Species 8472 vs The Galactic Empire

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-02 03:07pm

TheDarkling wrote:The nature of the portals seems to be that they close after the ships have transitted through them, the ones in the northwest passage were in constant use so they stayed open but in using hit and run tactics against the empire portals arent going to stay open for very long.

You can't have it both ways man, either they come out of fluidic space at a distince from the target and continue on their way with the probability that the Empire can detect them on their sensors......

OR

They open up a portal at the target, thus enableing any avalible ship in the defensive shceme of the target planet an oppertunity to enter the portal and attack targets of oppertunity or support ships, or reinforcments, or even just to cut off the lines of retreat.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-02 03:08pm

TheDarkling wrote:They did exactly that - opening a portal in orbit appeared, wasted the planet and where gone again inside 60 seconds.

I would also like you to explain why you think the rebels display less military tech than rim worlds (obviously important worlds will have imperial grade defenses but other worlds wont necessarily).

I have other things to do I will be back later.

Not nessecarily less tech, but lower resources than a large defended world.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-12-02 03:34pm

TheDarkling wrote:They did exactly that - opening a portal in orbit appeared, wasted the planet and where gone again inside 60 seconds.

I would also like you to explain why you think the rebels display less military tech than rim worlds (obviously important worlds will have imperial grade defenses but other worlds wont necessarily).

I have other things to do I will be back later.

How do you know they were gone within 60 seconds. All we see are the ships headed straight for the planet they were in the process of destroying. For all we know, they were destroyed by the exploding planet along with the two cubes.

As for whether the empire can open the portals, Voyager's deflector dish was NOT designed to open up portals into fluidic space yet it was able to anyways with some funky partical beam programmed by 7 of 9. It doesn't seem to be that hard.

Post by **Ghost Rider** » 2002-12-02 03:39pm

I know...it's because the Empire cannot Technobabble as well as T of A thus they'll never be able to open a portal even though they have shown superior scanners as well as superior grasp of technology and science.

Gosh darn.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-02 03:42pm

Strange to find myself arguing with Darkling, but keep in mind that 7 of 9 opened that portal, not the Voyager crew. She knew how to make the modifications to do it because the Borg opened the portal in the first place. I'm not saying the Empire won't be able to do it, but it will take some time to figure it out.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-02 04:02pm

Even if it is only open for 60 seconds, thats enough time for a counter attack to approach and utilize the portal. I am not saying that every single time a group of S8.... come into the SW universe a fleet of stardestroyers will go through the portal and reek havoc.

However, after the first few attacks you have to believe that the Empire will catch on to the tactics and start preparing contigencies for the enemies attacks. Sooner or later, theater shields will be set up over strategic or military targets on planets. Later, if the S8 are not stopped, planetary shields would be ran at low power or even full power to protect valuable instillations and facillities.

Orbital weapons and fighter goups along with defending ships in the area would eventually know what the portals look like, if any kind of indication of their opening would give away the locations of the soon to be open portals, and develope a defensive scheme to protect the assests in system.

Once again, a trekky wants the Empire to just sit there as ships pop out of nowhere and attack, or when they anticipate the pop out attack then the trekkies can move the portal just far enough to confuse the poor undertrained Imperials.........Yeah, right.

2000AD · Post by **2000AD** » 2002-12-02 04:55pm

Just wondering. Going by the name Fluidic space i assume that this is space that is fluid. What effect would a seismic charge (like the one Jango uses in AoTC) or other large shockwave causing weapon have n this space?

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-12-02 05:21pm

beyond hope wrote:Strange to find myself arguing with Darkling, but keep in mind that 7 of 9 opened that portal, not the Voyager crew. She knew how to make the modifications to do it because the Borg opened the portal in the first place. I'm not saying the Empire won't be able to do it, but it will take some time to figure it out.

So what?

The POINT is she did it with VOYAGER'S equipment even though the ship was NEVER designed to do such things in the first place. Therefore, opening up the portals CAN'T be that difficult.

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-02 06:05pm

Darth Servo wrote:So what? The POINT is she did it with VOYAGER'S equipment even though the ship was NEVER designed to do such things in the first place. Therefore, opening up the portals CAN'T be that difficult.

The POINT, which you seem slow to grasp, is that thanks to the hive mind 7 of 9 knew EXACTLY how that portal was opened in the first place and how to open another. I'm sure that it is pretty easy for Borg, WHO CAME UP WITH THE PORTAL IN THE FIRST PLACE, to use their knowledge of how they did it and how Federation systems work to duplicate the effect. So you're telling us "if the Borg can do it, it *must* be easy?" Did you engage your brain for a moment before you posted that?! The Empire does NOT have a group of Borg drones handy to build them a portal, so they're going to have to do it the hard way: they'll have to observe the portals that Species 8472s' ships make when they come through, and then figure out how to make a portal of their own. Not that I think they'll have many problems with Species 8472 in the mean time: I sincerely doubt that they've got the firepower to crack a planetary shield, and I just as sincerely doubt that anything short of their planet-killer blast will hurt an Imperial capitol ship.

And for 2000AD, fluid is an *excellent* conductor of shock waves, better even than air. If the seismic charges are forming some sort of shock wave it'll *hurt* when they go off. Concussion missiles and proton torpedoes will as well.

Anarchist Bunny · Post by **Anarchist Bunny** » 2002-12-02 06:06pm

Darkling: The base on Hoth was able to detect The ISD's before they were in firing range, and this was just a small outpost. Also I believe that even if the base was on the opposite side of a planet they would still be able to detect them, or the Empire would of attacked them at that time. On any properly defended planet, even with out a fleet, they'd be able to detect the Bio-Ships and make them suck on 25-meter planetary defense cannons.

D.Turtle · Post by **D.Turtle** » 2002-12-02 06:36pm

About the raising of the shields:
The shield on Hoth was turned on, even before Vader could be informed, that they reached Hoth.

Jim Raynor · Post by **Jim Raynor** » 2002-12-02 07:17pm

Darkling, can you provide quotes about Mechis III not having shields, or that it had ancient defenses? Also, aren't planetary shields really just many smaller shields overlapping each other?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 07:22pm

D.Turtle: yes but it wasnt a planetary shield.

Most everyone else: Beyondhope is right you cant just assume the Imps have an ability they have never demonstrated or do they have transporters etc aswell?

anarchistbunny: They are going to jump into orbit sensors cant give advanced warning against that.

Knife:The imps dont have the ships and their low end ships (below SD level) probably couldnt take on fleets of bioships anyway and I do doubt ties having much luck.

Ghost Rider:Does the emipre have superior knowledge of science? the Imp built a toaster 25,000 years ago and over time have tweaked it so the toaster puts out 200 GT while the Feds in the space of 900 years go through about 10 totally seperate weapon technologies, Im also not over enthused with imperial sensors either.

Darth Servo: The deflector dish is built for everything - the thing fries eggs and also doubles as a juicer, as for if the ships were destroyed - if thats the standard MO obviously loss of the PK groups arent a big concern.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-02 07:24pm

Jim Raynor:Yes but that requires a degree of cordination not necessary in a singular shield (or a very small shield as was evident on Hoth), as for providing quotes im pretty sure I do in the thread I linked to if I didnt I will post quotes tomorrow, time for sleep now.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-12-02 07:32pm

beyond hope wrote:The POINT, which you seem slow to grasp, is that thanks to the hive mind 7 of 9 knew EXACTLY how that portal was opened in the first place and how to open another. I'm sure that it is pretty easy for Borg, WHO CAME UP WITH THE PORTAL IN THE FIRST PLACE, to use their knowledge of how they did it and how Federation systems work to duplicate the effect. So you're telling us "if the Borg can do it, it *must* be easy?"

IDIOT. Who cares who came up with it? Who cares if 7 of 9 programmed the info. It was still able to be done with a PRIMITIVE FEDERATION STARSHIP so it CAN'T be that difficult? I'm saying that the borg could do it using NOTHING BUT RELATIVELY PRIMITIVE FEDERATION TECHNOLOGY therefore, it CAN'T be that hard you moron!!!.

Did you engage your brain for a moment before you posted that?! The Empire does NOT have a group of Borg drones handy to build them a portal, so they're going to have to do it the hard way: they'll have to observe the portals that Species 8472s' ships make when they come through, and then figure out how to make a portal of their own.

My brain is quite active unlike your apparently nonfunctional one. They don't need a group of drones. Seven did it all by herself. All the imps need to do is CAPTURE ONE DRONE and download the information since the borg are INCAPABLE of voluntarily separating individual drones from the collective as established in BOBW.

Darth Servo · Post by **Darth Servo** » 2002-12-02 07:42pm

TheDarkling wrote:Darth Servo: The deflector dish is built for everything - the thing fries eggs and also doubles as a juicer,

Now whose inventing extra capabilities out of thin air?

So those incompetant Starfleet "engineers" (cough, cough) delibrately gave the thing the ability to open up rifts into another universe that they had never even heard of before?

I hope your comment was intended as a joke (even though its a bad one).

as for if the ships were destroyed - if thats the standard MO obviously loss of the PK groups arent a big concern.

The destruction of nine ships is nothing compared to the destruction of an entire planet, especially with its population and industrial base. And kamikazi attacks are quite common in Trek regardless of whether the respective governments considers the ships the last line of defense or worthless cannon fodder.

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 09:03pm

TheDarkling wrote:
Vympel: I have provided 7 or 8 pieces of evidence that point to my conclusion you have presented one vague opinion if you haavent got anything else to back up you claims about fluidic space I will accept your concession.

Maybe you should change your name to DarkStar?

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-02 09:07pm

You have failed to respond to any of my criticisms of your point- are you busy putting up a wall of ignroance?

Your argument consists of the following:

- Completely ignoring the existence of the North West Passage
- Optimistically interpreting vague dialog to extrapolate 'far away' to 'the other side of the Beta Quadrant' so as to jibe with what you want to be the case
- Believing that the crew of Voyager is omniscient, because they're afraid that S8472 might get to the Alpha Quadrant

beyond hope · Post by **beyond hope** » 2002-12-02 09:43pm

IDIOT. Who cares who came up with it? Who cares if 7 of 9 programmed the info. It was still able to be done with a PRIMITIVE FEDERATION STARSHIP so it CAN'T be that difficult? I'm saying that the borg could do it using NOTHING BUT RELATIVELY PRIMITIVE FEDERATION TECHNOLOGY therefore, it CAN'T be that hard you moron!!!.

I know this argument: I've seen it many times before, but usually it's coming from Trekkies who say "we'll be able to develop hyperdrive and 200 gigaton turbolasers right after we see them, because the Federation is *soooo* much better at science."

That's why I called you on this in the first place, I can't believe you're sinking to that level.

I'll explain this again: Voyager got through into "fluidic space" because they had Borg drones on board to refit the ship with Borg technology in order to open up the portal. The Borg could alter Voyager to do this because they're the ones who came up with the portal in the first place. They weren't inventing the portal on the spot: they already knew the technology required and just had to make it work on a Federation ship. Since they've assimilated Federation crewmembers before, they'd know what Federation technology is like and how they have to alter things to make it work.

My brain is quite active unlike your apparently nonfunctional one. They don't need a group of drones. Seven did it all by herself. All the imps need to do is CAPTURE ONE DRONE and download the information since the borg are INCAPABLE of voluntarily separating individual drones from the collective as established in BOBW.

That's assuming their incursions aren't happening in the home galaxy rather than the Trek galaxy. There aren't any borg laying around there to capture. That's also assuming (if we take "Imperial planet" to mean one in the Trek galaxy that the Empire has taken) that the Borg haven't been exterminated by the Empire yet, and also that the Empire knows that the Borg can open a portal to Species 8472's home dimension. If they don't have a Borg handy to show them how to make one, they have to figure out the mechanics of it themselves. There's no telling how long that could take. Then there's the unwarranted assumption that Species 8472 *has* planets to devastate. For all we know the bioships just breed in that soup they have instead of interstellar space in their home dimension.

Anyways, it's a moot point: Species 8472 can't seriously harm the Empire. After enough defeats they'll decide "wow, that was a really bad idea" and pull back to their own dimension for good.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-03 03:11am

Darkling, a 200GT turbolaser is a 200GT turbolaser weather it is mounted on a Carrack cruiser or a Imperitor. I believe the Carrack carries enough fire power to destoy its share of bio-ships. A squadron of tie's has enough firepower to pose a threat to a formation of bio-ships. Planet based weapons absolutely have enough power to be a serious hazzard to bio-ships. What the defenses of a particular world happens to be would depend on its value and resources but at a mininum any planet worth raiding would be one with some degree of defenses.

Knife · Post by **Knife** » 2002-12-03 03:20am

beyond hope wrote:
IDIOT. Who cares who came up with it? Who cares if 7 of 9 programmed the info. It was still able to be done with a PRIMITIVE FEDERATION STARSHIP so it CAN'T be that difficult? I'm saying that the borg could do it using NOTHING BUT RELATIVELY PRIMITIVE FEDERATION TECHNOLOGY therefore, it CAN'T be that hard you moron!!!.
I know this argument: I've seen it many times before, but usually it's coming from Trekkies who say "we'll be able to develop hyperdrive and 200 gigaton turbolasers right after we see them, because the Federation is *soooo* much better at science." That's why I called you on this in the first place, I can't believe you're sinking to that level.

I'll explain this again: Voyager got through into "fluidic space" because they had Borg drones on board to refit the ship with Borg technology in order to open up the portal. The Borg could alter Voyager to do this because they're the ones who came up with the portal in the first place. They weren't inventing the portal on the spot: they already knew the technology required and just had to make it work on a Federation ship. Since they've assimilated Federation crewmembers before, they'd know what Federation technology is like and how they have to alter things to make it work.

My brain is quite active unlike your apparently nonfunctional one. They don't need a group of drones. Seven did it all by herself. All the imps need to do is CAPTURE ONE DRONE and download the information since the borg are INCAPABLE of voluntarily separating individual drones from the collective as established in BOBW.
That's assuming their incursions aren't happening in the home galaxy rather than the Trek galaxy. There aren't any borg laying around there to capture. That's also assuming (if we take "Imperial planet" to mean one in the Trek galaxy that the Empire has taken) that the Borg haven't been exterminated by the Empire yet, and also that the Empire knows that the Borg can open a portal to Species 8472's home dimension. If they don't have a Borg handy to show them how to make one, they have to figure out the mechanics of it themselves. There's no telling how long that could take. Then there's the unwarranted assumption that Species 8472 *has* planets to devastate. For all we know the bioships just breed in that soup they have instead of interstellar space in their home dimension.

Anyways, it's a moot point: Species 8472 can't seriously harm the Empire. After enough defeats they'll decide "wow, that was a really bad idea" and pull back to their own dimension for good.

I think you are missing a small point, BYH. If the Borg can create a portal using the unsofisticated equipment on Voy to create a high tech gizmo, then the parts and the mechanics, and the principle behind the contraption is not that advanced to baffle the people who supplied the material to make the thing.

If one could make a TV with duct tape and lincoln logs, then the TV would have been made years before the invention of resister tubes and electricity. If ET came to your house and made a transmitter with your stereo and an umbrella, you might be able to determine that it worked off of standard radio waves in some fashion that you haven't considered or have basicly discarded as not benifitial to you at the moment.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 05:25am

Vympel: No sir I believe its you who is ignorant - we know they can reach the BQ it was indicated this meant the far side however if it only means the near side we have a quarter of the galaxy, you have no evidence to support your claim of the portals being limited and I have evidence supporting me - this is obvious due to the fact you are attacking my character instead of my argument.
The very fact you keep making out like its just the Voyager crew is an outright lie but this seems to be par for the course for you from what I have seen so far, 8472 werent talking about long journey times either - provide evidence to support your conclusion above the level of whining you have displayed thus far and maybe we will get somewhere.

Darth Servo: No it wasnt a joke the main deflector really does also function as a juicer

.

Knife:There is a massive drop off in weapons power on lower class ships (one of the reasons I find the 200 GT figure dubious) with X-Wings often taking them out but again even taking into acount the lower level ships the empire doesnt have enough.

Let me point something out - the empire cant build transporters (this proves they arent better than the federation in all respects) and they havent exhibited the ability to travel to other dimensions apart from one - hyperspace, if you have evidence indicating that the empire has the ability shown it otherwise shut up and stop whining (this debate has made me appreciate the wars debators with actual intellect so I think I will stick to debating them from now on).

beyond hope: I dont include you in the above since you arent subscribing to this belief in an all powerful empire that can do everything the Feds can because the "empire is cool and the feds drool", but the rest of you get a hearty

, this sort of stupidity would be flamed to death coming from pro trek but I guess its easier for idiots to hide among warsie ranks.

His Divine Shadow · Post by **His Divine Shadow** » 2002-12-03 05:31am

I am not sure they cannot after extensive research on the matter, duplicate the feat of opening a tunnel(or a force user could maybe duplicate the feat, see bottom for a relevant quote), even so, they could just follow them back in their own portals.

Pg. 290: --the compartment in the wall was built with a segment of the rock that covered it keyed to be literally shifted into another dimension by the power of the Force.

(ref: Children of the Jedi)

Post by **Vympel** » 2002-12-03 05:35am

TheDarkling wrote:Vympel: No sir I believe its you who is ignorant - we know they can reach the BQ it was indicated this meant the far side however if it only means the near side we have a quarter of the galaxy, you have no evidence to support your claim of the portals being limited and I have evidence supporting me - this is obvious due to the fact you are attacking my character instead of my argument.
The very fact you keep making out like its just the Voyager crew is an outright lie but this seems to be par for the course for you from what I have seen so far, 8472 werent talking about long journey times either - provide evidence to support your conclusion above the level of whining you have displayed thus far and maybe we will get somewhere.

Just keep building that wall of ignorance. You are clearly incapable of specifically responding to any point I bring up, you'll just keep on claiming to have proved something that you haven't.

we know they can reach the BQ it was indicated this meant the far side

Why? Because they said 'far away'. How quantifiable.

you have no evidence to support your claim of the portals being limited

NORTH. WEST. PASSAGE.

Perhaps you'd like to ignore it's existence yet again?

The very fact you keep making out like its just the Voyager crew is an outright lie

No, you present the fears of Voyager as 'evidence' that they are in the Alpha Quadrant. That's absurd. Keep whining all you like.

8472 werent talking about long journey times either

Ah I see so because they didn't specifically mention how long it would take, we should therefore assume superluminal speeds on par or beyond those of the Empire.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-12-03 05:41am

The Empire -No Jedi exist, only a couple of crazy Sith lords and was this a common Jedi skill or one of those skills a Jedi invents out of nowhere (ike chucking ISD's around) also how big was this rock? how do they control which dimension it switches to? how will they find where 8472's dimension is and so on.

Given enough time to research I have no doubt the empire could reach 8472 space but we are talking long term not 5 minutes as some people here seem to be suggesting (first the empire has to gather good sensor data on an attack, if 8472 is stricking at places with no ships and giving people no advance warning this could prove to be differcult).