Transporter Reliability Myths

[SirNitram]

Mr Bean: Ok then another question if a Cap ships shields block all subspace (at least that level) does that mean subspace sensors are deactivated aswell meaning that EM sensors are employed?

When deflector shields are up, most likely. I would not be surprised if they had to lower shields to activate long-range scanners. Of course, this offers the benefit that while shields are up, subspace based sensors can't scan the ship either. Double edged sword, like much of SW tech.

[SirNitram]

LMSx: Those ships were in the asteroid field so it couldnt have been subspace unless their shields were down(not at full power).

A point occours to me. Could Vader have been using Subspace transmissions to his whole fleet in that sequence, ordering his flanking ships to temporarily drop shields to communicate with him? This would explain why normally-powerful shields failed to defend against the big rock, because they simply weren't on.

[TheDarkling]

One thing I dont understand - if they use EM scanners during combat and there ships operate on electronics, then the jammers would also be em meaning that the jamming should cause problems with the electrics on board the ship.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: that occured to me aswell however it would be unbelievable foolish - sacrificing ships just for holo comms? its insane.

Another problem with this theory is that Vader contacts his ground forces on Hoth in the same way, unless planetary shields dont block everything, any info on this?

[SirNitram]

One thing I dont understand - if they use EM scanners during combat and there ships operate on electronics, then the jammers would also be em meaning that the jamming should cause problems with the electrics on board the ship.

EM jamming(The type we use RL) doesn't cause that many problems on it's own ship. Ref: Aegis Cruiser.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: that occured to me aswell however it would be unbelievable foolish - sacrificing ships just for holo comms? its insane.

Another problem with this theory is that Vader contacts his ground forces on Hoth in the same way, unless planetary shields dont block everything, any info on this?

Come on, man. This is Vader. The man is more cavalier about sacrificing his own men than Stalin. He probably also demonstrated traditional Imperial overconfidence: His gunners would peg any dangerous asteroids.

To complicate that scene, the Captain he's talking to does not, as we would expect, die horribly and implode before vanishing. He looks up in shock and horror. This is very strange.

As for Hoth, it would most likely be an EM transmission since they were close to the planet.

[TheDarkling]

Yeah but I was thinking about the jamming being much more powerful as evidenced by the space bending however I guess the Imps may have shielded individual tech to prevent this.

[TheDarkling]

SirNitram: Well in that case the theory seems to fit and it would also explain why the shields couldnt take the asteroids.

The "aw hell" look was probably his gunner telling him they had missed the target - however this would indicate imp PD TLs cant fire near the bridge (makes sense you dont want your own fire hitting the bridge) this would seem to be a weakness in PD coverage.

[SirNitram]

SirNitram: Well in that case the theory seems to fit and it would also explain why the shields couldnt take the asteroids.

The "aw hell" look was probably his gunner telling him they had missed the target - however this would indicate imp PD TLs cant fire near the bridge (makes sense you dont want your own fire hitting the bridge) this would seem to be a weakness in PD coverage.

This is a definate weakness, but didn't the scene with the Captain occour after we see the asteroid toast the ISD bridge tower?

I have no copy of ESB, so I must ask another to check this.

[TheDarkling]

I will check, give me a minute.

[TheDarkling]

We see the ship get hit and cut to the Captain on the Holo communicator who looks surprised then dies.

It implies that both incidents are concurrent.

Well I guess im going to watch the rest of TESB.

[arctic_series]

We see the ship get hit and cut to the Captain on the Holo communicator who looks surprised then dies.

It implies that both incidents are concurrent.

Well I guess im going to watch the rest of TESB.

only that the fact there was never a model of a star destroyer with the bridge blown off kind of totally shuts you down.

how is it that if there was no damaged bridge model of a star destroyer, can they possibly have blown up the bridge back in TESB ? and let's not forget CGI didn't really come into play in that scene, so what does that mean ? the asteroid never vapourised the bridge. ok ?

[TheDarkling]

Actually the book asserts that the entire ship went after the bridge was destroyed.

[Antediluvian]

Antediluvian: Yes It (the DS9 first episode ) was before the episode in question (Bloodlines which is the episode the quote comes from) and yes the feds could track it in The High Ground.

So you are incorrect but also correct.

That being said im not sure the Imps could because there scanners arent science designed - Ref SD.net

However even if they could it doesnt negate the tech.

Im not even sure that Subspace sensors are still in use - they are ancient after all.

Well, you kept saying subtran ep, so you should have been more clear about which ep you were referring to. In any case, subspace transporters were introduced before DS9 aired.

But the Feds don't seem to use them anyway, so it's sort of irrelavant.

And I know this has been mentioned, but the ambient radiation and thick armor would make scanning rather difficult, and essentially making any transporter useless because of that.

Can't scan, shouldn't send, you know?

Being somewhat blind in transporting down to a planet is a little different than trying to beam onto a moving starship, obviously.

And sending bombs is the same way.

A captain would be better off trying to get a lock before sending something like that.

[Antediluvian]

And I think the ability to track them would negate subspace transporters to some degree, at least.

[Antediluvian]

There are also the facts that subspace transport is unreliable, uses a lot of energy, and to even transport matter through it, it has to be put into a very unstable state. (ref Bloodlines.)

Sounds a little too dangerous to use, especially for transporting explosives.

[SPOOFE]

SPOOFE:ST Subspace comms jamming cant stop subtrans - I have already shown this, thus comms and subtrans work differently in how they react to jamming.

You have not "shown" this. You have simply asserted it, with no explanation or evidence whatsoever.

To counter, I assert that there is no significant difference between sending a subspace transporter signal and sending a subspace communication signal... after all, both are forms of communication (it's just that the former needs to send MORE information). Since the two forms of communication differ only in volume, we can conclude that the more fragile data stream would be the easiest to disrupt (like a house of cards).

Ergo, we can conclude that subtrans would be EASIER to jam than a relatively simple comm transmission.

[TheDarkling]

SPOOFE:
A starfleet shield blocks subspace like a SW ship - thats why they need the Frequency window - Subtrans bypasses physical shields meaning it is unaffected by the smae things that affact sensors and comms.

We also have the fact that Subspace comms jamming is know yet Geordi says he doesnt think anything will work thus Subspace comms jamming would not affect a subtrans signal, or else they would have tried it.

The subtrans isnt affected by the same sorts of things that normally block subspace comms and subspace sensors thus there must be smoething diofferent in its operation - disregard my theory that is based on this evidence if you want but you cant ignore the evidence.

Now since we know that what stops subspace comms nd sensors wont affect Subtrans it seems like to block subtrans siome specialised deffence would be needed against it, now since SW shields block ciomms/sensors in the same way as Fed ships we assume they work the same (SW dont have the freq window and thuis loose longrange equipment) therefore the shields or jammers wont affect the subtrans because there is shown to be no correlation between subspace comms or subspace sensors.

Now my theory is supported by this evidence and I think is reasonable but if you dont like it you are welcome to ignore the theory just dont ignore the above facts.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

SPOOFE:
A starfleet shield blocks subspace like a SW ship - thats why they need the Frequency window - Subtrans bypasses physical shields meaning it is unaffected by the smae things that affact sensors and comms.

No proof they block subspace.

We also have the fact that Subspace comms jamming is know yet Geordi says he doesnt think anything will work thus Subspace comms jamming would not affect a subtrans signal, or else they would have tried it.

Or maybe the Enterprise can't Jam. You haven't shown it can.

[TheDarkling]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Yes there is evidence they block subspace sensors, thats the reason the freq window exists - I think the Ref The Wounded.

Be back later.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

Grand Admiral Thrawn: Yes there is evidence they block subspace sensors, thats the reason the freq window exists - I think the Ref The Wounded.

Be back later.

Quote please.

[SirNitram]

There is no Canon explanation for the frequency 'window' that exists in Trek. It is known, however, that they can scan a ship without having it's frequency, so the shields can't block subspace.

More likely, it revolves around their weaponry. If there's a specific frequency 'hole' in their shields, their weaponry, matching the frequency and inverting the phase angle, will pass through it. This would fit the fact Trek ships can't mimic Wars ships in opening shield holes for weapons fire to emerge.

The above is speculation, but I find it fits the facts better than a sensor guess. Shields aren't stated to have any effects on subspace in Trek.

[TheDarkling]

The Wounded:

O'Brien Beams past a starfleet vessels shields in between sensors cycles.

"The pheonix is using a high energy sensor system that cycles ever 5.5 minutes between cycles theres a gap of a 1/50th of a second - I can get through."

Now for high powered I think he means active sensors but you are about to tell me that he means they use some very odd sensors that cause this however this being astandard is backed up by the Tech manual (I know this isnt canon but it backs up the interpretation).

The tech manual also says this "The idea of frequency windows in shields used for sensor scans was the Basis of O'Briens trick in the Wounded".

Now I know it isnt canon but it explains whats going on.

In the same episode Data tells us that a high powered subspace field can block snesors - yet another thing that the E-D could of tried against the Subtrans but Geordi dismissed.

Thats besides shields and comms jamming.

This shows that the Subtrans operates differently than the subspace sensors and subspace comms.

Geordi knows of nothing that could stop the Subtrans yet he knows of ways to block sensors and comms thus they arent the same.

[Grand Admiral Thrawn]

The Wounded:

O'Brien Beams past a starfleet vessels shields in between sensors cycles.

"The pheonix is using a high energy sensor system that cycles ever 5.5 minutes between cycles theres a gap of a 1/50th of a second - I can get through."

Now for high powered I think he means active sensors but you are about to tell me that he means they use some very odd sensors that cause this however this being astandard is backed up by the Tech manual (I know this isnt canon but it backs up the interpretation).

The tech manual also says this "The idea of frequency windows in shields used for sensor scans was the Basis of O'Briens trick in the Wounded".

Conceeded.

Now I know it isnt canon but it explains whats going on.

In the same episode Data tells us that a high powered subspace field can block snesors - yet another thing that the E-D could of tried against the Subtrans but Geordi dismissed.

Thats besides shields and comms jamming.

This shows that the Subtrans operates differently than the subspace sensors and subspace comms.

Geordi knows of nothing that could stop the Subtrans yet he knows of ways to block sensors and comms thus they arent the same.

Or maybe they can't generate powerful sub fields or jamming.

[Master of Ossus]

SirNitram: that occured to me aswell however it would be unbelievable foolish - sacrificing ships just for holo comms? its insane.

Another problem with this theory is that Vader contacts his ground forces on Hoth in the same way, unless planetary shields dont block everything, any info on this?

Come on, man. This is Vader. The man is more cavalier about sacrificing his own men than Stalin. He probably also demonstrated traditional Imperial overconfidence: His gunners would peg any dangerous asteroids.

To complicate that scene, the Captain he's talking to does not, as we would expect, die horribly and implode before vanishing. He looks up in shock and horror. This is very strange.

As for Hoth, it would most likely be an EM transmission since they were close to the planet.

Are we still talking about this topic? After my server crashed I assumed that I was out of it for the rest of the debate. Anyway, Vader didn't even care that his star destroyer had taken damage. He never even asked whether or not the ship had been destroyed. He knew, as the Emperor did, that Luke would be a threat to them (ref. RotJ). He probably felt that eliminating that threat was more important to the Empire than his task force.

Darkling, I also concede the point about shield cycles (though I wasn't reading when it was started), but I DID want to know which book stated that the entire ship was destroyed. I have every SW book except for Galaxy of Fear, and I don't remember reading that. I just need the book title (not page #'s or anything) so I can re-read that one. Maybe I'm not remembering clearly.