Yuuzhun Vong vs. Star Trek

[takemeout_totheblack]

Picard, do you have any proof that Trek uses UD-D? Any quotes from anywhere, any visual evidence? Anything? And don't just point us to your blog again, that's like some christ-fundy pointing to the bible everytime they get pecker slapped with actual science and evidence! Provide some proof or we will continue to heap scorn and ridicule upon you until you revert to your troll instincts and start shrieking f****t over and over so you can get banned, this has happened to nearly every single trektroll who has sauntered in here! That or you'll get the attention of some of the forum big boys, either way it will be a spectacle!

[Serafina]

He's been presenting evidence this whole thread... nothing particularly solid, but going on like he's presented nothing is just wrong.

Actually, he has presented ZERO evidence that Trek uses "super-deuterium". There is not a single piece of evidence for it in Trek.
If his calculations were even remotely right, then that would be a reasonable assumption that they use it. However, his calculations are generally absolute bullshit, and at least once he is using circular logic (calculating torpedo firepower based on the assumption of "super-deuterium").

[Imperial528]

He's been presenting evidence this whole thread... nothing particularly solid, but going on like he's presented nothing is just wrong.

It hasn't helped his argument that he either lacks the confidence to or is just too lazy to post what is on his blog here for all to see, and he rarely tells people where to look on his blog when he points them to it.

[Picard]

You're wrong in two ways: first gigatons aren't enough to destroy life on an entire planet. Takes a lot more.

Second, as I understood it, the only living things on the planet were in the asylum. I figured blasting through the force field would overload the shield generator or something and blow up the asylum, hence killing everything there.

McCoy's statement was not specific to that planet. It was:
"How could we be powerful enough to destroy a planet and still be so helpless".

My gigaton-range estimate is based on this:

"This is the commander of the U.S.S. Enterprise. All cities and installations on Eminiar 7 have been located, identified, and fed into our fire control system. In 1 hour and 45 minutes, the entire inhabited surface of your planet will be destroyed. You have that long to surrender your hostages."

Here is picture of Eminiar VII:
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_10H8_Gaw0N0/T ... stered.jpg

Didn't you read the "according to your bullshit-calculations"-bit? Because sensible calculations put them into KT or maybe low MT-range.

Yes, sensible calculations... of low-end examples.

Moron - you do not even understand the meaning of the word "contradiction". It's a contradiction when the movie says "there is no planetary shield". None of the movies does that. Given that the novelizations are still G-canon, you have to deal with it, wanker.

And I accepted Ednor shield; but Alderaan shield is contradicted by effects of turbolaser shot in new version of ANH.

You are taking a single line about "long range" and interpret it as "at the upper limit of range", even tough long range doesn't have to mean anything of that kind. It can be a purely subjective statement, or it can simply refer to something else than short range.

And short range would be? Either way, SW capital ships cannot engage targets farther away than few hundred to few thousand kilometers, due to observed speeds of HTL bolts.

You think modern aircraft carriers can be heavily damaged by a single missile, and that the armor is only supposed to protect against "natural hazards"? Then why don't we see armor plating on ocean cruisers?
Truly, truly, you are utterly ignorant.

And you are truly insane. Yes, carrier can be heavily damaged by single anti-ship missile. And there won't be just one.

"Armor: 2.5 in (64 mm) kevlar over vital spaces[2] "

It relies on active defences - CIWS, anti-ballistic missiles etc. Modern warships have construction of hull which is not made to entirely stop, but limit damage to certain areas.

They were pretty damn close to being used a couple of times. That's because no one is holding back anymore when the shit already went up. But hey, we can't expect some idiot to grasp anything about real life, now can we?

Close to. Federation in ST came close to exterminating life on several planets, but never actually did it.

Actually, he has presented ZERO evidence that Trek uses "super-deuterium". There is not a single piece of evidence for it in Trek.
If his calculations were even remotely right, then that would be a reasonable assumption that they use it. However, his calculations are generally absolute bullshit, and at least once he is using circular logic (calculating torpedo firepower based on the assumption of "super-deuterium").

My calculations in that regards are right. And no, I'm not using circular logic, I'm using mathematics. Assumption of "super deuterium" comes from warp core and variable yields, which mean that reactants are loaded in torpedo just before firing - and since they have large quantities of reactants on-hand as ship's fuel, why they would not use it in torpedoes, particularly given how effective it could be? Now, dream on.

http://picard578.blogspot.com/2010/08/f ... -core.html

[Picard]

If his calculations were even remotely right, then that would be a reasonable assumption that they use it.

That's not an assumption. An assumption is something you start with; it goes on the left hand side of the "if".

Picard has presented a theory, a conclusion on the right hand side of the 'if', built up on examples on the left hand side.

Those examples are evidence for the theory.

Summarizing his position:

Observations

• Trek firepower is extremely high
• Trek power plants are said to be matter/antimatter reactions
• Trek ships and torpedoes are only so big with a volume of Y m^3

Calculations

• Such firepower would require burning through X tonnes of antimatter to perform
• 2H is insufficiently dense to provide X tonnes in a volume of Y m^3

Conclusion: Star Trek power plants must use something more dense than regular 2H, but is still said to be deuterium. Therefore, they must be using some kind of super dense deuterium.


The weak link there is observation #1. He's been providing evidence, but it is all pretty poor. Demanding direct proof is missing the point: it's a theory.

Pretty good summary.
EDIT: Also, there is one more thing from my blog:

"

Here we see Data sitting on warp core. Brent Spiner, who plays Data, is 1.778 meters tall. Eyeball estimate of warp core diameter gives us around 90 centimeters in diameter; however, part containing fuel is more like 54 cm in diameter. Matter-antimatter reaction seems to go in pulses, 1 pulse per second, with pulse length of around 100 centimeters for volume of 0.229022 cubic meters. Given that 2 pulses react with each other, that volume is 0.458044 cubic meters.

If we take deuterium/antideuterium, that is total reactant mass of 0.08 kg per second or 59 545 720 kilograms of ultra-dense deuterium and its antimatter equivalent per second.

So we can calculate standard energy output of 7.2 x 10e15 watts or 7.2 PW for standard deuterium or 5.36 x 10e24 W (5 360 000 000 PW) for super-dense deuterium. However, one must note that "standard output" is output during normal subligh operations, i.e. warp drive disengaged, weaponry is not used etc. Maximum output might be as much as ten times greater.

Episode evidence

In "True Q"[TNG6], we hear the following exchange occur in Engineering:
Amanda: "It's hard to imagine how much energy is being harnessed in there."

Data : "Imagination is not necessary; the scale is readily quantifiable. We are presently generating 12.75 billion gigawatts per . . . "

One must understand that gigawatts per anything is actually gigawatts per anything. "Anything" here can stand for volume etc (it can't for mass beacouse, since it is M/AM reaction, energy gained from mass is always E=mc^2).

12.75 billion GW is 1.275 x 10e19 joules per second, which translates into 141.86 kilograms of fuel annihilated. Ultra-dense deuterium has density of 140 kilograms per cubic centimeter. Coincidence? I don't think so.

With that, we can calculate total output of E-D warp core to be 5.84 x 10e24 W or 5.84x10e12 TW (5 840 000 000 000 TW or 5 840 000 000 PW)."

As I remember, ship was flying at impulse.

[Bottlestein]

@ Dst..XII: How did we go from matter/antimatter to "deuterium" ?

Also, what does "super-dense" deuterium mean? You do realize that the isotope can exist as a gas ?

[Picard]

That doesn't say what the per shot energy would be. It could be anything. It does, however, point to a total amount that the Enterprise could dish out being in the gigaton ballpark. Or it could be much more; it's inconclusive.

True, but as I pointed out, it is unlikely that phasers will account for much more destruction than torpedoes. And ships carry finite amount of torpedoes. Plus, I based that calculation on 250-torpedo number that Enterprise-D carried. I would not expect Connie to carry much more than that number, and probably much less, given that it is around 25 times smaller in volume (I don't remember where I found that value). As for more - yes, it could be, but that was low-end calculation.

Also, what does "super-dense" deuterium mean? You do realize that the isotope can exist as a gas

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/20 ... 181356.htm

It is only substance I could find that agrees with canon.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_core

It was not hard, given that we already know they use deuterium (check link above) - that left only two possible answers. Ordinary (which is not answer due to being totally contrary to canon statement) and super-dense deuterium, which fits with canon.

[SeaTrooper]

In "Apocalypse Now", the Klingon planet had a grid covering an entire asteroid field, protecting their world within.

Their job was to catch anyone trying to sneak into weapons or transporter range, and then the shitload of ships and orbital weapons would deal with it. It seems to have worked well - Sisko didn't even consider trying anyway.

Ah, a fixed system makes sense. Especially when covering a limited area with known routes through it.

[Bottlestein]

@ DSTR...XII: Ah, I see. The link "Picard" supplies confirms the hypothesis I'm dealing with an imbecile (maybe 2, but we'll see shortly ) .

Gas: obeys the ideal gas law - density is meaningless when something does not have intermolecular forces. One calculates the volume and the temperature, and automatically gets pressure, since Boltzmann's constant is "constant" for all pure and mixed substances.

He may mean "high pressure" diatomic deuterium, but he assumes - judging by his link - it is a solid.

Now, this is the fun part : fusion and matter/anitmatter reactions are 2 distinct process with completely differing physics. The Hoffberg ("ultra super dense" etc) sample is for fusion driven by Sisyphus cooling of reactants using a laser. In this case density is good since slow neutron cross section goes up with density.

Matter/antimatter requires the right types of particles to hit - i.e. electrons hit positrons etc. Now note, for this - high density will be hugely inefficient. You could end up with a lot of useless reactions as electrons enter bound states around antiprotons etc.

In fact, a solid or liquid is the last thing you want for matter/antimatter...

Now, try running the "assumptions" again...

[Bottlestein]

Damn - past EDIT window:

I'm not too familiar with Star Trek, so I may have given you an unecessarily hard time DST XIII - my question is this: Did Picard generate the deuterium/anti deuterium idea, or is that exactly how the generators work in Star Trek?

[Picard]

Maybe not full 5 years, as we see from Voyager that Bussard collectors can be used to refuel starship.

@Bottlestein Warp core works by annihilating matter and antimatter. I already gave this link and I'll give it again, you have all details there:
http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Warp_core

[Batman]

A pity MA isn't a canon source. That Warp cores work via M/AM isn't contested. Them using deuterium/anti-deuterium is. I note a complete and utter lack of episodes mentioning anti-deuterium in the relevant MA article.
I'm working from memory here but I can't recall a single mention of deuterium WRT a Warp core, and I'm not sure they mentioned deuterium WRT fusion reactors prior to DS9 (the deuterium 'slush' is from the TNG TM, as is the anti-deuterium).
Not that I see what difference it would make (and just for the record, I see no problem with them using deuterium/anti-deuterium for the Warp Core, and as they apparently can, if need be, replenish their fuel reserves via the Bussard collectors, it pretty much has to be some iteration of hydrogen or other, but leaving alone the problems Bottlestein pointed out (which I'm taking on faith, that stuff is way over my head) there's exactly zero evidence for them using superdense fuels.

[Stofsk]

The TM may or may not be official canon, but it was a guide many of the writers used, so a lot of the stuff in there was worked into episodes anyway, though maybe not spoon fed to you.

Just to provide a little bit more information: the TNG Tech Manual was written by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, and they actually worked on the shows. Sternbach also co-wrote the DS9 Tech Manual.

The whole 'is it canon/is it not' aspect is irritating. We're not talking about some quasi-fanfic book that somehow gets published. These guys were responsible for the look and feel of the show and they put a lot of effort into it.

[Batman]

A pity MA isn't a canon source. That Warp cores work via M/AM isn't contested. Them using deuterium/anti-deuterium is. I note a complete and utter lack of episodes mentioning anti-deuterium in the relevant MA article.

Anti-deuterium seems to be the logical choice for annhilation...

Absolutely.

I'm working from memory here but I can't recall a single mention of deuterium WRT a Warp core, and I'm not sure they mentioned deuterium WRT fusion reactors prior to DS9

SNIPPY DS9 quotes
As I said, I know DS9's fusion reactors used deuterium.

tng-120.txt-
tng-120.txt- DATA
tng-120.txt- I am detecting high levels of
tng-120.txt: Deuterium gas. Probably coming
tng-120.txt- from the leakage in the drive
tng-120.txt- system.

And if the drive system in question was the Warp drive, yes, that would be a pretty good indicator it uses deuterium (and, by extension, anti-deuterium) as reactant. Was it? (This is an honest question. I'm not saying it wasn't, but from the quotes alone we don't know it was, it might have been the impulse drive).

tng-319.txt-
tng-319.txt- BEVERLY
tng-319.txt- Watching some technician fill
tng-319.txt: deuterium tanks is not my idea
tng-319.txt- of fun.
tng-319.txt-
tng-319.txt- It doesn't sound like much fun to Picard either.
Binary file tng-409.txt matches

No mention of them using deuterium as fuel for the Warp Core, just that they do use deuterium for fuel. Never contested. DS9 explicitly say they use it for fusion reactors.

tng-425.txt-
tng-425.txt- PICARD
tng-425.txt- Belay that, Number One! I'm
tng-425.txt: re-routing the secondary deuterium
tng-425.txt- supply... switching to manual
tng-425.txt- controls.

And if that was regarding the Warp Core, that would indeed be evidence they use deuterium (and again, by extension, anti-deuterium) for fuel. Was it?

tng-604.txt- SCOTT'S VOICE
tng-604.txt: Shunt the deuterium from the main
tng-604.txt- cryo pump to the auxiliary tank.

Deuterium as fuel. Possibly indicates frozen deuterium. No mention of the Warp Core.

tng-604.txt- GEORDI'S VOICE
tng-610.txt- JELLICO
tng-610.txt- (off panel)
tng-610.txt- I want you to increase the flow to
tng-610.txt: the deuterium fuel loader by a
tng-610.txt- third... we may need the extra
tng-610.txt- capacity.

No direct reference to the Warp Core. Again, I'm NOT saying those are NOT in reference to the Warp core, but nothing in those quotes says they are.

--
tng-706.txt-
tng-706.txt- GEORDI
tng-706.txt- Well. Ah... why don't you go help
tng-706.txt: Farrel check the deuterium
tng-706.txt- cartridges. We're about to bring
tng-706.txt- the warp core on-line.
tng-706.txt- Data and Geordi move to different consoles.
tng-706.txt-
tng-706.txt- GEORDI
tng-706.txt: Initializing deuterium infusion
tng-706.txt- sequence...
tng-706.txt-
tng-706.txt- Geordi hits a command and the warp core COMES TO LIFE

Strongly implies they use deuterium, but again, not completely incontroversial evidence.Though it'd take a lot of going to show that doesn't pretty much mean theu use deuterium for their matter component (and thus, anti-deuterium for the AM one).

tng-ff3.txt- LA FORGE'S COM VOICE
tng-ff3.txt- Engineering to Bridge. We're
tng-ff3.txt: burning deuterium down here...

Without specifically mentioning the Warp Core.

That's 18 episodes and one movie that mention deuterium. I gave three lines of before and after context there for you. You'll see several of them, even with this small amount of context, also mention the warp core.

Without ever explicitly saying that the deuterium is used for fuel. As I said, it is heavily implied, and there is absolutely no problem with it (given that they absolutely use deuterium for their fusion reactors them using it for their Warp reactors makes perfect sense), but there is no direct evidence they do.

(the deuterium 'slush' is from the TNG TM, as is the anti-deuterium).

Note Scotty's quote above from Relics (tng-604). "Cryo pump" in reference to it.

Which says there is a cryo-pump, nothing more.

The TM may or may not be official canon

It isn't. This has been done to death.

, but it was a guide many of the writers used, so a lot of the stuff in there was worked into episodes anyway, though maybe not spoon fed to you.

And if and when the writers used it, it is part of the aired episodes and therefore canon. That doesn't make the TM any more relevant.

[Batman]

The TM may or may not be official canon, but it was a guide many of the writers used, so a lot of the stuff in there was worked into episodes anyway, though maybe not spoon fed to you.

Just to provide a little bit more information: the TNG Tech Manual was written by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, and they actually worked on the shows. Sternbach also co-wrote the DS9 Tech Manual.
The whole 'is it canon/is it not' aspect is irritating. We're not talking about some quasi-fanfic book that somehow gets published. These guys were responsible for the look and feel of the show and they put a lot of effort into it.

And at least for the TNG TM came up with a book that is for all practical purposes worthless and massively contradicts the aired material (unless you want to accept 1.05GW Type X phasers).
Besides, wether or not the people writing it were intimately familiar with the franchise is irrelevant. Material is either canon or it is not, and as per Paramount's canon policy, the TMs are NOT.
Trek supporters don't get to use the TMs (not that I can see why they would want to) any more than Wars supporters get to exclude the depressingly large fraction of the EU that stinks to high heaven.

[Junghalli]

Anti-deuterium seems to be the logical choice for annhilation...

At least as far as the matter half of the reaction goes regular hydrogen would be a lot easier to obtain; why would deuterium be preferable?

I honestly don't know and am curious.

[Batman]

The Phantasms quote is pretty good for it. What are you looking for, Geordi to stand there and lecture the audience?

Given they happily do it all the time about topics we couldn't care less about, yes? I already admitted that that example makes it highly probable they use deuterium/anti-deuterium for the Warp Core, I already said that it would be logical for them to do so given we know they use deuterium for their fusion reactors. But to my knowledge nobody ever explicitly says they use deuterium/anti-deuterium in the Warp Core.

[Batman]

And at least for the TNG TM came up with a book that is for all practical purposes worthless and massively contradicts the aired material (unless you want to accept 1.05GW Type X phasers).

wat. I've never read the TM, but nobody has pointed out a big contradiction. There's nothing inheriently wrong with 1.05 GW starship phasers, and it follows the general numbers the writers put in the episodes - they more often than not use gigawatts when talking about the ships.

Yes there is. The figures derived from the aired material show phaser firepower considerably exceeding that. It also doesn't mesh well with the alleged MT-range PT firepower values.

Besides, wether or not the people writing it were intimately familiar with the franchise is irrelevant. Material is either canon or it is not, and as per Paramount's canon policy, the TMs are NOT.

There's only a narrow band of people who give a flying fuck about the official canon policy anyway.

That narrow band of people including those who are in charge of this board. Which means those canon policies stand until further notice I'm afraid.

That narrow band of people often did not include the writers and producers! If the background material helps you understand some background material, all the better.

Doesn't make it any more relevant in a vs debate I'm afraid.

The official policy changes from time to time too. The interwebs are hinting to me that TAS is now canon, after being originally canon, then switched to non-canon at a random whim of Gene.

And I'm sure once the TMs (or TAS, for that matter) are declared canon again, they will be treated as canon again. For the time being, however, they are not.

[Bakustra]

So, quick question for Batman. Since we have all this stuff about the "rules of canon", are you going to incorporate Jeri Taylor's two novels about Star Trek: Voyager, as those are "famously" canon where other Trek novels are not? If not, why? If so, why?

[SeaTrooper]

So, quick question for Batman. Since we have all this stuff about the "rules of canon", are you going to incorporate Jeri Taylor's two novels about Star Trek: Voyager, as those are "famously" canon where other Trek novels are not? If not, why? If so, why?

Were canon! I've since seen posted quotes (elsewhere on this site) from a Paramount rep stating that she's been ditched. From my read of the situation, she declared herself canon, and was only able to hold onto this for as long as she remained with the production team.

Still, let me know if you've heard different

[Justice]

Well, whatever is in them that has been mentioned is canon. I think I remember this being mentioned in the RSA Hatemail stuff, Battle Against Paramount edition, but my connection is horrible right now so I can't check it that quickly. But the stuff actually mentioned on the show is the only stuff that was ever canon: while she may have used the books as her own background for writing, if it wasn't actually shown on the show it wasn't canon.

[Bakustra]

So, quick question for Batman. Since we have all this stuff about the "rules of canon", are you going to incorporate Jeri Taylor's two novels about Star Trek: Voyager, as those are "famously" canon where other Trek novels are not? If not, why? If so, why?

Were canon! I've since seen posted quotes (elsewhere on this site) from a Paramount rep stating that she's been ditched. From my read of the situation, she declared herself canon, and was only able to hold onto this for as long as she remained with the production team.

Still, let me know if you've heard different

Okay, the point is why they were considered canon. She considered them canon because she used background material from them in the show, right? And when she left, they ditched them. But the TM was also written by people from the show, the guys who filled in all the little [TECH] notes that the writers left in the script. So I think that they would be the ones to go to for the technical material, seeing as they wrote most of the stuff. So the same justification that Taylor used for her novels is even stronger for the TNG Technical Manual.

[RedImperator]

The Phantasms quote is pretty good for it. What are you looking for, Geordi to stand there and lecture the audience?

Given they happily do it all the time about topics we couldn't care less about, yes? I already admitted that that example makes it highly probable they use deuterium/anti-deuterium for the Warp Core, I already said that it would be logical for them to do so given we know they use deuterium for their fusion reactors. But to my knowledge nobody ever explicitly says they use deuterium/anti-deuterium in the Warp Core.

So what? Who cares? Unless you're trying to be a boring, pedantic fuckwit, it's obvious they use deuterium as a reactant in the warp drive.

[SeaTrooper]

The TM may or may not be official canon, but it was a guide many of the writers used, so a lot of the stuff in there was worked into episodes anyway, though maybe not spoon fed to you.

Just to provide a little bit more information: the TNG Tech Manual was written by Rick Sternbach and Michael Okuda, and they actually worked on the shows. Sternbach also co-wrote the DS9 Tech Manual.
The whole 'is it canon/is it not' aspect is irritating. We're not talking about some quasi-fanfic book that somehow gets published. These guys were responsible for the look and feel of the show and they put a lot of effort into it.

And at least for the TNG TM came up with a book that is for all practical purposes worthless and massively contradicts the aired material (unless you want to accept 1.05GW Type X phasers).
Besides, wether or not the people writing it were intimately familiar with the franchise is irrelevant. Material is either canon or it is not, and as per Paramount's canon policy, the TMs are NOT.
Trek supporters don't get to use the TMs (not that I can see why they would want to) any more than Wars supporters get to exclude the depressingly large fraction of the EU that stinks to high heaven.

You're correct in that the TNG TM was the most widely used source at the time, and no doubt many of the rotating-door writers had no choice but to use it. On the other hand, I threw my copy away years ago, because even I could see then that the wrong people had been asked to create it.

Sternbach and Okuda (though hugely skilled in their own specialities) are artists and illustrators, with apparently little technical background at all. If you want someone to draw a beautiful ship, make up a fantasy language from scratch or draft deck-plans from notes, they are certainly the right people to see. Just don't expect them to understand basic chemistry, physics or engineering. As artists, I have a lot of respect for both of them, yet they really should have sought advice from others when creating the TM.

The 1.05Gw Type X phasers have always been issue. Not because magic-NDF wasn't considered, but because even the DET observed (as low as it often was) greatly exceeded that figure. If they truly were wedded to such a low figure, then perhaps retconning it into 'trigger energy' for a later, stronger weapons blast might have worked, yet this was never done either. I am now standingby for Picard to take this completely out of context, in order to support his ludicrous, fanboy-wank power claims

[Kythnos]

Before I commented on the “planetary shields” of Star Trek I wanted to watch the episode “Whom Gods Destroy” completely so I would not miss anything. (Before I begin my analysis I wanted to say although there are numerous items that could be used to declare this episode Non-Cannon I will not be bring those up so as to focus on the matter at hand.)
My conclusion is that the Planet is protected by a shield to prevent beaming only.
That is not the only one that can be reached and a planetary deflector shield is possible but given the weight of evidence it is less probable “according to my analysis of the information provided.” Indeed the technology used to create a shield to prevent beaming might also be used to make one that prevents damage.

I attempted to copy the dialog as said no matter which conclusion it supports. That said I did leave out a few words that I thought did not effect the important information if however I made any mistakes that you think would effect the out come please feel free to point them out.

“Whom Gods Destroy”
Dialog/scenes pertaining to the Force Field:

About 10 minutes in:

Sulu: “We can’t beam anyone down the force field is in full operation and all forms of transport into the asylum dome is blocked off.”
Scotty : “We could blast our way through the field but only at the risk of destroying the Captain, Mr Spock and any other living thing on elba2.”
Bones: “How could we be powerful enough to wipe out a planet and still be so helpless.”

Sulu’s line here would have been taken to mean that a deflector field is up and preventing “shuttles” from approaching the dome however he says “into the asylum dome” showing he means only transporters.

The Scotty’s line here could be implying that there is a “deflector shield” like the ship uses or he could simply be saying that to reach the shield emitter or power source would require the targeting of the Asylum itself almost guaranteeing the death of those people they want to save. He also makes it a point to say that “blasting” their way in would not be overly difficult just that it would not have the desired effects, as every living thing on Elba 2 is in the dome.

Bones statement is can be taken as hyperbole showing how he feels at that moment, powerless to help.

About 26 minutes in:

Sulu: “The force field is weakest on the far side of the planet. We can send down a team in environmental suits.”
Bones: “It won’t work Scotty they would have to cover thousands of miles in a poisonous atmosphere before they would ever reach the Asylum.”
Scotty: “ Ay your right. Even if they made it they could not carry anything power enough to break through the Asylum dome, only the ship herself could do that. ”
Bones “Probably kill Jim and Spock.”
Scotty: “Doctor they may already be dead.”

Sulu’s line shows as stated by many others that the protection covers the entire planet or nearly so.
Bone’s line shows the planet is at least as big as Earth’s Moon. Although a full size planet is still possible he is a “Doctor not a Geologist”, he should have said 10’s of thousands of miles.
Scotty points out that the Dome, seeming to imply a physical object and not a projection, would be immune to any weapon that could be carried, and that hitting it with the ships weapons would kill everyone under it. This can also be used to show that the dome would not be destroyed by the collateral damage caused by blasting through a deflector field. As the material is so strong that no hand weapon could damage it so it could not be so weak that any hit from the ships weapons no matter how glancing or brief would destroy it out right. More on the logic about the power of ships weapons later on.


About 40 minutes in:

Bones “Got to break thought is some how”
Scotty “I told you we could not do it without killing everyone in the Asylum dome.”
Bones: “I know it Scotty..”
Scotty: “There is one last thing we might try. Perhaps the Ships phasers can cut through the force field at its weakest point? Mr. Sulu where did you say that was located?”
Sulu: “On the far side of the planet Mr. Scott.”
Bones: “ Leave a margin of safety for the people below.”
Ship moves to a point where it can attack the weakest point of the shield. (Dialog generally unimportant)
2 blasts of full powered phasers later.
Sulu “Force field still holding sir.”

Scotty is here trying to “disrupt” the shield by attacking it at its weakest point, once the shield is down they would be able to beam down additional men and help secure the asylum. We can make this point because he said the ships weapons could blast through before and here they have “failed” to do so, showing that they failed to disrupt the shield as He was hoping. Not that no damage got through a deflector type shield, although that is a small possibility because at this point it is unlikely that he is planning to send troops walking to the location as it would take weeks to cover the minimum distance mentioned by Bones. (Guessing that the Asylum is protected by phaser cannons to prevent shuttles from landing to close. As this would be needed for either type of shield to prevent shuttles from flying under the shield to the dome if it was a true “deflector shield“ or just preventing the shuttle from landing directly if not.)
Bones statement “Leave a margin of safety for the people below” can be taken to mean that the ships weapons are so powerful as to destroy the planet or at least the dome no matter where the weapons hit. This cannot be for several reasons first Scotty uses “full powered” blasts showing that they can control the damage they inflict and need not make every shot that powerful and by that logic the weakest shot could not help but destroy a planet something we never see proof of even when it would have been useful to do so. Second simple geometry should show you that it would be possible to hit the shield and yet miss the planet, preventing the damage feared. With that removed Bones could be talking about:

1) It is also possible that the Asylum has a self-destruct device to prevent escape or “rescue” of the prisoners. Ergo the “shield” may only be a net designed to detect unauthorized landing and activate the self-destruct. That being said Bones wants Scotty to uses only the power need to accomplish his goals but not enough to activate self-destruct.

2) It has also been put forth that the shield generator may over load casing it to explode, if it is knocked down. This too however would not support the “defector field” option as we never see a failed defector cause massive damage, and the Enterprise fields seen to fail every other episode.

3) He wants the “hole” in the shield to be close enough that the rescue team can arrive as fast as possible.

Point 3 seems the most likely to me. In the weight of that evidence I don’t fined conclusive proof for planetary shields as everything said has other more reasonable explanations.
But I am sure I missed a few points both for and against, so lets hear them. (please list episode, time index and dialog that support your conclusions.) (and yes I am sure that my spelling and grammar can be corrected. )