Gungans VS Borg

[General Brock]

OK, searched out some stills; at least two, possibly three domes, one power generator and one projector unit per dome, domes connect like adjoining bubbles, except the bubbles may have no adjoining walls. Maybe; the Gungan lines are continuous with no break at sheild intersections, yet it looks like walled intersections might still be are there. Domes look like half a plasma sphere; must come from being generated from energy plasma goo.

Which only proves that shields on the same side can be connected. Maybe opposing shields can be set to reject one another, maybe not. That each dome retains a measure of its own integrity, and they don't join as one big bubble dome despite wall permeability, suggests this might be possible.

In fact some effort might have to be made to keep them from rejecting each other if the adjoinment opens a clear window between bubbles; combining into one single dome is natural for adjoining soap bubbles once the dividing wall collapses. If they are open to one another and not combining, and trying to reassert distinct domes, they must naturally reject one another and the degree of rejection may be controllable.

If the domes are adjoining walled bubbles, passing the perimeter doesn't harm living animals. If there are no walls, opposing shields may still reject one another, so being able to freely pass the barrier for melee fighting is possible. As mentioned, the grass isn't harmed in the least, but there appears to be an air gap between ground and shield.

On the other hand these Gungan shields aren't soap bubbles, and Borg 'skin' is as resilient as non-living matter in some ways.

Assuming the Borg have no problem entering is reasonable given the knowns and unknowns.

[NecronLord]

I've been told that the Beijing Wushu team is divided into two specialties; the acrobatic, high-jumping forms team that can't hit as hard as the not-so-high jumping combat team, which can demolish a human being with one landed kick. They look distinctly different, the acrobats lighter and boxers bulkier in build.

Irrelevant. Jar Jar can jump from standing, fifteen feet in the air, flipping over and over. A gungan basketball player would be able to hop up and stand on the hoop. Their leg muscles at least are vastly superior to ours, any kick they give will be utterly devastating. Gungans are physically superior to humans, and apparently do not enjoy any advantage over B1 battledroids despite this.

I also saw Jar Jar jumping up and down on a battle droid, but not utilizing his muscles for any specialized kicking martial moves, nor did any other Gungan doing so.

Oh yes. Because of course, Jar Jar is a proper soldier, and not the village idiot at all, is he? EDIT: Seriously, how is that any kind of argument? Do you think that perhaps he should have smashed the droid when he jumped up and down on it? They're superior to humans; that doesn't mean they can effortlessly damage inch thick armoured chest plates.

My point is, in the one instance where we see them fighting something like a human - somewhat superior - in the films, the B1s aren't defeated easily. While they are fragile and weak by the standards of General Grievous or the Super Battle Droids, that doesn't mean they're actually puny by normal mortals' standards.

[Cao Cao]

B-1 battle droids that face clones were improved since TPM. Since their joints are electromagnetically held together, the TF probably sprung for stronger mags after noticing they didn't do to well against the Gungans without their blasters.

Will you quit making up crap to support your case? The only flimsy thing here is your argument that the TF fielded an army of weak droids as a planetary occupation force. Even though they later prove to be a match for the Republic. Even though the Nemodians are rich, paranoid and physically weak and would naturally invest in the best army money can buy.

[The Original Nex]

An alien with what might be specialized muscles, and even lighter organic composition allowing it to jump high; they never demonstrated super strength fighting skills against humans. Jar Jar eats flying insects; fast twitch response doesn't equate physical power.

Just to clear up these ludicrous brainbugs regarding B1s being "flimsy." The AtoC Novelization makes it clear that one on one, a clone trooper is EQUAL to a B1 Battle Droid, and the B2s OUTMATCH the clones. It is through superior GROUP tactics that the clones gain the advantage. So STOP with this "Battle Droids are weak RAR!!" idiocy.

B-1 battle droids that face clones were improved since TPM. Since their joints are electromagnetically held together, the TF probably sprung for stronger mags after noticing they didn't do to well against the Gungans without their blasters.[/quote]

You will of course state your sources for these supposed upgrades. As far as I'm aware they were upgraded to the extent only that they were made more autonomous. Nothing strength-wise.

[General Brock]

Irrelevant. Jar Jar can jump from standing, fifteen feet in the air, flipping over and over. A gungan basketball player would be able to hop up and stand on the hoop. Their leg muscles at least are vastly superior to ours, any kick they give will be utterly devastating. Gungans are physically superior to humans, and apparently do not enjoy any advantage over B1 battledroids despite this.

They are vastly superior to humans because they can jump in one direction; up? And, have never been seen fighting humans - just clumsy droids not designed for melee combat? That's not demonstrating overall superior muscle strength and coordination needed to fight.

Oh yes. Because of course, Jar Jar is a proper soldier, and not the village idiot at all, is he? EDIT: Seriously, how is that any kind of argument? Do you think that perhaps he should have smashed the droid when he jumped up and down on it? They're superior to humans; that doesn't mean they can effortlessly damage inch thick armoured chest plates.

Even if his muscles are specialized to deliver great force on a horizontal plane, yes, jumping down on something still wouldn't deliver beyond his mass. Gungans may be superior in strength to humans, their bodies built to swim and all, but not to the great degree you would imply.

My point is, in the one instance where we see them fighting something like a human - somewhat superior - in the films, the B1s aren't defeated easily. While they are fragile and weak by the standards of General Grievous or the Super Battle Droids, that doesn't mean they're actually puny by normal mortals' standards.

A human probably couldn't break its arm, because its metal, but its grip and blows may not crush the life out of a human outright. TPM B-1 metal limbs powered by weak electro mags will likely not out-wrestle a strong human since it was designed to only have to aim and shoot a light blaster. Its potential mechanical advantages are unrealized because of inferior electronics. Even the extra mass implied by metal may not be there, since a light alloy would be expected in a compactable droid meant for ease of transport.

B-1s are physically tougher, no doubt; one kept on shooting being swung attached to Jar Jar. Stronger than man or Neimodian, not necessarily, the best fighting machine possible for an inexpensive humaniod droid, not likely.

It doesn't take great strength and skill to use a weapon as clumsy and random as a blaster.

[General Brock]

B-1 battle droids that face clones were improved since TPM. Since their joints are electromagnetically held together, the TF probably sprung for stronger mags after noticing they didn't do to well against the Gungans without their blasters.

Will you quit making up crap to support your case? The only flimsy thing here is your argument that the TF fielded an army of weak droids as a planetary occupation force. Even though they later prove to be a match for the Republic. Even though the Nemodians are rich, paranoid and physically weak and would naturally invest in the best army money can buy.

And Lucasfilm went on and on about how cost-conscious and corner-cutting the Trade Feds were?

The blaster is a great equalizer. Padme could stop a Wookie with one. Occupying a planet whose security forces don't even have sealed hard armour in great supply and what appears to be a pacifistic, unarmed populace, isn't going to require much beyond large numbers of blaster-armed C-3POs, let alone cut rate 'battle droids'.

[Cao Cao]

And Lucasfilm went on and on about how cost-conscious and corner-cutting the Trade Feds were?

I assume you have more than thin air to back this up with.

[General Brock]

You will of course state your sources for these supposed upgrades. As far as I'm aware they were upgraded to the extent only that they were made more autonomous. Nothing strength-wise.

No such source exists. If it came out in a book or comic, I never read of it.

Generally, the Databank says the droids were improved, specifically mentioned the autonomous brain, and left room for further expansion on the subject.

By reasonable extrapolation, improving strength with improved electromagnets was possible. They may have upgraded the body alloys, but there is no reason to, and improved the electronics resistance to concussive force, but there is no written record of this happening. However, they are the most logical ways to improve the droid design without changing the visible design itself.

There is 'making stuff up' and there is 'reasonable extrapolation', and I'm applying reasonable real-world solutions as probable fixes for fictional canon. I'm not making stuff up out of thin air.

[Batman]

B-1 battle droids that face clones were improved since TPM. Since their joints are electromagnetically held together, the TF probably sprung for stronger mags after noticing they didn't do to well against the Gungans without their blasters.

Will you quit making up crap to support your case? The only flimsy thing here is your argument that the TF fielded an army of weak droids as a planetary occupation force. Even though they later prove to be a match for the Republic. Even though the Nemodians are rich, paranoid and physically weak and would naturally invest in the best army money can buy.

And Lucasfilm went on and on about how cost-conscious and corner-cutting the Trade Feds were?

You will no doubt a) quote an in-universe source for a)that happening in the first place and b)it affecting, including numbers on to which extent it affected, the quality of the TF army when compared to regular military troops.

The blaster is a great equalizer. Padme could stop a Wookie with one. Occupying a planet whose security forces don't even have sealed hard armour in great supply and what appears to be a pacifistic, unarmed populace, isn't going to require much beyond large numbers of blaster-armed C-3POs, let alone cut rate 'battle droids'.

So, are you going to actually provide evidence for that being all the TF had anytime soon, when what we actually SEE in the movies is those same 'blaster-armed C-3POs' stand up to the Army of the republic?

Not that I see why the alleged physical frailty of the B1s is even relevant.

[Cao Cao]

There is 'making stuff up' and there is 'reasonable extrapolation', and I'm applying reasonable real-world solutions as probable fixes for fictional canon. I'm not making stuff up out of thin air.

No you're not. You're continually making unfounded assumptions to support your pre-made conclusion that the Trade Federation fielded a bunch of substandard droids.

[General Brock]

And Lucasfilm went on and on about how cost-conscious and corner-cutting the Trade Feds were?

I assume you have more than thin air to back this up with.

Read the official Star Wars Databank entries on 'Battle Droid'. Also apply a smattering of real-world precedent as to what corner-cutting would do to an otherwise adequate mechanical design.

What I'm imagining is within reasonable extrapolation, because its not out of thin air but within the spirit and intent of discrete baseline material canon.

[Batman]

You will of course state your sources for these supposed upgrades. As far as I'm aware they were upgraded to the extent only that they were made more autonomous. Nothing strength-wise.

No such source exists. If it came out in a book or comic, I never read of it.

IOW you don't KNOW no such source exits.

Generally, the Databank says the droids were improved, specifically mentioned the autonomous brain, and left room for further expansion on the subject.
By reasonable extrapolation, improving strength with improved electromagnets was possible.

But is not mentioned anywhere in the canon.

They may have upgraded the body alloys, but there is no reason to,

Yeah, right. Increased resistance to enemy fire is nothing worthwhile to enginerr into a battle droid.

and improved the electronics resistance to concussive force, but there is no written record of this happening.

That doesn't seem to keep you from assuming a lot of OTHER stuff that was never written down, either.

However, they are the most logical ways to improve the droid design without changing the visible design itself.

Hogwash. Upgrading the alloys DOES make sense. Improving the electronic resistance to concussive force (which electronics, I might add, aren't all vulnerable to to begin with) doesn't either when the main problem apparently was the mechanical joints giving out under superhuman strength induced stress. Not once in the entire trilogy does a human inflict HtH physical damage to a B1.

There is 'making stuff up' and there is 'reasonable extrapolation', and I'm applying reasonable real-world solutions as probable fixes for fictional canon. I'm not making stuff up out of thin air.

Yes you are, until and unless there is a mention of this actually being the case in the canon. The ONLY modifications made to the B1s are the ones the canon explicitely SAYS were made.
Besides, why the hell would they bother to improve the physical structure especially WRT the joints when the ONLY situation that'd be relevant in would be melee combat, which simply doesn't HAPPEN on a modern, leave alone SW battlefield outside extremely freakish circumstances?

[Batman]

And Lucasfilm went on and on about how cost-conscious and corner-cutting the Trade Feds were?

I assume you have more than thin air to back this up with.

Read the official Star Wars Databank entries on 'Battle Droid'.

Which last I checked isn't particularly canon.

Also apply a smattering of real-world precedent as to what corner-cutting would do to an otherwise adequate mechanical design.

Which isn't, either. Why don't you show us that all those things that might (not would inevitably, you know) have happened actually DID happen in universe, which has a tech and resource base a couple dozen millenia ahead of and several quadrillion times larger than our own.

What I'm imagining is within reasonable extrapolation, because its not out of thin air but within the spirit and intent of discrete baseline material canon.

UNTIL AND UNLESS IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE CANON IT 'IS' OUT OF THIN AIR! Show the quotes!
I couldn't care less what you think the spirit and intent of the canon is. Show me the explicit canon statements that say it is the case.

[General Brock]

You will no doubt a) quote an in-universe source for a)that happening in the first place and b)it affecting, including numbers on to which extent it affected, the quality of the TF army when compared to regular military troops.

The budget-minded Trade Federation cut valuable corners in the production of their ... battle droids.

Motion capture data of highly trained organic soldiers gave the battle droids a array of combat stances, positions, and maneuvers, but the droids themselves were only as strategically capable as their programmers aboard the Droid Control Ship.

SW Databank

My guess is the highly trained organics weren't the programmers aboard the Control Ship and had no say in the software or operator's manual.

Battle droids didn't implement combat maneuvers 'run towards target' and 'duck and cover'. Or maybe they did and their cheap bodies weren't up to the task and defaulted to what they could do.

Not that I see why the alleged physical frailty of the B1s is even relevant.

To the OP no; ite Gungans vs. Borg, not cheap TF battle droids.

[/url]

[Batman]

You will no doubt a) quote an in-universe source for a)that happening in the first place and b)it affecting, including numbers on to which extent it affected, the quality of the TF army when compared to regular military troops.

The budget-minded Trade Federation cut valuable corners in the production of their ... battle droids.

Motion capture data of highly trained organic soldiers gave the battle droids a array of combat stances, positions, and maneuvers, but the droids themselves were only as strategically capable as their programmers aboard the Droid Control Ship.

SW Databank
My guess is the highly trained organics weren't the programmers aboard the Control Ship and had no say in the software or operator's manual.
Battle droids didn't implement combat maneuvers 'run towards target' and 'duck and cover'. Or maybe they did and their cheap bodies weren't up to the task and defaulted to what they could do.

Thank you for completely failing to do what I asked for. The SW databank not only is NOT in-universe but your quoted samples do NOT quantify anything at all. Furthermore, there's not a single peep in there about the battle droids being physically fragile. As for them not being all that strategically capable-I hate to tell you but neither is your average line grunt.

[General Brock]

UNTIL AND UNLESS IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE CANON IT 'IS' OUT OF THIN AIR! Show the quotes!
I couldn't care less what you think the spirit and intent of the canon is. Show me the explicit canon statements that say it is the case.

I'm not going to second-guess Lucasfilm's own Star Wars Databank. If that isn't canon enough for you, too bad because it is for me. I can even imagine a few nifty ways around their 3 million clone galaxy spanning Grand Army.

However, I can't produce quotes I don't have, can't do that level of research, and am not yet convinced I should abandon my line of reasoning which makes for a better Gungan vs Borg scenario within reasonable extrapolation of the most popularly available canon materials.

[Batman]

UNTIL AND UNLESS IT IS SUPPORTED BY THE CANON IT 'IS' OUT OF THIN AIR! Show the quotes!
I couldn't care less what you think the spirit and intent of the canon is. Show me the explicit canon statements that say it is the case.

I'm not going to second-guess Lucasfilm's own Star Wars Databank.

Which doesn't say anything of what you claim it does.

However, I can't produce quotes I don't have, can't do that level of research, and am not yet convinced I should abandon my line of reasoning which makes for a better Gungan vs Borg scenario within reasonable extrapolation of the most popularly available canon materials.

extrapolation which is supported by NOTHING WHATSOEVER
even within the Databank. There's nothing in there supporting your baseless assumption that the TF military was vastly inferior to Republic forces.

[TithonusSyndrome]

An alien with what might be specialized muscles, and even lighter organic composition allowing it to jump high;

Jar Jar wasn't particularly athletic and he could still casually swim to depths few human athletes can without oxygen, which dosen't suggest a light body frame. I'd say Gungans are pretty goddamn strong.

[Cao Cao]

How is the databank proof of anything? It contradicts TPM on this issue. How does a cost-cutting, frugal corporation strike deals with shady men for absolute power then launch planetary blockades and invasions?
In TPM we saw well maintained, fully equipped, well armed, fully staffed giant starships all under the control of the Trade Federation. Not to mention one of the key points in TPM is that large, corrupt organisations like the TF were running rings around the bloated Republic government and making fat profits in the process.

To the OP no; ite Gungans vs. Borg, not cheap TF battle droids.

Don't be dishonest. The entire strength of B-1s issue was brought up because you want to discredit the sole battle we've seen Gungans take part in.

[The Original Nex]

You will of course state your sources for these supposed upgrades. As far as I'm aware they were upgraded to the extent only that they were made more autonomous. Nothing strength-wise.

No such source exists. If it came out in a book or comic, I never read of it.

So you're making things up then.

Generally, the Databank says the droids were improved, specifically mentioned the autonomous brain, and left room for further expansion on the subject.

Ahhh I see. You're taking a passage from the Databank that you feel left the matter of battledroid upgrades open to interpretation, and now you're treating your extrapolations off of that as canon. Well they aren't canon. They're MADE UP CRAP THAT CAME OUT OF YOUR HEAD.

By reasonable extrapolation, improving strength with improved electromagnets was possible. They may have upgraded the body alloys, but there is no reason to, and improved the electronics resistance to concussive force, but there is no written record of this happening. However, they are the most logical ways to improve the droid design without changing the visible design itself.

On what do you base the claim that TPM battle droids were so weak that they needed such upgrades?

There is 'making stuff up' and there is 'reasonable extrapolation', and I'm applying reasonable real-world solutions as probable fixes for fictional canon. I'm not making stuff up out of thin air.

In this case you are making an UNreasonable extrapolation. Why do the battle droids need alloy, and joint upgrades between TPM and AOTC? Because you say so? The TPM battle droids weren't weak, that is your made up claim.

[NecronLord]

I like this brainbug that just because they're a heartless corparation run by the Neiomodian version of 'suits' the Trade Federation can't have anything effective. They supposedly operate at least in part by extortion, and have used their army before; if they're not completely brain dead, they'd want an army that works, not one with 'feeble' droids 'held together by weak mag locks' or whatever.

[haard]

Brock, you honestly don't see the error in this reasoning?

1: Brock: The Gungans will get owned by the Borg since they were owned by the TF
... but they smash up droids HtH, and lost becasue of TF firesupport ... which the Borg don't have.
2: Brock: That's only because the B1:s are weak! Frail! They fall apart!
...but they fought well against the Republic...
3: Brock: They were obviously upgraded in unspecified ways since they were shown weak! After all, some of them were smashed by Gungans!
...but the Gungans are shown to have amazing physique...
4: Brock: Hah! They were defeated by the weak B1:s - they must be weak!!!!1!11one
goto 1

You know, sometimes the guy that's wrong might be you. Seriously. It can happen.

[General Brock]

Brock, you honestly don't see the error in this reasoning?

1: Brock: The Gungans will get owned by the Borg since they were owned by the TF
... but they smash up droids HtH, and lost becasue of TF firesupport ... which the Borg don't have.
2: Brock: That's only because the B1:s are weak! Frail! They fall apart!
...but they fought well against the Republic...
3: Brock: They were obviously upgraded in unspecified ways since they were shown weak! After all, some of them were smashed by Gungans!
...but the Gungans are shown to have amazing physique...
4: Brock: Hah! They were defeated by the weak B1:s - they must be weak!!!!1!11one
goto 1

You know, sometimes the guy that's wrong might be you. Seriously. It can happen.

There is little wrong with my argument.

1. TPM B-1s are low-level constructs applied in the worst possible way. Gungan defeat to such an opponent reveals significant weaknesses in the character and capability of the Gungan military, of a nature potentially exploitable by the Borg.

In fact, a better TF army wouldn't have revealed these weaknesses, because it would have been over too fast to make them apparent. At that range, a squad of Republic regulars would have simply shot out the generator.

You are hung up on the idea that the Gungans have all the elements of the rest of SW experienced spacefaring, space-fighting species. I'm being accused of making stuff up, building on existing canon for a double-fictional VS encounter, but have to expect the Gungans built their scenario lunar colony themselves without having a canon space program at all without Naboo humans? I won't concede on arguments like these.

2. Tangetial assessment of TF droids, used to illustrate poor Gungan fighting ability; interesting but not directly related to the OP:

B-1s do not fight well. Fighting well would mean their 1:1 match to Clones includes being able to match group encounters, since the entire Clone wars was not a series of 1-1 duels.

If a fire team of five battle droids is not an even match for a fire team of 5 clones, that is not fighting well. If B-1 are chaff meant to win with overwhelming numbers, that right there says they are inferior droids regardless of superficial 1:1 stats. Plus, they were built to overwhelm normal organics, not clones.

I'll concede that relative to other droids they are flimsy, but they are not as flimsy in melee against a human or Gungan, and should not have made that assumption.


3. The Gungan is tall, thin, and gangly, not necessarily a physique of strength. If it so important that they be stronger than humans, then so be it. However, there is no reason to expect them to be stronger than Borg, which are also stronger than humans.

None of the additional B-1 upgrades applied to improve the B-1 are outside reason, and I never committed to those as having definitely happened - beyond saying that if I wanted to improve the B-1s, that's what I would change.

4. Battle of Grassy Plain alternate VS scenario:

How did the Gungans fare against B-1s... Overwhelming numbers marched right up to them through their range fire and the only way they could avoid outright slaughter by blaster was to grapple with the leading droids, preventing them from shooting, and by accident more than design, prolonging first rank impediment of fire from trailing ranks.

Borg can stab as well as grapple, their nanites are quickly incapacitating, if the injection isn't completed, the Gungan is still stabbed and bleeding, Borg don't wait in line to take a shot, and although many will be felled by boomers, none will have fallen to deflected fire. Borg don't need ranged support as long as they have numbers.

Borg will take longer to win than the TF droids, doing it all by melee, without doubt. They will take casualties. Though Borg tactics are slow, they are too simple to screw up. It doesn't even matter if a Gungans pick up Borg and tosses them, because they've just opened themselves to being stabbed by another pressing Borg.

The initial lack of Borg range support isn't a problem once the shield beasts get injected with nanites, after which low-powered ST weapons can be used on unarmoured, unshielded Gungans and their animals and Borg can be transported amidst whatever semblance of Gungan ranks remain and Gungans beamed out.

The way things stand with TPM Gungans, they could only win against Borg by accident, luck, and failure of the Borg to swarm, like ST protagonists do. They won't win like the best or even average SW spacefaring species, because they don't fight like those space faring species.

Gungan VS TF revealed poor weapons, depth of training and spontaneous reaction during a planned campaign. A wormhole and Borg appearing right on their doorstep, immediatly commencing hostilities, isn't likely to inspire a better performance. TF droids at least could mow down Borg as fast as they appeared, with just the front rank firing, and Gungans can't even do that much.

[General Brock]

I like this brainbug that just because they're a heartless corparation run by the Neiomodian version of 'suits' the Trade Federation can't have anything effective. They supposedly operate at least in part by extortion, and have used their army before; if they're not completely brain dead, they'd want an army that works, not one with 'feeble' droids 'held together by weak mag locks' or whatever.

Tell that to Lucasfilm. Obviously whomever they deployed against wasn't much better than they were, taken with overwhelming numbers or intimidated into submission.

[General Brock]

>snip<

If you can't tell the difference that's your problem. I'm not giving them a space colony when cononically they didn't even have a space program going without Naboo human help. If I can't say they must have bought what they needed, which is a logical assumption, then I guess they shouldn't have that space colony, using your standard of rigour.