ST v SW

[Imperial528]

Cesario, you act like the people of the empire knowing that somewhere far away there are higher standards of living means they will automatically rebel en-mass and in force. I could definitely see an increase in uprisings for the short term after contact with the Federation, but that is really only if information about the Federation's standards of living can even get to the people most likely to rebel, such as those in the low-end of the economy or who live on some world with a terrible governor.

I mean, really, your assumption is foolish. There are tons of countries in the world who are absolute shit holes and we don't see their people rising up against there government because the first world countries exist.

You're also assuming that the standards of living in the Empire are universally lower than those of the Federation, which I doubt is true. On average they might very well be lower, but I can't see people living in the nice parts of Coruscant caring at all, or the people on any other well to do worlds such as Kuat.

If Palpy seriously has an issue with the Federation being known about he fortunately has this thing called propaganda, with how the Empire controls the entire Holonet.

[Cesario]

There's a fairly significant difference between the gap between first world and third world countries, and the gap between UTOPIAs and everyone else.

Let's recall that the Empire is the pinacle of civilization as far as they're concened. Any problems they have are, in their minds, unavoidable. Corrupt politicians are something you just have to accept because there's no better way. The rich get richer and the poor get poorer, and that's just the way of thing, and there's nothing you can do about that either.

But then you find an actual utopia. A place that not only proves it doesn't have to be this way, but actually has instructions for how you get there from a bombed out post-appocoliptic hellhole with drug addicted supersoldiers gunning down people at mock trials.

It's one thing to generally object to a corrupt government. It's another thing to be given a completely viable alternative that can errase litterally every social ill in your society.

[Imperial528]

I wouldn't say that the Federation is a complete utopia. Yes, its main worlds are post-scarcity, but that doesn't mean its colonies, especially new acquisitions or members, would immediately be up to the level of Earth or Vulcan. Especially when such new member worlds would be in a whole different galaxy that has a big scary empire that would easily respond with force to any active rebellions, and before the Federation could or would be able to respond. (Let's not forget that many Federation colonies are destroyed/raped by the Bad Guy/Monster of the Week before the Heroes show up.)

You can't just spout "UTOPIA!" and assume that your side wins the culture war. Sure, if I'm living in place A which is more or less the embodiment of hell on earth and I see just across the river place B which is a perfect post-scarcity society I would be pretty damn likely to try and go there.

That is until I remember that the guy with a gun in charge of the hellhole and his rich cronies who live in an equally perfect environment to place B would probably kill me quite horribly should I even try to get there.

And that's assuming that I even find out about place B, which given that the people in charge control the largest mass media network in its entirety there's a good chance I won't. Of course there's also the chance that place B's government might just say to me: "We're sorry about your situation but we feel that it is wrong to get involved with the internal matters of other nations, sorry about that but you'll just have to go back now."

[Cesario]

Except that even for the people at the top, you aren't living in a utopia. You're just the king of bumtown.

As to the military protection angle, it seems to me that anyone looking at it from that angle would simply say, "They can't defend themselves because their starships don't have our 200 GIGAWATT TURBOLASERS. If we remodeled our culture to be like theirs, we could be living in a utopia that also had 200 GIGAWATT TURBOLASER armed ships to defned us. Duh."

As to no one finding out, people in the ass end of nowhere know about the rebellion and are able to find and join it. Word seems to get around even with Imperial control over the holonet.

[Imperial528]

Do you really think the people at the top would care? They're Palpy's cronies most likely because its the safest way to make sure their power is safe. Living in a Federation-style society would mean that they would have to give up their power to the very class of people they are oppressing to keep their power safe. And such people would be downright hostile to such a society.
Again, look at reality for a comparison. I'm sure the world would be a better place for everyone if all of the rich and powerful people banded together to create a modern utopia, which they very well could, but would they ever do that? No, only a very small amount of people are like that, and even less people like that are also in the position where they could act toward achieving such a goal.

I don't see why you brought up firepower. My point was one of simple logistics and response time, the Federation is by nature of the scenario much further away from any Imperial world that rebels than the Imperial fleet is, so the simple fact of the matter is that by the time the rebelling world could be assisted by outside help the local sector fleet has probably already subdued the revolts.

[the atom]

Yes, but again, the only reason to attack the Federation at all is if the evil wizard in charge doesn't want his people to know there's a better way of living. And to stop that idea from spreading, the only option is to kill everyone who could spread that idea.

How are the people of the Empire even supposed to get this information in the first place? Nothing is going to come out of the portal (I'm assuming the portal scenario for simplicity's sake) without the say-so of Imperial intelligence. I'd be amazed if they even publicized the mere existence of this new galaxy, let alone discussed the finer details with the general public.

[Cesario]

Do you really think the people at the top would care? They're Palpy's cronies most likely because its the safest way to make sure their power is safe. Living in a Federation-style society would mean that they would have to give up their power to the very class of people they are oppressing to keep their power safe. And such people would be downright hostile to such a society.
Again, look at reality for a comparison. I'm sure the world would be a better place for everyone if all of the rich and powerful people banded together to create a modern utopia, which they very well could, but would they ever do that? No, only a very small amount of people are like that, and even less people like that are also in the position where they could act toward achieving such a goal.

Yep, those are real problems for pretty much any society attempting to transition to a utopia. I don't know how you get from here to there, but do you really think there weren't evil people at the top of the post-nuclear drug-fueled supersoldiers phase of earth history? The Federation knows how you get there from here. They have a map and answers to those questions, which is why they're such a threat to the evil wizard who's fueled by hate and suffering.

I don't see why you brought up firepower. My point was one of simple logistics and response time, the Federation is by nature of the scenario much further away from any Imperial world that rebels than the Imperial fleet is, so the simple fact of the matter is that by the time the rebelling world could be assisted by outside help the local sector fleet has probably already subdued the revolts.

My point was that the Federation doesn't need to be a power capable of lending logistical assistance to anyone. Simply by existing and communicating with the Empire (as would happen when there is trade or when the member worlds are conquored), they can get information out to the oppressed masses who will be a lot more inclined to rise up if they can actually see a better future, rather than being able to cynically assume that their current oppressive regime is the best they can get.

Yes, but again, the only reason to attack the Federation at all is if the evil wizard in charge doesn't want his people to know there's a better way of living. And to stop that idea from spreading, the only option is to kill everyone who could spread that idea.

How are the people of the Empire even supposed to get this information in the first place? Nothing is going to come out of the portal (I'm assuming the portal scenario for simplicity's sake) without the say-so of Imperial intelligence. I'd be amazed if they even publicized the mere existence of this new galaxy, let alone discussed the finer details with the general public.

Because every member of Imperial intelligence is as pure evil as Palpetine? Because that's what it'll take to shut down the alure of actually having an actual roadmap to a proven-to-work utopia handed to you.

[Imperial528]

Yep, those are real problems for pretty much any society attempting to transition to a utopia. I don't know how you get from here to there, but do you really think there weren't evil people at the top of the post-nuclear drug-fueled supersoldiers phase of earth history? The Federation knows how you get there from here. They have a map and answers to those questions, which is why they're such a threat to the evil wizard who's fueled by hate and suffering.

The thing is that the Federation formed from a group of planets willing to cooperate with each other, and who had already more or less been well developed and peaceful internally. They didn't have to deal with a large empire who would easily and quickly crush them for daring to speak of changing the status quo.

My point was that the Federation doesn't need to be a power capable of lending logistical assistance to anyone. Simply by existing and communicating with the Empire (as would happen when there is trade or when the member worlds are conquored), they can get information out to the oppressed masses who will be a lot more inclined to rise up if they can actually see a better future, rather than being able to cynically assume that their current oppressive regime is the best they can get.

So you really think that the people of the empire, just by observing what you claim to be a utopia, will suddenly rise-up en-mass and revolt in force and succeed? Despite any threat of force or the use of effective propaganda?

Let me break down what you're saying:

First, you say that the Federation is a working utopia, which is an assumption that I'm not willing to challenge.
Then you say that just by hearing about how great the Federation is, Imperial citizens will rise up and overthrow the existing Imperial government because the Federation is an example of a working utopia.

The problem I have is that you haven't provided any evidence for your claim, you just keep saying it will happen because... utopia! Also, you have ignored real world examples of similar social disparity because... the disparity isn't great enough?

Here's a good example, North and South Korea. North Korea's people are in extreme poverty and are ruled by a supreme leader and his cronies. South Korea is right next door and has a drastically higher standard of living. And yet the inhabitants of North Korea still have yet to have a mass revolt and overthrow their leader. In fact, they adore him like he's some sort of god, and North Korea propaganda is good enough that many North Koreans probably wouldn't even care if the rest of the world lived better then they did, because the rest of the world doesn't have their Dear Leader.

[the atom]

Because every member of Imperial intelligence is as pure evil as Palpetine? Because that's what it'll take to shut down the alure of actually having an actual roadmap to a proven-to-work utopia handed to you.

I don't follow. Are you saying that every member of Imperial intelligence is just as cartoony super-villain evil as Palpatine and would therefore decide to genocide the AQ for teh lulz?

[Stofsk]

Noooo - he's saying the opposite. Every member of Imperial Intelligence would have to be insanely stupidly evil in order to prevent access to the Milky Way. But they're obviously not, given how lots of people from the Imperial side defected to the Rebels.

[Cesario]

Yep, those are real problems for pretty much any society attempting to transition to a utopia. I don't know how you get from here to there, but do you really think there weren't evil people at the top of the post-nuclear drug-fueled supersoldiers phase of earth history? The Federation knows how you get there from here. They have a map and answers to those questions, which is why they're such a threat to the evil wizard who's fueled by hate and suffering.

The thing is that the Federation formed from a group of planets willing to cooperate with each other, and who had already more or less been well developed and peaceful internally. They didn't have to deal with a large empire who would easily and quickly crush them for daring to speak of changing the status quo.

You seem to have forgotten that each and every one of those worlds didn't start off as peaceful cooperative entities. They all have histories involving tyrants and they all know exactly how they rebuilt their societies to ensure that they would never devolve to that state again. They study their history. Extensively. Obsessively even. And that means everyone in this civilization knows how you get from a despotic military dictatorship enforced at the gunpoint of drug-addicted supersoldiers who aren't particularly big on dissent themselves, to a post-scarcity utopia where no one tries to become a tyrant anymore. That's the threat I'm talking about. It's further in the past than the founding of the Federation.

My point was that the Federation doesn't need to be a power capable of lending logistical assistance to anyone. Simply by existing and communicating with the Empire (as would happen when there is trade or when the member worlds are conquored), they can get information out to the oppressed masses who will be a lot more inclined to rise up if they can actually see a better future, rather than being able to cynically assume that their current oppressive regime is the best they can get.

So you really think that the people of the empire, just by observing what you claim to be a utopia, will suddenly rise-up en-mass and revolt in force and succeed? Despite any threat of force or the use of effective propaganda?

Let me break down what you're saying:

First, you say that the Federation is a working utopia, which is an assumption that I'm not willing to challenge.
Then you say that just by hearing about how great the Federation is, Imperial citizens will rise up and overthrow the existing Imperial government because the Federation is an example of a working utopia.

The problem I have is that you haven't provided any evidence for your claim, you just keep saying it will happen because... utopia! Also, you have ignored real world examples of similar social disparity because... the disparity isn't great enough?

Here's a good example, North and South Korea. North Korea's people are in extreme poverty and are ruled by a supreme leader and his cronies. South Korea is right next door and has a drastically higher standard of living. And yet the inhabitants of North Korea still have yet to have a mass revolt and overthrow their leader. In fact, they adore him like he's some sort of god, and North Korea propaganda is good enough that many North Koreans probably wouldn't even care if the rest of the world lived better then they did, because the rest of the world doesn't have their Dear Leader.

I'll note that when this conversation started, I explicitly stated that the Empire's desire to get into any kind of conflict with the Federation was dependent on how real the federation's utopia is. It's under the assumption that it's real that the Empire has any reason at all to get into a conflict.

That said, what the Federation has that South Korea doesn't is a clear roadmap from the darkest point in human history to the absolute height. Not just the idea that they'd be better off without their beloved leader, but a way of structuring a society where their beloved leader could still be around and beloved, while everyone also gets everything they ever wanted. No corperate cronyism and the old world winners can still be happy, fulfilled, and successful.

What the Federation has acheaved is sociologically impossible by real-world standards, and very much as pie-in-the-sky impossible as faster than light travel, and like FTL we the audience in the real world will never know how they did it. But in universe, they did it, and like Warp Drive, they know how it works.

Who wouldn't be willing to fight for that lifestyle instead of the twenty-thousand-year cycle of repeated civil wars (and not too hot times in between either) that this galaxy has been stuck with?

[the atom]

*Double facepalm* My sarcasm meter appears to be a little broken today.

I don't really see how that would be the case either. Sure bits and pieces might leak out, but this isn't the same thing as some sympathetic officer looking the other way to a few transmissions being sent to the other side of the galaxy. Chances are a discovery like this would be much higher priority, and as a result there'd be much higher scrutiny on anything going back and forth between the two galaxies.

[Stofsk]

Of course, it depends on who exactly made the discovery on either side of the wormhole.

[Cesario]

*Double facepalm* My sarcasm meter appears to be a little broken today.

I don't really see how that would be the case either. Sure bits and pieces might leak out, but this isn't the same thing as some sympathetic officer looking the other way to a few transmissions being sent to the other side of the galaxy. Chances are a discovery like this would be much higher priority, and as a result there'd be much higher scrutiny on anything going back and forth between the two galaxies.

Yes, the discovery of a functioning government that completely invalidates the Sith Philosophy that underlies the Empire, and offers the chance for peace and prosperity for everyone is precisely the sort of threat that would need to be treated seriously by an Evil Galactic Empire, but the problem is, how brainwashed and/or stupid are the imperial intelligence officers that they'll look at this with open eyes and ensure that the only people who ever learn about this paradise and the path to acheaving it for themselves are the ones dedicated to destroying all that is good?

Palpetine's empire isn't full of brainwashed drones. They have a fairly major rebellion going on, pretty much from its founding. Sith devotees have been turned by ideas with less promise than this.

Palpetine's best chance is to start the war quickly, blitz propoganda at full volume, and kill anyone who could get the truth out as quickly and thoroughly as possible. Because if the idea gets out, if the instructions for building a utopia get out, his empire is doomed.

Let me make the threat of this culture war clear with one of my favorite clips from Deep Space Nine:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TREQGl54BU8

[Stofsk]

Oh man I love that clip.

[The Romulan Republic]

I think Cesario's depiction of the Federation as utopia is somewhat exaggerated: their woeful lack of military readiness in the early TNG era, the whole Marquis debacle (which pretty much became a mini-civil war within the Federation) and the poor standards on rights for artificial intelligence (among other things) all undermine the Utopia argument. As does the very existence of Section 31.

But yeah, its better than the Empire. Its not hard to beat a state that routinely tortures, blows up, and enslaves its own people under the reign of a fucking dark lord.

[Stofsk]

It's also not a post-scarcity economy either, but frankly I wouldn't count the lack of military readiness as some kind of slight against the Federation. Nor the Maquis 'debacle' - which was something that frankly the Maquis brought upon themselves. The Federation did everything they could to relocate the Maquis colonies but the latter simply refused - and they paid for that decision years later.

The attitude against artificial life wasn't that bad - sure, one guy tried to argue Data was Starfleet property but in the end of the episode he was ruled to be an autonomous sentient individual with rights. The bigger slight was actually the Federation's attitude against gene-modded people.

The Federation isn't perfect. But it's still pretty awesome society all things considered.

[Cesario]

Note that the only thing the genetically modified can't do is join Starfleet. And even that rule wasn't an ironclad absolute as we see with Julian.

As to what became of his parents, let's also note that they put Julain through this medical procedure without his consent. That may well be where the crime lay.

Artificial intelligence rights are still being sorted out in the Federation, but for the most part, they're moving in the right direction precisely because they've got a social system that raises people to be able to look past their own prejudices and instills a desire for justice. Every non-main at Data's trial started that one with the preconception that Data was just a machine, but they were also all openminded enough that they were actually listening to the arguments of their oposition. In far less than ideal conditions, I might add.

[Connor MacLeod]

Actually this leads to a hilarious method of the Empire defeating the federation: Let the information get out that this is a perfect, perfect utopia. And don't stop anyone from going there if they want. Imagine the chaos arising from trillions/quadrillions of citizens from the SW galaxy flooding the Federation's worlds. The logistics alone is going to be staggering.

And while ST has more neat toys than SW (at least the movies portray), I'm not sure I'd want to live there unless I was guaranteed an existence on one of the major worlds (like Earth.) Colonies tend to have a mixed record of survival in Trek, and there's lots of random, nasty unknowns out there.

[Cesario]

That is an amusing use of the Empire's population advantage.

[Stofsk]

Note that the only thing the genetically modified can't do is join Starfleet. And even that rule wasn't an ironclad absolute as we see with Julian.

That's bad enough though.

As to what became of his parents, let's also note that they put Julain through this medical procedure without his consent. That may well be where the crime lay.

They had his best interests in mind though. But I don't remember that episode well enough to argue the point.

Artificial intelligence rights are still being sorted out in the Federation, but for the most part, they're moving in the right direction precisely because they've got a social system that raises people to be able to look past their own prejudices and instills a desire for justice. Every non-main at Data's trial started that one with the preconception that Data was just a machine, but they were also all openminded enough that they were actually listening to the arguments of their oposition. In far less than ideal conditions, I might add.

Let's agree to ignore Voyager and its treatment of holographic life :V

Actually this leads to a hilarious method of the Empire defeating the federation: Let the information get out that this is a perfect, perfect utopia. And don't stop anyone from going there if they want. Imagine the chaos arising from trillions/quadrillions of citizens from the SW galaxy flooding the Federation's worlds. The logistics alone is going to be staggering.

The population of the Federation is already pretty large, but an influx would still cause chaos and disruption I agree.

And while ST has more neat toys than SW (at least the movies portray), I'm not sure I'd want to live there unless I was guaranteed an existence on one of the major worlds (like Earth.) Colonies tend to have a mixed record of survival in Trek, and there's lots of random, nasty unknowns out there.

Neither universe has a guarantee on safety. SW is arguably worse - we've seen many highly populated city planets be attacked and outright destroyed in the case of Alderaan, but very rarely do we see major worlds in the Federation be attacked or destroyed (earth seems to get picked on by various galactic menaces but there's always some intrepid crew of adventurers around to save the day).

[Cesario]

Artificial intelligence rights are still being sorted out in the Federation, but for the most part, they're moving in the right direction precisely because they've got a social system that raises people to be able to look past their own prejudices and instills a desire for justice. Every non-main at Data's trial started that one with the preconception that Data was just a machine, but they were also all openminded enough that they were actually listening to the arguments of their oposition. In far less than ideal conditions, I might add.

Let's agree to ignore Voyager and its treatment of holographic life :V

I think that's something we can all get behind.

[The Romulan Republic]

It's also not a post-scarcity economy either, but frankly I wouldn't count the lack of military readiness as some kind of slight against the Federation. Nor the Maquis 'debacle' - which was something that frankly the Maquis brought upon themselves. The Federation did everything they could to relocate the Maquis colonies but the latter simply refused - and they paid for that decision years later.

The attitude against artificial life wasn't that bad - sure, one guy tried to argue Data was Starfleet property but in the end of the episode he was ruled to be an autonomous sentient individual with rights. The bigger slight was actually the Federation's attitude against gene-modded people.

The Federation isn't perfect. But it's still pretty awesome society all things considered.

As has been discussed God knows how many times on these forums and the main site, their ground forces are underequipped. There are also issues with internal security and lack of available Starships.

As for the Marquis... sure, the Federation tried to resolve it. But its hard to call something a Utopia when a significant number of its citizens and military officers rebel and become terrorists. And while Data's rights were upheld, holograms were still treated poorly about a decade later.

[Stofsk]

The only way they're underequipped is because we never see them pack up things for long term surveys on planets. Since there is almost always a starship in orbit and you can get supplies simply by having them beamed down to your location, or beam yourself up, having a pack may not be as necessary as it is today.

I also don't know if I would call the Maquis a 'significant' number. I mean we don't really know how many people lived in the DMZ, nor how many people defected to them, but it couldn't have been that much as the Enterprise was ordered to resettle some colonists elsewhere (and I believe the same offer was extended to all the other colonies). There were a few senior officers like Hudson, Riker Two and Eddington, and a few junior officers like Ro Laren and Paris (actually I am not sure Paris counts much the same way Chakotay doesn't - I don't think either one was in Starfleet at the time they joined the Maquis). But I suppose I agree that if the Federation were perfect then those idiots would have relocated rather than take up arms.

And I thought we agreed not to bring up Voyager's bollocks

[Connor MacLeod]

Star Trek's military is only 'bad' in a 'crossover' sense, but that is hardly unique to Trek (Star Wars, 40K, etc. all have their share of 'poor' military something or others.. whether its vehicle design, gear, or whatever.) For it's own universe it seems to fit the dynamic. We've never really seen any great push for massive ground forces or anything like that (and depending on who you ask, people insist starships make such concepts obsolete.) and the nature of their combat seems to focus around small unit/close quarters combat (with transporters, shuttles, etc. this would make sense.) All their hardware tends to be man portable or easily deployed (the dune buggy. the laser artillery from The Cage, the photon mortars, etc.) And I would point out that not having massive ground militaries can 'make sense' in that you save alot in terms of money and resources which would otherwise be wasted (and can be spent elsewhere.) It's a tradeoff, but it's not neccesarily a bad one.

Neither universe has a guarantee on safety. SW is arguably worse - we've seen many highly populated city planets be attacked and outright destroyed in the case of Alderaan, but very rarely do we see major worlds in the Federation be attacked or destroyed (earth seems to get picked on by various galactic menaces but there's always some intrepid crew of adventurers around to save the day).

While you have a point, I'd argue its a relative thing. The SW galaxy is largely settled and 'civilised' - some places are wilder than others and there is the ever present danger of civil wars or piracy, but you aren't going to have great Space amobae, crystalline entities, or random super powerful alien aggressors popping out of the woodwork to threaten you - several of which I might add have proven initially superior (or numerically greater) tahn the Federation (The Borg and the Dominion.) Star Wars' risks are ones that can be controlled and localized to prevent them from spililng over (this is one of the more valid arguments against SUPERMASSIVEGIGATONNAGES being common actually. you don't want pirates, terrorists, or civilllians getting easy access to that sort of stuff.) The Federation occupies a much smaller portion of the galaxy, and being on a colony is something of a risk/gamble for the reasons I outlined above (that doesn't mean its happening frequently either, but its still a risk.)