Klingons with X-Wings

[brianeyci]

No evidence that it doesn't, either. And your evidence comes from a completely non-canon source.

I already conceded that.

Bzzt. Wrong. They use subspace sensors as per the EGWT if nothing else. I mentioned that earlier, you know.

Acronym for what? CGT sensors? Is EGWT a combat system?

And sensors. You obviously HAVEN'T read what I posted.

Not combat sensors.

I don't have to.You already did by giving them EO sensors.

EO sensors which are used to see targets within human eye visual range. Show me X-Wings shooting shit at hundreds of thousands of kilometers, or even thousands of kilometers.

No they don't. That was photorps for the Phoenix and an undefined weapon system for the Cardies.

Photo lock-on, until you have evidence the script was wrong we assume the actors are competent and said photo rather than photon. And the photo lock-on has nothing to do with the Phoenix and everything to do with a totally different DS9 episode. Cardies example was just to show existence of jamming. I can show other examples where all sensors are jammed.

Not should. Do. That's the nature of beam weapons.

No limits fallacy, a beam weapon does not by its nature have infinite accurate range.

Because there's no evidence of Trek jamming optical targeting systems. And that's assuming they are the only kind X-Wings have.

It is reasonable to assume that they do since it does not make rational sense why in one case a ship can fire on a small 3 meter squared target from fifty meters and in another case cannot hit a ship the size of the Equinox.

Standard kit X-Wings. Until you provide evidence of X-Wings fighting without ECM at thousands of kilometers, too bad. How hard is it to find one example? A single example?

What abstract EO idea? What quantification? 20 KT per second burst if not sustained, 4-figure-g accelleration. When exactly have you shown Trek hit Spitfire-size targets accellerating at 1000s of g's?

I've already shown that phasers can move at 1/3 c. It is 4 KT per second shot. You have not quantified how accurate X-Wing firepower would be at thousands of kilometer ranges. I have -- 18k km of an X-Wing sized target from the side profile at 100% accuracy assuming the phaser can hit before the X-Wing moves, supported by the 1/3 c phaser figure. You have no numbers for accuracy except what you think is going to happen. Nor have you shown X-Wings fighting at this thousands of kilometer distance.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Because of the jamming of theDeath Star. Next.

Oh btw thought of an easy one. Slave-1 chasing MF.

Brian

[brianeyci]

If you want to wank with your "thousands of g's" comment, I can wank warp strafing too Batman. Want me to?

WORF
(thinking out loud)
If the Jem'Hadar could be forced
to drop out of warp for only ten
minutes... they would not have
time to catch up with us before
we rendezvous with the Defiant.

MARTOK
A fine theory, but how do we
execute it?

Another beat and then Worf has his plan.

WORF
We could disrupt their warp
fields with an inverse graviton
burst. That would force them to
drop to impulse until the
gravitons dissipated.

So there we have a canon reason why fleets form up in large battle lines and do not use warp to their advantage very often. Worf is trained by Starfleet. Fleets probably have dedicated ships to do this "inverse graviton burst", meaning everybody has to stay sublight. We see single ships fighting in warp, but never whole fleets. Another possible explaination is warp power diverted to the shields and weapons. Both of which would not be inapplicable/not be necessary, given that capital ships already enjoy an appreciable advantage in firepower and shielding.

Suffice it to say, Klingon piloted X-Wings wouldn't have this kind of technology if they were doing hit and run on their own rather than screening capital ships like I suggest.

So, that's 1.37e5g. Maybe I'll just be annoying like you and keep repeating this number even though there's no evidence Trek can hit ships at this speed. Get the point?

Brian

[Batman]

Bzzt. Wrong. They use subspace sensors as per the EGWT if nothing else. I mentioned that earlier, you know.

Acronym for what? CGT sensors? Is EGWT a combat system?

Brian, if you don't know what EGWT stands for you propably shouldn't be debating here. It's the 'Essential Guide to Vehicles and Weapons' for Wars equipment. Around here, having seen the OT simply doesn't cut it.

And sensors. You obviously HAVEN'T read what I posted.

Not combat sensors.

Fine, I conceed.

I don't have to.You already did by giving them EO sensors.

EO sensors which are used to see targets within human eye visual range

And wrong again. Those sensors enable them to hit maneuvering Spitfire-size targets at 1-2 km ranges. Human eye my ass.

No they don't. That was photorps for the Phoenix and an undefined weapon system for the Cardies.

Photo lock-on, until you have evidence the script was wrong we assume the actors are competent and said photo rather than photon.

The second you can prove that is what was actually said on the show.
Because my version makes a hell of a lot more sense than yours.

And the photo lock-on has nothing to do with the Phoenix and everything to do with a totally different DS9 episode. Cardies example was just to show existence of jamming. I can show other examples where all sensors are jammed.

I don't doubt you can. What you CAN'T do is show that the Feds actualy use visual sensors in the first place.

Not should. Do. That's the nature of beam weapons.

No limits fallacy, a beam weapon does not by its nature have infinite accurate range.

I didn't say a word about accurate. I said it had infinte range, and I showed Wars X-Wing targeting is sufficient to hit Trek ships outside effective phaser range. Therefore they can pound on Trek capships with impunity.

Because there's no evidence of Trek jamming optical targeting systems. And that's assuming they are the only kind X-Wings have.

It is reasonable to assume that they do since it does not make rational sense why in one case a ship can fire on a small 3 meter squared target from fifty meters and in another case cannot hit a ship the size of the Equinox

.
It also doesn't make rational sense to replace reasonably ergonomic sidearms (TOS phasers) with utterly unaimable ones (TNG phasers). Yet they did it.
Furthermore, as visual sensors work by sight, we should have []seen[/i] the jamming. We never do. There is no visual jamming in Trek.

What abstract EO idea? What quantification? 20 KT per second burst if not sustained, 4-figure-g accelleration. When exactly have you shown Trek hit Spitfire-size targets accellerating at 1000s of g's?

I've already shown that phasers can move at 1/3 c.

No you haven't. Not that I see how phaser propagation speed has anything to do with it's tracking capabilities.

It is 4 KT per second shot.

As evidenced by what, exactly? Single-figure KT per bolt, 20 bolts per second as Coonor pointed out to me in another thread for X-Wings. 20KT per second at the very least.

You have not quantified how accurate X-Wing firepower would be at thousands of kilometer ranges.

I never claimed X-Wings would attack from thousands of kilometre ranges.
Just outside effective phaser range. Which at best is 18km following your ludicrous reasoning. Oh, and against largly imobile targets like Fed capships they DO have that range.

I have -- 18k km of an X-Wing sized target from the side profile at 100% accuracy assuming the phaser can hit before the X-Wing moves, supported by the 1/3 c phaser figure.

Both of which are unsupported, and there is no reason to assume the X-Wing would close this far.

You have no numbers for accuracy except what you think is going to happen. Nor have you shown X-Wings fighting at this thousands of kilometer distance

.
If you choose to ignore basic physics that's not my problem.

[Batman]

Because of the jamming of theDeath Star. Next.

Oh btw thought of an easy one. Slave-1 chasing MF.
Brian

Which never happened. Next.

[Batman]

If you want to wank with your "thousands of g's" comment, I can wank warp strafing too Batman. Want me to?
SNIPPY

Not only does this not say beans abour Warp strafing but I fail to see what this has to do with their accuracy.

Suffice it to say, Klingon piloted X-Wings wouldn't have this kind of technology if they were doing hit and run on their own rather than screening capital ships like I suggest.

Sorry if I'm being dense but what? They have X-Wings. Therefore they have hyperdrive and KT scale weapons/shields. I honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

So, that's 1.37e5g. Maybe I'll just be annoying like you and keep repeating this number even though there's no evidence Trek can hit ships at this speed. Get the point?
Brian

You ARE aware that you're using a thread that implies impulse is FTL, right?

[SirNitram]

Brian, does your brain comprehend the difference between 'Canonical rating, in plain language' and 'Statements that can be made into excuses to maybe justify something with no evidence AT ALL'?

[Duken]

Bzzt. Wrong. They use subspace sensors as per the EGWT if nothing else. I mentioned that earlier, you know.

Acronym for what? CGT sensors? Is EGWT a combat system?

Brian, if you don't know what EGWT stands for you propably shouldn't be debating here. It's the 'Essential Guide to Vehicles and Weapons' for Wars equipment. Around here, having seen the OT simply doesn't cut it.

Batman: No, it's the Essential Guide to Weapons Technology.
Brian: CGT = Crystal Grav Trap, cloak detector.

[Steven Snyder]

I didn't put combat in front of the word sensor in my initial post. Do you think I really meant "SW ships will always be jammed" even during missions where there was no combat going on? I'm silly sometimes, but not that silly. I'm sorry I created the confusion.

Is it what you said, now you are ignoring that because you can't back it up. Concession Accepted. Now do you understand why long-range sensors would be put on an X-Wing? No you won't, because that goes against your original premise, even though I have kicked the legs out from under your argument, you still hold to it.

What the fuck are combat sensors anyway? Sensors that only detect combat?

Sensors linked to your fire control systems and used to target enemy craft rather than your navigational computer.

Oh right, so only 'combat sensors' are useful for combat, and 'other sensors' are only useful for navigational system. What the fuck are you smoking?

So now you are claming that a small smugglers vessel has powerful ECM that can jam the sensors of combat fighters. The burden of proof is on you.

Easy. ANH, TIE fighters closing into visual range of MF.

Or maybe the MF was between the Fighters and the Deathstar? NOTHING, NOT A DAMNED THING WAS SAID ABOUT JAMMING THEIR SENSORS, they jammed their comms. You haven't proven jack shit.

Sure I did. I provided proof that Wars has a practical attitude towards sensor equipment,

Exclaiming something over and over again is not proof

and then I showed that out of the four sensors on standard kit X-Wing (based on starwars.com

Hmmm...four sensors huh...I thought you said they just used cameras, or have you backed off that argument because it is Bullshit. And NONE of that denoted anything about the fighter's sensors being "short range only".

, I know it is not canon but that is what I am working for until you have a better idea),

The burden of proof is on you, you make the claim they are "Short Ranged Only" so back it up.

two are probably optical in nature, one is probably EM spectrum, and the last one is undefined so we leave it undefined.

So 3 guesses and a I don't know from you, yeah that is pretty damned definitive that they are 'short range sensors only'. Oh wait, that doesn't prove a damned thing except YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT.

None of those are long ranged sensors conclusively.

None of them are short ranged only conculsively either.

Two of those are short range sensors

Were these your guess sensors, or is the I don't know sensor on this? This is what you said.

Primary
1. Fabritech ANs-5d "lock track" full-spectrum transceiver
2. Melihat "Multi-imager" dedicated energy receptor
3. Tana Ire electrophoto receptor
4. Fabritech k-blakan mini sensor
5. Bertriak "Screamer" active jammer

Alternate
6. Phased Tachyon Detection Array model #PA-9r
7. Short range Primary Threat Analysis Grid model #PG-7u

ONLY 1 of these says ANYTHING about "short range" and that is the Threat Anaylsis Grid, and that makes sense for it to be short ranged.

EM sensor may be long or short range but we leave it undefined. Therefore, there is no proof of long-ranged sensors.

Whoah jackass, you made the claim that the craft has no long range sensor, prove it or step off. You even admit that you can't be sure of the EM sensor, but hell, you know damned well that you don't have a fricken clue about the range of ANY of these sensors.

Human error is not a factor in normal situations where computer phaser lock isn't disabled. How hard is that to understand? How can Tuvok lock on phaser on a target with one button, and then fire with pressing another button if human error was the problem? What, depends on how hard he presses the button? Please.

We aren't talking about Tuvok, we are talking about Chekov, who did fire the phasors prematurely. His finger was too close to the button, he flinched, he fucked up, HE MADE AN ERROR.

[The Silence and I]

(soo many posts... can't, read, all)

I do not know what has been conceeded or not at this point, but I wanted to share a few little thoughts about X-Wings and combat range and accelerations.

Off hand I do not know the ICS acceleration for X-Wing type ships, but IIRC it is ~1700 G's on the main site here. Now to my thoughts:

If someone were to come to me and say: A Galaxy class starship cannot be expected to hit a 12.5 meter long fighter maneuvering randomly with X thousand G's behind it, I would readily agree. A one second engine burst at 1,700 G's (for sake of argument) will displace the X-Wing (from rest) by 8.3 km. At a combat range of 200,000 km this essentially means the X-Wing has enough acceleration to avoid a well aimed shot by a light speed weapon--to say nothing for the sub-cee protagating phaser.

If someone were come to me and say: An X-Wing can use this maneuverability to avoid a Galaxy class ship's return fire while hitting the larger ship with its own weapons until the battle is won, I would readily disagree. At a range of 200,000 km the larger Galaxy class ship will be a vanishingly small point on a field of stars. While visual targetting by the pilot will be impossible at that kind of range, I expect an X-Wing's computer can adjust the weapon's firing angle accurately enough to hit the distant Galaxy. But here is my point: If our fighter pilot decides to push the pedal to the metal so as to avoid return fire he will find he himself is unable to fire. His target must stay within a certain angle of his center line else his guns cannot track and fire off axis; at full burn he will race off to left or right field if he so much as twitches the control stick.
Stated concisely: To hit the Galaxy with nearly fixed forward axis weapons while burning full accel our pilot must approach either directly or with a shallow angle. In both cases the lateral acceleration from the Galaxy's POV is orders of magnitude lower--enough so to enter the realm of possible return fire.
To complicate things further: The lesser the starting range the shallower the angle required for any given time the target is within the cone of fire.

If this someone were to come back and say: Silence, you do know the X-Wing doesn't have to use full acceleration during the battle right? You do know that a fraction of that total will still be enough to avoid return fire right? I would reply with: Yes I do know this, the above was a thought exercise to show our pilot cannot at once claim full use of maneuverability and weapons at range. There is a happy grey area which I might attempt to approximate later.

Just wanted to mention this, it was brought up that the fighters could at once use uber acceleration and weapons and this is actually not likely to be realistic.


As an aside, what is the ICS starfighter acceleration? I searched the archive a bit but didn't find anything. There is evidence a Galaxy can achieve between 6 and 7th order acceleration in m/s^2, how does that compare?

[brianeyci]

Synder, SirNitram, I realized how silly I was to use a non-canonical source and try to prove my point. I concede all points about sensors being "short-ranged" or "long-ranged" based on that source. However, my hypothesis that Wars only mounts whatever sensors is necessary holds -- and plus, we've only seen short range combat and haven't seen long range X-Wing combat on the order of hundreds of thousands of kilometers which is assumed that the X-Wing can do. So there is evidence of short-ranged combat sensors, but not long-ranged combat sensors, long ranged being hundreds of thousands of kilometers.

Not only does this not say beans abour Warp strafing but I fail to see what this has to do with their accuracy.

See Silence and I's point about being able to hit your target while moving this fast. This is what I have been trying to ask you, whether there is any evidence an X-Wing can hit its target while moving at that speed. I found numbers for accuracy over thousand kilometer range based on "The Wounded" incident and Alyeska's 3 meter squared fifty meter distance 100% accuracy blown up to a 14 meter squared long area and no ECM environment. How come there's no numbers that exist for an X-Wing firing on a target thousands of kilometers away? That's all I want.

Sorry if I'm being dense but what? They have X-Wings. Therefore they have hyperdrive and KT scale weapons/shields. I honestly have no clue what you're talking about.

You didn't read my post did you. The whole point of posting that part of dialogue was to show that Trek has the equivalent of Wars jamming that makes ships go really show. Worf used his "inverted graviton" or whatever technobabble from one bird of prey to disable the warp of over ten Jem'Hadar ships. In large fleet engagements, this means no warp strafing if there's dedicated ships doing this, even reduced impulse speed since you have to form a warp field effect to go to impulse I believe. Now unless you have evidence otherwise, X-Wings don't have warp cores and thus cannot employ this tactic to slow down Federation fleets.

You ARE aware that you're using a thread that implies impulse is FTL, right?

Fine I fucked that up, impulse speed. So Wars doesn't have the "inverted graviton" technobabble, so Trek can move at these kind of speeds. Just like your wanked X-Wing speed, since you say Trek doesn't have the jamming to do this. See? Not maneuverability, just movement at these speeds and the movement will be highly predictable, but if you are going to claim thousands of g's since lack of Wars jamming equipment, I can claim these tens of thousands of g's based on lack of Trek "inverted graviton" if the X-Wings work alone and use their hyperspace advantage.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Okay, watched the episode. So how does the Maurader stack up? Not very well at all I admit. This episode, although they mention they improve the targeting scanners and are able to hit the Maurader, we don't see the kind of maneuverability like when we first saw the Maurader.

Range
Extremely short ranged, under one kilometer.

Speed
Perhaps several hundred meters per second.

Maneuverability
At least good enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes, and fractional c phaser shots.

Size
Very large, from eyeballing it maybe a quarter of a nacelle at least, 20 meters.

Predictable course
Highly predictable, as the Maurader doesn't move as unpredictably in this episode as the first one. This can be attributed a little to the Aenar pilot who is fatigued and controlling two ships at once -- predictability after all is more about the pilot/piloting computer (in this case the telepathic link).

Active jamming
None was mentioned. However Trip and Tucker couldn't get themselves beamed out, but this may be a side-effect of a thick hull since we never hear of any EM interference for example.

Active stealth
The holographic system, which is useless once disabled.

Passive stealth
None mentioned, although I suppose the thick hull stopping transporter sensors may affect targeting sensors as well.

Cloak
Romulans haven't invented it yet.

So in the end, we get a fairly predictable target that should be easy for any 23rd Century phasers to hit, given that Peregrines are less predictable than this incarnation of Maurader. They had been using an Aenar who hadn't been fatigued and had brain damage which probably accounts for why the Maurader had such a predictable course this episode but last episode was flying circles around NX-01. However the Romulans are not stupid -- it is not necessary to have telepresence if you have a manned ship that moves like the Maurader. Reed and Tucker were on the Maurader and didn't get squished. So the Maurader hypothesis, that the Romulan-Earth war sees the Romulans mass deploy such vehicles and get their asses handed and start developing larger ship hulls culminating in Warbird, is still good.

None of which proves conclusively that phasers can hit an X-Wing sized target which maneuvers like this. However the Maurader hypothesis does destroy the myth that SF hasn't seen maneuverable strike craft before, and answers a lot of Trek questions like why the Romulans switched to Warbirds with no smaller ship support until Nemesis. I am sticking by the 60 meters for hitting a X-Wing from the side figure though, because that figure is based off Alyeska's 3 meter squared 50 meter distant 100% accuracy figure.

Brian

[Batman]

And why pray tell should the X-Wing close to 60 metres when it is easily possible to hit a Trek capship from 100s of kiilometres using optical targeting?

[Darth Fanboy]

And why pray tell should the X-Wing close to 60 metres when it is easily possible to hit a Trek capship from 100s of kiilometres using optical targeting?

[sarcasm]Batman, it isn't in the X-Wings character to attack from that far away. Remember X-Wing pilots only do Trench Runs.[/sarcasm]

[Steven Snyder]

And why pray tell should the X-Wing close to 60 metres when it is easily possible to hit a Trek capship from 100s of kiilometres using optical targeting?

Because otherwise Brian wouldn't have a case.

[Striderteen]

None of which proves conclusively that phasers can hit an X-Wing sized target which maneuvers like this.

An X-Wing is not only smaller but faster *and* more maneuverable.

[seanrobertson]

Brian, three nitpicks:

You are wrong. The Angel One episode shows that the Klingon D-7's had to stay out of range of the colony's defenses, or perhaps the colony didn't have any.... 48 minutes to fire at 7 D-7's means they're shredded. So the D-7's had to be bombarding the colony from a long distance with torpedoes.

Nitpick the first, divided to A and B

N1A:
Minor a point as it is, I've seen this come up from time to time and wanted to address it. We're never told that Romulans were using D7s in "Angel One":

Insurance. Romulan battlecruisers
have been detected near one of
our border posts. They've
requested assistance as soon as
we are available.

Point of fact, the D'Deridex-class Warbird has also been called a "battlecruiser" ("Contagion").

But FWIW, I assumed BC=D7 when I first saw the episode, too (Unrelated note: I always wanted to see a heavily updated, "Romulanized" D7, circa perhaps the 2320s.)

N1B:
I also don't understand why you're suggesting that the Romulans had to attack the border outpost from range (or that the outpost had no "defenses"). That is based on the assumption that this...

To be precise, Commander, you
ordered me to reach the Neutral
Zone "before it is too late."
I have computed the length of time
the border outpost and USS Berlin
can safely withstand a Romulan
attack... deducted our time to
destination at maximum warp speed.
That leaves Doctor Crusher with
forty-eight more minutes to
complete her research and develop
an innoculant to the virus.

...means the outpost and Berlin would last ~48 minutes in a firefight.

However, that cannot be the case for several reasons. Most importantly, at the time Data said the above, Romulan cruisers were not attacking the outpost. Further, we have no clear indication of the Romulans' location relative to the outpost--just that the former were within the latter's "sensor range."

But enough about that. Moving on to N2:

Maneuverability
At least good enough to dodge 600 m/s torpedoes, and fractional c phaser shots.

I can't speak to "Aenar," but I wouldn't assume photorps or "photonic torpedoes" have a fixed "speed." Torpedoes sometimes accelerate at near 600 m/s; at other times, they're much slower or even appreciably faster (yes, in sublight starship combat).

And finally, N3:

Cloak
Romulans haven't invented it yet.

I'm afraid they did have cloaking devices by 2152 ("Minefield"):


However, this fact is difficult, perhaps impossible to reconcile with events depicted 100 years later in "Balance of Terror" (specifically, that Spock seemed surprised by the Romulan ship's "practical invisibility field").

But that's a whole other ball of wax

[brianeyci]

Minor a point as it is, I've seen this come up from time to time and wanted to address it. We're never told that Romulans were using D7s in "Angel One":

We know of Warbird, and we know of D7. They reveal Warbird much later, and Picard would not have been surprised to see the Warbird in later episodes if he encounters it in this episode.

However, that cannot be the case for several reasons. Most importantly, at the time Data said the above, Romulan cruisers were not attacking the outpost. Further, we have no clear indication of the Romulans' location relative to the outpost--just that the former were within the latter's "sensor range."

Data does not explicitly say that the outpost is not under attack, you are correct. But, Data says he has calculated the time the outpost can safely "withstand" a Romulan attack. For your intepretation to work, Data would have to know exactly when the Romulans planned to attack. For example, Data knows the Romulans would attack in 40 minutes. Then Data knows the outpost can survive for eight minutes. But Data does not know when the Romulans will attack. Therefore the only way Data can come up with a 48 minute figure is if the outpost is already under attack, even though Data does not explicitly say so. This assumes the Battlecruisers are in weapons range.

Now if the Battlecruisers were not in weapons range, the only possible other intepretation is that Data knows the warp speed of the Battlecruisers, knows that they will arrive at a certain time, and knows the shield strength of the outpost. Its not really an extra variable, since the speed of a D7 should be common knowledge, but if Data was really calculating the time it would take for the Battlecruisers to reach the colony and the time it would take for the colony's shields to be destroyed, more likely than not Data would have been verbose, for example "The Romulan Battlecruisers will reach the outpost in 40 minutes, and will be able to withstand their attack for eight minutes" rather than "withstand their attack for 48 minutes".

In other words, if you say something can "withstand an attack for 48 more minutes" its implicit that the attack is already underway. I don't know how else you can interpret it.

We know that photorps can fire from hundreds of thousands of kilometers distant, and thus the D7's lasting 48 minutes by virtue of them pounding on the colony's shields and staying out of range of their weapons is not inconsistent with the D7's endurance.

I can't speak to "Aenar," but I wouldn't assume photorps or "photonic torpedoes" have a fixed "speed." Torpedoes sometimes accelerate at near 600 m/s; at other times, they're much slower or even appreciably faster (yes, in sublight starship combat).

Yes very good, but in the thread I read Brandon Bray calculates 600 m/s to be a lower limit for photon torpedo speed actually.

I'm afraid they did have cloaking devices by 2152 ("Minefield"):

You can't hotlink the image, use your university account or maybe photobucket everybody seems to use =D.

And the Maurader didn't have cloak, or didn't appear to, so we can't assume it did.

Brian

[brianeyci]

Because otherwise Brian wouldn't have a case.

Let me put this another way. If TNG "The Wounded" didn't exist, and I claimed phasers could shoot hundreds of thousands of kilometers because of "physics" that an energy weapon should be able to shoot infinite range (Batman claimed this), and that because Ent-D has sensors that detect things light years away and therefore it can fire light years away...

... you would be all over me calling me troll, idiot, and showing me screenshots of point-blank range Trek fighting.

Now, I'm just asking for anything, any example, of X-Wings fighting at thousands of kilometers distant. Anything. Any example. I will be happy to concede the point if this exists.

Brian

[The Silence and I]

And why pray tell should the X-Wing close to 60 metres when it is easily possible to hit a Trek capship from 100s of kiilometres using optical targeting?

No good reason to close to that distance, assuming ECM is ignored by both sides.

But if an X-Wing fires from 100s of Km distant it will be opening itself to counter attack. They have mostly fixed weapons in the forward arc--to hit the distant Federation ship the pilot MUST be pointing his nose at that ship within a few degrees of play room. At low relative velocity he can point his nose as far away as his weapons can handle and have time to fire several shots, but return fire now has both time and a predicable target=bad.
At higher relative velocity he needs to point his nose more directly on target to have the same firing window, which means lateral velocity and any acceleration relative to the Federation ship will be very much lower than whatever the fighter is actually pulling. Again, this=bad.

Basically, in order to fire on the Federation ship at long range the X-Wing needs to expose itself to return fire. At close range the pilot has far more options and can effectively maneuver and shoot more, but his relative velocity will be capped by the pilot's reflexes.

Honestly, fighters are better off fighting very near capital ships IMHO. At close range you lose the speed but you can do something very important: deny the Federation ship the time to obtain phaser lock, simply by flying circles around it. At long range you can deny phaser lock by using huge velocity and acceleration, but you cannot fire unless you give up that advantage. Close and dirty is the best of both worlds I think. Less speed, more firing oportunities, and changing angles of attack more quickly=less effective return fire. (the only problem is approaching the Fed ship without being shot to hell and back)

Make sense?

[The Silence and I]

Because otherwise Brian wouldn't have a case.

Let me put this another way. If TNG "The Wounded" didn't exist, and I claimed phasers could shoot hundreds of thousands of kilometers because of "physics" that an energy weapon should be able to shoot infinite range (Batman claimed this), and that because Ent-D has sensors that detect things light years away and therefore it can fire light years away...

... you would be all over me calling me troll, idiot, and showing me screenshots of point-blank range Trek fighting.

Now, I'm just asking for anything, any example, of X-Wings fighting at thousands of kilometers distant. Anything. Any example. I will be happy to concede the point if this exists.

Brian

As I recall, the X-Wing targetting scanner seen during the trench run, if assumed to be measuring meters, which makes the most sense, had enough placeholders to measure out to ~1000 km. I am sure I will be corrected if I have the details wrong, but I think it was ~1000 km, it can be found somewhere on Dr. Saxton's site.
No way for telling if this applies to the X-Wing's complete weapons sytem or just torpedoes, but there you go.

[brianeyci]

As I recall, the X-Wing targetting scanner seen during the trench run, if assumed to be measuring meters, which makes the most sense, had enough placeholders to measure out to ~1000 km. I am sure I will be corrected if I have the details wrong, but I think it was ~1000 km, it can be found somewhere on Dr. Saxton's site.
No way for telling if this applies to the X-Wing's complete weapons sytem or just torpedoes, but there you go.

Op states the Klingons do not have torpedoes.

And, taking the one-light second figure of maximum range from "The Wounded", and taking one kilometer as the effectiveness of ECM (based on the usual range of combat in fleet engagements), we get 300k km over 1 km. Now take a variable, x equals effectiveness of phasers against X-Wing sized targets without ECM around, and take .06 as the 60 meter range for X-Wing sized targets based on the 3 meter squared 50 meter distant perfect accuracy. So that's 3.0e5/1 = x/6.0e-2 and we get 1.8e4 km or 18000 km range 100% accuracy X-Wing side profile in a non-ECM environment.

This is based on Batman's assertion that "Trek ECM cannot effect Wars and Wars ECM cannot effect Trek." I know this to be false, because DW himself proposes using heavy jamming against Federation forces in his sensor page on the main site. But, because I cannot meet the burden of proof and didn't want to make the mistake of appealing to authority fallacy like I did before with the "90%" figure, I ask for assistance now in disproving the "ECM is unique" statement.

Brian

[Batman]

Because otherwise Brian wouldn't have a case.

Let me put this another way. If TNG "The Wounded" didn't exist, and I claimed phasers could shoot hundreds of thousands of kilometers because of "physics" that an energy weapon should be able to shoot infinite range (Batman claimed this), and that because Ent-D has sensors that detect things light years away and therefore it can fire light years away...
... you would be all over me calling me troll, idiot, and showing me screenshots of point-blank range Trek fighting.

That's right, because you have no evidence of them being able to target that far out. They should easily be able to hit large,stationary targets at those ranges. All an X-Wing needs to hit the lumbering Fed ships outside effective phaser range is a fucking telescope.

Now, I'm just asking for anything, any example, of X-Wings fighting at thousands of kilometers distant. Anything. Any example. I will be happy to concede the point if this exists.

Who claims thousands of kilometres? Dozens of kilometres is easily enough for the Feds not to be able to accurately shoot back.

[Batman]

As I recall, the X-Wing targetting scanner seen during the trench run, if assumed to be measuring meters, which makes the most sense, had enough placeholders to measure out to ~1000 km. I am sure I will be corrected if I have the details wrong, but I think it was ~1000 km, it can be found somewhere on Dr. Saxton's site.
No way for telling if this applies to the X-Wing's complete weapons sytem or just torpedoes, but there you go.

Op states the Klingons do not have torpedoes.

Which has what exactly to ddo with their targeting systems?

And, taking the one-light second figure of maximum range from "The Wounded", and taking one kilometer as the effectiveness of ECM (based on the usual range of combat in fleet engagements), we get 300k km over 1 km. Now take a variable, x equals effectiveness of phasers against X-Wing sized targets without ECM around, and take .06 as the 60 meter range for X-Wing sized targets based on the 3 meter squared 50 meter distant perfect accuracy. So that's 3.0e5/1 = x/6.0e-2 and we get 1.8e4 km or 18000 km range 100% accuracy X-Wing side profile in a non-ECM environment.

What are you blabbering about? You have 100 percent accuracy at 60 metres as the X-Wing clearly has ECM. Not that targeting percentages against lumbering Fed ships are relevant to far more maneuverable and fater targets.

This is based on Batman's assertion that "Trek ECM cannot effect Wars and Wars ECM cannot effect Trek."

Which I never said. I said Trek ECM would be ineffective against Wars sensors, thanks to their 25000 year tech advantage.

I know this to be false, because DW himself proposes using heavy jamming against Federation forces in his sensor page on the main site.

IOW, Wars jamming Trek. Which I never contested. Does it say anything about Trek jamming Wars? No? Then I'm afraid you're SOL. Especially as we NEVER see visual jamming on Trek, and since X-Wing targeting sensors appear to be optical...

But, because I cannot meet the burden of proof and didn't want to make the mistake of appealing to authority fallacy like I did before with the "90%" figure, I ask for assistance now in disproving the "ECM is unique" statement.

Err-what?

[Batman]

And why pray tell should the X-Wing close to 60 metres when it is easily possible to hit a Trek capship from 100s of kiilometres using optical targeting?

No good reason to close to that distance, assuming ECM is ignored by both sides.
But if an X-Wing fires from 100s of Km distant it will be opening itself to counter attack.

For a second or two. In this case, from an opponent that hasn't got a snowball's chance in hell of actually hitting it at that range.

They have mostly fixed weapons in the forward arc--to hit the distant Federation ship the pilot MUST be pointing his nose at that ship within a few degrees of play room.[Agreed[/i].What he does not need to do is actually fly in that direction as X-Wings have been shown to rotate around their z-axis without changing direction.

At low relative velocity he can point his nose as far away as his weapons can handle and have time to fire several shots, but return fire now has both time and a predicable target=bad.

'Several' being 5 that's one quarter of a second. Not all that much time.

At higher relative velocity he needs to point his nose more directly on target to have the same firing window, which means lateral velocity and any acceleration relative to the Federation ship will be very much lower than whatever the fighter is actually pulling. Again, this=bad.

Also wrong thanks to the X-Wings ability to spin whitout changing direction.
Also, for a second or two. At a range where the Fed's can't possibly hit it.

Basically, in order to fire on the Federation ship at long range the X-Wing needs to expose itself to return fire.

Which has not a chance in hell of hitting it.

At close range the pilot has far more options and can effectively maneuver and shoot more,

Err-how is that exactly?

but his relative velocity will be capped by the pilot's reflexes.

So let the R2 fly the fighter

Honestly, fighters are better off fighting very near capital ships IMHO.

I still fail to see why.

At close range you lose the speed but you can do something very important: deny the Federation ship the time to obtain phaser lock, simply by flying circles around it.

The X-Wing can do that at range, too. Given that the window for the Feds to shoot back is a second or two either way, I fail to see why this is a problem.

At long range you can deny phaser lock by using huge velocity and acceleration, but you cannot fire unless you give up that advantage.

Wrong.

Close and dirty is the best of both worlds I think. Less speed, more firing oportunities, and changing angles of attack more quickly=less effective return fire. (the only problem is approaching the Fed ship without being shot to hell and back)

Make use of your insane accelleration advantage.

Make sense?

I'm afraid not.