Finally adding to my canon database

[DarkStar]

Picard says "holographic bullets". Therefore, the bullets are holographic. End of discussion.

Ahh... classic "SW lasers are lasers" argument.

You've gotta be kidding me.

The "SW lasers are not lasers" argument is based on the idea that SW lasers do not behave as a laser would. If SW lasers were beams that were invisible unless you were looking right down the barrel, there would be no point to anyone arguing the contrary.

The "bullets were real" argument is based on the wishful thinking of you and others that the bullets were real. There is no way to distinguish visually between whether the bullets were holographic or not . . . that's the whole damn point of a holodeck, to begin with. All we have to go on is Picard's canon dialogue, and he says they are holographic.

So stuff it.

Look, moron. It was YOU who said that "the only distribution is the computer code for the replicator".

Because you were claiming that the weapons had not been mass-produced, and would therefore be unavailable. Your point has been neutralized . . . continued discussion on whether or not the Federation could mass-produce the object is neither required nor desired.

The chain of reasoning has been provided.

Chain of bulshitting would be more accurate, since you based your argument on weak premise and selecting possibility that suits your taste.

Your opinions are irrelevant, as are these "alternate universe" possibilities you keep trying to pass off. Just because I was positing a conjecture based on canon facts does not mean that we can rewrite the canon facts with conjecture, as you wish to do.

Look, imbecile. Lemme' get right through this:

[1.] It is CANON that Picard fired Tommy Gun to the Borg. And it is CANON that the bullets kill them.

True.

[2.] It is CANON that Picard SAID that they are hologram. It is also CANON that in other episodes, holodeck objects STILL EXISTS outside holodeck.

Both true, though the last one is only true sometimes.

[3.] YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON said that the bullets must be holograms and it is *not* possible that those bullets are replicated object.

It is the only interpretation possible, unless you wish to ignore canon dialogue.

Because YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON ignores the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term.

I do not ignore it. I have dismissed it, and explained why.

[4.] Actually, it is possible BOTH ways. It is possible that the bullets are just energy-based holograms, and it is ALSO possible that the bullets are replicated material.

There can be only one. Canon dialogue and logic suggest it is the first.

[6.] If the bullets are pure holograms, it only proved that, by canon source, HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES. But it DIDN'T PROVE that REAL BULLETS will be harmless against Borg drones.

Duh. It simply proves that real bullets have not been fired against the Borg . . . which is all I have ever said about the holographic bullets.

IF HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES, IT DOESN'T PROVE THAT REAL BULLETS CAN'T.

Do you seriously believe that I have argued the contrary?

So what does it mean? It means that EITHER WAY, YOU ARE FUCKED.

No, it doesn't. No projectile weapon has been fired at a Borg . . . this does not imply that I am fucked.

My advice: Next time please find SOLID PROOF to back your claim. If you keep masturbating on your delusion and use the ejaculated cum as foundation to your claim, you'll surely get fucked.

Please be less disgusting in the future. I really don't want to hear you talk about sex. It's bad enough that you might procreate someday, but I don't want to hear you talking about the subject.

[DarkStar]

Nobody claim you claim phasers OPERATE using the same principle as bullets, HypocriteStar.

No, I claimed that KE is a component in bullets and the phaser particle beam. I did not claim that the damage from both is due to that component.

It was YOU who includes your "Phaser" points (3 and 4) to SUPPORT your claim that projectiles cannot hurt the drones, implying that IF drone's shield can resist phaser, THEN they can resist bullets as well, despite the fact that PHASERS and BULLETS hurt their target using different way.

It is not relevant that they hurt the target a different way. If the phaser particle beam has KE and is repulsed by the Borg drone shield, then why do you expect a bullet to behave differently?

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

Picard says "holographic bullets". Therefore, the bullets are holographic. End of discussion.

Ahh... classic "SW lasers are lasers" argument.

You've gotta be kidding me.

The "SW lasers are not lasers" argument is based on the idea that SW lasers do not behave as a laser would. If SW lasers were beams that were invisible unless you were looking right down the barrel, there would be no point to anyone arguing the contrary.

The "bullets were real" argument is based on the wishful thinking of you and others that the bullets were real. There is no way to distinguish visually between whether the bullets were holographic or not . . . that's the whole damn point of a holodeck, to begin with. All we have to go on is Picard's canon dialogue, and he says they are holographic.

So stuff it.

Look, moron. It was YOU who said that "the only distribution is the computer code for the replicator".

Because you were claiming that the weapons had not been mass-produced, and would therefore be unavailable. Your point has been neutralized . . . continued discussion on whether or not the Federation could mass-produce the object is neither required nor desired.

The chain of reasoning has been provided.

Chain of bulshitting would be more accurate, since you based your argument on weak premise and selecting possibility that suits your taste.

Your opinions are irrelevant, as are these "alternate universe" possibilities you keep trying to pass off. Just because I was positing a conjecture based on canon facts does not mean that we can rewrite the canon facts with conjecture, as you wish to do.

Look, imbecile. Lemme' get right through this:

[1.] It is CANON that Picard fired Tommy Gun to the Borg. And it is CANON that the bullets kill them.

True.

[2.] It is CANON that Picard SAID that they are hologram. It is also CANON that in other episodes, holodeck objects STILL EXISTS outside holodeck.

Both true, though the last one is only true sometimes.

[3.] YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON said that the bullets must be holograms and it is *not* possible that those bullets are replicated object.

It is the only interpretation possible, unless you wish to ignore canon dialogue.

Because YOUR INTERPRETATION OF CANON ignores the possibility that Picard was just using simplified term.

I do not ignore it. I have dismissed it, and explained why.

[4.] Actually, it is possible BOTH ways. It is possible that the bullets are just energy-based holograms, and it is ALSO possible that the bullets are replicated material.

There can be only one. Canon dialogue and logic suggest it is the first.

[6.] If the bullets are pure holograms, it only proved that, by canon source, HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES. But it DIDN'T PROVE that REAL BULLETS will be harmless against Borg drones.

Duh. It simply proves that real bullets have not been fired against the Borg . . . which is all I have ever said about the holographic bullets.

IF HOLOGRAPHIC BULLETS CAN KILL BORG DRONES, IT DOESN'T PROVE THAT REAL BULLETS CAN'T.

Do you seriously believe that I have argued the contrary?

So what does it mean? It means that EITHER WAY, YOU ARE FUCKED.

No, it doesn't. No projectile weapon has been fired at a Borg . . . this does not imply that I am fucked.

My advice: Next time please find SOLID PROOF to back your claim. If you keep masturbating on your delusion and use the ejaculated cum as foundation to your claim, you'll surely get fucked.

Please be less disgusting in the future. I really don't want to hear you talk about sex. It's bad enough that you might procreate someday, but I don't want to hear you talking about the subject.

"Duh. It simply proves that real bullets have not been fired against the Borg . . . which is all I have ever said about the holographic bullets."

...and then YOU use that premise as basis to claim that BORG DRONES HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING SO BULLETS AND PROJECTILES WON'T WORK WHILE BAT'LETH AND CLAWS CAN, don't you, HypocriteStar?

So if projectiles have not been fired at the Borg, then the Borg has SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING to resist the bullet. Idiot.

LOGICALLY, even IF it was true that no projectiles haven't been fired at the Borg, it is POSSIBLE that projectiles, which are KE attacks, will hurt the Borg.

Especially since CLAWS and BATLETH hurt the Borg.

Especially since holographic bullets (if they truly are) hurt the Borg, while REAL BULLETS CARRY MORE KE than holographic bullet.


But of course, it doesn't STOP YOU from claiming that Borg drones have selective KE shield is MORE REASONABLE than the drones don't have Ke shield.

Worse, yet you haven't provided a SINGLE PROOF, A SINGLE EPISODE where the Borg has SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING.

You just CANNOT SEE other possibilities, and only take posibilities that suit your purpose. Thus your pathetic thoughts:
IF PROJECTILES NEVER BEEN USED AGAINST THE BORG, THEN THEY HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING. THAT'S WHY PROJECTILES ARE USELESS AGAINST THE BORG.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

PS:

Dear HypocriteStar, you need *proof* as basis to select the most likely possibility. Yet you have none. You cannot point to AT LEAST one episode that shows that Borg drones have selective KE shielding.

Instead, you choose the possibility that support your claim, using counter induction tactics and ignore other possibilities you don't like.

Even if it's true that no projectiles have been fired at the Borg before, how can it automatically translate that Borg has selective KE shielding?

How can it automatically translate that projectiles are ineffective against the Borg while claws and batleth can?



See? That's why you are being flamed. That's why IMO, you're an IDIOT.

So hereby, I declare that DARKSTAR IS AN IDIOT

[DarkStar]

"Duh. It simply proves that real bullets have not been fired against the Borg . . . which is all I have ever said about the holographic bullets."

...and then YOU use that premise as basis to claim that BORG DRONES HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING SO BULLETS AND PROJECTILES WON'T WORK WHILE BAT'LETH AND CLAWS CAN, don't you, HypocriteStar?

Along with several other premises from the canon, yes. How does that demonstrate hypocrisy?

You just CANNOT SEE other possibilities, and only take posibilities that suit your purpose.

I'm afraid the only bias here is yours. I have explained my rationale at length to you, but THEN you ***keep making*** stupid ARGUMENTS featuring ***RANDOM*** capitalization and asterisks, and so on.

Thus your pathetic thoughts:
IF PROJECTILES NEVER BEEN USED AGAINST THE BORG, THEN THEY HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING. THAT'S WHY PROJECTILES ARE USELESS AGAINST THE BORG.

And the above is proof that you are a sad, pathetic liar, willing to utterly and completely misrepresent arguments.

[Kreshna Aryaguna Nurzaman]

"Duh. It simply proves that real bullets have not been fired against the Borg . . . which is all I have ever said about the holographic bullets."

...and then YOU use that premise as basis to claim that BORG DRONES HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING SO BULLETS AND PROJECTILES WON'T WORK WHILE BAT'LETH AND CLAWS CAN, don't you, HypocriteStar?

Along with several other premises from the canon, yes. How does that demonstrate hypocrisy?

You just CANNOT SEE other possibilities, and only take posibilities that suit your purpose.

I'm afraid the only bias here is yours. I have explained my rationale at length to you, but THEN you ***keep making*** stupid ARGUMENTS featuring ***RANDOM*** capitalization and asterisks, and so on.

Thus your pathetic thoughts:
IF PROJECTILES NEVER BEEN USED AGAINST THE BORG, THEN THEY HAVE SELECTIVE KE SHIELDING. THAT'S WHY PROJECTILES ARE USELESS AGAINST THE BORG.

And the above is proof that you are a sad, pathetic liar, willing to utterly and completely misrepresent arguments.

Two questions:
1. Can you provide a SINGLE EPISODE that shows the drones have selective KE shielding?
2. Do you have OTHER premise rather than "real bullets have not been fired against the Borg" and "drones can interact with the environment" to support your selective KE shield bullshit?

WELL, MORON???

[TheDarkling]

Wong: Actually my weird response was me asking why I doth protest to much since I said the argument was going nowhere and you will notice it has.

I also want to know when Startrek started obeying Newtonian physics .

We saw Worf with his shield (may/may not have been real bullets) and we know that starfleet has persnoal forcefields, with both of these in mind why cant the Borg also have them (Im not saying they do Im just curious of why you think the two instances different).

[Darth Wong]

Wong: Actually my weird response was me asking why I doth protest to much since I said the argument was going nowhere and you will notice it has.

Ah.

I also want to know when Startrek started obeying Newtonian physics .

Every time somebody hits a Borg drone with something, I believe we are seeing Newtonian physics in action. Starships may have ways to counteract certain effects, but a drone is not a starship, and the burden of proof falls upon anyone who would claim that it is, not those who point out that it is not.

We saw Worf with his shield (may/may not have been real bullets) and we know that starfleet has persnoal forcefields, with both of these in mind why cant the Borg also have them (Im not saying they do Im just curious of why you think the two instances different).

Worf's personal shield deflected zero-momentum holographic bullets (as you and Darkstar keep pointing out, although neither of you seems to recognize that this makes the bullet easier to stop, not harder). That's not the same thing as deflecting a real, physical bullet. Moreover, Worf's personal shield had clear line of sight to the bullet, while Borg drone personal shielding is known to be generated by in-body implants (see "The Raven") which must project defensive shields through solid flesh; not necessarily a good thing if you wish to project a field which repels matter.

And finally, despite all the handwaving, observation really does trump theory. The fact is that we have observed no Borg particle shielding despite numerous incidents where it would have been very useful, and Darkstar's pathetic argument that they selectively shield only against physical attacks other than the ones we've seen is simply laughable, and everyone besides him (including you, hopefully) knows it.

[TheDarkling]

I have taken a look at the Raven entry but the thing is we cant be sure the shield is generated by implants, sadly I have never seen Seven nude so I cant guess at how much of her exoskeleton remains (we know she has at least some remaining and the implants reactivting could have been a power coinsideration or processing one not necessariliy pointing to the fact that the implants are also the shield emitter).

There is also the fact htat KE shielding may be a seperate function to energy shielding or that only tac drones have the ability and so on.

Your point about the Borg not using KE shielding when its useful (examples please since FC does seem to be a bit shakey) can just as easily be turned around to say, Why dont the Feds use the projectile weapon (like Darkstar has pointed out) or why didnt Seven expert on the Borg telll them about this fatal Borg flaw when they were planning for the many Borg suicide missions they kept going on.

I also realise that a momentumless bullett would be easier to stop but Darkstar has his explanation for that but it could easily be that the Borg lagged slightly in adapting (activating KE shields) or that the drones in question didnt have KE shielding (only Tac drones maybe??).

I just dont think there is enough to work with either way to come to a conclusion since iots based on guessing for the most part.

My personal gripe with Borg shields (from Voy onwards) is that the shield only appears around the Torso which is where SF "troops" always shoot, why not try the legs or the head? since they each seem to have individual generators (if the head/legs have cover at all).

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, just out of curiosity, how specific do you think that Borg adaptation is? In other words, do you think that the Borg can adapt to all .45 caliber weapons after they are hit by one, or do you think that the Borg must adapt seperately for each gun because of the minute imperfections along the barrel of the weapon and how they alter the ballistics of the weapon slightly?

And I STILL have not received any PM's about my offer, DarkStar. I'll have to make sure that everything is alright with my account.

[TheDarkling]

MOO why dont you have a show down with darkstar? you debate each of his pages and see who wins on a point by point setup.
Like post a thread every few days about one page and the two of you hammer it out although the spam fest would have to be limited by the mods.

[SirNitram]

MOO why dont you have a show down with darkstar? you debate each of his pages and see who wins on a point by point setup.
Like post a thread every few days about one page and the two of you hammer it out although the spam fest would have to be limited by the mods.

I think that's what we've been doing. We've certainly done it with his 'silver bullet' nonsense.

[Ryoga]

That would be amusing. But, I'm going to have to stick to my original suggestion that we Stop Feeding the Troll (Tm). It's not like he's even listening to anyone, anyway.

-Ryoga, who is looking for a 'Stop Feeding the Troll' graphic right now.

[SirNitram]

Amusingly, Dark Star is as predictable as Newtonian Physics, without actually understanding any Newtonian Physics.

[TheDarkling]

Not really you havent attacked his site on a page by page basis it was just a big jumble that turned into a flame fest, it needs to a one on one battle so its plain and clear exactly whats going on.

A one on one battle wil at least come closer to solving the situation plus it would be good in that it would at least put somethnig interesting on the board.

[SirNitram]

Not really you havent attacked his site on a page by page basis it was just a big jumble that turned into a flame fest, it needs to a one on one battle so its plain and clear exactly whats going on.

A one on one battle wil at least come closer to solving the situation plus it would be good in that it would at least put somethnig interesting on the board.

Darkling, look over when MoO went over each of his posts and demonstrated his stupidity. That was a one on one.. And what happened? It became a flame fest because Dark Star is a troll.

[TheDarkling]

No that was all over the place and it wasnt one on one, Darkstar can fly off at a tangent and say some unprovable things but I didnt see his entire site discredited in fact didnt the argument devolve into wyhat a screen cap showed or something along those lines.

A one on one show down would be much easier to judge (It wouldnt allow Darkstar to dodge poijnts as you accuse him of doing for a start but it also wouldnt allow the mass repeating of arguments hes defeated that he claims).

The fact that every single argument he turns up in invovles people saying they have already beaten him and he denies it shows that it needs a final show down.

One on One neither side has anywhere to hide, MOO said he would tear apart the site one piece at a time if asked and im sure Darkstar would defend himself, it just requires everyone to stay off that thread and simply make a commentary thread where they can discuss/flame the debate.

[Cpt_Frank]

Darkling, though there were also other posters on that thread that was in the late state and they merely repeated what MoO had already said several times, they brought in new elements.
Of course you could ask MoO if he'd still like to destroy DS in an exclusive thread (but I doubt it since that's already been anyway).

[SirNitram]

Darkling, while your optimism is recignized, it's useless. There will be no final showdown, because every time someone slams down a well-polished, refined, airtight rebuttal to him, he just spits out more bullshit and keeps his fingers plugged in his ears. He is, if you know of the famous Troll Types, a 'Stone Deaf'.

It'd be nice to think that he'd conceed when faced with solid opposition, but he's already lost all his arguments, but won't see it. There can be no such confrontation with an opponent, literally, too stupid to lose.

[Master of Ossus]

To be honest, everyone, I'm tired of just going after DarkStar. He's too easy to defeat in the eyes of everyone else, but too difficult to defeat in his own eyes to make it worth my while.

Darkling, if you go back and read the thread, you will see how badly I destroyed his points. Around page 15 or 16, IIRC, I got so pissed off at him that I went back and made about a page and a half of basically straight rebuttals of what he was saying. After that, I figured I had won, and so I stopped posting for a while. You can imagine my astonishment when I came back and found that DarkStar had actually tried to defend himself against my attack! After it became clear that he was ignoring many of my rebuttals, especially those I made against his own counter-attacks, I decided to try to repeat my performance again. This time, I made another page or two of rebuttals, but again he refused to concede defeat. At that point I kind of realized that DarkStar could never be beaten into either admitting defeat or even conceding a few points, and for the first time I realized that I could not crush him merely by turning another screw. I kind of withdrew from the debate at that point, as it seemed that everyone else was moving to deal with him and I really felt that he was as exposed in his position as he was ever going to be, so I really had nothing else to lend the debate.

I came back once, when I figured it would be funny to do the LotR parody, but for the most part I left him alone after that, and then the thread was closed after nearly hitting the 40 page mark.

The problem is, Darkling, that DarkStar is not a rational debater. I can easily defeat his points, but I cannot defeat him. A one-on-one battle, while I am sure it would be amusing, would not and could not make an impact on him. If you go back and examine the thread "Ripping Apart DarkStar's Cowardly Attempt to Avoid Criticism," it will quickly become apparent who won the debate, but DarkStar refused to admit defeat on ANY level. It was exactly this refusal that eventually forced him to claim that SW and RL humans are not the same.

Now, I figure that perhaps Mike Wong has a CHANCE of beating him into submission, but I cannot do it. His inability to debate in a reasonable and responsible manner makes him invincible to standard debating tactics and evidence. Since I came to that conclusion I have limited myself, more or less, to ensuring that nobody actually believes what he says, but since I cannot defeat him anyway I have really not gone on the offensive. I think it would be a waste of time.

[seanrobertson]

To be honest, everyone, I'm tired of just going after DarkStar. He's too easy to defeat in the eyes of everyone else, but too difficult to defeat in his own eyes to make it worth my while.

In that case, talk to me, man. I felt the subject matter of this
thread, Michael's updates to the C.D., was interesting enough
as it was w/out talking about kinetic energy shielding

[SirNitram]

Indeed. I'm sure there's some good, debatable things in here. Like the PKer beam. These screenshots will help me determine it's raw energy and effective energy ALOT easier....

But Dark Star has become one of Ka'na'di's warriors, now. Even the most powerful Flame Warriors have only one tool against one so chosen: The Killfile.

Mind you, it'd be fun to ressuect the Galatec and forge a RSA FAQ, but I am going way off on a Final Flamewar tangent.

[Master of Ossus]

Sorry, everyone. I got pissed off at him in page 18 of the thread I referenced before. I was already destroying him, at that point in the debate, but that's when I really tried to thrash him.

[Darth Wong]

Sorry, everyone. I got pissed off at him in page 18 of the thread I referenced before. I was already destroying him, at that point in the debate, but that's when I really tried to thrash him.

People like that are completely immune to logical debate. They can only be deconstructed in front of others, preferably after you give them lots of time to make fools of themselves with their hastily constructed, poorly thought-out arguments.

Darkstar's behaviour is almost precisely identical to that of Graham Kennedy, back when he was a big ASVS participant. Same thing; he would constantly claim that everyone else was drowning under the weight of his evidence and arguments, and it didn't matter that this bore no resemblance to the truth; he kept saying it.

[Spanky The Dolphin]

You'd think that eventually the fact that no one else agrees with them at all would clue them in to the fact that they're wrong.

I seriously cannot (swear to God) understand why people like DarkStar cannot ever admit that they're wrong. If I'm wrong, no matter how much it pisses me off, I admit that I was wrong. Truth and facts are more importent to me than whether my opinion is winning or loosing the debate. The lengths that DarkStar goes to to defend his points is incomprehensible to me.