Finally adding to my canon database

[Master of Ossus]

I think it is still more proof that he is an idiot that he would go to such lengths only to attempt to avoid the inevitable by refusing to admit he is wrong. When I have made mistakes and chosen bad positions in these debates, I always say that I am wrong. DarkStar's complete inability to do so demonstrates either that he is delusional (if he seriously does not think he has lost), or that he is a jack ass (for not admitting defeat when he is beaten).

[DarkStar]

2. Do you have OTHER premise rather than "real bullets have not been fired against the Borg" and "drones can interact with the environment" to support your selective KE shield bullshit?

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html

WELL, MORON???

What, did you get impatient that I had not answered your question before you hit "Submit"?

[Coyote]

Well, a bit of misdirection -- or assumption -- has been made as well. In the argument, "Are holographic bullets real?" implies that if they are REAL once the safeties are disengaged, then that means I could pick up a handful of them and carry them off the holodeck and keep them. Forever.

While I ascribe to the 'bullets be real' frame of thought, I will add that the bullets are real only when fired within the confines of the HoloDeck and the safeties are off. Anyone entering the HoloDeck will be in danger, but the bullets lose their basis for reality once they leave the HoloDeck.

It doesn't matter if Picard told Lily that the bullets were "magic", that fact is, the Borg drones DIED, and if the rounds were holos-- and the assimilated Ensign would have known that-- the Drones would have been unharmed. The fact that the Thompson would have been useless outside the HoloDeck explains Picard discarding it afterwards. His comment to Lily is an off-the-cuff remark made in a moment of emotion: remember, when dealing with the Borg, Picard gets emotional and irrational! He did not have the patience to explain to a Yokel the intricacies of the HoloDeck and why they don't manufacture scores of Tommyguns for the crew.

So I think it is safe to assume that, if we are on a HoloDeck and I swing a chair at someone and smack him in the face, he gets a very real black eye, and that black eye will not magically dissipate when my victim leaves the HoloDeck.

But if I take the "holo-chair" outside the Deck and try to whack someone with it, then it will disspiate shortly after I leave the room-- like those two gangster holos did when they walked outside.

Can the replicator make guns & ammo? Probably, but the ST universe being what it is, those replicator programs are probably tightly regulated...

[DarkStar]

Moreover, Worf's personal shield had clear line of sight to the bullet, while Borg drone personal shielding is known to be generated by in-body implants (see "The Raven") which must project defensive shields through solid flesh; not necessarily a good thing if you wish to project a field which repels matter.

Actually, I'm not too sure about your "line-of-sight" comment. As I recall, their were Datas all over the holodeck shooting at Worf, from in front, behind, and to the sides.

And finally, despite all the handwaving, observation really does trump theory. The fact is that we have observed no Borg particle shielding despite numerous incidents where it would have been very useful, and Darkstar's pathetic argument that they selectively shield only against physical attacks other than the ones we've seen is simply laughable, and everyone besides him (including you, hopefully) knows it.

Translation: 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence'.

Sure, it is.

http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.htm

[DarkStar]

I also realise that a momentumless bullett would be easier to stop but Darkstar has his explanation for that but it could easily be that the Borg lagged slightly in adapting (activating KE shields)

Actually, KE shields would probably not affect holographic bullets, since they are forcefield phenomena. It would be one of the energy weapon sort of attacks that the Borg have to adapt to.

[Master of Ossus]

Um, DarkStar, do you know what line of sight means? It is irrelevent that there were Datas shooting at him from the sides and front. The combadge/shield could see them all. There was a straight and unobstructed line between it and the bullets that it was supposed to protect Worf against.

[DarkStar]

DarkStar, just out of curiosity, how specific do you think that Borg adaptation is? In other words, do you think that the Borg can adapt to all .45 caliber weapons after they are hit by one, or do you think that the Borg must adapt seperately for each gun because of the minute imperfections along the barrel of the weapon and how they alter the ballistics of the weapon slightly?

I do not think they would have to adapt to KE. If they did, however, it would not follow that they would have to adapt to particular rounds.

And I STILL have not received any PM's about my offer, DarkStar. I'll have to make sure that everything is alright with my account.

What offer?

[DarkStar]

Um, DarkStar, do you know what line of sight means? It is irrelevent that there were Datas shooting at him from the sides and front. The combadge/shield could see them all. There was a straight and unobstructed line between it and the bullets that it was supposed to protect Worf against.

I mentioned sides and front to point out the 360-degree element. This should have been obvious.

[Master of Ossus]

2. Do you have OTHER premise rather than "real bullets have not been fired against the Borg" and "drones can interact with the environment" to support your selective KE shield bullshit?

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html

[Best Jar Jar imitation] When in trouble, DarkStar goes to sacred place.

[Master of Ossus]

Um, DarkStar, do you know what line of sight means? It is irrelevent that there were Datas shooting at him from the sides and front. The combadge/shield could see them all. There was a straight and unobstructed line between it and the bullets that it was supposed to protect Worf against.

I mentioned sides and front to point out the 360-degree element. This should have been obvious.

It should be obvious that the badge had LOS to all of the Datas.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, just out of curiosity, how specific do you think that Borg adaptation is? In other words, do you think that the Borg can adapt to all .45 caliber weapons after they are hit by one, or do you think that the Borg must adapt seperately for each gun because of the minute imperfections along the barrel of the weapon and how they alter the ballistics of the weapon slightly?

I do not think they would have to adapt to KE. If they did, however, it would not follow that they would have to adapt to particular rounds.

And I STILL have not received any PM's about my offer, DarkStar. I'll have to make sure that everything is alright with my account.

What offer?

1. Are you saying that Worf's little dagger should not have gotten through, because they should not have had to adapt to it? That would appear to be contradictory, because if the Borg had KE shields that did not have to adapt, then the dagger should not have gotten through.
2. If the Borg shields had to adapt to every single projectile round, then they would be totally useless in combat because if it took them even one round to adapt then EVERY round would make it through (every round is slightly different and has slightly different characteristics). This might be the reason why the Borg don't have KE shielded drones. Thanks for making my case for me.

3. I see that you have forgotten my offer. I asked all third parties that felt I had not crushed your arguments, to PM me, you, and Darth Wong. They were to inform me that I had not yet beaten the vast majority of your arguments on the other thread. I would then post more evidence against you and your arguments, but no one seems to have come forward thinking that you were winning. How strange.

[VF5SS]

Cripes you'd think the holodeck gets so much of the E-E's power that its unbeatable The Borg would have shut it down if the useless thing was using a huge amount of power. Don't give me this crap about them not being able to hack into the system. You can physically disconnect the power somewhere! Even if they can block KE just keep pumping rounds into them. Overwhelm the shield. I mean come on, they're cyborgs. There's gotta be a reasonable limit to how much energy they have coming out of those implants. They'd start frying themselves after awhile, no?

[DarkStar]

Around page 15 or 16, IIRC, I got so pissed off at him that I went back and made about a page and a half of basically straight rebuttals of what he was saying. After that, I figured I had won, and so I stopped posting for a while. You can imagine my astonishment when I came back and found that DarkStar had actually tried to defend himself against my attack!

I consider it proper to defend my arguments against erroneous counterarguments. I don't see why you find this astonishing.

After it became clear that he was ignoring many of my rebuttals, especially those I made against his own counter-attacks, I decided to try to repeat my performance again.

I did not choose to ignore any rebuttal. If memory serves, you pointed out one I had actually missed, but most of your claims had already been taken care of in other posts. I was several pages behind and even more outnumbered by Warsies than usual in that thread, so I saw no point in wasting time by repeating myself. After all, you're the one who is always the first to bitch when I am forced to repeat myself.

The problem is, Darkling, that DarkStar is not a rational debater.

You claim this on the basis that I do not agree with you. I do not consider agreement with you to be a requirement of rational debate. My arguments are based on and correspond with the facts and evidence, and logic is the tool with which I view the evidence. When, as often occurs, Warsie arguments do not correspond with the facts or the facts are not viewed in the light of logic, I will not withdraw from my position simply because I am outnumbered or out-insulted.

It was exactly this refusal that eventually forced him to claim that SW and RL humans are not the same.

I am never forced into poking fun at silly Warsie assumptions that are not based on the evidence.

His inability to debate in a reasonable and responsible manner makes him invincible to standard debating tactics and evidence.

I do not consider it reasonable to abandon a rational point simply because someone disagrees. I need proof that an argument is flawed, not Warsie whining that it is so.

[Master of Ossus]

It was exactly this refusal that eventually forced him to claim that SW and RL humans are not the same.

I am never forced into poking fun at silly Warsie assumptions that are not based on the evidence.

OMFG, DarkStar, do you still think that it is an unreasonable assumption to believe that humans in SW are anatomically the same as humans from ST and reality (with which you appear to have little connection)?

[DarkStar]

I seriously cannot (swear to God) understand why people like DarkStar cannot ever admit that they're wrong.

When it is demonstrated that I am in error, I apologize and move on. If you believe this isn't true, perhaps it is because you feel I have been demonstrated to be in error more often than I actually have.

[DarkStar]

It doesn't matter if Picard told Lily that the bullets were "magic", that fact is, the Borg drones DIED, and if the rounds were holos-- and the assimilated Ensign would have known that-- the Drones would have been unharmed.

Um . . . I think you're confusing this with "Spectre of the Gun". Holographic objects in the holodeck can be touched, because they have forcefields backing them up and giving them the feeling of solidity. With the safeties off, it wouldn't matter if the ensign knew they were holograms or not . . . he would still die.

[Darth Wong]

Actually, I'm not too sure about your "line-of-sight" comment. As I recall, their were Datas all over the holodeck shooting at Worf, from in front, behind, and to the sides.

More of your usual lies. There were no Datas behind Worf. All of them were in his forward arc, therefore all of them were in a LOS from his badge.

And finally, despite all the handwaving, observation really does trump theory. The fact is that we have observed no Borg particle shielding despite numerous incidents where it would have been very useful, and Darkstar's pathetic argument that they selectively shield only against physical attacks other than the ones we've seen is simply laughable, and everyone besides him (including you, hopefully) knows it.

Translation: 'absence of evidence is evidence of absence'.
Sure, it is.
http://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/ig.htm

Wrong, dumb-ass. You are as stupid as you are ignorant. Absence of evidence is not absolute proof of absence, but it is evidence of absence. There is a huge difference between "absolute proof" and "evidence". It is a ridiculous strawman to say that we think the lack of evidence represents absolute proof, when all we are saying is that the burden of proof falls upon you to support your theory with observations, and so far, you have failed to deliver.

Your simple-minded misinterpretation of the Appeal to Ignorance fallacy is precisely identical to the argument moronic fundies use to claim that a supreme being is a reasonable hypothesis. Well, guess what: the existence of any phenomenon cannot be assumed without supporting evidence. A lack of evidence means that there is no reason to believe the phenomenon exists. Get it?

I see you're obviously one of those anti-scientific idiots who gleefully quotes passages out of quantum physics texts in order to sound authoritative, but hasn't the slightest clue how to think scientifically. And you wonder why everyone calls you DumbStar.

[DarkStar]

http://ocean.otr.usm.edu/~randers2/STSWBorgKE.html

[Best Jar Jar imitation] When in trouble, DarkStar goes to sacred place.

Just putting everything in one spot, so I don't have to keep repeating myself.

[DarkStar]

It should be obvious that the badge had LOS to all of the Datas.

Screen-shot?

[DarkStar]

1. Are you saying that Worf's little dagger should not have gotten through, because they should not have had to adapt to it? That would appear to be contradictory, because if the Borg had KE shields that did not have to adapt, then the dagger should not have gotten through.

No, Ossus, I am not saying that at all, and have specifically stated that is not the case. You have once again demonstrated an utter lack of reading comprehension.

2. If the Borg shields had to adapt to every single projectile round, then they would be totally useless in combat because if it took them even one round to adapt then EVERY round would make it through (every round is slightly different and has slightly different characteristics). This might be the reason why the Borg don't have KE shielded drones. Thanks for making my case for me.

You have no idea what you're talking about. A phaser beam has frequencies and modulations and such. You hit the right frequency band, you can get through . . . then the Borg adapt. You change frequencies to one you've used before, and they're still adapted to it. If you shift frequencies all over the spectrum, you might sneak things in . . . the Borg apparently aren't adapted to all weapons all the time. It would be inefficient. But, they can figure out the pattern of the shifting, and adapt to that. Borg shields are quite specialized.

A bullet, on the other hand, has no frequency to adapt to. It's a solid object flung at high speed. There is no reason bullet shape should be relevant.

3. I see that you have forgotten my offer. I asked all third parties that felt I had not crushed your arguments, to PM me, you, and Darth Wong. They were to inform me that I had not yet beaten the vast majority of your arguments on the other thread. I would then post more evidence against you and your arguments, but no one seems to have come forward thinking that you were winning. How strange.

Whooptee-doo. I see you still think it is important to have disciples (or, more properly in your case, to be a disciple). I'm really quite sorry, but the fact is that it is irrelevant whether anyone agrees or disagrees with an argument. The truth value of that argument is not affected.

Further, I find it amusing that you seem to feel you are going for a fair, unbiased poll. First, you threatened whoever PMed you with support for me with "Village Idiocy" and so on. Second, you're preaching to your own choir. Are there any other constantly vocal pro-Trek debaters here?

[Master of Ossus]

BULLETS VIBRATE, MORON! Haven't you ever heard of a floating barrel and what it's used for? Besides, I specifically asked you how specific the Borg adaptations were, and then you said that the Borg would have to adapt to every shot. That would make sense, because each bullet is slightly different, follows a slightly different path, and vibrates slightly differently from the one fired immediately before it.

[Master of Ossus]

DarkStar, just out of curiosity, how specific do you think that Borg adaptation is? In other words, do you think that the Borg can adapt to all .45 caliber weapons after they are hit by one, or do you think that the Borg must adapt seperately for each gun because of the minute imperfections along the barrel of the weapon and how they alter the ballistics of the weapon slightly?

I do not think they would have to adapt to KE.

Okay, people, there's what DarkStar said. If he doesn't think that the Borg would have to adapt to KE, then how the hell did Worf's dagger get through their "shields?"

[TheDarkling]

I do not think they would have to adapt to KE. If they did, however, it would not follow that they would have to adapt to particular rounds.

He says he doesnt think each round would require adapting to or his they wouldnt have to adpat to KE I think he means levels of KE or possibly we havent seen where they need to adapt to shield from KE not that they would just be immune from it.

I may be wrong however.

[TheDarkling]

Hmm its late that didnt even make sense to me.

I read it as either "we dont see a situation where they need to adapt KE" or as "They wouldnt have to adpat to varying degrees of KE" not as "The Borg Ownz KE", a bit more clarity would seem to be in order.

[Master of Ossus]

Hmm its late that didnt even make sense to me.

I read it as either "we dont see a situation where they need to adapt KE" or as "They wouldnt have to adpat to varying degrees of KE" not as "The Borg Ownz KE", a bit more clarity would seem to be in order.

The thing with the first one (the "We don't see a situation where they need to adapt to KE") is, we haven't seen any evidence that they CAN adapt to KE, or that they have done so in the past. In fact, we have never seen them stop any KE related weapons with shields. Also, we have seen situations where it would have been helpful for them to adapt to KE, they just never have. For instance, when a Borg ship explodes, we should see some drones escape the blast because of KE shielding if they have adapted to KE weapons. They can survive in vacuum (ref. ST:FC), so some of them should be salvageable.

And if "The Borg Ownz KE," then why didn't Worf's dagger get stopped, even if the holodeck's bullets aren't real?