Can Federation destroy Death Stars

[the atom]

I thought shuttles would be the closest thing the Feds have to a fighter, seeing as it has played that role once or twice. What's a Peregrine fighter?

Something like this. Actual bona fide UFP fighter craft.

Interesting. And if the episode is any indication, fighters are actually fairly commonplace. You learn something new every day I guess.

[Connor MacLeod]

Or, the "fighters" are actually just multipuprose vessels like a good many starfleet designs (military/exploration/scientific/etc.). Starfleet seems to favor a more age of sail "generalist" approach to ship design rather than something more specialized, so it seems likely that the ship can be used equally well for military and nonmilitary purposes. Besides, there's plenty of reasons to have a well armed freighter/courier.

[Darth Tedious]

Nevertheless, they still have more in common with a shuttlecraft than an X-Wing.

True, but if I were going to be having a few hundred turbolaser towers pointing at me I'd sure as shit rather be in one of those things than a large flying box.
I mean, seriously:
Smaller profile = slightly smaller chance of having the fuck shot out of you.

[Panzersharkcat]

Nevertheless, they still have more in common with a shuttlecraft than an X-Wing.

True, but if I were going to be having a few hundred turbolaser towers pointing at me I'd sure as shit rather be in one of those things than a large flying box.
I mean, seriously:
Smaller profile = slightly smaller chance of having the fuck shot out of you.

Plus, a built-in hyperdrive means that I can amscray the fuck out of there if I get cold feet. The Rebel Alliance wouldn't be too happy with me absconding in one of their fighters but I can hopefully escape to some backwater planet that nobody cares about and pray that nobody will care enough to pursue me.

[Danny]

I gotta say no...

For the federation to even get close to the Death Star is based on a major assumption they can even get that close in the first place. The Death Star [as seen in return of the jedi] can destroy ships at an impressive rate. Since it dosent require a tremendous amount of energy to destroy a mon calamari battlecruiser as it did alderaan, its doubtful any fleet would survive an assault on the Death Star.

[Azron_Stoma]

"significantly more powerful then the anti-fighter turrets on the Death Star."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't the nature of the blast spread the energy out more, while a particle beam would be more focused, making it more effective given the amount of energy used?

Also I don't recall there being much if any anti-fighter turrets on the DS1, hence why the turrets they were using were missing so much. There's also the factor of the DS1's jamming dropping the Fighter's maneuverability like a stone. I wonder what kind of effect that would have on impulse engines, more effective? less effective? no difference?

Also that link is dead, what episode was that of originally? I recall seeing a Runabout blown up in a split second by T'Lani Phasers/Disruptors/Whateverbeams in DS9 "Armageddon Game" as well as one getting shot down by a 900 megajoule blast in "Battle Lines" a season earlier. I was under the Impression that Runabouts were the most powerfully shielded "shuttlecraft" to the point where they are actually considered their own ships.

[Darth Tedious]

with a sci fi efficiency of 99.999%, that means the runabout was hit with a 100 kiloton beam. Times the phaser bonus of 1,000 witnessed elsewhere, that means a runabout - a very small starship, about the size of a shuttle, can take 100 megatons and still survive well enough to crash land.

Are you sure about those numbers, dude?

10,000 GJ = 2.390057361 kton

http://www.unitconversion.org/energy/gi ... rsion.html

Contrast that with the Imperial Star Destroyer destroyed by a 100 kiloton inert impact in the G-level canon film, The Empire Strikes Back. Federation runabouts are orders of magnitude tougher than Imperial warships. I pity the Imperial fool who goes up against a full sized Federation starship!

Uh, dude...

During a search for the Millennium Falcon in a particularly dense and unstable asteroid belt, one of Lord Vader's star destroyer escorts suffered serious collisional damage. A fast-moving asteroid of approximately 70m diameter slipped into contact with the destroyer before the gunnery crews had a chance to blast it. The object exceeded the capacity of the deflector shields around the command tower, which were already undermined by continual pummelling and whatever effects had earlier been suffered at the hands of the Hoth rebel ion cannon operators. Both the asteroid and the tower were obliterated. The remainder of the ship flew onwards. [Michael Wong originally investigated the kinetics of this event. I independently repeated this work, but with a more refined estimate of the asteroid's velocity.] Judging by the observed size and velocity of the asteroid, and assuming a typical ferrous asteroidal composition, the kinetic energy involved in the collision was in excess of

E > 5 x 1014 J.

Emphasis mine.

[Azron_Stoma]

The thing takes place over several seconds. So it's not 900 MJ - joules and watts aren't the same thing.

Obviously but she said 900MW a second before it got shot, granted the power from the lower figures likely added to that.

Not even going to bother with the nonsensical idea of a Runabout being tougher than an ISD.

[Darth Tedious]

@ DXIII: I understand your calcs now, but I really must dispute their basis.

Firstly, the line of dialogue states:

KIRA: (urgent) ... Reading a significant power build- up in the satellite... six hundred megawatts... nine hundred...

She says "power build-up in the satellite". Not coming from it.
While I like your suggestion that it was waste heat/emissions that were being detected, it is an assumption on your part. It is just as fair to assume that the sophisticated computer systems linked to the sensors were interpolating the overall energy output from the waste emissions bieng detected (or that Kira was doing so herself).
This reconciles perfectly with the line of dialogue, but there still remains the possiblity that the line was to be taken at face value.

Secondly, the rate of efficiency that you use to calc the overall power level is unsupported, and could be deemed arbitrary. Can you provide examples to show that typical Trek weapons and technology operates at 99.999% efficiency? (even if you can, the number remains dubious, as the satellite in question was not typical)

And thirdly, your 1000x multiplyer for phaser effects needs to be supported.

Somewhat off-topic, I'm actually slightly disappointed that noone else has even bothered to dispute this. Perhaps it's the weekend, or perhaps there's some complacency around here...

It's possible that the rest of the ship could still fight (despite less serious damage still leading directly to the Executor being knocked out of the fight in the next film), but there's no denying that the impact absolutely destroyed what it hit.

Funnily enough, there is actually evidence against the claim that the bridge tower was completely destroyed...

You can clearly see the silhouette of the rear section against the light from the Executor's engines. From what visual evidence is available, anywhere up to three quarters of the tower may have survived. We can only be sure that the globe was destroyed, as its silhouette is missing.
I'm pretty surprised noone has brought that up before, too...

[Darth Tedious]

Yea, all firepower calcs are bullshit based on piles of assumptions. Mine too

Fair enough. It's hard to argue when you put it like that.

Even though, the main point is: it's just another factor we don't really know.

Yeah, there's too many of those. The writers really never consider us versus debaters when they come up with these things.

Find the firepower heading here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
They seem to take GW in, but have TW effects vs armor, and even more vs shields.

Going with 10,000 is probably better supported, maybe even 100,000, but I wanted to be conservative to show just how ridiculously one sided the battle is.

Interesting- though that is phasers against shields and particular forms of armour, not a universal rule. Perhaps a more salient point I could have made is that we don't even know what kind of weapon was used (another unknown factor!). From the flash of light, sound effect and result, it appeared to have been a pulse or burst rather than a beam, which would be more consistant with disruptors, although it was in the Gamma Quadrant and belonged to an unknown race so it could have been just about anything... damn unknowns.

All you can see is small outline of the back... the rest of it is gone without a trace - the globes, the starboard section, the front, all just disappeared. The captain disappears and dialog backs it up - the captains didn't want to go in the asteroid field, they took serious damage, and 3PO said the odds are 3000 to 1.

Actually, it was 3,720 to 1.
We don't actually get to see the explosion clear, the starboard side could still have been there (!unkonwn!). There were no lights behind it to indicate whether it was still there or not. Even the captain's hologram disappearing could be due to a loss of comms.
But yes, asteroids are dangerous as fuck. It is fairly reasonable to assume that the ship was later fully destroyed.

That outline remaining is most likely an effects error - they outlined the ship to make it disappear and didn't fill in the back color (probably figuring it's so brief and obscured that moviegoers wouldn't see it anyway).

If only they knew how much attention would be paid...
The outline is there for the last three or four frames (out of curiousity, I had a look in frame-by-frame on both the theatrical and SE versions). We'll have to see if they fix it in the Blu-Ray!

And anyhow, we analyse FX errors as if they were real, don't we? I mean, that's why blasters are actually an invisible beam and the coloured part is just a tracer, right?

Even if you take it literally though, it just shows some debris that hasn't dissipated yet.

Not really, as I said, it's solid for a few frames.
Not that this is terribly important, I just find it hilarious that no Warsies (that I'm aware of) have made this point before. After all the times this brief sequence has been screenshotted and picked apart, has noone seen that silhouette?

[Danny]

A runabout more powerful than an ISD? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL even as a trekkie i cry bullshit to that. Maybe if the runabout did a kamikaze run on the ISD bridge after it blew off its shield generators [which are clearly visibile as having testicles ontop of the brai----bridge]. Hey if an A-wing fighter did it, a runabout should be no problem.

[Omeganian]

Find the firepower heading here:

http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tec ... Beam1.html
They seem to take GW in, but have TW effects vs armor, and even more vs shields.

Going with 10,000 is probably better supported, maybe even 100,000, but I wanted to be conservative to show just how ridiculously one sided the battle is.

Interesting- though that is phasers against shields and particular forms of armour, not a universal rule. Perhaps a more salient point I could have made is that we don't even know what kind of weapon was used (another unknown factor!). From the flash of light, sound effect and result, it appeared to have been a pulse or burst rather than a beam, which would be more consistant with disruptors, although it was in the Gamma Quadrant and belonged to an unknown race so it could have been just about anything... damn unknowns.

Yeah, I can just imagine a worst case scenario for the Federation:

"Captain, they are now locking nadion emitters on us."
"Nadion!?"
"Yes, sir."
"No nadion sensitive shield was used on a warship in over 15 000 years. Don't they know that?"

[Connor MacLeod]

The obvious question regarding the asteroid scene is: a.) how long were they in the field b.) what sorts of collisions (and how many) did they take, c.) Was their velocity constnat, or did it increase, decrease, or whatever.

[Batman]

A runabout more powerful than an ISD? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL even as a trekkie i cry bullshit to that. Maybe if the runabout did a kamikaze run on the ISD bridge after it blew off its shield generators [which are clearly visibile as having testicles ontop of the brai----bridge]. Hey if an A-wing fighter did it, a runabout should be no problem.

So how exactly is Starfleet going to reproduce the massive fleet bombardment that brought down Executors shields which was what made the A-wing's suicide run possible to begin with? (not that those being shield generators is all that well established to begin with, the EU can't seem to make up its mind about that).

[Panzersharkcat]

A runabout more powerful than an ISD? LOLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL even as a trekkie i cry bullshit to that. Maybe if the runabout did a kamikaze run on the ISD bridge after it blew off its shield generators [which are clearly visibile as having testicles ontop of the brai----bridge]. Hey if an A-wing fighter did it, a runabout should be no problem.

So how exactly is Starfleet going to reproduce the massive fleet bombardment that brought down Executors shields which was what made the A-wing's suicide run possible to begin with? (not that those being shield generators is all that well established to begin with, the EU can't seem to make up its mind about that).

Wookieepedia says they are shield generators but they make much more sense as sensor domes. Since I'm still working my way through TOS, I have to ask the question of what's the speed and maneuverability of a Runabout compared to that of an A-wing fighter? The only info I can find on Memory Alpha on this is that it's warp-capable.

[Imperial528]

The globes themselves are sensors, the shield projectors are mounted on top of them, Wookiepedia says as much. IIRC that arrangement was originally established by the ICS; I would confirm but I cannot find my OT copy at the moment.

[Stark]

The only reason they're shield generators is fatty nerd completionism. ROTJ doesn't really support it, but god knows you can't throw out shitty WEG books.

[Batman]

Why would there be any gap? They'd obviously already lost shields before the A-wing toasted whatever those globes are, else it wouldn't have been able to do it to begin with.

I also didn't get the plasma coils comment.

[Batman]

Why would there be any gap? They'd obviously already lost shields before the A-wing toasted whatever those globes are, else it wouldn't have been able to do it to begin with.

Then, why did the sequence go:
1) Ackbar gives orders
2) Pilots follow orders
3) Shield lost line
instead of the shield lost line being first?
Sometimes the movies will rewind a little to show simultaneous events, but I don't believe the Star Wars movies have ever shown a battle out of order just because.

Which means the shields failed because of the A-wing attack on the globes as evidenced by? The shields failed sometime between Ackbar's command and the' we've lost the bridge deflector shields' comment. Onus is on you to prove that it was the fighter attack that did it.

As to your claim that it's impossible for them to hit it unless the shields were already down, there's simply no evidence for that at all.

There's no evidence for the attack on the globes being what killed the bridge deflectors either, doesn't seem to have stopped you claiming that. And yes, I think that being able to hit the shield generator only if the shield is already down (or you're already inside it) is a rather sensible assumption.

[Batman]

I dunno. Was there a scene before that asked a not inconsiderable number of warships to blow to smithereens the roof that would otherwise keep you dry?

[Danny]

So how exactly is Starfleet going to reproduce the massive fleet bombardment that brought down Executors shields which was what made the A-wing's suicide run possible to begin with? (not that those being shield generators is all that well established to begin with, the EU can't seem to make up its mind about that).

i wouldnt exactly say "massive fleet bombardment". The Rebel fleet was more or less engaging the rest of the star destroyer fleet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNFMrLO ... re=related @ 3:16.

The fleet was dispersed. If you click on the earlier videos, you see background segments where the rebel fleet was essentially scattered all over the place, being attacked by ISD themselves. They didnt all attack the executor. 2 A-wing fighters destroyed the right "bridge deflector shield" after Admiral Ackbar ordered them to concentrate all fire on the super star destroyer. This allowed a damaged A wing to crash right into the bridge, making it go adrift. Starfleet ships may not be as big, but im pretty sure they can take on a super star destroyer. If 3 A- wings helped level the tide of battle, im sure a federation fleet can do the same.

If those pair of balls arent shield generators, well then i dont know what to tell you buddy. dosent change the fact the executor still got pwned by the sheer guts of fighter pilots.

[Panzersharkcat]

i wouldnt exactly say "massive fleet bombardment". The Rebel fleet was more or less engaging the rest of the star destroyer fleet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGNFMrLO ... re=related @ 3:16.

The fleet was dispersed. If you click on the earlier videos, you see background segments where the rebel fleet was essentially scattered all over the place, being attacked by ISD themselves. They didnt all attack the executor.

Because taking some time to aim at an eleven-mile-long warship is so hard despite casually slinging around all that firepower at hundreds of kilometers and hitting their targets.

2 A-wing fighters destroyed the right "bridge deflector shield" after Admiral Ackbar ordered them to concentrate all fire on the super star destroyer.
This allowed a damaged A wing to crash right into the bridge, making it go adrift. Starfleet ships may not be as big, but im pretty sure they can take on a super star destroyer. If 3 A- wings helped level the tide of battle, im sure a federation fleet can do the same.

If those pair of balls arent shield generators, well then i dont know what to tell you buddy. dosent change the fact the executor still got pwned by the sheer guts of fighter pilots.

If those were shield generators, you'd think they'd be covered by their own shields sufficiently that it wouldn't take only fighter weapons to break through. And frankly, Starfleet ships would be blown to pieces before they could even get around to pummeling through the shields. An Executor-class vessel has 2000 turbolaser cannons and 2000 heavy turbolaser cannons. I recently had to calculate the firepower for a nerfed Star Destroyer for RP purposes. (It's a NationStates thing.) Using the firepower needed to pull off a BDZ with 25 ISD-1s in 12 hours, I got 274 megatons for light turbolasers and 34 gigatons for the heavy guns.* Pretty sure that's still higher than what Trek ships sling around.

*I should probably have somebody check this to make sure my math is correct. Math and science aren't exactly my strong suits.

[Danny]

if those were shield generators, you'd think they'd be covered by their own shields sufficiently that it wouldn't take only fighter weapons to break through. And frankly, Starfleet ships would be blown to pieces before they could even get around to pummeling through the shields. An Executor-class vessel has 2000 turbolaser cannons and 2000 heavy turbolaser cannons. I recently had to calculate the firepower for a nerfed Star Destroyer for RP purposes. (It's a NationStates thing.) Using the firepower needed to pull off a BDZ with 25 ISD-1s in 12 hours, I got 274 megatons for light turbolasers and 34 gigatons for the heavy guns.* Pretty sure that's still higher than what Trek ships sling around.

*I should probably have somebody check this to make sure my math is correct. Math and science aren't exactly my strong suits.

I have never doubted the sheer power of any star wars cap ship. On their size alone its safe to assume they are incredibly powerful. I recently tried to figure out the yield of a photon torpedo, but many people dont accept the fact the tech manual displays the amount of anti matter contained within each torpedo. Despite the fact paramount themselves have neither confirmed or denied them as canon [ST writers and producers have written them] they still reference them openly. Say for example the ds9 tech manual was 'openly' confirmed as canon, then your standard photon torpedo has 1.5kg of matter, and 1.5kg of anti matter. CERN states 1 gram of anti matter is equivalent to 180 terajoules...which is 3x more powerful than hiroshima. If you were to use mathematics, a standard photon torpedo can generate 60 or so megatons- my mathfu is equally weak. In TNG yesterdays enterprise, a "full spread" is 3 torpedoes, which is equivalent to 180 megatons. If this is true, 16 torpedoes or so is equivalent to 1 gigaton. [note in ST torpedoes have many levels, and different classes to increase efficiency and yield].


Many ST episodes acknowledge a standard ship can wipe out a planet, comparable to an BDZ.

Of course SW has the EU acknowledged as canon [however ridiculous most of their shit is] while ST is beyond fragmented. Its all guestimation. No1 knows the true scientific lethality of an ISD or a ST ship, so its all assumption. People can only make educated guesses on weapons and shields, but not exactly prove it since both universes arent to free with the information. Though no star trek ship can even come close to replicating the awesome lethality of the death star, ST ships are by no means "weak".

[Panzersharkcat]

I have never doubted the sheer power of any star wars cap ship. On their size alone its safe to assume they are incredibly powerful. I recently tried to figure out the yield of a photon torpedo, but many people dont accept the fact the tech manual displays the amount of anti matter contained within each torpedo. Despite the fact paramount themselves have neither confirmed or denied them as canon [ST writers and producers have written them] they still reference them openly. Say for example the ds9 tech manual was 'openly' confirmed as canon, then your standard photon torpedo has 1.5kg of matter, and 1.5kg of anti matter. CERN states 1 gram of anti matter is equivalent to 180 terajoules...which is 3x more powerful than hiroshima. If you were to use mathematics, a standard photon torpedo can generate 60 or so megatons- my mathfu is equally weak. In TNG yesterdays enterprise, a "full spread" is 3 torpedoes, which is equivalent to 180 megatons. If this is true, 16 torpedoes or so is equivalent to 1 gigaton. [note in ST torpedoes have many levels, and different classes to increase efficiency and yield].

It's still not going to total 64 megatons, though, as far as damaging a ship goes. Inefficiencies and all that.

Many ST episodes acknowledge a standard ship can wipe out a planet, comparable to an BDZ.

Blah blah dialogue vs visuals. Can't say anything other than that, though. Still working my way through the first season of TOS.

Of course SW has the EU acknowledged as canon [however ridiculous most of their shit is] while ST is beyond fragmented. Its all guestimation. No1 knows the true scientific lethality of an ISD or a ST ship, so its all assumption. People can only make educated guesses on weapons and shields, but not exactly prove it since both universes arent to free with the information. Though no star trek ship can even come close to replicating the awesome lethality of the death star, ST ships are by no means "weak".

I'm with you on Wars EU hatred. Only relative to something like Wars ships would I say Trek ships are weak. A fleet of Trek ships showing up over modern Earth would give us a good fucking-over and, though I argue phasers are weaker than blasters, I would not care to stand in front of one since they're still fairly powerful weapons.

[StarSword]

@D13: I'm actually not convinced that the big globes are shield generators per se. Seems to me such a vital system would be more intelligently located deep within the ship. Shield projectors on the other hand, that I can definitely believe (satisfies common-sense design principles, but doesn't contradict ROTJ). In this scenario, the shield radiation (or however the shield is supposed to work; gravitons?) is generated inside the ship, then "piped" to a "nozzle" and dispersed over the ship. I see that as somewhat of a compromise position. But that doesn't change the fact that, globes go up, shields go down.

In other words, for once we're actually in agreement on something. (What a concept!)

Blah blah dialogue vs visuals.

I love how the same people who say this about Star Trek will turn around and quote.... a line of dialog for the BDZ thing, or worse yet, a parenthetical from a sourcebook for the per shot firepower.

The difference is, the Star Trek dialogue contradicts the visuals within the exact same episode, frequently within a less than five-minute period. That's why almost everyone categorically rejects the infamous "thirty percent" line in DS9 as inaccurate (for instance). Absolutely, the EU as a whole frequently contradicts itself, but individual works or series are self-consistent.

Star Trek's well-established track record of butchering science, math, and engineering doesn't help. The reason Star Wars doesn't get these criticisms is that they generally don't bother to do the science or math "onscreen", and thus have less opportunity to fuck up and get laughed at.