Upper limit photon torpedoes...

[Ted C]

If phasers transform a target into invisible neutrinos, would this not apply to the mass effect upon a planetary surface as seen in DITC scene? Perhaps they did destroy 30% of the planet's crust, if we are to accept that the crust was also transformed into neutrinos(hence lack of enormous heat radiation and visible light). One would wonder why torpedoes were fired, but perhaps they can do the same thing if appropiately modified.

That one won't fly very far, Rob. Even if phaser fire caused 30% of the planet's crust turn into neutrinos and scatter invisibly from the seen, the red hot magma underneath the crust would still be glaringly visible.

[Typhonis 1]

This is interesting in that if the OTHER TNG eppisodes are to be believed then the Ent D cant even take a proximity hit from a 64 mt torpedo much less a direct one to the shields

[Robert Walper]

If phasers transform a target into invisible neutrinos, would this not apply to the mass effect upon a planetary surface as seen in DITC scene? Perhaps they did destroy 30% of the planet's crust, if we are to accept that the crust was also transformed into neutrinos(hence lack of enormous heat radiation and visible light). One would wonder why torpedoes were fired, but perhaps they can do the same thing if appropiately modified.

That one won't fly very far, Rob. Even if phaser fire caused 30% of the planet's crust turn into neutrinos and scatter invisibly from the seen, the red hot magma underneath the crust would still be glaringly visible.

Hmmm...that cetainly makes sense. I withdraw that line of speculation. A very difficult scene to judge, IMO, if one isn't willing to immediately called Trek personel idiots.

[Ted C]

Hmmm...that cetainly makes sense. I withdraw that line of speculation. A very difficult scene to judge, IMO, if one isn't willing to immediately called Trek personel idiots.

Thanks for not mentioning my lousy grammar in the last post.

As to the competence of Trek personnel, sometimes I have to wonder, and you know I don't like to arbitrarily assume they're morons. Might I suggest that the characters aren't stupid, but that the Starfleet training program has a disturbingly bad design. Remember that at the academy, Wesley, who was on an advanced engineering track, spent a lot of class time studying Latin, Shakespeare, and creative writing. With such a poor sense of priorities, who knows how little they might actually learn in the technical classes. After all, their instructors presumably had the same flawed curriculum.

I think you could argue that many Starfleet personnel actually have a fairly poor understanding of science; they rely heavily upon computers for scientific analysis and prediction. Given the garbage-in-garbage-out principle, a poorly description of the problem will produce a poor computer prediction of results.

Of course, to explain TDiC, you would have to assume similar training problems on the part of the Romulans and Cardassians.

[Robert Walper]

Hmmm...that cetainly makes sense. I withdraw that line of speculation. A very difficult scene to judge, IMO, if one isn't willing to immediately called Trek personel idiots.

Thanks for not mentioning my lousy grammar in the last post.

I didn't even notice it until you mentioned it. I merely read the sentence as you meant to write it...I seem to have the habit of sometimes filling in errors by reading the word as it should rather then how it actually is, and not even noticing it.

Besides, such a nitpick would seem quite rude since I freely admit I make plenty myself. Though, some others aren't so forgiving...

As to the competence of Trek personnel, sometimes I have to wonder, and you know I don't like to arbitrarily assume they're morons.

Agreed. I'm not above assuming errors of part of characters, but when characters repeatedly put forth dialogue that indicates a certain capability of theirs(for instance heavy planetary bombardment), I feel such capabilities cannot be dismissed and should be considered. One of the reasons I started the thread in the first place is to try to account for typically low yields, but potential for extremely high yields when certain factors are considered(ie: preperation beforehand, torpedo yield adjustment speed, etc, etc).

My perspective is that the Federation's starships may be very much like military units today. For instance, a tank typically has very low firepower in comparison to nuclear warheads. Even in large scale wars where many tanks are brought into a fray(like Desert Storm), nuclear deployment would seem quite unlikely(and counterproductive given vulnerability to their own firepower). However, this doesn't mean a tank could not fire a nuclear tipped projectile at a target if the situation called for it and any such tank had prepared for such an offensive previously.

Might I suggest that the characters aren't stupid, but that the Starfleet training program has a disturbingly bad design. Remember that at the academy, Wesley, who was on an advanced engineering track, spent a lot of class time studying Latin, Shakespeare, and creative writing.

Agreed. I think such indications support the generally accepted view that the Federation is quite passive in their defensive and offensive measures(only recently stepping up their military might apparently). This would add credibiliy to the theory that Federation ships are not typically going out with the highest yield weapon their ships are capable of deploying(nor can they suddenly "create" one on demand, even if the torpedo casing can accomodate such yields). This doesn't mean they cannot deploy such high yields weaponry if given sufficent reason and preperation time. One example being the preperation for the Borg...suddenly the Enterprise is vulnerable to proximity blasts of it's own weapons, despite apparently being able to survive multiple direct hits by similar weaponry in previous incidents(but against enemies of equal power, therefore such firepower is not required).

With such a poor sense of priorities, who knows how little they might actually learn in the technical classes. After all, their instructors presumably had the same flawed curriculum.

Agreed.

I think you could argue that many Starfleet personnel actually have a fairly poor understanding of science; they rely heavily upon computers for scientific analysis and prediction. Given the garbage-in-garbage-out principle, a poorly description of the problem will produce a poor computer prediction of results.

Of course, to explain TDiC, you would have to assume similar training problems on the part of the Romulans and Cardassians.

True, though it certainly isn't in the realm of improbility considering how similar many of the races in Trek are.

[Ted C]

Agreed. I think such indications support the generally accepted view that the Federation is quite passive in their defensive and offensive measures(only recently stepping up their military might apparently). This would add credibiliy to the theory that Federation ships are not typically going out with the highest yield weapon their ships are capable of deploying(nor can they suddenly "create" one on demand, even if the torpedo casing can accomodate such yields). This doesn't mean they cannot deploy such high yields weaponry if given sufficent reason and preperation time. One example being the preperation for the Borg...suddenly the Enterprise is vulnerable to proximity blasts of it's own weapons, despite apparently being able to survive multiple direct hits by similar weaponry in previous incidents(but against enemies of equal power, therefore such firepower is not required).

The problem, here, is that you're going to have to look at the incidents more closely. In "The Nth Degree", the Enterprise was sent to repair a malfunctioning subspace telescope. They had no reason to suspect that they would encounter a sophisticated alien probe that could ignore the "hottest" phaser shot the could produce, so they would have no reason to carry an exceptionally powerful torpedo. Similarly, in "Q Who", they had no reason to expect Q to catapult their ship into the Delta Quadrant, where it would encounter a Borg cube, so they would have no reason to keep extraordinarily powerful torpedoes on hand.

Nonetheless, in both of these incidents, the crew were reluctant to employ photon torpedoes because of the risk of collateral damage to their own ship. It would seem that a typical photon torpedo, even at low yield, can be a significant threat to their own ship if used at short range.

This means that photon torpedoes have a minimum yield which is sufficient to threaten even a shielded starship (since I don't recall anything being wrong with their shields in "The Nth Degree"). Of course, the threat there was a full spread of max-yield torpedoes at short range, and the conditions were slightly different in "Q Who" (shields being already heavily depleted, if nothing else).

Still, there is nothing to indicate that a starship has to visit a starbase or otherwise go to extreme measures to achieve a "planetary bombardment" torpedo.

[Ted C]

My perspective is that the Federation's starships may be very much like military units today. For instance, a tank typically has very low firepower in comparison to nuclear warheads. Even in large scale wars where many tanks are brought into a fray(like Desert Storm), nuclear deployment would seem quite unlikely(and counterproductive given vulnerability to their own firepower). However, this doesn't mean a tank could not fire a nuclear tipped projectile at a target if the situation called for it and any such tank had prepared for such an offensive previously.

The situation is different, however, with a modern warship. Most of the Tomahawk missiles on an American Aegis Cruiser carry conventional explosive warheads, but any of them could deliver an 200 KT nuclear warhead instead. At any time, the captain of the ship could order the use of nuclear weapons, with nothing but the trust of his crew standing in the way. I don't see why Starfleet captains would have less authority, since they are often expected to handle delicate political negotiations on behalf of the Federation (due to the time delays involved in subspace communication).

Consequently, Picard ought to have access to the most powerful warhead a photon torpedo can carry, assuming he can justify its use to his crew.

[Robert Walper]

The problem, here, is that you're going to have to look at the incidents more closely. In "The Nth Degree", the Enterprise was sent to repair a malfunctioning subspace telescope. They had no reason to suspect that they would encounter a sophisticated alien probe that could ignore the "hottest" phaser shot the could produce, so they would have no reason to carry an exceptionally powerful torpedo.

Granted. However, I wasn't attempting to imply Federation shielding must be much higher as well, only their maximum yield torpedoes which require some serious preperation time. Their typcial higher yield torpedoes would still harm their starship as stated above when preperation wasn't evident, but the really big suckers they can potentially have would utterly obliterate them unless sufficent distance is achieved between themselves and their target.

Similarly, in "Q Who", they had no reason to expect Q to catapult their ship into the Delta Quadrant, where it would encounter a Borg cube, so they would have no reason to keep extraordinarily powerful torpedoes on hand.

True enough. However, the Enterprise's inability to effectively survive proximity blasts from typically higher yield weaponry doesn't mean they cannot deploy much higher yields if given sufficent time. This merely contributes the reasons why such yields are not typically used, even in large scale battles. They'd kill their enemy and themselves.

Evidently, if it were to be accepted that Federation ships could theoritally deploy warheads as I've described in this post, I'd conclude they would have to place large distances between themselves and the targets absorbing such firepower, and such targets would have to be easy to hit, like a planetary surface.

Nonetheless, in both of these incidents, the crew were reluctant to employ photon torpedoes because of the risk of collateral damage to their own ship.

Then it would seem logical they'd be even more reluctant to deploy even higher yields, especially if combat is expected at close range. We are dealing with a civilization that passed up what they believed was an effective way to obliterate the Borg("I, Hugh").

It would seem that a typical photon torpedo, even at low yield, can be a significant threat to their own ship if used at short range.

I don't dispute this evidence. I merely dismiss it as proof against much higher yields being theoritically possible. I simply am trying to use the 200 isoton figure to suggest a possible highest yield a torpedo can have. For instance, torpedoes seem to have the capability to affect stars. This alone indicates to me they can do some impressive work.

This means that photon torpedoes have a minimum yield which is sufficient to threaten even a shielded starship (since I don't recall anything being wrong with their shields in "The Nth Degree").

With this in mind, mega torpedoes wouldn't be needed to face conventional enemies whom are similarily vulnerable.

Of course, the threat there was a full spread of max-yield torpedoes at short range, and the conditions were slightly different in "Q Who" (shields being already heavily depleted, if nothing else).

Good point.

Still, there is nothing to indicate that a starship has to visit a starbase or otherwise go to extreme measures to achieve a "planetary bombardment" torpedo.

As you yourselve stated, even kiloton yield torpedoes, with the Enterprise's payload, would pretty much devestate a civilization significantly.

When I used the 200isoton figure given in Voyager, I assumed this is the highest yield a Federatino torpedo can generate(and given their technology capabilities, I assume much bigger than anything we've got). This does not mean Voyager has the resources to increase a torpedo yield to this degree, merely the torpedo's capacity itself is sufficent deploy such a yield. After all, Harry Kim's comment about the 83isoton(out of 200 max) torpedo in "Omega" suggests even this yield is extremely high compared to their typical torpedoes. His comment, while not interpreted literately, suggests to me further evidence starships don't slug at eachother with the biggest weapons they have, only what is necessary to disable and/or destroy the enemy. Exactly like how modern tanks will slug it out with conventional shells rather then nuclear tipped ones(which from all accounts is possible).

[Ted C]

The problem, here, is that you're going to have to look at the incidents more closely. In "The Nth Degree", the Enterprise was sent to repair a malfunctioning subspace telescope. They had no reason to suspect that they would encounter a sophisticated alien probe that could ignore the "hottest" phaser shot the could produce, so they would have no reason to carry an exceptionally powerful torpedo.

Granted. However, I wasn't attempting to imply Federation shielding must be much higher as well, only their maximum yield torpedoes which require some serious preperation time. Their typcial higher yield torpedoes would still harm their starship as stated above when preperation wasn't evident, but the really big suckers they can potentially have would utterly obliterate them unless sufficent distance is achieved between themselves and their target.

Similarly, in "Q Who", they had no reason to expect Q to catapult their ship into the Delta Quadrant, where it would encounter a Borg cube, so they would have no reason to keep extraordinarily powerful torpedoes on hand.

True enough. However, the Enterprise's inability to effectively survive proximity blasts from typically higher yield weaponry doesn't mean they cannot deploy much higher yields if given sufficent time. This merely contributes the reasons why such yields are not typically used, even in large scale battles. They'd kill their enemy and themselves.

Evidently, if it were to be accepted that Federation ships could theoritally deploy warheads as I've described in this post, I'd conclude they would have to place large distances between themselves and the targets absorbing such firepower, and such targets would have to be easy to hit, like a planetary surface.

Nonetheless, in both of these incidents, the crew were reluctant to employ photon torpedoes because of the risk of collateral damage to their own ship.

Then it would seem logical they'd be even more reluctant to deploy even higher yields, especially if combat is expected at close range. We are dealing with a civilization that passed up what they believed was an effective way to obliterate the Borg("I, Hugh").

It would seem that a typical photon torpedo, even at low yield, can be a significant threat to their own ship if used at short range.

I don't dispute this evidence. I merely dismiss it as proof against much higher yields being theoritically possible. I simply am trying to use the 200 isoton figure to suggest a possible highest yield a torpedo can have. For instance, torpedoes seem to have the capability to affect stars. This alone indicates to me they can do some impressive work.

This means that photon torpedoes have a minimum yield which is sufficient to threaten even a shielded starship (since I don't recall anything being wrong with their shields in "The Nth Degree").

With this in mind, mega torpedoes wouldn't be needed to face conventional enemies whom are similarily vulnerable.

Of course, the threat there was a full spread of max-yield torpedoes at short range, and the conditions were slightly different in "Q Who" (shields being already heavily depleted, if nothing else).

Good point.

Still, there is nothing to indicate that a starship has to visit a starbase or otherwise go to extreme measures to achieve a "planetary bombardment" torpedo.

As you yourselve stated, even kiloton yield torpedoes, with the Enterprise's payload, would pretty much devestate a civilization significantly.

When I used the 200isoton figure given in Voyager, I assumed this is the highest yield a Federatino torpedo can generate(and given their technology capabilities, I assume much bigger than anything we've got). This does not mean Voyager has the resources to increase a torpedo yield to this degree, merely the torpedo's capacity itself is sufficent deploy such a yield. After all, Harry Kim's comment about the 83isoton(out of 200 max) torpedo in "Omega" suggests even this yield is extremely high compared to their typical torpedoes. His comment, while not interpreted literately, suggests to me further evidence starships don't slug at eachother with the biggest weapons they have, only what is necessary to disable and/or destroy the enemy. Exactly like how modern tanks will slug it out with conventional shells rather then nuclear tipped ones(which from all accounts is possible).

[Ted C]

When I used the 200isoton figure given in Voyager, I assumed this is the highest yield a Federatino torpedo can generate(and given their technology capabilities, I assume much bigger than anything we've got). This does not mean Voyager has the resources to increase a torpedo yield to this degree, merely the torpedo's capacity itself is sufficent deploy such a yield.

Would there be any reason for 7of9 to even mention a 200-isoton yield if Voyager wasn't capable of producing that much energy with the 32 torpedoes on the ship at the time?

[Robert Walper]

When I used the 200isoton figure given in Voyager, I assumed this is the highest yield a Federatino torpedo can generate(and given their technology capabilities, I assume much bigger than anything we've got). This does not mean Voyager has the resources to increase a torpedo yield to this degree, merely the torpedo's capacity itself is sufficent deploy such a yield.

Would there be any reason for 7of9 to even mention a 200-isoton yield if Voyager wasn't capable of producing that much energy with the 32 torpedoes on the ship at the time?

I would theorize the Borg cube could easily provide enough material to max the yield of a Federation photon torpedo if Janeway insisted on using them(appanrelty she did). In the same sentence, she told them their best yield, possibly even with Borg resources on hand, wasn't good enough for their objectives.

From my perspective, Voyager could potentially deploy a 200isoton torpedo, but they'd need the time and resources to max the yield(hard to come by when they are all alone and limited in speed and resources access). After all, it was taking Voyager some time and resources for them just to make a 83 isoton torpedo(and it's firepower was considered very impressive a crewman).

[Ender]

The situation is different, however, with a modern warship. Most of the Tomahawk missiles on an American Aegis Cruiser carry conventional explosive warheads, but any of them could deliver an 200 KT nuclear warhead instead. At any time, the captain of the ship could order the use of nuclear weapons, with nothing but the trust of his crew standing in the way.

In 1991 Bush said to remove nuclear warheads from most of the ships, so that is no longer the case. I think only boomers carry warheads with them now, but I'm not certain.

[Robert Walper]

The situation is different, however, with a modern warship. Most of the Tomahawk missiles on an American Aegis Cruiser carry conventional explosive warheads, but any of them could deliver an 200 KT nuclear warhead instead. At any time, the captain of the ship could order the use of nuclear weapons, with nothing but the trust of his crew standing in the way.

However, those ships are under the leadership of a country I would not describe as passive like the Federation. This is the same country that used nuclear weapons upon Hiroshima and Nagasoki as a means to end an already ending war. The Federation doesn't portray any similar type of "iron fist" methods.

[Vympel]

However, those ships are under the leadership of a country I would not describe as passive like the Federation. This is the same country that used nuclear weapons upon Hiroshima and Nagasoki as a means to end an already ending war. The Federation doesn't portray any similar type of "iron fist" methods.

What's the point of this discussion? What you seem to be saying is that the Federation has uber high-yield photorps but doesn't use them and we've never seen them.

[Robert Walper]

What's the point of this discussion?

The point of any discussion on SD.net is to have a debate that is fun, but also, hopefully, results in enlightenment, sharing of ideas and even changes in views.

What you seem to be saying is that the Federation has uber high-yield photorps but doesn't use them and we've never seen them.

My original post is a theory on what "isoton" means, and in employing that theory I've also calculated a theoritical maximum torpedo yield. Such yields may have been used on stars to generate significant effects, etc, etc.

If you believe such a theory is utter rubbish and totally unworthy of consideration, then by all means don't participate. I won't attempt to force a theory of mine onto you. Maybe you're right, maybe I'm right.

[Vympel]

I wasn't talking about your original post- I was talking about the tangent upon which you've theorized about uber high-yield torpedoes without a shred of evidence that such things exist in the Federation arsenal, based on a piece of reasoning that posits that photon torpedoes are like sabot rounds but the Federation has WMD orders of magnitude more powerful- I reiterate- without a shred of evidence.

[Robert Walper]

I wasn't talking about your original post- I was talking about the tangent upon which you've theorized about uber high-yield torpedoes without a shred of evidence that such things exist in the Federation arsenal, based on a piece of reasoning that posits that photon torpedoes are like sabot rounds but the Federation has WMD orders of magnitude more powerful- I reiterate- without a shred of evidence.

If you read my first post, then I'm sure you read the part where I clearly stated that my theory is based upon a single statement, and that I myself approach it cautiously. So far, I haven't yet seen an arguement that solidily refutes the possibility the Federation could deploy such high yield weaponry.

[Vympel]

If you read my first post, then I'm sure you read the part where I clearly stated that my theory is based upon a single statement, and that I myself approach it cautiously. So far, I haven't yet seen an arguement that solidily refutes the possibility the Federation could deploy such high yield weaponry.

*sigh*

Do I really have to say it?

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove it, not on ME to disprove it. You are asserting the positive, not I- it's not my responsibility to disprove every flight of fancy with no evidence that someone decides to come up with.

[SPOOFE]

So far, I haven't yet seen an arguement that solidily refutes the possibility the Federation could deploy such high yield weaponry.

What about counter-theories that encompass a broader range of evidence than a single quote? The syntax of Seven's statement has her describing the power output of the TOTAL torpedo complement, not individual torpedoes.

[Robert Walper]

If you read my first post, then I'm sure you read the part where I clearly stated that my theory is based upon a single statement, and that I myself approach it cautiously. So far, I haven't yet seen an arguement that solidily refutes the possibility the Federation could deploy such high yield weaponry.

*sigh*

Do I really have to say it?

The burden of proof is on YOU to prove it, not on ME to disprove it. You are asserting the positive, not I- it's not my responsibility to disprove every flight of fancy with no evidence that someone decides to come up with.

Granted. It is my responsibility to prove such a concept. Therefore, until I do so, feel free to ignore my theory. I can think of no other way to answer you, other than my investigation into the theory is far from complete.

[Robert Walper]

So far, I haven't yet seen an arguement that solidily refutes the possibility the Federation could deploy such high yield weaponry.

What about counter-theories that encompass a broader range of evidence than a single quote? The syntax of Seven's statement has her describing the power output of the TOTAL torpedo complement, not individual torpedoes.

Since in Star Trek Voyager "Omega" the Voyager crew was setting a photon torpedo to 83 isotons, such a theory seems somewhat disproven.

[Vympel]

Granted. It is my responsibility to prove such a concept. Therefore, until I do so, feel free to ignore my theory. I can think of no other way to answer you, other than my investigation into the theory is far from complete.

Alright then.

[Howedar]

TDIC indicates impressive power, if not a high level of DET in the conventional sense. We don't actually know if those were photorps though, IIRC.

How so? The surface wasn't even lit up as brightly as a forest fire, and the thermal pulses from the fireballs didn't last long enough to be multi-megaton explosions, never mind multi-gigaton. The only thing the Trekkies can hang their hats on is the meaningless shockwaves, which are probably upper-atmospheric ionization or something similar.

No, it doesn't do anything near what a 64-megaton device would, but it does indicate higher yields than, say, ST5. Something had to be putting energy into the atmosphere (maybe via subspace )to make those shockwaves. It may not actually do anything, but its more than our examples of a few hundred pounds of TNT.

[Darth Wong]

No, it doesn't do anything near what a 64-megaton device would, but it does indicate higher yields than, say, ST5.

Agreed; ST5 is very, very low and one would expect that they'd exceeded that.

Something had to be putting energy into the atmosphere (maybe via subspace )to make those shockwaves. It may not actually do anything, but its more than our examples of a few hundred pounds of TNT.

As I said before, "Pegasus" pegs an upper limit around the megaton range, which would already exceed modern technology and which is handily above those estimates, and it's one of the most generous incidents (look at "Night Terrors"). Remember that a real-life 1 megaton nuke is roughly 1 ton, and photorps are only 250 kg.

[SPOOFE]

Since in Star Trek Voyager "Omega" the Voyager crew was setting a photon torpedo to 83 isotons, such a theory seems somewhat disproven.

Was that torpedo typical of weaponry in Star Trek? Harry was quite surprised at the yield of the weapon.