Subspace Transporters?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 01:27pm

First they could use it for transporting cargo and even Sd.net says thaat it isnt a simple cloning procedure because a person energy is needed to rematerealise (its suggested its some form of exotic matter) so its more than data transfer and rebuilding this exotic matter is necessary.

Already Answered.

That wasnt normal back ground radiation else transporter couldnt have been used to beam to any planet.

Nice job of cut and pasting from Sd.net - the transformer by deduction must have been powerful since normal energy output doesnt block a transporter.

Since the Empire cares so much for the safety of their troops im sure the reactor is comletely shielded so this radiator wont be a problem.

The transporter in question was a) Klingon b) about 100 years behind current time c) working on next to no power

As for Tin man the conclusion on SD.net is flawed - Tinman was used as a ship and it pocessed its own transporter thus it WAS designed to block transporters - please think before you simply cut and paste.

Already Answered.

Already Answered.

The DS had a large number of jammers in a small space and would thus jam better.

Just because it generate more power doesnt mean it jamming is alot more powerful and since a fighters comms can ober come it we need figures on a fighters power core and its comms ability.

Already Answered.

I didnt say you were being dishonest just not objective and coming into the argument with a conclusion already formed.
However you do choose to interpret things in a rather obtuse manner wether you dont understand what im saying or choose not to im not sure.

Im not mad at all im not the one who has had an angry outburst on this thread - Imperial ships may be more powerful and Transporters carry out a function and thus arent worthless.

Post by **Mr Bean** » 2002-07-07 01:30pm

I'll quote since I have no idea what your talking about as its on the start of a new page and thus we have no friggin clue what your talking about

The DS had a large number of jammers in a small space and would thus jam better.

Jammers can interfear with each other

Oh did you understand what I wrote?
They had to go into the Trench because the Trench blocked out most of the Jamming that would have made the intake shot impossible with the Targeting computer

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 01:41pm

Yes I did and I already answered it but because you have been civil unlike some others Ill type it out again.

The subspace comms werent blocked even outside the trench - relation to subspace transporters.

The sensors (not believed to subspace based) were blocked outside the trench meaning that the sensor jamming is more powerful than the comms jamming.
However if the sensor jamming doesnt affect subspace it has no relevance to the discussion.

Sorry about it being on a new page didnt realise however the answers are still pretty self contained.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 02:22pm

You'll provide the quote that says subspace comms weren't touched, I'm sure.

(HINT FOR THE STUPID: The only jamming mentioned is sensor jamming, thus making targetting difficult, and preventing them from picking up the TIE's without visual)

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 02:31pm

Thus no comms jamming? so comms jamming isnt standard meaning that subspace is unaffected - have you become unbiased all of a sudden?

We either assume comm jamming was happening and the X wing over came it or that it wasnt in use meaning that it isnt standard imperial procedure.

Watch the films ANH - subspace comms are used to contact other ships in the fleet and Yavin so the comms system of the x wing has more power than the comms jamming of the death star - if any comms jamming is going on.

In that statement you put to conflicting arguments - please pick one instead of just trying to disprove the subtrans works honestly try to reason out if it would work - you take two assumtions which are mutally exclusive.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 03:09pm

Where is your proof the comms between Yavin and the fighters were Subspace? That is my first question.

The sensor jamming was common, though, and if you can't scan a target, you can't transport to it(Reference being the episodes I quoted, but you just ignored largely, and made up lame excuses about otherwise..).

Well, I'm bored, so let's consider if your insane ideas were right, okay?

Subtrans works. It can transport anywhere within a Federation Starships sensor range(3 LY, I think it is).

Imperial Starships can detect things a few hundred LY off, so you have zero element of surprise.

The Imperial ship will probably align itself to come stage a beatdown, so you'll be hard pressed to get the angle right for transporting into the hangar.

There must be none of the common radiation that stops transporters anywhere in the intervening three lightyears.

There must be minimal wiring in the hangar(YEA! RIGHT!), because electromagnetic fields and power transformers block transporters.

The Federation Starship must scan the Star Destroyer to be able to transport accurately. But due to the neutronium content of their hulls, they won't be able to scan(Ref: TOS The Doomsday Machine, and the TNG episode with an Iconian building).

The Star Destroyer must not move enough that the Starship losses it's clear LOS to the hangar bay.

The Subtrans must actually work(Remember, Geordi calls it Unreliable. You hate that line, but it's Canon).

Yay, you've deployed a kiloton-level explosion into a hangar. Now the ISD has lost it's fighter complement, and is now pissed off at you.

"WAH WAH TARGET THE BRIDGE WAH WAH"

The bridge is armoured with neutronium, and has enough electronics to present enough power to disrupt transport, if a simple power transformer can.

WAH WAH SPECIAL TRANSFORMER.

It can't be that powerful, a human stood underneath it.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 03:38pm

Let's start with a subspace radio - Lukes X wing in HTTE.
If no one uses subspace comms then blcoking wouldnt be important - you argue against this point so I assuming its still in use on xwings but it may not be.

Blind transporting is possible if you are beaming to the enemy ship and not from - those references prove that beaming up needs scanning - the reference to blind transporting is on the first page.

As you proved the transformer blocks the scanners.

I dont hate the line and have explained it.

Im not sure of your kilotons figure I have heard anywhere in the range from 128MT down to 800 KT but the most common figure was 12 MT, remeber however that torps need not be the thing transported in - the bombs wouldnt need guidance or populsion thus that could be extra space for explosive.

How far underneath the transformer was she? and you pointed out that he couldnt get a lock, seems to be a sensor problem, Sd.net also asserts proof that beaming into an area is easier than beaming out.

You assert that EM fields block transport yet the enterprise could transport people aboard a Borg vessel which has an em field - (Ref Best of both worlds).

Im still not sure on the Imp sensors see for 100s of LYs why did the Slave control fleet (Cant remember exact name) from the Thrawn trilogy remain hidden for so long?

As for armor that is a concession because we just dont know what would happen, using the hangar etc is a worst case situation.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 03:50pm

Just reread you qoutes almost all of them were sensor problems and beaming up problems.

Apart from the two radiations which seemed to be a transporter problem not a sensor problem.

One additional thing on SW sensors - sitting in front of a star can block them - Ref (Vector Prime).

This example is asuming minal output of energy but as you have pointed out star fleet ships are many orders of magnitude below ST ships on a power scale.

However the issue is not wether the imp ships could spot ST ships - you are talking tactical application I simple postulate that Subtrans can penetrate jamming and shields of Imp vessels.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 04:04pm

Which is my problem. You have no proof they operate better under jamming conditions than a normal transporter, you just use one of Geordi's quotes to encompass all things, not hyperbole that means 'We're shit outta luck, bossman, cause this ship can't stop it'.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 04:19pm

I have proof that subspace comms jamming doesnt affect it, going by Geordis claim - I only state he cant think of anything that would stop it I dont say Nothing can stop it since Geordi doesnt know all.

I also have proof that subspace comm jamming either doesnt occur or is not as strong as sensor jamming in the SW universe.

Just be objective and say you cant think of a reason it wouldnt work apart from the radiation and Armor.

Non of which is a problem for plannetary use.

I care here asking will it work?

I admitted Armor may prevent it however this does negate its use.
Jammers dont fit the bill.
I dont think the radiation would affect the transporter either because it would be shielded however I asked for information on this and it seems such wasnt forthcoming.
If I am correct and the Hyperonic radiation is from the episode The Ensigns of command then it is toxic to humans and as such the reactor would be shielded to prevent leakage thus it cant disrupt the transporter.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 04:29pm

Please present proof subspace comm jamming doesn't occour. Please. You will need to prove subspace comms were in use at Yavin.

As for why it won't work on planets?

Planetary Shields.

Planetary Generators.

Power lines and transformers.

Thunderstorms.

Radiation from the planet's star.

That's why.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 04:35pm

It was a special star occurance - like the one that melted an ISD.

Already dealt with the Em thing.

Shields already dealt with.

Thuderstorms - once again unusual occurance and thuderstorms arent 24/7 could I have a quote and ref on the thunderstorm before I rebut it further.

Subspace jamming - X wings use Subspace comms.

A major battle and subspace comms arent used? then the conclusion is subspace comms arent a part of warfare and thus arent jammed.

You said that subspace comms arent a backup system have you changed your mind now?

Even you cant accept the arguments you are putting forward - you know every star doesnt stop a transporter so why put it forward? it seems very silly to do so and it seems that its just there to bulk up your argument.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 04:42pm

Wow, could you possibly actually reference where you 'Already Answered' everything?

Normal transporters put the ship in Geosync orbit or lower. Subspace transporters must travel much, much further, to use it's vaunted abilities. Therefore it must travel through much, much more radiation, and not be protected by the planet it's transporting to. Get it?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 04:51pm

Ref Suspicions - Transport can not occur 1/300 AU from a sun. - not many planets got that close to their suns do they?

We know the Transporter works over at least 300 Billion Km in a planetary system so the radiation cant have that big an effect but yes you are right solar radiation may reduce the range but it doesnt destroy the advantage.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 04:59pm

300,000,000,000Km Vs. normal 40,000Km range. Yes, there will be a LOT MORE RADIATION OVER THAT AREA. Especially since the transmittor will be well away from the protection the planet offers from radiation.

You really are bone-headed. You interperate claims that subspace comms not being used for in-system comms(When they're FTL, and therefore better for theatre use) as being backup.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 05:04pm

It worked over that range - accept it.

The fact is the ships need only be at a range 10 km outside the range of planetary defence weapons.

Hyper comms are the principle theatre use comms as I have already proved.

SirNitram · Post by **SirNitram** » 2002-07-07 05:35pm

You didn't prove anything regarding hypercomm.. They're strategic. Subspace is the next lowest, then electromagnetic for in-system use. If you have proof otherwise state your source, bitchtits. I tire of your misdirection.

Only at a range of 10Km outside the range of the defense guns? Okay. The max range of a turbolaser appears to be >10million Km(Ref: Calc's using Behind The Magic CD-ROM and the SWTJ), forcing the transporter to work at long range.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-07 05:49pm

I will quote the reference I have, Im not sure on the validity its a Star wars RPG core book page 174 - "A variety of communication systems exist, all ships use at least one"

The three listed types are -Holonet Transceiver, Hypertransceiver and subspace transciever.

Under subspace transciever -"most starships have a subspace transciever for emergency signals" - EMERGENCY AS IN BACKUP, not standard.

Under HyperTransciever - " military vessels have these" - Implying that these are are he principle comms.

Second time I have shown evidence please take the time to read the thread before you respond again.

300 Billion > 10 Million

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-08 07:29am

TheDarkling wrote:Ref Suspicions - Transport can not occur 1/300 AU from a sun. - not many planets got that close to their suns do they?

We know the Transporter works over at least 300 Billion Km in a planetary system so the radiation cant have that big an effect but yes you are right solar radiation may reduce the range but it doesnt destroy the advantage.

This is interesting. If solar radiation at 1/300 AU can disrupt transport (I am unsure of this, but you appear quite confident), then it is likely that even strong modern day comm activity, let alone jamming, would be able to disrupt transport signals (this appears unsupported by on screen evidence), which would explain why almost anything old thing will block transporter signals.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-08 10:17am

IDMR: Except that we have seen them beam to worlds that are below their level of technology and probably still use ours.

In looking at the database it seems most of the transporter problems they have are due to sensors, which isnt surprising scanning someone at an atomic level from 40,000km away probably wouldnt take much to disrupt sensors that finely tuned.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-08 11:01am

TheDarkling wrote:IDMR: Except that we have seen them beam to worlds that are below their level of technology and probably still use ours.

In looking at the database it seems most of the transporter problems they have are due to sensors, which isnt surprising scanning someone at an atomic level from 40,000km away probably wouldnt take much to disrupt sensors that finely tuned.

I know, hence I said that it appeared to be unsupported by on screen evidence. Indeed, if transporting is so easily disrupted, going to and from an ST planet, ship or station would be nigh impossible.

However, the question still stands, may we have a fuller description of the solar disruption of transportation phenomenon? The exact reason is important, because whether it disrupts sensors or the actual transportation mechanism is the congent point here.

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-08 11:30am

It seems to be sensor related because we once again get the "cant get a lock" thing.

Season 6, Ep# 148: "Suspicions"

PICARD: Mister Worf, can we beam him out of there?
WORF: The solar radiation is interfering... he must be at least five-hundred thousand kilometers from the star before we can get a transporter lock.

IDMR · Post by **IDMR** » 2002-07-08 11:41am

TheDarkling wrote:It seems to be sensor related because we once again get the "cant get a lock" thing.

Season 6, Ep# 148: "Suspicions"

PICARD: Mister Worf, can we beam him out of there?
WORF: The solar radiation is interfering... he must be at least five-hundred thousand kilometers from the star before we can get a transporter lock.

Hmmm. Curious. I shall run some calculations, but the intensity of solar radiation at that range should not be significant... But the phrasing is somewhat vague - five hundred thousand kilometers from the star? Which part of the star?

Umm, could anybody who had seen the episode do some scaling?

TheDarkling · Post by **TheDarkling** » 2002-07-08 11:45am

That is true - the part of the star does come into question especially since the shuttle with the person they were trying to beam was heading into the star (If Im thinking about the correct episode) in the first ever test of metaphasic shielding which allows ships to a enter star as seen in Descent (Part 2 I think).