Yuuzhun Vong vs. Star Trek

[Imperial528]

Picard, I have a question about the asteroid impacting ISD's bridge scene. I don't have the time to dig up my DVD of the movie right now, but perhaps you can answer my question: You say that the ISD's bridge was completely destroyed, what of the asteroid?

[Imperial528]

Seeing as how the Endor shield could be opened in pieces, I wouldn't be surprised if the Coruscant shield could too. Although, the core has so much trafic, I wouldn't be surprised if Coruscant's shield was always down.

[Kythnos]

I already explained that. At absolute bent-backwards minimum, ST weapons are in kiloton-megaton range. Yet Breen attack on San Francisco caused only "light damage".

And what is the power of Breen weapons? (their primary or most seen weapon was the energy draining effect)
How does this prove a planetary shield and not just one that covers the city?

. "Year of Hell part 2" suggests that even relatively primitive civilizations have them.

And that means the Federation has them how?
I have not seen the episodes in quite some time but is this "primitive civilization" coming from one that can alter time with the flick of a switch? (to them the Federation would be primitive)
Again any shield that could block the "time wave" would spare part of the Civilization and there by prevent the weapon from altering the timeline the way it was intended. In simpler terms a Time-shield over a city and they would not get the change they wanted rendering the weapon even more impossible to control.

Then we have planetary shield in "Whom Gods Destroy".

(To start this is from the TOS, you can't always take everything you see as canon although this sadly applies to all ST series.)
Second like this has been said before there is no proof that the shield extends over the whole planet. It just has to cover enough of the surface to prevent a rapid rescue by any other means, like the shield over the Rura Penthe mines.

Also, watch episode "The Chase". Single BoP can completely eradicate life on entire planet via chain-reaction - if only single shot lands, you're dead.

Another One Shot weapon, even if you count it as canon, how long it is take to set up?
Why is it never used again? Does it only effect that world? Does take so long to trigger that it could only be used on a world with no one on it to shoot back?

I'm sorry, but simply wishing that Star Trek doesn't have planetary shields won't erase all evidence we have.

Where is the rest of your evidence?

[Stofsk]

Then we have planetary shield in "Whom Gods Destroy".

(To start this is from the TOS, you can't always take everything you see as canon although this sadly applies to all ST series.)

What are you saying here? It sounds like you're saying TOS shouldn't be cited as canon.

Second like this has been said before there is no proof that the shield extends over the whole planet. It just has to cover enough of the surface to prevent a rapid rescue by any other means, like the shield over the Rura Penthe mines.

False. It was explicitly mentioned in the episode to cover the entire planet. I pointed this out in that lol-worthy Trek thread in HoS.

Another One Shot weapon, even if you count it as canon, how long it is take to set up?
Why is it never used again? Does it only effect that world? Does take so long to trigger that it could only be used on a world with no one on it to shoot back?

It was a Vor'cha Attack Cruiser (Picard was wrong to refer to it as a BoP), and I assure you it is a canon example everyone consistently ignores. Though the details of the weapon are vague, what matters is results - it completely destroys the biosphere of an M-class world in a short span of time (how short is impossible to know because the Enterprise-D arrived in the system too late to stop it when it was already in the final stages of eradicating the planet's ecology).

It's a weapon that is deployed by a Klingon ship, so one reason why we don't see it again is because our heroes aren't Klingons or work on a Klingon ship. Incidentally this is only one of many other so-called 'one shot weapons' which have examples throughout the canon (TOS with both GO24 in 'A Taste of Armageddon' and Kirk's orders to bombard Delta Vega with neutron radiation if the ship doesn't hear from him, and the DS9 episode 'For the Uniform' which had Sisko deploy a WMD bioweapon on a Maquis planet)

I'm sorry, but simply wishing that Star Trek doesn't have planetary shields won't erase all evidence we have.

Where is the rest of your evidence?

There are mentions of planetary defences in some of the movies. TMP I am reasonably certain of but I also thought they mentioned something in TVH (in both cases said defences were disabled). That's probably too vague to satisfy you, however if you extrapolate a planetary shield covering a penal colony in 'Whom Gods Destroy' (and a similar screen may have been in operation in the previous episode 'Dagger of the Mind') it's not unreasonable to have more important planets have similar if not better defences available to them.

[Stofsk]

As for Coruscants planetary shield: given that Corsucant has massive space traffic, they obviously don't have their shields up all the time.

Please tell me Star Wars planetary shields aren't an all-or-nothing deal. That is, do they have to shut the whole thing down to let one ship in?

Nah, they have many shields that are analogous to onion layers - outer layers can be switched off to let traffic in, then swtiched back on while the next layer turns off etc. The opening battle in RotS had the Confederacy fleet trapped in between these shield layers (which is why they're so close to the planet).

[Serafina]

Quite similar, wouldn't you say?

Except that we have other proof that Alderaan had a shield, specifically the novelization.

[Kythnos]

(To start this is from the TOS, you can't always take everything you see as canon although this sadly applies to all ST series.)

What are you saying here? It sounds like you're saying TOS shouldn't be cited as canon.

Another One Shot weapon, even if you count it as canon, how long it is take to set up?
Why is it never used again? Does it only effect that world? Does take so long to trigger that it could only be used on a world with no one on it to shoot back?

It was a Vor'cha Attack Cruiser (Picard was wrong to refer to it as a BoP), and I assure you it is a canon example everyone consistently ignores. Though the details of the weapon are vague, what matters is results - it completely destroys the biosphere of an M-class world in a short span of time (how short is impossible to know because the Enterprise-D arrived in the system too late to stop it when it was already in the final stages of eradicating the planet's ecology).

It's a weapon that is deployed by a Klingon ship, so one reason why we don't see it again is because our heroes aren't Klingons or work on a Klingon ship. Incidentally this is only one of many other so-called 'one shot weapons' which have examples throughout the canon (TOS with both GO24 in 'A Taste of Armageddon' and Kirk's orders to bombard Delta Vega with neutron radiation if the ship doesn't hear from him, and the DS9 episode 'For the Uniform' which had Sisko deploy a WMD bioweapon on a Maquis planet)

The main problem is all the conflicts that those one shot weapons make, why are they never seen again? (The best way to look at Star Trek Tech is to only count things that appear in more than one unconnected episode.)

Or you end up with:
Brewing a pot of Scalosian Espresso and your engineers can fix your ship faster than it can take damage. Or take apart the enemy ship, give him a butter knife and he can kill a million Jem'Hadar in a "Wink of an Eye".

Transports that work through shields, sub-space teleporters from the "Higher Ground" I think. Yes they are dangerous for long term use but it would come in very handy to save Geordi when he gets kidnapped. Too dangerous for that use them to "teleport" torpedoes on to the enemy ship, even if you are forced to use chemical warhead on them.

Torpedoes that travel FTL from Generations. Oh and I forgot they can destroy stars.

Phase-Cloaking device now that the Romulans are working with you and even gave you one of their Cloaks. I don't think they would mind you using that if you share it with them? Or even just install it on there ships.

I could go on and on with this, why are they never seen again? When you are going to lose a war with 90 billion lives lost and using Genocide as a tactic, I don't think you are holding anything back except the one shot weapons that would win you the war... wait what?

Do I have to talk about "infinite" speed? And in the TOS the Enterprise when warp 12 and 15, so is that infinite speed times 5 or an exponential increase?

It is not that you can't take anything you see but you always have to ask "Why do I never see this again?"

[Stofsk]

At least one of those things we do see again - like the trilithium device being referenced in not one but two episodes of Star Trek that I can recall (TNG's 'Starship Mine' and DS9's 'By Inferno's Light').

Phase-cloaking is dangerous and clearly not even in the 'workable prototype' stage, considering both Romulan and Federation attempts at it failed with loss of life (in the case of the Pegasus, almost the entire crew died except for Riker and Pressman and a handful of others). Your referencing warp scale differences between TOS and TNG is well taken, but my counter to that is simple. 'Canon' as far as Trek is concerned, is only a word. It's actually amusing to read people throw that word around for debates like STvsSW because Paramount's canon policy has never been immutably set in stone. All it basically means is 'the events in the show are generally accepted to have happened'. But there are clear contradictions between the shows. TOS had warp factors up to warp 15. In TNG, warp 10 was the theoretical maximum. In TOS, warp 8.5 can let you cover a thousand light years in about 12 hours. In Voyager, the same speeds could only accomplished at a year's worth of travel (IIRC they said something like it would take them 75 years to cover 75,000 light years at maximum warp).

I think you're too hung up about this notion that 'we only see such-and-such once' and perhaps you feel inclined to discount it as a result. That does a disservice to Trek in this debate however. I don't even care who wins a STvsSW debate to be honest with you, I can readily concede that Trek will lose to Wars because Wars outguns it and outnumbers it by a ridiculous amount that it would be a ludicrously one-sided affair. I just hate seeing trek-bashing arguments like 'lol their weapons are so weak they'll never peel the paint off a barn' or 'lol we never see planetary shields in Star Trek!' or 'we never see massive orbital bombardment' or 'we never see one ship threaten an entire world' when all of that is demonstrably wrong.

[Picard]

You are a moron. Neither of those require a full planetary shield. If you can't grasp the difference between a shield bubble covering a city or one covering the whole planet including it's atmosphere - well, i already said that you are a moron.

Well, no. If you keep cities but rest of bisphere is devastated, then there is no point in holding planet at all. In "Whom Gods Destroy" they were talking about penetrating shield, and it was stated that Enterprise can penetrate shield but only at cost of "destroying every living thing on Elba 2". Shield protected planet even on weakest part over side of planet opposite ayslum.

This is dialogue from "Whom Gods Destroy":

SCOTTY: "Sensor readings."

SULU: "Forcefield is weakest on far side of the planet."

VOY episode "Year of Hell" implies even relatively primitive civilizations have planetary shields. So don't call someone moron just beacouse you don't like facts.

Simply wishing that the shields bubbles we observe are comparable to SW-planetary shields won't make it so either.

Oh, but they are. ST power production is more advanced than SW.

And we have plenty more evidence than just the RotS-novelization: ANH movie and novel, multiple EU-novels, RotJ movie and book, AotC ICS.

I don't care about ICS, and not much more about EU (it simplifies things a lot), and yes I know about RotJ (althought novel supports planetary shield while movie shows shield which protects Death Star only - diagram at Rebel meeting).

The Seperatists made a surprise attack and quickly flew below that shield - it was still raised, that's mentioned in the novel, but the ships were already inside the shield.

Thanks for clearing that up.

They already destroyed one city, they obviously didn't care for it.

Head Founder was still on the planet, so yes, they pretty much cared about it. And destruction of Lakarian city might have been done by fleet or by ground troops.

Besides - why didn't they use that planetary shield?

Beacouse Dominion surrendered before Federation alliance fleet even reached Cardassia Prime. Watch episode before spewing out shit like that.

Besides - where in canon does it say that it is a long-range attack?

So you admit you NEVER read/watched anything from so-called G canon? RotS novelization specifies that Liberty "fought in furious long-range battle" just few moments before its destruction.

Which just indicates that the damaging part of the turbolaser is way faster than the tracer which we actually observe, which is backed up by canon.

Unfortunately, that interpretation is countered by every single G-canon example I can think of.

Now explain how you can derive it's vulnerability to energy weapons based on a purely kinetic impact. Or how you can derive the resilience of SW-armor based on that. Because that was the crucial point all along: Only trektards and morons do not get the difference between a pure KE-impact and something that works on thermal energy instead.

So you did not yet realize what the hell we were talking about? Important point was that there is no neutronium used in hulls of Star Wars ships. You really are queen of ignorance.

You say that the ISD's bridge was completely destroyed, what of the asteroid?

Asteroid was destroyed too.

And what is the power of Breen weapons? (their primary or most seen weapon was the energy draining effect)
How does this prove a planetary shield and not just one that covers the city?

Starfleet pushed back that attack and only "slight damage" was mentioned - probably what I call "bleedthrought damage" since ST shields do not seem to stop attacks 100%, at least if shields themselves are not at 100%. If there was no shield, and Breen were allowed to fire at will - they still had disruptors, and energy dampening weapon was not seen until after that attack - damage would most certainly not be "light", but rather excessive.

And that means the Federation has them how?

Beacouse Federation is relatively advanced civilizations, and laws of physics are same here and in some 70 000 ly distant system.

Second like this has been said before there is no proof that the shield extends over the whole planet. It just has to cover enough of the surface to prevent a rapid rescue by any other means, like the shield over the Rura Penthe mines.

It is stated that "shield is weakest at other side of planet". If it really is planetary shield, and if it covers entire planet, then everything is understandable. If it is not, well - good luck explaining.

Another One Shot weapon, even if you count it as canon, how long it is take to set up?
Why is it never used again? Does it only effect that world? Does take so long to trigger that it could only be used on a world with no one on it to shoot back?

1) There was no need.
2) No, that world was not different from any other M-class planet.
3) Unknown. But BoP has cloaking device, so you can cloak, come at planet, set it up, decloak, fire, cloak and run away.

Where is the rest of your evidence?

Never enough, eh?

Do I have to talk about "infinite" speed? And in the TOS the Enterprise when warp 12 and 15, so is that infinite speed times 5 or an exponential increase?

TOS and TNG use different warp scales. TNG scale goes only up to warp 10, which is infinite speed. TOS scale can go up to warp 100, if you wish.

[Serafina]

Well, no. If you keep cities but rest of bisphere is devastated, then there is no point in holding planet at all. In "Whom Gods Destroy" they were talking about penetrating shield, and it was stated that Enterprise can penetrate shield but only at cost of "destroying every living thing on Elba 2". Shield protected planet even on weakest part over side of planet opposite ayslum.

Given that you have never proved that "total biosphere desctruction", that's just utter nonsense.

VOY episode "Year of Hell" implies even relatively primitive civilizations have planetary shields. So don't call someone moron just beacouse you don't like facts.

That shield was protecting against time-based effects, right? How is that primitive?

Oh, but they are. ST power production is more advanced than SW.

Bullshit. They have to rely on highly unstable power plants which can't even produce a single terawatt. The total power production of the whole Alpha quadrant is less than that of the Death Star.

I don't care about ICS, and not much more about EU (it simplifies things a lot), and yes I know about RotJ (althought novel supports planetary shield while movie shows shield which protects Death Star only - diagram at Rebel meeting).

So - who is the one ignoring evidence now? You also ignored the ANH-novelization here, wanktard.

Head Founder was still on the planet, so yes, they pretty much cared about it. And destruction of Lakarian city might have been done by fleet or by ground troops.

So they can't even beam a single guy off planet? How pathetic.

So you admit you NEVER read/watched anything from so-called G canon? RotS novelization specifies that Liberty "fought in furious long-range battle" just few moments before its destruction.

Like i recall every single thing from every single SW-novel ever written That's why i was asking for sources.
Given that you are a deliberate, proven liar, it's hard to believe you. You are apparently right (the Liberty was the first ship hit by the DS II superlaser). However, you are still ignoring my cruise-missile example - and therefore, you fail yet again. Just because they call it a "long-range battle", it doesn't have to be anywhere close to their maximum effective engagement range - it just has to be outside of the "short-range battle" category, the definition of which is what we see later in the damn movie.

Unfortunately, that interpretation is countered by every single G-canon example I can think of.

Hardly - it's supported by movie visuals. But if you got evidence, just present it.

So you did not yet realize what the hell we were talking about? Important point was that there is no neutronium used in hulls of Star Wars ships. You really are queen of ignorance.

Moron. We aren't talking about the HULL of a Star Destroyer, we are talking about it's bridge.
By your logic, a modern aircraft carrier is not armored because it's bridge tower isn't.

1) There was no need.

As per you saying so. That's like saying that there was no need for nukes after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The mere existence of a weapon affects politics, even if it's not used. Yet we never observe any WMD-related politics in Star Trek.

3) Unknown. But BoP has cloaking device, so you can cloak, come at planet, set it up, decloak, fire, cloak and run away.

That assumes that SW-sensors are as crappy as ST-sensors (who can't even detect a damn dyson sphere).

S and TNG use different warp scales. TNG scale goes only up to warp 10, which is infinite speed. TOS scale can go up to warp 100, if you wish.

Wrong, retard. Threshold is, thankfully, NOT CANON.
But it's nice to see that you don't even grasp elementary logic - otherwise you would recognize that "infinite speed" makes no sense whatsover.
Besides, such a scale would be utterly impractical - your ships speed increases will have to be accounted for in tiny, tiny decimals (9.95, 9.96, 9.965 etc.) Then again, we already know that Starfleet is terrible at science and practicality, so maybe that's an entirely reasonable assumption.

[Stofsk]

I'm sure this example will be regarded as a 'one-off', like all the other one-offs, but in the alternate timeline depicted in 'Yesterday's Enterprise' the death count from the lengthy war with the Klingons had left 40 billion people dead. I doubt you can get that high a number of people dying without having things like massive orbital bombardments, planetary destruction and the like.

[Picard]

Given that you have never proved that "total biosphere desctruction", that's just utter nonsense.

They were very specific. They could blast their way through the shield, but only at cost of killing everyone and everything on surface.

That shield was protecting against time-based effects, right? How is that primitive?

WRONG. Crew of Voyager modified their shields as to protect from time-based effects, and until they did it, no-one else was able to.

Bullshit. They have to rely on highly unstable power plants which can't even produce a single terawatt. The total power production of the whole Alpha quadrant is less than that of the Death Star.

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

So - who is the one ignoring evidence now? You also ignored the ANH-novelization here, wanktard.

You ignore ENTIRE G-canon in favour of single child book. And now answer my question about novelizations - do movies override novelizations or vice versa?

So they can't even beam a single guy off planet? How pathetic.

With Federation fleet closing in and without possibility of returning to Gamma Quadrant? And planetary shield probably up and running?

Given that you are a deliberate, proven liar, it's hard to believe you.

Look who's talking. You warp laws of physics, canon policy and even direct evidence as you see fit.

However, you are still ignoring my cruise-missile example - and therefore, you fail yet again.

And what cruise missiles have in common with turbolasers? If you want to take RL example, take battleship's main guns.

it just has to be outside of the "short-range battle" category, the definition of which is what we see later in the damn movie.

We have short range and long range battle. Or we can have short, normal and long ranged battle.

Hardly - it's supported by movie visuals. But if you got evidence, just present it.

Any and every time they fire turbolasers at something. TESB asteroid destruction scene for example. Battle at end of RotJ. "Flak burst" effect we see in RotS - if bolt was just tracer, such usage would be ineffective. So either Republic soldiers and engineers are complete and utter morons, or there is no invisible portion of TL bolt.

Moron. We aren't talking about the HULL of a Star Destroyer, we are talking about it's bridge.
By your logic, a modern aircraft carrier is not armored because it's bridge tower isn't.

Except that modern aircraft carrier is not armored. It relies on active defense - like anti-ballistic missiles, CIWS, its own planes, anti-ship and anti-air missiles - to protect itself.
And tower is one of most important parts of Star Destroyer. Plus novelization explicitly states that Star Destroyer in question was destroyed.

As per you saying so. That's like saying that there was no need for nukes after Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The mere existence of a weapon affects politics, even if it's not used. Yet we never observe any WMD-related politics in Star Trek.

Were there cities nuked after Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Would you take nukes and start nuking cities (starting WW3 in process) just for fun? Or you will do it only when really needed?

That assumes that SW-sensors are as crappy as ST-sensors (who can't even detect a damn dyson sphere).

And ISD could not detect Millenium Falcon sitting on its hull. And no other ships noticed it either. I'm sorry, but such stunt would not pass with ST ships.

Threshold is, thankfully, NOT CANON.

But IT IS. We have references of Warp 10 as being "infinite speed" in Voyager.

But it's nice to see that you don't even grasp elementary logic - otherwise you would recognize that "infinite speed" makes no sense whatsover.

So you're stupid. Thanks for confirmation. Do you know what speed is? It is distance covered per unit of time. Any distance covered while unit of time equals zero is infinite. Never wondered why you were not allowed to divide with zero in primary school?

Besides, such a scale would be utterly impractical - your ships speed increases will have to be accounted for in tiny, tiny decimals (9.95, 9.96, 9.965 etc.)

Which is exactly what happens. We have warp 9, warp 9.6, warp 9.9, warp 9.985, warp 9.99....

[Serafina]

Still, if he's to be believed, you're a million times off the mark.

Now who is ignoring canon? It's dialogue, so it's of course okay to discard it by sane standards, but who did ever claim that Picard was sane?
Regardless of that, SW power generation is still massively better than the Federations. Unless you believe Picards "super-deuterium" wank and the rest of his bullshit calculations, that is.

In Star Trek IV, the Klingon Ambassador threw an all out scene about the Federation creating a doomsday device in Genesis. I imagine a starship being able to bombard them is one thing - they can handle starships - but a torpedo the size of a man taking them out instantly is a whole other kettle of fish.

But according to Picards firepower calculation, a small fleet can severely devastate a planet. If they had gigaton-torpedoes and tens of thousands of ships, muster a small, cloaked fleet of a dozen battleships and you can threaten every single Federation world with near-annihilation.
Yet we never see that. None of the villains is ever going "screw that, i'll just blow that planet to hell". We never see any implications of that supposed enormous firepower.

(Interestingly, 6 of the 11 movies include a WMD playing a role in direct some way to the plot: Wrath of Khan, Search for Spock, Generations, Insurrection, Nemesis, and the new film that I haven't yet seen. And Genesis played a minor role in The Voyage Home, so we could bring the count up to 7. Most of those examples were in the private hands of madmen. The two that had government contracts, Genesis and Insurrection, made the ambassadors and/or captains go wild over it.

That might be seven films, but it's only five instances. Genesis could likely be used as a WMD. but only on a single planet, not a star system. Insurrection only worked on a single planet with very specific conditions, there is no proof that it would work on anything else.
Nemesis was not seen in action and was actually very nonthreatening - if they had these gigaton-torpedoes, using them would be far easier. You could to that damage with smaller ships in a shorter time. Nemesis is actually excellent proof that their WMD-capabilities suck.
The new Trek movie actually does establish Red Matter in the main continuity - a couple of dozens of years into the future. Even so, it just sucks as a weapon - you have to drill for about half an hour just in order to destroy a single planet. Again, if they had those gigaton-torpedoes, that would be irrelevant, since it could be done easier and faster.

When a bounty hunter in Star Wars blows up a few asteroids, everyone masturbates furiously to the easily available pews pews and bombs. When independent madmen blow up worlds or solar systems in Star Trek, on at least three separate occasions, it's ignored as a "one off". Actually, Shinzon failing is the outlier - Khan actually detonated Genesis and Soran succeeded in blowing up the Veridian star!)

None of that was done by the Federation. Two of those are lost technology and possibly technobabble with limited use, one was done by another species. Those ARE outliers, while nothing indicates that Jango Fetts bombs are special in any way.

SW sensors are the same ones that couldn't detect enemy fighters that were right on top of them. Yes yes "jamming", I know.

No, you fool. A simple blind spot directly on the hull. Unless you are not talking about the Millenium Falcon, that is.

That's exactly how warp speeds worked in TNG+ and in Star Trek IV. (with the exception of All Good Things in the future.)

And it's impractical. And just because the scale theoretically has infinite speed at warp 10, actually reaching it still violates not only physics, but also logic.

[Purple]

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

As evidenced by?

Any and every time they fire turbolasers at something. TESB asteroid destruction scene for example. Battle at end of RotJ. "Flak burst" effect we see in RotS - if bolt was just tracer, such usage would be ineffective. So either Republic soldiers and engineers are complete and utter morons, or there is no invisible portion of TL bolt.

What exactly has lead you to this conclusion other than personal opinion?
I mean, what exactly do you consider stupid in having a tracer for your rounds? It would also explain why different sides in the conflict had different colored weapons without meaningful differences in effective strength.

[Imperial528]

Asteroid was destroyed too.

Okay.

Now, I was looking at the pictures and numbers on your blog, just to check your math, and I noticed that the three screen shots don't match up. Assuming they are in order, the bridge is clearly visible at the end of the sequence. However, if I assume that they go as 1st, 3rd, 2nd, then the problem becomes that we see no ejecta from the bridge except for debris from the asteroid, unless you want to claim that the bridge was vaporized, which is clearly not the case.

[Serafina]

Beware, more utter stupidity. Nothing special, just repeated "you are wrong, i am right" without any argument or evidence.

They were very specific. They could blast their way through the shield, but only at cost of killing everyone and everything on surface.

Everyone or everything? How about quoting the episode?

WRONG. Crew of Voyager modified their shields as to protect from time-based effects, and until they did it, no-one else was able to.

That planet apparently was. So you can hardly call them primitive.

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

According to your bullshit-calculations, maybe. Not according to actual ST-reality tough, since we never see firepower that is even close to that. But in SW, we see that firepower.

You ignore ENTIRE G-canon in favour of single child book. And now answer my question about novelizations - do movies override novelizations or vice versa?

Child book? Canon is canon, regardless of whether it was written for children or not. And while the movie overrides the novelization if the movie actually contradicts the novelization, nothing in the movie says that Alderaan has no planetary shields. Furthermore, nothing in RotJ says that Endor has no planetary shield either - you are focussing solely on a diagram. Diagrams are by their very nature supposed to illustrate relevant things. They acted as if it had a planetary shield, otherwise there would be no need to steal a shuttle and codes and lower the shield in order to land on Endor.

And what cruise missiles have in common with turbolasers? If you want to take RL example, take battleship's main guns.

Nice red herring, idiot.
Okay, time to explain the point for really dumb morons, specifically Picard who didn't get it over the last couple of posts. Just because someone referrs to something as "long range", it doesn't have to be anywhere close to the maximum engagement range of that weapon. My cruise-missile example was supposed to illustrate that: Most people, perhaps even those in the military, would call a cruise missile attacking something 100 km away a "long-range attack". But the cruise missile can attack something up to 25-times that distance away.
Likewise, just because someone referred to the Victory being engaged in "long-range battle", it doesn't mean that it's at the upper edge of it's range. Long-range could simply refer to the distance where formations are still effective, or where certain weapons can't be used. It could also be a comparison to the change in the engagement later on: What happened to the Victory caused the rebel fleet to close range, which caused the two enemy formations to intermingle.
In other words: You can NOT conclude that the engagement in RotJ was anywhere close to the maximum engagement range for SW-ships.

Any and every time they fire turbolasers at something. TESB asteroid destruction scene for example. Battle at end of RotJ. "Flak burst" effect we see in RotS - if bolt was just tracer, such usage would be ineffective. So either Republic soldiers and engineers are complete and utter morons, or there is no invisible portion of TL bolt.

But we clearly see that TLs can damage their target before the visible part hits. Furthermore, you ignore the possibilities of adjustable bolt speed or the bolt gaining speed over distance (by turning energy into speed).

Except that modern aircraft carrier is not armored. It relies on active defense - like anti-ballistic missiles, CIWS, its own planes, anti-ship and anti-air missiles - to protect itself.
And tower is one of most important parts of Star Destroyer. Plus novelization explicitly states that Star Destroyer in question was destroyed.

Ah, just as i suspected (well, it's a common trait for Trektards), you are also ignorant about real life. Modern aircraft carries have at least eight inches of modern armor, and the structure is designed to act as additional armor - you can actually see that when you cross between decks.
While the bridge tower is undoubtedly important, the ship CAN operate without it. And the novelization doesn't state that that ship was destroyed by that single impact - even if it did, the movie would override that.

Were there cities nuked after Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Would you take nukes and start nuking cities (starting WW3 in process) just for fun? Or you will do it only when really needed?

Again, your ignorance about real life is stunning. Go read up on nuclear politics - there is that little thing called "cold war". No, that term isn't from Star Trek.
Star Trek is actually in a situation where a first strike would be successful enough that it could prevent most of the enemy retaliation. Yet we never see a single consequence we would expect to see if a single ship could annihilate a planet.

And ISD could not detect Millenium Falcon sitting on its hull. And no other ships noticed it either. I'm sorry, but such stunt would not pass with ST ships.

Sigh - a long-ago debunked argument, just like the rest of your crap. Just because it's own hull provides a blind spot in which a small ship can hide, that doesn't say anything about the abilities of it's sensors when you don't hide in that blind spot.

But IT IS. We have references of Warp 10 as being "infinite speed" in Voyager.

Threshold has been taken out of canon, because it was such utter crap. Go look it up on Google.

So you're stupid. Thanks for confirmation. Do you know what speed is? It is distance covered per unit of time. Any distance covered while unit of time equals zero is infinite. Never wondered why you were not allowed to divide with zero in primary school?

Not allowed to divide by zero? Do you think anything happens if you try?
You CAN NOT DIVIDE BY ZERO because it's mathematically impossible. Furthermore, it's obvious that you do not grasp the concept of infinity.

Do we really need any further proof for this guys idiocy?

[Serafina]

Wong's reasoning that I linked to was based on observed events putting it into tens of thousands of terawatts. Your claim that they can't even produce a single terawatt seems to be unfounded.

It's called sarcasm. I though what i wrote right after that made that clear?

A small fleet can devastate a planet. We see it happen. Single ships can too.

Yet we never see the political implications. That point just keeps getting ignored.

In "The Defector" (TNG) the title character brings information that Romulan fleets were taking up a position to do exactly that, and the Cardassian fleet in "Chain of Command" were planning to do the same.

In "The Changing Face of Evil" (DS9), the Breen attempt to actually carry out such an attack.

Well, that's something, i'll look into it later.

Why would cloaked ships not end wars instantly though? Tachyon detection grids, seen in "Apocalypse Rising" (DS9) and "Redemption Part 2" (TNG).

But those are difficult to establish. Space is vast enough that they could simply slip past them.

Wrong again, that's exactly what the Founders said to Cardassia at the end of DS9.

And they failed utterly, which is a point i made already.

So much that even slaves in Star Trek can get their hands on planet killers! A fairly shitty one, but one nonetheless.

Backed up by the resources of the Romulan Empire. Even if they stole it, that doesn't say much.

Genesis was, and there were indications that the technology could indeed be rebuilt (that's what the Klingons in Star Trek III were trying to do!).

Of course it COULD have been rebuild, but it never was (if so, where?). But the plans were lost, and nobody tried to pick up on that research.

Soran's weapon was also the driving plot, though on a smaller scale, in the TNG episode "Starship Mine" and was attempted to be reused by the Dominion in "By Inferno's Light". That "one off" appeared in two separate episodes in two separate series as well as a feature film! Apparently, it also made an appearance in Voyager.

And Memory Alpha reminds me: Soran blew up not one, but two stars in that movie.

In "Starship Mine", it is stated that the main building block, trilithium, is a byproduct of warp drive operation. There's no indication that it is anything special either. Protomatter, the secret key to Genesis, isn't a one off either, having appeared again twice in DS9 and once in Voyager.

And yet, we still don't see any of the implications.
Besides, that weapon is missing the point, since it has nothing to do with starship-firepower (so is Genesis, by the way). You have a habit of ignoring my actual points: Here it was that ST-ships do not have the firepower to quickly devastate planets.
Devices that do not rely on the ships weapons are red herrings in that regard

ANH: "My scope's clear, I don't see anything!"

"Pick up your visual scanning."

And almost immediately, Luke sees the three fighters that were right behind them.

Their totally fucking awesome sensors failed where the pilot's eyeballs succeeded.

Jamming? Anyone? As given by canon?
How is that indicative of the sensors of large spaceships sensors, or unjammed sensors?

[Batman]

I'd just like to comment on this:

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

Anybody else have a problem with the big E annihilating in excess of 64,888 tons of fuel every second?

[Purple]

The alleged* tracer travels at a wildly different speed than the alleged damaging portion. All the alleged evidence for their alleged existence comes from places where they failed to do their alleged job - where the visible part and the alleged invisible part did not line up.

Tracers are used to adjust your targeting, no? What good is a tracer that is wildly inaccurate relative to the main weapon?

* The only evidence people have for that are special effects errors. Canon literalism at its worst.

Oh, now I get what it's about.
I thought he complained that having visual tracers at all was stupid.
Yes, if the only reason why tracers would be assumed is the afore mentioned effects error than they are stupid.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I'd just like to comment on this:

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

Anybody else have a problem with the big E annihilating in excess of 64,888 tons of fuel every second?

Perhaps it works by magic that gives you more energy than the kind of annihilation we know of? No, I'm not suggesting that it really is so, because it has to my knowledge been fairly well establish that the Enterprise uses conventional, non-magical matter-antimatter annihilation. It's just an example that a lot of this debate revolves around who's magic is more potent. SW hypermatter is purely magical, unlike ST M/A reactors, but nobody seems to have any problem with that. And yeah, it does make sense in an extremely limited way, but I still find it somewhat funny that ST is actually disadvantaged by the fact that its power generation relies on something with a distant resemblance to real life physics, even if the actual functioning of the warp core is pure magic as well.

[takemeout_totheblack]

I'd just like to comment on this:

Wrong. Standard power production of Galaxy class starship is over 12 000 petawatts at minimum. More like 5.84x10e24 W.

Anybody else have a problem with the big E annihilating in excess of 64,888 tons of fuel every second?

I would, but the 60000 character limit prevents me from accurately describing everything wrong with Picard's statement. So I will merely close by saying Picard's ass must be a Rotating White Hole, because he seems to be pulling these figures and numbers from some Bizzaro universe where they apparently make sense!
I advise anyone who fancies themselves a jolly old romp at the expense of a delusional trektard to read his blog, it's like listening to an Uwe Boll commentary, so wrong in every conceivable way and yet so entertaining!

[SeaTrooper]

Tachyon detection grids? Weren't they heavily reliant on the number of ships you could pull together, each linked to form this grid? Seems a rather cumbersome way to catch a cloaked ship, even if does have to pass precisely through the extremely small (by space standards) area that you are covering.

[Picard]

Everyone or everything? How about quoting the episode?

There are 2 episodes where we get details about TOS Enterprise possibly destroying planet.

Kirk: "Scotty! General order 24 in 2 hours!"

(...)

Kirk to Eminiarian leader: "You heard me giving General Order 24. That means that in 2 hours Enterprise will destroy Eminiar 7."

(...)

Scotty: "In 1 hor 24 minutes entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed."

(...)

Kirk: "We make the real thing, Councelor. I could destroy this planet."

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... stered.jpg

However, episode I was originally talking about is "Whom Gods Destroy." Planet is covered by shield, and it is stated that Enterprise "can blast throught shield but only at cost of destroying every living thing on Elba 2." So even colateral damage of ship blasting throught shields would devastate planetary surface.

Sulu: "We can't beam anyone down sir. Forcefield on planet is in full operation and all forms of transport into asylum dome are blocked."

Scotty: "We could blast our way throught that field but only at risk of destroying captain, mr Spock and every other living thing at Elba 2."

McCoy: "How could we be powerful enough to destroy a planet and still be so helpless."

It seems to suggests that weapons (possibly torpedoes) at full power would destroy good portion of planetary surface via colateral damage. McCoy's quote suggests that Enterprise can destroy life on entire planet. Granted, he is doctor, but he should know general abilities of ship he is on. All of above examples point out to gigaton-level torpedoes; high megatons at least.

That planet apparently was. So you can hardly call them primitive.

Which planet? I do not recall anyone being able to protect themselves from Krenim temporal weapon before Voyager discovered it.

According to your bullshit-calculations, maybe. Not according to actual ST-reality tough, since we never see firepower that is even close to that. But in SW, we see that firepower.

No. In Star Trek, we do see gigaton-level firepower on multiple occasions, and teraton-to petaton range weapons are seen or implied few more times.

Child book? Canon is canon, regardless of whether it was written for children or not. And while the movie overrides the novelization if the movie actually contradicts the novelization, nothing in the movie says that Alderaan has no planetary shields. Furthermore, nothing in RotJ says that Endor has no planetary shield either - you are focussing solely on a diagram. Diagrams are by their very nature supposed to illustrate relevant things. They acted as if it had a planetary shield, otherwise there would be no need to steal a shuttle and codes and lower the shield in order to land on Endor.

Nothing in movie says that Alderaan had planetary shield. Nothing in movie says that Ednor had planetary shields. Only novelization did.

Just because someone referrs to something as "long range", it doesn't have to be anywhere close to the maximum engagement range of that weapon.

No, but it must be above normal engagement range. Since turbolasers are main weapons in Star Wars... logic dictates it is at least in upper half of effective TL range.

In other words: You can NOT conclude that the engagement in RotJ was anywhere close to the maximum engagement range for SW-ships.

Except for what I mentioned above. Plus speed of TL bolts (which are damaging component as seen every time in movie someone fired turbolasers at target) do not allow ranges of more than few hundred to few thousand kilometers between Star Destroyers. ST ships are more manouverable, have greater acceleration and maximum speed and are smaller so effective range of turbolasers versus Federation capital ships will be way lower than this.

But we clearly see that TLs can damage their target before the visible part hits.

No we don't.

Furthermore, you ignore the possibilities of adjustable bolt speed or the bolt gaining speed over distance (by turning energy into speed).

And losing firepower.

Ah, just as i suspected (well, it's a common trait for Trektards), you are also ignorant about real life. Modern aircraft carries have at least eight inches of modern armor, and the structure is designed to act as additional armor - you can actually see that when you cross between decks.
While the bridge tower is undoubtedly important, the ship CAN operate without it. And the novelization doesn't state that that ship was destroyed by that single impact - even if it did, the movie would override that.

Single anti-ship missile or torpedo can blow huge hole in carrier's hull. That "armor" can protect only against natural hazards and small-caliber ammunition. And yes, novelization states that ISD was destroyed, and movie can't override it since we don't actually see fate of ISD in question.

Again, your ignorance about real life is stunning. Go read up on nuclear politics - there is that little thing called "cold war". No, that term isn't from Star Trek.
Star Trek is actually in a situation where a first strike would be successful enough that it could prevent most of the enemy retaliation. Yet we never see a single consequence we would expect to see if a single ship could annihilate a planet.

Amount of illogic you just displayed is extremely stunning. Ships cannot annihilate planet if it is protected by planetary shields. Shields which are strongly supported by ST canon.
I know about Cold War - status quo between USA and USSR; both sides possesed large amount of nuclear weapons which were never used and mainly acted as deterrent.

But we do see consequences. If planetary shield is up, you can't transport ground troops. If it is down, you can simply obliterate planet. Thus lack of ground army in Star Trek - plus orbiting starships can blow up anything on planet below if they decide to send ground troops to capture planet, rather to obliterate it.

Sigh - a long-ago debunked argument, just like the rest of your crap. Just because it's own hull provides a blind spot in which a small ship can hide, that doesn't say anything about the abilities of it's sensors when you don't hide in that blind spot.

Debunked? I doubt so. But that blind spot makes logic if globes on top of ISD's bridge are actually radar domes.

Threshold has been taken out of canon, because it was such utter crap. Go look it up on Google.

I looked it up and it is still there.

Not allowed to divide by zero? Do you think anything happens if you try?
You CAN NOT DIVIDE BY ZERO because it's mathematically impossible. Furthermore, it's obvious that you do not grasp the concept of infinity.

And you don't grasp mathematics.

[Picard]

Perhaps it works by magic that gives you more energy than the kind of annihilation we know of? No, I'm not suggesting that it really is so, because it has to my knowledge been fairly well establish that the Enterprise uses conventional, non-magical matter-antimatter annihilation. It's just an example that a lot of this debate revolves around who's magic is more potent. SW hypermatter is purely magical, unlike ST M/A reactors, but nobody seems to have any problem with that. And yeah, it does make sense in an extremely limited way, but I still find it somewhat funny that ST is actually disadvantaged by the fact that its power generation relies on something with a distant resemblance to real life physics, even if the actual functioning of the warp core is pure magic as well.

Ultra-dense deuterium. Only thing that I found and that actually fits with canon.

would, but the 60000 character limit prevents me from accurately describing everything wrong with Picard's statement.

No. Fact that nothing is wrong with that argument prevents you from that.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 181356.htm

[Serafina]

No. In Star Trek, we do see gigaton-level firepower on multiple occasions, and teraton-to petaton range weapons are seen or implied few more times.

Didn't you read the "according to your bullshit-calculations"-bit? Because sensible calculations put them into KT or maybe low MT-range.

Nothing in movie says that Alderaan had planetary shield. Nothing in movie says that Ednor had planetary shields. Only novelization did.

Moron - you do not even understand the meaning of the word "contradiction". It's a contradiction when the movie says "there is no planetary shield". None of the movies does that. Given that the novelizations are still G-canon, you have to deal with it, wanker.

No, but it must be above normal engagement range. Since turbolasers are main weapons in Star Wars... logic dictates it is at least in upper half of effective TL range.

Bullshit. Nearly every engagement by long-range weapons can reasonably be called long-range. When artillery is firing at something, it's called a long-range attack. When we fire a cruise missiles at something, it will be fired at "long range", even when that missile only attacks something 100km away (and it can go up to 2500km). When Russia fires ICBMs at Great Britain, it's certainly a long-range attack, even tough they have a much longer range. When a battleship shoots as something 10 km away, you can call it long range, even tough the guns can fire about four times further.

You are taking a single line about "long range" and interpret it as "at the upper limit of range", even tough long range doesn't have to mean anything of that kind. It can be a purely subjective statement, or it can simply refer to something else than short range.

Single anti-ship missile or torpedo can blow huge hole in carrier's hull. That "armor" can protect only against natural hazards and small-caliber ammunition. And yes, novelization states that ISD was destroyed, and movie can't override it since we don't actually see fate of ISD in question.

You think modern aircraft carriers can be heavily damaged by a single missile, and that the armor is only supposed to protect against "natural hazards"? Then why don't we see armor plating on ocean cruisers?
Truly, truly, you are utterly ignorant.

Amount of illogic you just displayed is extremely stunning. Ships cannot annihilate planet if it is protected by planetary shields. Shields which are strongly supported by ST canon.
I know about Cold War - status quo between USA and USSR; both sides possesed large amount of nuclear weapons which were never used and mainly acted as deterrent.

They were pretty damn close to being used a couple of times. That's because no one is holding back anymore when the shit already went up. But hey, we can't expect some idiot to grasp anything about real life, now can we?

And you don't grasp mathematics.

Really? Then maybe your genius can explain it to me.


And for fucks sake, get some proper grammar. My 14-year old step-brother types better English than you. Oh, and a spell-checker won't hurt either.