ST v SW

[Darth Tedious]

All this talk of the Federation's assesment of whatever Imperial ships they meet is ridiculous. Why should the Empire bother using decrepit, downgraded or borrowed ships for First Contact? While the Feds may be able to make some observations on their ships (whatever they are, from shuttles to SSDs), there is no reason they should jump to any particular conclusions.
I'll elaborate:

What moron thinks using heavy capital ships as advance scouts is a good idea?

The UFP aren't far from it. Their flagship is often used for exploration in uncharted areas, and pioneering diplomatic missions, including First Contacts. And if you are using said activities as pre-invasion recon, there should be no difference in what ship you send.
So why should they assume that the Empire has sent scout ships and not capital ships to do the same task?
I am not postulating that the Federation would assume that [whatever ship they met] was a capital ship- it's much more likely that they would assess [said ship] on its own merits, and gather what they can about Imperial tech from the glimpse they get.

Bear in mind, in a Intergalactic Temporal Trans-fictionversal Wormhole Versus Scenario (Patent Pending), the Empire could concievably use ISDs as advance scout ships in the MW.
What Grand Moff in his right mind would say, "No, don't use our bread and butter ships to explore this new galaxy, let's send tramp freighters instead- just in case whoever we meet gets shit scared and goes into Full Fanboy Attack and pwns us with armies of Exocomps riding soliton waves."
And that's not even touching on the ways in which Full Fanboy Mode might not work...

I honestly fail to see why the Federation would leap to any massive conclusions and/or make major strategic/tactical decisions based on the class of the first ship they meet.

If anything, the UFP would probably be more likely to offer a diplomatic surrender if they assessed a conventional war as impossible. Launching a Full Fanboy Offensive against an enemy of largely unknown capabilities is suicidal. If an enemy is so far advantaged in conventional warfare, why would you assume that they can't wipe the floor with you in unconventional warfare?

[Cesario]

Please see the recommendations that the Federation surrender the Domnion war which they were mathamatically predicted to find impossible to win. Note that the Federation looked at the math which was perfectly sound, then decided to keep on fighting anyway.

Note further that unconventional tactics, including ones they never would have considered (biological attack threatening genocide to the primary governing race of an enemy power (a race for whom "biology" is perhaps not the best term), followed by subverting the enemy power from within by formenting rebellion) was what ended up winning them the day.

[Azron_Stoma]

Cesario, that might work fine against the Dominion, but up against the Empire? not so much.

[Stofsk]

Yeah because it's not like the Empire has ever had to deal with a Rebellion or anything right :V

[Darth Tedious]

Please see the recommendations that the Federation surrender the Domnion war which they were mathamatically predicted to find impossible to win. Note that the Federation looked at the math which was perfectly sound, then decided to keep on fighting anyway.

Note further that unconventional tactics, including ones they never would have considered (biological attack threatening genocide to the primary governing race of an enemy power (a race for whom "biology" is perhaps not the best term), followed by subverting the enemy power from within by formenting rebellion) was what ended up winning them the day.

All of which happened after the war startd in earnest (after a period of cold war), and not upon First Contact

Cesario, that might work fine against the Dominion, but up against the Empire? not so much.

And yeah, designing a bioweapon that kills your enemy is fucking GREAT when your enemy is a different species to you.

Yeah because it's not like the Empire has ever had to deal with a Rebellion or anything right :V

The Empire would have gotten away with it too, if it hadn't been for those meddling Ewoks Palpy's overly elaborate plan to replace his sidekick!

But seriously, how much help could the UFP be to the Rebel Scum? If they could get free access through the [assumed] wormhole (which would be tricky if the Empire's set up shop on either side), could they actually make any significant difference?
More succinctly: Could the UFP, by supporting the Rebel Scum, actually cause the Empire to fall before the Battle of Endor? Personally, I'm not seeing it happening this side of some serious Comic Book Tactics...

[Stofsk]

Without going into it too much, my thoughts are the UFP could be of great assistance to the Rebels. A major problem the Rebels had was things like supplies and logistics. Leaving aside any other benefit an alliance would bring, that alone ought to have a huge impact. Think how much a simple food replicator could help out a simple matter of feeding your troops.

Also, transporters. People here have often scoffed at them because people go 'lol in this episode a genie farted and thus we had two Rikers'. But the potential for mass transit of people and supplies can't really be understated. Also, nobody in the GFFA knows a goddamn thing about them so how can they guard against them? I can see transporters being great for infiltration units. And there are other creative uses for them too.

Stuff like that is pretty much ignored by the usual suspects who quote 200 JUGGERTONS and ZOMG WARP SPEED SO SLOOOWW

[the atom]

Without going into it too much, my thoughts are the UFP could be of great assistance to the Rebels. A major problem the Rebels had was things like supplies and logistics. Leaving aside any other benefit an alliance would bring, that alone ought to have a huge impact. Think how much a simple food replicator could help out a simple matter of feeding your troops.

Also, transporters. People here have often scoffed at them because people go 'lol in this episode a genie farted and thus we had two Rikers'. But the potential for mass transit of people and supplies can't really be understated. Also, nobody in the GFFA knows a goddamn thing about them so how can they guard against them? I can see transporters being great for infiltration units. And there are other creative uses for them too.

Stuff like that is pretty much ignored by the usual suspects who quote 200 JUGGERTONS and ZOMG WARP SPEED SO SLOOOWW

They'd have to play their cards pretty damn carefully though. If the Empire found out that the Federation were not only Rebellion sympathizers but also Rebellion suppliers, retribution would be swift and unpleasant. The safest thing to do would probably be to discreetly send them some schematics and maybe a single engineer through a smuggler so they could build them themselves.

OTOH, sending the Rebels replicators and transporters without giving them the schematics could be a good way to barter for ships and weapons in return, although this would be much riskier.

[Darth Tedious]

I would have thought the biggest problem the UFP would face assisting the Rebel Scum would be finding them. The GFFA is a big place, what are the chances of coming across the Massassi Temple or Echo Base? (bleh it's not really that extreme, but...)
If the Feds get to the right worlds, they could get in touch with the Rebellion (Biggs joined up from Tatooine, obviously there's some sort of recruitment going on). If they meet the right people.
And that's if they get to the wormhole first, if the wormhole is in the right area.
And those Alpha Quadrant ships are going to attract a lot of attention...

[Cesario]

Without going into it too much, my thoughts are the UFP could be of great assistance to the Rebels. A major problem the Rebels had was things like supplies and logistics. Leaving aside any other benefit an alliance would bring, that alone ought to have a huge impact. Think how much a simple food replicator could help out a simple matter of feeding your troops.

Also, transporters. People here have often scoffed at them because people go 'lol in this episode a genie farted and thus we had two Rikers'. But the potential for mass transit of people and supplies can't really be understated. Also, nobody in the GFFA knows a goddamn thing about them so how can they guard against them? I can see transporters being great for infiltration units. And there are other creative uses for them too.

Stuff like that is pretty much ignored by the usual suspects who quote 200 JUGGERTONS and ZOMG WARP SPEED SO SLOOOWW

They'd have to play their cards pretty damn carefully though. If the Empire found out that the Federation were not only Rebellion sympathizers but also Rebellion suppliers, retribution would be swift and unpleasant. The safest thing to do would probably be to discreetly send them some schematics and maybe a single engineer through a smuggler so they could build them themselves.

OTOH, sending the Rebels replicators and transporters without giving them the schematics could be a good way to barter for ships and weapons in return, although this would be much riskier.

Why pussy-foot around with an Empire that's already decided to genocide you? It would be one thing if the Empire was posited as being content to live and let live, but when they're already trying to wipe you from the face of creation, why worry about what they'll think of you for supplying their enemies, exactly?

[Darth Tedious]

I must raise the time-old question of why the Empire would decide to genocide the UFP? Besides writer's fiat, of course...

[Stofsk]

Because they're evil, dummy.

[Batman]

I must raise the time-old question of why the Empire would decide to genocide the UFP? Besides writer's fiat, of course...

Interestingly enough, nobody but Cesario has decided the Empire is gonna BDZ the AQ just because, the rest of the posters seem to be content to actually speculate what would happen in a first contact situation.
It does seem there's been a paradigm shift somewhere in this thread as we appear to be back to arguing canon Wars vs Trek when the OP stipulated an Empire roughly technologically on par with the AQ, which kinda nixes most of the technological (if not industrial) advantages of the Wars side.

On transporters, I think they get dismissed because not only can the most trivial of things disrupt them, but we never see them used to their full potential. There's mentions of them beaming lots of people or a fuckton of cargo in one go, but all we ever see them transport is 6 people in PJs (the sole exception that comes immediately to mind being the whales cum surroundings in TVH). Assuming transporters can be made to work on Wars power systems and Wars materials don't block transporters period (for which I so far see absolutely no reason-heavy armour, yes, but general construction materials?) transporter technology offers a lot of interesting options for the Rebellion.

Same goes for Warp drive, by the way. While canon hyperdrive is massively faster, that's actually a drawback in some situations. Remember the microjump problem? Nonissue with Warp. Hyperdrive close to the system, get your formation arranged, and Warp in.
The Rebellion (as opposed to, say, the NR) probably didn't have the resources to equip their ships with a tertiary stardrive but it's definitely something you want to consider before declaring 'Warp is massively slower than hyperdrive therefore fail'.

[the atom]

Also consider that Warp Drives won't be affected by things like interdictor fields, which would give the Rebels a not-insignificant leg up over the Empire.

[Batman]

Also consider that Warp Drives won't be affected by things like interdictor fields, which would give the Rebels a not-insignificant leg up over the Empire.

Which is why the E-D totally wasn't forced out of Warp by the gravity of the Dyson Sphere in 'Relics'. Oh wait.

[bilateralrope]

What about the Federation deciding that, since the Rebellion is a purely internal matter for the Empire, the Prime Directive means they shouldn't get involved ?

[Imperial528]

Wait indeed.... I'm pretty sure Picard ordered them out of warp because they were coming up on the distress signal (from Scotty's ship), not because they hit gravity.

That would be correct. However, as they dropped out of warp the sphere's gravity did cause quite a bit of disruption and instability, IIRC. Whether that occurred just before they left warp, during the drop, or immediately after is unclear, though.

[Batman]

What about the Federation deciding that, since the Rebellion is a purely internal matter for the Empire, the Prime Directive means they shouldn't get involved ?

The Prime Directive is so ill defined and has been broken (or not, depending on the definition) by Enterprise captains so often that I'm not sure it has any value in determining what the Federation would do. really-

[the atom]

Also consider that Warp Drives won't be affected by things like interdictor fields, which would give the Rebels a not-insignificant leg up over the Empire.

Which is why the E-D totally wasn't forced out of Warp by the gravity of the Dyson Sphere in 'Relics'. Oh wait.

Because the field from an interdictor is completely the same thing as an alien sphere that's two hundred million km in diameter....

[Cesario]

Still, in regards to other interstellar powers, the Federation does have a standing policy of not fucking with them one way or the other. Whether that's the Prime Directive or some other rule, they generally aren't comfortable interfearing in internal politics. They'll involve themselves when there's extreme need, especially a threat to their own security, but they'll go to a lot of trouble to avoid anything that would provoke a military response. See pre-Dominion War Cardasia.

What's more likely is the Federation would offer up a nonagression pact on first contact, send diplomats to speak with this new power, and see about establishing diplomacy, trade, and exchange of knowledge. The Empire, if it wasn't run by an evil wizard dedicated to being evil, would jump at the chance to learn about these people, open new trade routes, and get their hands on the nifty new toys that were potentially on the table for any technology exchange.

But because there is an evil wizard at the helm, he's not going to like the idea of his oppressive regime being able to look in at a functioning utopia and start asking why their society can't be like that. The propoganda war will gear up, and everything about this new galaxy will be declared evil, frightening, and unholy. See DW's transporter propoganda for a very good example.

The Emperor will want the Federation wiped out not because it's a military threat. It isn't. Even if the Federation could curb stomp roll over the Empire in five minutes, they wouldn't do so without provocation. The Emperor will want them wiped out because they're a cultural and social threat. The biggest thing ever in either universe. They built a utopia and made it work. It gets overlooked in the measuring of petatons, but it's the real reason I imagine Palpetine would want them destroyed.

[the atom]

Wouldn't simply subverting the Federation from the inside out be far more efficient then a military campaign to conquer half the galaxy?

[Cesario]

Wouldn't simply subverting the Federation from the inside out be far more efficient then a military campaign to conquer half the galaxy?

They don't need to conquor half a galaxy. The Federation isn't that big.

Subverting them from the inside has a much higher chance of failure, and is far more likely to have your spies going native. (Again, it's sending your spies to go live in a litteral utopia to try to destroy it. Even your Dark Side devotees will have trouble with that one.)

[the atom]

They don't need to conquor half a galaxy. The Federation isn't that big.

Once they start butting heads with the other various powers they'll most certainly have to. The Klingon Empire will most certainly join the 'fight' for the Federation thanks to Martok, leaving another massive chunk of the AQ that will have to be systematically beaten down.

If all goes well, the Empire now has the both the former Federation and Klingon territory under it's control and everything is said and done.

If all does not go well, the Borg will find out about their presence and begin sending incursions in an attempt to assimilate the new tech and the Empire will be forced to launch a massive campaign to exterminate them in self-defence. In that case they'll very much have to conquer half the galaxy, if not more.

[Cesario]

Actually, conquiring the Federation is just as undesirable from the evil wizard's prospective as letting it exist as a trading partner. If you conquor it, you get a ton of people infused into your society that know that there's a better way of living, have step-by-step instructions for getting to that point, and can point to examples in living memory of it working.

Better to exterminate the Federation outright than risk the secret spreading.

[the atom]

Actually, conquiring the Federation is just as undesirable from the evil wizard's prospective as letting it exist as a trading partner. If you conquor it, you get a ton of people infused into your society that know that there's a better way of living, have step-by-step instructions for getting to that point, and can point to examples in living memory of it working.

Better to exterminate the Federation outright than risk the secret spreading.

Exterminating the Federation would entail all the problems I mentioned above times 100000. This time it's not just the Klingons jumping in because of diplomatic obligations, it's everybody in the Alpha Quadrant stepping in because everybody is afraid of being next.

Then you still have the issue of the Borg attacking, because at this point they've probably noticed the fact that each and every single notable power in the Alpha Quadrant mysteriously have set aside all squabbles and are now attacking some new and extremely deadly enemy.

[Cesario]

Yes, but again, the only reason to attack the Federation at all is if the evil wizard in charge doesn't want his people to know there's a better way of living. And to stop that idea from spreading, the only option is to kill everyone who could spread that idea.

Or you could posit this all as some big capture the flag game put on by Q, where neither side's actual motivations matter in the slightest, I suppose.