A (single) Borg(ST) vs Battle Droid(SW).

[Star-Blighter]

I think I'll use a Voyager example to show inconsistancy in borg strength. After the incident in Scorpion pt 1 & 2 where Seven of Nine is captured and seperated from the collective, Janeway goes to see her condition with the doc and Tuvok. Seven demands to be returned to the collective and Janeway says no. Moments after this exchange an implant is rejected, and seven makes a violent attempt to leave her alcove. This attempt is stopped cold when tuvok shoves her back into the alcove and seven is sedated.

You know what? I'm calling fucking bullshit. I heavily suspect you're either outright lying or completely ignorant to what you're recalling. Seven of Nine was never seperated from the Collective until the very end of STVOY "Scorpion Part 2". The only physical confrontation she did throughout the entire two parter was when she hurled Paris from the navigation console and began to assimilate it.

The episode you're probably recalling is STVOY "The Gift". In that episode Seven of Nine was being stripped of her implants and being surgically "fixed" by the Doctor. I consulted the episode transcript, and it does make mention of of a implant being rejected by Seven's body and her demand to be returned to the Collective. No description of the events is mentioned, so for the time being I'm going to reject your intepretation of said event (I don't recall Tuvok ever man handling Seven). The fact her body was rejecting implants (physical trauma) and she was being sedated doesn't exactly favor her in a confrontation for that matter anyhow.

On the other hand, let's look at a much better example of the former Borg drone engaging Tuvok in hand to hand combat:

PARIS: I've located Seven's shuttle. It's two point five million kilometres from here.
TUVOK: Adjust course to intercept.
PARIS: The implants in Seven's body are disrupting the transporter signal. I can't get a lock.
TUVOK: See if you can remodulate our transporters to match her shields
PARIS: You want to beam in there?
TUVOK: Yes.
PARIS: I'm not sure that's a good idea, Tuvok. Close quarter, Borg against Vulcan, you won't stand a chance if she decides to put up a fight.
TUVOK: It is my hope that the element of surprise will work in my favour. Do you have a better idea?
PARIS: Come to think of it, no. She's charging weapons.

After Tuvok beams in, he and Seven get into a grapple. Tuvok is clearly exerting himself, while Seven looks almost casual in her handling of him. Within seconds she employes what looks like a neck pinch and renders him unconscious.

A drone may be stronger than your avaerage human, but they are not stronger than your average Vulcan and most likely much weaker then Data as Data strength>>>Vulcan strength.

You're obviosuly a fucking moron with no real arguement against the numerous Borg strength examples brought forth earlier. Your best effort was a (dubious claim) about how Seven was "man handled" by Tuvok when her body was ungoing phyiscal trauma and she was being sedated.

I am infact referring to "the gift" and the scene i mentioned takes place BEFORE Seven's implants were removed. Also only ONE implant appears to have been rejected during that scene, located on the right side of her head. If you're claiming that one implant being rejected will result in such a reduction in strength that a vulcan can shove (yes he literally fucking shoved her into the alcove) a drone around, then it only makes drones even MORE vulnerable and combat ineffective then they already are.

Now that you really want to get into it, I'm only to say this once so listen VERY carefully. I have never lied in a debate, not on this board or anyother I have been to. I also have never called you a liar, nor anyone else on this without atleast SOME evidence to backup it. Call bullshit all you want, call me and my opinions idiotic, unimformed or ignorant.

But don't you fucking dare call me a liar you worthless, palm-fucking piece if shit.

I have the clip on hand in the form of a Quick time media file. Give me an email address or specify another method of distribution. I will relish shoving your unfounded acusations right back down your bullshit spewing throat.

PS: You haven't refuted the sickening ease with which Picard tore through the exoplating of the holodeck drone with his bare hands in First Contact. I don't think you ever planned to either. Just hope the point gets lost in the thread, or perhaps call me a liar to try and discredit the example. Scum like you tend to do such things.

[Robert Walper]

I am infact referring to "the gift" and the scene i mentioned takes place BEFORE Seven's implants were removed. Also only ONE implant appears to have been rejected during that scene, located on the right side of her head. If you're claiming that one implant being rejected will result in such a reduction in strength that a vulcan can shove (yes he literally fucking shoved her into the alcove) a drone around, then it only makes drones even MORE vulnerable and combat ineffective then they already are.

Are you seriously this fucking dense? Tuvok can shove Seven back into an alcove. Whoopie fucking shit! I could shove a individual of equal or even greater mass and strength easily. What's important is their efforts of physically resisting me.

And my mention of the implant being rejected by her body is the fact is it is causing her physical trauma (in her head to boot!) and would compromise her ability to think of resisting or thinking clearly at all for that matter.

I have the clip on hand in the form of a Quick time media file. Give me an email address or specify another method of distribution.

I would like to see this video clip. I'll PM you my gmail account.

PS: You haven't refuted the sickening ease with which Picard tore through the exoplating of the holodeck drone with his bare hands in First Contact. I don't think you ever planned to either. Just hope the point gets lost in the thread, or perhaps call me a liar to try and discredit the example. Scum like you tend to do such things.

You are a fucking moron, aren't you? Basic reading skills beyond you? I refuted it easily with the fact he a moment earlier used a fucking machine gun to chew up the drones. Or do you think the bullets magically passed through their leather armor without ripping it open?

[Star-Blighter]

Posted a little ahead of myself Walper.

What proof do you have that the exoplating on those drones was any different than on any other drone? Answer: None at all. Don't bring up tactical drones either as they cannot be quantified without resorting to pulling lots of make-believe bull-shit out of your ass.

About picard raking those drones drones in the holodeck. Hypotheticly, lets say I opened up with a thompson on the torso section of a suit of medieval gothic plate armor. Even though the thompson goes right through it like butter, there is NO WAY on heaven, earth or hell that I or anyother un-augmented human could peel or tear the damaged pieces away to get to the person that would hypotheticly be in the armor. Especially with BARE HANDS. I would have to unfasten the armor and remove the plate piece by piece.

Your claims about drone exoplating are either not completely honest or so unbelievably ignorant that it is truly a wonder that you haven't walked off a cliff and killed yourself yet.

As it stands, the borg use a material no tougher than leather in their "armor". The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

[Robert Walper]

Posted a little ahead of myself Walper.

Alright, I've done that on occasion as well.

What proof do you have that the exoplating on those drones was any different than on any other drone?

For the sake of clarification, I looked up the quote:

ERIN: Species six nine six one, Ktarian. Tritanium infrastructure. He's a tactical drone.

I used the term titanium rather than "tri"tanium. This is the same material that Borg vessel hulls are composed of as well.

Answer: None at all. Don't bring up tactical drones either as they cannot be quantified without resorting to pulling lots of make-believe bull-shit out of your ass.

See above. It's not made up bullshit. I'm not asserting any of the drones on the Enterprise had superior armor than the ones on the holodeck. What I'm pointing out is that not all drones are the same, and some of them have tritanium as part of their infrastructure, the same material that Borg craft hulls are made of.

About picard raking those drones drones in the holodeck. Hypotheticly, lets say I opened up with a thompson on the torso section of a suit of medieval gothic plate armor. Even though the thompson goes right through it like butter, there is NO WAY on heaven, earth or hell that I or anyother un-augmented human could peel or tear the damaged pieces away to get to the person that would hypotheticly be in the armor. Especially with BARE HANDS. I would have to unfasten the armor and remove the plate piece by piece.

Your claims about drone exoplating are either not completely honest or so unbelievably ignorant that it is truly a wonder that you haven't walked off a cliff and killed yourself yet.

As it stands, the borg use a material no tougher than leather in their "armor". The burden of proof is on you to demonstrate otherwise.

I've made no claim other than tactical drones have a much stronger composition of their structure than other types of drones. I specifically pointed out the drones in the holodeck had armor that was only leather like, and that's why Picard could do what he did.

How many times must I repeat myself? Not all drones are built the same way, not all have the same capabilities, etc.

[brianeyci]

Star-Blighter, you are obviously unaware that tactical drones are canon from the quotation that Walper showed. As well, we get a closeup of the tactical drone and its "armor" is metal looking rather than leather looking. If I have to fetch a screenshot of this to convince you, then you fetch a screenshot of the SBD punching a BD. Not all Borg drones have leather "armor". The drones that were created on Enterprise-E were created in a makeshift facility using whatever materials were on hand without standard Borg facilities.

Brian

[Star-Blighter]

Star-Blighter, you are obviously unaware that tactical drones are canon from the quotation that Walper showed. As well, we get a closeup of the tactical drone and its "armor" is metal looking rather than leather looking. If I have to fetch a screenshot of this to convince you, then you fetch a screenshot of the SBD punching a BD. Not all Borg drones have leather "armor". The drones that were created on Enterprise-E were created in a makeshift facility using whatever materials were on hand without standard Borg facilities.

Brian

The borg tactical drone has never been seen in action, ever. It's capabilities are not known and it is not described outside of being called a tactical drone, which only implies that it is "somehow" different (presumably it's combat oriented judging by the name) from a normal drone.The B1 and SBD HAVE been seen in action so their capabilities are much more easily quantified.

Besides, if you get tactical drones, we get SBDs.

[Star-Blighter]

For the sake of debate. Lets speculate what a "Tac" Drone would reasonably have in the way of weaponry and defenses.

Tritanium armor: Well it probably be pretty damn tough, but I doubt it could hold up to sustained blaster fire for long. We don't have hard numbers on Tritanium's strength and it's material composition is unknown.

Weaponry: I would consider it reasonable that a heavier disrupter then the ones normal drones carry and (sometimes) use would be fitted on a Tac Drone. There is no canon info on whether it has disrupters or not though.

Shields: No info here either, although it would be logical to assume they are on par with other drone shields at the least.

Aside from these assumptions, there is precisely didily and squat in the way of quantifyable ability.

You see why trying to use tac drones in a vs is difficult? Aside from a tactical drone being implied to be more formidable than a normal drone and it's armor being composed of tritanium (which in and of it's self cannot be quantified), there is NO information AT ALL about them.

[The Silence and I]

The B1 and SBD HAVE been seen in action so their capabilities are much more easily quantified.

If by 'in action' you mean one brief grapple with a species of unknown strength with an unstable skeletal structure and one backfist which knocked the head off a damaged B1 droid, then yes.
Such droids tend to fall apart when shut down so knocking the head off a droid in the process of "dying" may not be as impressive as you think (I would also add to that every time a droid is kicked without attempting to block, and then disabled).

In case you doubt me, the droid had just been shot and its erratic movements got it in the way of the SBD: linky

Note the rather obvious glowing tear where a blaster bolt recently hit. Also note the poor posture and unusual way the droid is holding its blaster, it was on its way out the SBD was just impatient.

When the SBD struck the BD, in the thin neck strut, sparks flew, the head tumbled into the air for a meter or two, and the body fell to the ground. There is no evidence of a massive forceful blow; the backfist motion took the head off a damaged droid known for losing body parts during loss of power (the joints are held together with electromagnets, lose power and things fall apart) and the remaining body didn't even crash into the ground with great speed or tumble into the background. Think about the mechanics of motion for a second, this was not a high force impact (all things are relative, what I mean is a drone could have hit harder based on observed effects; that backfist still would probably knock a human clean out, if for no better reason than the 'fist' is a very hard surface).

Thought about it and disagreed with me? Well just in case here is a diagram to help: link

The full force of the impact was delivered to the neck spar, which accelerated in the direction of the impact. Like a capapult arm the spar rotated about the joint with the main body, slinging the head back. The acceleration on the joint with the head was too much and the head flew into the air about two meters. The force of the impact delivered to the main body through the rotating spar joint was not enough to noticable accelerate the low mass droid in any direction.

There are two ways this event could have demonstrated greater force: by flinging the body either downward or into the background or by sending the head on a more energetic flight path. Neither happened.

Let's tally up the observed cases of battledroids getting physical shall we?

1) Battledroid and a Gungan wrestle with no clear advantage. Gungans are lightweight creatures with cartiledge skeletons and disproportionately powerful legs. They are likely not significantly stronger than humans in upper body strength and support.
2) A super battledroid knocks the head off a damaged battledroid, imparted momentum is low the impact was not very large. The upper limit is unfortunately not known but the lower limit appears less than drone strength.
3) Actually this should be 3-14 or so, this is every time a kick or punch with little imparted momentum knocks out a battledroid. In the arena Jedi kicked droids left and right, Force enhanced strength is certainly available to them, but a force enhanced kick would result in a large impulse against the low mass droids. We see nothing of the kind, a trained martial artist could take a droid out with a kick to the main body.

This is AFAIK all the examples of these droids dealing with hand to hand situations. The non combat specialized Borg drones appear to have a better track record. Your move.

[The Silence and I]

Bloody lack of edit...

The head does NOT fly 2 meters into the air, it flies about .5 meters up and tumbles a lot. I also want to clarify what I said about the body's motion: there is no large motion resulting from the impact, what I typed indicated there was NO motion, which is false. The body falls down and to the aft, as if someone had given it a bit of a shove into the background on its way down.

My point is this was not a strength of ten men class impact, that would have resulted in FAR more motion and/or a more energetic head motion.

[Robert Walper]

For the sake of debate. Lets speculate what a "Tac" Drone would reasonably have in the way of weaponry and defenses.

Tritanium armor: Well it probably be pretty damn tough, but I doubt it could hold up to sustained blaster fire for long. We don't have hard numbers on Tritanium's strength and it's material composition is unknown.

Since we're not concerning ourselves with blasters, what the hell is your point? Did you miss the "unarmed" specification of the OP?

Weaponry: I would consider it reasonable that a heavier disrupter then the ones normal drones carry and (sometimes) use would be fitted on a Tac Drone. There is no canon info on whether it has disrupters or not though.

Since both parties have been decalred weaponless, again, what the hell is your point? You're spewing one Red Herring after another.

Shields: No info here either, although it would be logical to assume they are on par with other drone shields at the least.

Again, irrelevent. No one brought up Borg shielding in this particular confrontation, only you. Another, guess what, Red Herring.

Aside from these assumptions, there is precisely didily and squat in the way of quantifyable ability.

Which is why all the examples we listed were of other types of drones. Fucking duh.

You see why trying to use tac drones in a vs is difficult?

Not at all. The only thing I've asserted is their armor is stronger than other drones. Everything else we provided was on the basis of other types of drones we have seen in action, and can easily assume a Tactical drone is at least equal to.

Aside from a tactical drone being implied to be more formidable than a normal drone and it's armor being composed of tritanium (which in and of it's self cannot be quantified), there is NO information AT ALL about them.

And since the entire arguement has been nothing more than the armor aspect which I presume you now concede, what's your point? All other arguements were on the basis on other drones which to the best of our knowledge were not tactical ones.

[Robert Walper]

Star-Blighter, you are obviously unaware that tactical drones are canon from the quotation that Walper showed. As well, we get a closeup of the tactical drone and its "armor" is metal looking rather than leather looking. If I have to fetch a screenshot of this to convince you, then you fetch a screenshot of the SBD punching a BD. Not all Borg drones have leather "armor". The drones that were created on Enterprise-E were created in a makeshift facility using whatever materials were on hand without standard Borg facilities.

Brian

The borg tactical drone has never been seen in action, ever. It's capabilities are not known and it is not described outside of being called a tactical drone, which only implies that it is "somehow" different (presumably it's combat oriented judging by the name) from a normal drone.

And all our other examples and evidence is based upon non tactical drones. For fuck's sake Blight, did you even bother reading the thread and arguements, or did you just speak up to try your hand at irrelevent Borg bashing?

The B1 and SBD HAVE been seen in action so their capabilities are much more easily quantified.

Besides, if you get tactical drones, we get SBDs.

It's already been suggested no one expects a drone to beat a SBD. You'd know already this if you'd bothered to actually read the thread.

[Star-Blighter]

Bloody lack of edit...

The head does NOT fly 2 meters into the air, it flies about .5 meters up and tumbles a lot. I also want to clarify what I said about the body's motion: there is no large motion resulting from the impact, what I typed indicated there was NO motion, which is false. The body falls down and to the aft, as if someone had given it a bit of a shove into the background on its way down.

My point is this was not a strength of ten men class impact, that would have resulted in FAR more motion and/or a more energetic head motion.

As you said, B1 and B2 type battledroids have joints held together using electro magnets. On that basis alone force coupling between the head and body of the battledroid will be much less then a conventional design. Your diagram seems to indicate that the SBD's fist hit the neck spar of the battledroid. If this is the case then the neither the head or body will be accurate indicators of force of impact. What will matter is what happens to the neck spar. Does it remain attached to either the head or body after impact? If not, then the only accurate indicator of SBD strength would be the velocity of the neck spar.

As to the droid falling apart. It seems rather intact despite the blaster damage. Did any of the appendages fall off BEFORE the SBD hit it? Note that I am NOT saying the battledroid was still functional before it was hit by the SBD. What I AM asking is if any appendages on the battledroid "unlocked" and dropped before being hit.

Also the electro joints on battledroids don't normally spark when disengaging as far as I know. That would most likely only be the case if the droid was hit BEFORE the joints disengaged.

[Lone_Prodigy]

As you said, B1 and B2 type battledroids have joints held together using electro magnets.

B1s definitely, but B2s? They didn't seem to come apart like the B1s during any part of the movie.

[Star-Blighter]

For the sake of debate. Lets speculate what a "Tac" Drone would reasonably have in the way of weaponry and defenses.

Tritanium armor: Well it probably be pretty damn tough, but I doubt it could hold up to sustained blaster fire for long. We don't have hard numbers on Tritanium's strength and it's material composition is unknown.

Since we're not concerning ourselves with blasters, what the hell is your point? Did you miss the "unarmed" specification of the OP?

Weaponry: I would consider it reasonable that a heavier disrupter then the ones normal drones carry and (sometimes) use would be fitted on a Tac Drone. There is no canon info on whether it has disrupters or not though.

Since both parties have been decalred weaponless, again, what the hell is your point? You're spewing one Red Herring after another.

Shields: No info here either, although it would be logical to assume they are on par with other drone shields at the least.

Again, irrelevent. No one brought up Borg shielding in this particular confrontation, only you. Another, guess what, Red Herring.

Aside from these assumptions, there is precisely didily and squat in the way of quantifyable ability.

Which is why all the examples we listed were of other types of drones. Fucking duh.

You see why trying to use tac drones in a vs is difficult?

Not at all. The only thing I've asserted is their armor is stronger than other drones. Everything else we provided was on the basis of other types of drones we have seen in action, and can easily assume a Tactical drone is at least equal to.

Aside from a tactical drone being implied to be more formidable than a normal drone and it's armor being composed of tritanium (which in and of it's self cannot be quantified), there is NO information AT ALL about them.

And since the entire arguement has been nothing more than the armor aspect which I presume you now concede, what's your point? All other arguements were on the basis on other drones which to the best of our knowledge were not tactical ones.

I was being methodical by listing all the possible differences a tac drone might have when compared to a regular drone. In truth I forgot about the OP specifiying no weapons.

And why on earth do you presume I would concede on armor you can't quantify, on a drone that has never been observed in combat at all. As sparce as melee is with SBD's, it beats the hell out of drawing unprovable conclusions on a drone type that has only been observed while in an alcove. Voyager makes an unpleasent habbit of using the same technobabble names for different things depending on the episode, so associating the armor on a tac drone with the material of ship hulls becuase the name is the same might not fly. Tac drone armor being stronger then other drone armor means nothing if we don't HOW MUCH stronger it is. Stronger then the armor of the First Contact drones in the holodeck (the holodeck drones look no different then drones seen on cubes, so I don't know where you got the idea that leather armor is the exception and not the rule, becuase you definatly did not get it from the episodes.)? I would bloody well hope so.

As for regular drones, did you recieve the clip I sent? If not I can resend it as I would like to hear your opinion on it very much.

If you want to compare ST cybernetics with the SW version, then there is always the EU example of a cyborg arm hurling a spear hard enough to throw a stormtrooper in full kit across a room and into a wall hard enough to knock him unconsious. That is much more power than modern smalls arms are capable of. A fully mechanical droid would likely be capable of even more strength due to not having to worry about "weak" biological components.

[Star-Blighter]

As you said, B1 and B2 type battledroids have joints held together using electro magnets.

B1s definitely, but B2s? They didn't seem to come apart like the B1s during any part of the movie.

They could have a different setup, true. Haven't seen AoTC in a while so my memory is a bit sketchy.

[The Silence and I]

Bloody lack of edit...

The head does NOT fly 2 meters into the air, it flies about .5 meters up and tumbles a lot. I also want to clarify what I said about the body's motion: there is no large motion resulting from the impact, what I typed indicated there was NO motion, which is false. The body falls down and to the aft, as if someone had given it a bit of a shove into the background on its way down.

My point is this was not a strength of ten men class impact, that would have resulted in FAR more motion and/or a more energetic head motion.

As you said, B1 and B2 type battledroids have joints held together using electro magnets. On that basis alone force coupling between the head and body of the battledroid will be much less then a conventional design.

I am not sure what you are saying here; force is force is force. Electromagnetic joints won't change that.

Your diagram seems to indicate that the SBD's fist hit the neck spar of the battledroid.

Quite true, it did.

If this is the case then the neither the head or body will be accurate indicators of force of impact. What will matter is what happens to the neck spar. Does it remain attached to either the head or body after impact? If not, then the only accurate indicator of SBD strength would be the velocity of the neck spar.

Well I discovered another error in my above post, the neck spar remains attached to the HEAD, not the body. But it does not fly off on its own. This should mean the joint with the body failed, apparently before transfering enough force to give the body much impulse, and then the neck spar and head were flung into the air. I'm not sure which scenario requires less force, but this is not a better case for a high force impact.

Link
Note the blurry thing attached to the head, that is the neck spar. It failed at the body a little below the impact point. Most of the force apparently went into the rotation of the head, which does spin quickly.

As to the droid falling apart. It seems rather intact despite the blaster damage. Did any of the appendages fall off BEFORE the SBD hit it? Note that I am NOT saying the battledroid was still functional before it was hit by the SBD. What I AM asking is if any appendages on the battledroid "unlocked" and dropped before being hit.

No appendages fell off before the hit, because the power wasn't completely off at the time. In fact this may not even be an issue, I just threw it out there as a possibility. We know a powered down droid still retains steadily weakening joint integrity for several seconds. Starwars materials likely hold the charge for a while like an inefficient super conductor.

Also the electro joints on battledroids don't normally spark when disengaging as far as I know. That would most likely only be the case if the droid was hit BEFORE the joints disengaged.

Most likely. I never meant the joints were completely disengaged, if they were the droid would have fallen apart on its own. At best they were starting to weaken, but it may not have done so at all. Regardless the sparks were most likely not from the electro joints but rather from the power transfer to the head--which of course means power was still flowing, so it is quite possible full integrity remained. I prefer to think it wasn't though, because the neck spar is very poorly attached if the impact represents full joint strength.

[Star-Blighter]

The Silence and I.

When I refer to force coupling, I speak of how an electromagnetic joint would likely be weaker and more prone to seperation then one held on by bolts or welds. Of course this would depend on the strength of the magnets used.

As for the SBD hitting the battledroid, I think that we can both agree that the nature of the hit makes an exact quantification of strength difficult to achieve. Although I would conclude somewhat greater strength for SBDs then that of the general consensous, it would require an effort I am not willing to make to lay down a hard calc for the incident.

As for who I think would win. I now think a drone might win due to it's more robust frame and greater mass, something that I did not entirely take into account until now. A tac drone would likely make a battledroid it's bitch but I believe a SBD would pwn a tac drone even worse then a tac drone could pwn a B1.

Apologies to anyone who was offended by my posting style. I generally have pretty thick skin when comes to flamage so I give alot of flames out as well.

[Robert Walper]

I was being methodical by listing all the possible differences a tac drone might have when compared to a regular drone. In truth I forgot about the OP specifiying no weapons.

Listing all the potential differences between a tactical drone and "regular" drone doesn't achieve much. That's why the evidence we did work with was regular drones. The only degree of superiority of tactical drones I argued was armor, on the simple basis that metal is going to be stronger than leather. It doesn't get much simpler than that.

And why on earth do you presume I would concede on armor you can't quantify, on a drone that has never been observed in combat at all.

I only expect a concession that tactical drones possess superior armor to that of a leather armored drones. This should've been obvious.

As sparce as melee is with SBD's, it beats the hell out of drawing unprovable conclusions on a drone type that has only been observed while in an alcove. Voyager makes an unpleasent habbit of using the same technobabble names for different things depending on the episode, so associating the armor on a tac drone with the material of ship hulls becuase the name is the same might not fly.

Until convincing evidence suggests otherwise, I will take the term tritanium as a single term provided for a specific type of metal in Trek.

Tac drone armor being stronger then other drone armor means nothing if we don't HOW MUCH stronger it is. Stronger then the armor of the First Contact drones in the holodeck (the holodeck drones look no different then drones seen on cubes, so I don't know where you got the idea that leather armor is the exception and not the rule, becuase you definatly did not get it from the episodes.)? I would bloody well hope so.

Where did I suggest leather armor was the exception rather than the rule? I've done nothing other than assert not all drones are the same. I cannot see how I could possibly be more clear on this point.

As for regular drones, did you recieve the clip I sent? If not I can resend it as I would like to hear your opinion on it very much.

I did recieve it, however, it's in ".rm" format. I'm unable to play that format as I don't have Real Player. I'll see about getting it perhaps, but I prefer other media types such QuickTime and Windows Media Player. Are you able to convert it? You can respond via PM, I'll gladly check the video out with you.

If you want to compare ST cybernetics with the SW version, then there is always the EU example of a cyborg arm hurling a spear hard enough to throw a stormtrooper in full kit across a room and into a wall hard enough to knock him unconsious. That is much more power than modern smalls arms are capable of. A fully mechanical droid would likely be capable of even more strength due to not having to worry about "weak" biological components.

That's all fine and dandy, but you must prove the B1's possess anything near this level of strength. This thread was focusing on a hand to hand confrontation between a Borg drone and a battledroid, with the option of upping to a super battle droid if the typical one seemed to heavily outmatched. So all arguements on my part were focused on that specific matchup. All your other material about blasters, SW cyborgs and how your self created hatchet men force could defeat drones was entirely irrelevent and just one big Red Herring. That's where the confusion was.

[DaveJB]

I did recieve it, however, it's in ".rm" format. I'm unable to play that format as I don't have Real Player. I'll see about getting it perhaps...

Do NOT do that! Real Player is still pretty fucked up and adware-ridden from what I've heard. Download the Real Alternative instead.

[Robert Walper]

I did recieve it, however, it's in ".rm" format. I'm unable to play that format as I don't have Real Player. I'll see about getting it perhaps...

Do NOT do that! Real Player is still pretty fucked up and adware-ridden from what I've heard. Download the Real Alternative instead.

Roger, thanks for the help DJB.

[The Silence and I]

The Silence and I.

When I refer to force coupling, I speak of how an electromagnetic joint would likely be weaker and more prone to seperation then one held on by bolts or welds. Of course this would depend on the strength of the magnets used.

There is no reason to assume an electromagnet joint will be weaker than a physical one. However it has been pointed out to me than the joint between the neck spar and the body is welded together in AOTC, so I suppose that joint is not electromagnetic (not all the joints are, the knees and elbows don't seem to be for example).

As for the SBD hitting the battledroid, I think that we can both agree that the nature of the hit makes an exact quantification of strength difficult to achieve. Although I would conclude somewhat greater strength for SBDs then that of the general consensous, it would require an effort I am not willing to make to lay down a hard calc for the incident.

It is indeed difficult to quantify very well. The strength behind the SBD's strike may well be much larger than the force needed to break the BD as the fist was not stopped cold by the impact. However the momentum and thus force delivered to the BD by the impact, and hence the force needed to destroy such a droid with a similar impact point, can be estimated more easily. The force 'absorbed' by the droid was not large enough to send the body crashing into the ground at high speed nor was it enough to send the head into the background like a missile. However much force was behind the SBD strike we can say not much was transfered before the BD was destroyed.

As for who I think would win. I now think a drone might win due to it's more robust frame and greater mass, something that I did not entirely take into account until now. A tac drone would likely make a battledroid it's bitch but I believe a SBD would pwn a tac drone even worse then a tac drone could pwn a B1.

Glad we agree now
Food for thought, Borg drones may be heavier than you know--a full strength human impact caused a drone to flinch a tiny bit, heavy impacts from Data toss humans through the air yet hardly knock drones over, drones never shift their mass before tossing people like rag dolls, Worf's best hit with a club to a drone's head makes it bend over; Borg drones seem to be very very heavy. Maybe 350 pounds or in that ball park, maybe heavier.

And while specific strikes can damage and bring down drones it is foolish to assume they won't keep coming after taking hits--Picard emptied about half a tommygun clip of .45 bullets into one drone before it gave up and died... unless you break an important implant or cause massive head or neck trauma the drone will probably keep coming for some time to come. If an attack doesn't kill them quickly it probably wont, as they repair damage such as bleeding which might otherwise kill them slowly. A super battledroid will win in my opinion not because it is smarter or stronger but because it is covered in very thick armor and can take hits much better than the drone can. I would be interested in seeing a tac drone try the SBD, but the disparity in protection is still too great IMO.

With all that said I see almost no possible way for a BD to win discounting shear dumb luck.

[kahless the unforgetable]

Anyone who has studied the borg wil consider this argument silly for the following reasons.

1 your bog standard borg drone has a weapon pod in place of his/her left hand with the tubulles extruding from the centre and since the scenario calls for the borg weapons to be dissabled or destroyed then the tubulles will be also.
the only exceptions to this are the borg quuen who has drone guards and does not need weapons and Seven of Nine whose superstructure was surgically removed by the doctor to bring her organic systems back to life , he rebuilt her hand.

2 Borg tubulles inject nanites that are programmed to assimmilate organic systems not metal , however although a borg drone can re program his nannites to destroy metal he would not do so inside his own body because it would destroy his mechanical substructure and kill him.

3 borg do not assimilate machines , they either destroy them or rebuild them into borg tech , for example what they tried to do to Commander Data was surgically replace his epidermis with living skin while trying to re program him.

This means that a borg drone would not even try to use his tubulles if they were working so the fight is decided on strength , agillity and reflexes.
Another thing to consider is that borg have superior senses and would be difficult to surprise , the evidence is as follows , a group of droids could not detect a bunch of armed naboo and two jedi hiding behind a carved wooden wall and peering through the hangar door in episode one of STAR WARS , on the other hand Seven of Nine had a flashback nightmare of a borg drone smashing its way through the wall of the jefferies tube where her mother had hidden her when the Raven was caught by the borg.
A metal jefferies tube is harder to detect through than a wooden wall , IE Infrared .

I recommend some of you should check your cranial fuse panells as silliness like this indicates a partial brown out of the neural network

[The Spartan]

snip

None of which has anything to do with a single drone facing a single battledroid. The only one whose "cranial fuse panells" needs checking is your own.

Oh and for future reference, don't raise the dead!

[kahless the unforgetable]

Sorry this should have gone in disarmed drone verses dissarmed battledroid.
A thousand appologies I am New at this

[kahless the unforgetable]

I never said I was The origional Kahless I am In fact The clone created from his Blood sample.