and the Founder control the Vorta and the Vorta control the Jem'Hadar, then the Dominion is now unwarlike. If the Alpha Quadrent was in danger than the Dominion would help out. I might remind people of how big the Dominion fleet is...
Dominion Battleships are 4000m in length and are heavily armed and armored. A fleet of these could take on any Star Destroyer, even a Super Star Destroyer, if there was enough of them.
Dominion Battlecruisers are smalled, but just as powerful, with more maneuverability.
Dominion Fighters, thousands can be made in a short time, they are fast and powerful!
Dominion Ship Yards are fast at producing ships like these, a direct confrontation like this would be futile.
The Founders shape shifting ability would most definatly prove useful against the Empire as well.
Where did it say that the Gamma Quadrant Dominion were unaffected by the war? Remember the reinforcements came from the Gamma Quadrant and were destroyed, somewhere near the last episode I think. Besides, the original forces came from the Gamma Quadrant.
Where is it said that Odo and the Founders are working together? Why would he help them? He doesn't even like them.
Why would the Dominion help out the Alpha Quadrant? Just because Odo asks? Remember, Odo doesn't consider himself a Founder, despite what that one Weyoun clone felt.
You give adjectives like fast and powerful, but do you have any actual data on their strengths that show how powerful they are.
I think you assume to much.
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