A way ST forces could win a battle with the Empire

[Lunacy1]

After the shields are announced to be down, the "intensify forward firepower" order is give, cos he wants "nothing getting through". Why would that order be given if shields being up or down makes no difference?

[Batman]

I was rather under the impression that everybody agrees that it makes a hell of a difference, the point under dispute being whether or not they were up when the A-Wings blew up the bridge globe thingies?

[Lord Revan]

Something to consider, that while ships like Star Destroyers that regulary deploy and recive secondary craft while in combat, so shields that you can pass thru if you move a certain way might make sense for them. Ships like the CR-90 don't normally deploy secondary craft while under attack and thus could use shield that are "solid" like the one around DS2 (though it should be noted that DS2 was able to shoot thru those shields so they might be like a 1-way mirror), after all why make weak spot into the shields if you don't need it.

there's also the thing that is how big is too big for the tactic in the OP to be successful in crippling or at least damaging the craft signifigantly.

[Batman]

Except we know from the EU that they DO have to drop at least particle shields to get parasite craft out. HTTE comes to mind.
And since Wars capital ship shields of the imperial era tend to be hull-hugging, I suspect 'too big' means anything more than a few centimetres across.

[Lord Revan]

I was thinking more on lines how big would the SW ship have to be for its armor to be too thick to be drilled thru in any reasonble time frame by a shuttle sized craft, as I dout anything much bigger could fly both in close enough formation with the SW that's unawere of it's presence and avoid collitions at the same time.

[Batman]

For a shuttle with Trek weapons? I suspect anything military bigger than the shuttle. Cloak or no cloak, they'll be noticed once they open fire, and I suspect the crew of the Wars ship is going to take exception to that.

[DieselJester]

Either way, wouldn't a Cloaked Star Trek ship getting through the shields of an ISD be a moot point anyways? Isn't an ISD's armor either too thick or have some kind of odd characteristics that would interfere with Starfleet's ability to do anything to it, save for MAYBE finding a thin point where there's a viewport to use their transporters or something? Not to mention that if we're talking that Starfleet is trying to pull off this little trick during a battle in which the ISD would be at full alert and while you have movements, tactics, other starfighters, random shots, etc. going on all around.

I could just see the TurboLaser Gunners now firing at a different target when Starfleet happens to wander by and take a shot while they're cloaked trying to set up whatever miracle they're trying to pull off:

Gunner One: "Woah! What'd we just hit right next to the ship?"
Gunner Two: "I dunno, but let's make sure that it's dead."


Sorry, but in my opinion Starfleet still loses.

[Captain Seafort]

Either way, wouldn't a Cloaked Star Trek ship getting through the shields of an ISD be a moot point anyways?

No more or less so than an A-Wing. Brian's theory was partially based around the assumption that since fighters exist, then they must be able to hurt capships, even if it's only the soft spots like sensors and windows.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

Either way, wouldn't a Cloaked Star Trek ship getting through the shields of an ISD be a moot point anyways?

No more or less so than an A-Wing. Brian's theory was partially based around the assumption that since fighters exist, then they must be able to hurt capships, even if it's only the soft spots like sensors and windows.

Whenever a debate about fighters vs capships arises, it always boils down to what type of missiles the fighters are carrying, which begs the question- what fighter-bourne missiles can damage a capship?

[Captain Seafort]

Whenever a debate about fighters vs capships arises, it always boils down to what type of missiles the fighters are carrying, which begs the question- what fighter-bourne missiles can damage a capship?

If they hit unarmoured hull, any of them - look at the way they ripped lumps out of the Death Star in ANH.

[Batman]

And we don't even know for certain that was unarmoured (at least I don't). Besides, you don't have to kill a ship to mission kill it. A warship with all its vital systems intact and nothing but minor already contained hull breaches is still moderately useless with half its offensive weapons and two thirds of its sensors out of commission even temporarily. Sure, it'll be back in a month or three, but the battle you're currently fighting, she's out of it.
Then there's capital ships, and there's capital ships. B-Wings destroying a Nebulon-B or Carrack is a lot easier than doing it to a Star Destroyer, and unless the fighters you need to do it represent a massively larger investment in materials and money than having the necessary capships do it, it's still worthwhile.
Last but not least, there's commerce raiding, which would be an especially interesting prospect for the resource-starved Rebellion. A squadron of Y-Wings that couldn't hope to touch even a smallish true warship would nevertheless be invaluable in rounding up freighters.

[Jm81]

BZZT. WRONG. The officer tells us they are down. Onus on that being the moment they actually went down is on you to prove.

Easy. The moment the officer told us they were down they dropped and that was after the Awings scored hull damage on the ship. Wow this is too easy as you are so obviously grasping at straws... NEXT!

...where it's patently obvious that the shields are down.

Obvious how? Oh wait that's right you are guy that doesn't care was the intent of the author of the movies wants us to see. You are plucking this out of thin our and a rabid and obviously desperate attempt to save face.

I take it, then, that you can prove the shields were still up when the A-Wings attacked the globe thingies? As in canon sources explicitly saying so?

Yes, the officer tells us when the shields drop as he is intently staring at his instruments in the movie giving his superiors real time updates and that happened after the A-Wings scored hull damage. You make this too easy Haha.

Prove that happened.

Prove it? Like as a character announcing they drop and intently staring at a screen showing us precisely the moment they dropped?

The sequence of events is a) the A-Wings kablooing the Domes and b) somebody their bridge deflector shields are down. Um-yeah. A couple of A-wings just trashed your globe thingy so of course the bridge deflectors were down. SHOW ME ONE CANON PIECE OF EVIDENCE OF THE BRIDGE DEFLECTORS BEING UP DURING THE A-WING ATTACK.

a) Yes.
b) Because if we are told when they go down by the officer that means prior they had to be up! And secondly lets not forget even before they blow up the downs they still had to reach the SSD domes requiring the ability to pass through shielding even before the we get to the point where they open up on the ship.

[Jm81]

I was thinking more on lines how big would the SW ship have to be for its armor to be too thick to be drilled thru in any reasonble time frame by a shuttle sized craft, as I dout anything much bigger could fly both in close enough formation with the SW that's unawere of it's presence and avoid collitions at the same time.

As we talked about before, at some point, a slow and small vessel will exist along the border of the shields even if it is moving through like we see the A-wings do or as we see the Tri-Droids do. So what happens if a small ship holds this position?

[Jm81]

there's also the thing that is how big is too big for the tactic in the OP to be successful in crippling or at least damaging the craft signifigantly.

I agree totally that this tactic would be very selective in what targets this could work on. Definitely not something that can win a war, but sure enough more of a hit and run tactic.

[EnterpriseSovereign]

In effect, what you're describing is a particle beam weapon. The question is, would such a weapon work against the likes of an ISD?

[Captain Seafort]

The moment the officer told us they were down they dropped

The demand was that you prove that that was the moment they went down. Not declare it so of you're own bat based on fuck-all.

Yes, the officer tells us when the shields drop as he is intently staring at his instruments in the movie giving his superiors real time updates

Wrong. The officer in question a) was never seen before or after that brief shot, so your assertion that he was providing real-time updates is pure fabrication and b) wasn't staring intently at at anything. He was standing around, looked down at the readout in response to feeling the explosion, then reported the loss of the shield. The crewman who was staring at the screen throughout the shot didn't react in any way.

Based solely on that clip all we can determine is that the shields had failed at some time before the officer looked down at the screen. Based on Ackbar's earlier statement we know that shields must be knocked out for fighters to stand a chance against capships. Ergo, the shields must have been knocked out before the A-Wings could attack the dome, and the explosion prompted that officer to check their status, discover that the bridge shields were down, and report it to Piett.

Piett responded by ordering "intensify the forward batteries, I don't want anything [almost certainly referring to fighters] to get through". If fighters could pass through shields, then their loss would be not affect the fighters' ability to "get through", and there would be no reason for Piett to alter his fire distribution in response. The fact that he did so provides further evidence that shields stop fighters.

[Batman]

BZZT. WRONG. The officer tells us they are down. Onus on that being the moment they actually went down is on you to prove.

Easy. The moment the officer told us they were down they dropped and that was after the Awings scored hull damage on the ship. Wow this is too easy as you are so obviously grasping at straws... NEXT!

As evidenced by...you saying so. This shows us the shields were down, nothing more.

...where it's patently obvious that the shields are down.

Obvious how? Oh wait that's right you are guy that doesn't care was the intent of the author of the movies wants us to see.

On a forum where that's the modus operandi for vs debates. You get to use what's presented in the canon material, nothing more. But if it makes you feel better, feel free to quote where Lucas or anybody else involved said 'dude that scene was obviously meant to show that fighters can go through shields'.

You are plucking this out of thin our and a rabid and obviously desperate attempt to save face.

Let's see-'Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer', the novel quote saying they have to drop the shields for the fighters to be any use, and what do you know, after they concentrate all fire on Executor, the A-Wings manage to blow up the dome thingie. Could there perhaps be a connection?

I take it, then, that you can prove the shields were still up when the A-Wings attacked the globe thingies? As in canon sources explicitly saying so?

Yes, the officer tells us when the shields drop as he is intently staring at his instruments in the movie giving his superiors real time updates and that happened after the A-Wings scored hull damage. You make this too easy Haha.

Except, as Captain Seafort pointed out, that never actually happened, not that it would prove anything if it had.

Prove that happened.

Prove it? Like as a character announcing they drop and intently staring at a screen showing us precisely the moment they dropped?

You're stating your conclusion as e premise and are wrong to boot, see Captain Seaforts reply. The guy staring at the screen doesn't mean the shields dropped at the moment he anounced it. It just means...the guy was staring at the screen.

The sequence of events is a) the A-Wings kablooing the Domes and b) somebody their bridge deflector shields are down. Um-yeah. A couple of A-wings just trashed your globe thingy so of course the bridge deflectors were down. SHOW ME ONE CANON PIECE OF EVIDENCE OF THE BRIDGE DEFLECTORS BEING UP DURING THE A-WING ATTACK.

a) Yes.
b) Because if we are told when they go down by the officer that means prior they had to be up!

But not that they had to be up by the time of the A-Wing attack you retard.

And secondly lets not forget even before they blow up the downs they still had to reach the SSD domes requiring the ability to pass through shielding even before the we get to the point where they open up on the ship.

Only if the shields were still up. Which you have unsurprisingly failed to prove.

[nightmare]

It's not often these days that you see someone making a SW vs ST argument that isn't just full of shit. So I guess, either props to you, or you missed the boat with over ten years.

Star wars shields, weapons, and power generation far exceeds startrek's. However, utilizing cloaking devices small ST ships can pass through SW shields and deploy anti-matter weapon payloads. While this won't win them a war it does provide a way for ST forces to utilize gorilla warfare to incur heavy losses to the Imperials.

Anti-matter is the only weapon that would be useful as matter armor doesn't offer any protection during the matter antimatter annihilation reaction.

Not correct. Armour protects just fine against antimatter implosions. What it can't do is prevent the reaction in the first place. But an antimatter implosion in space is almost only radiation. So yeah, it goes off. But that doesn't mean that armour doesn't protect a ship against it.

So the assertion of a weakness in SW shielding technology that allows small slow moving ships to pass through their shields is the lynch pin.

That only applies to Death Star One. Fighters are annihilated against ISD shields and the DS2 shields. We can directly observe both of these facts; fighters are annihilated against ISD shields in ROTJ, and the rebels were unable to mount an attack on the open structure of the DS2 until the shields were down.

Canon evidence of this has been compiled by Brian Young and I take no credit in this videos creation nor do I have any part in making it.

Thread: http://forums.asvs.org/showthread.php/2 ... lds-part-2
Movie link is in his first post.

Props to Brian Young, I've followed his videos with great interest and he's even made observations that are new to me, which isn't exactly something you see every day. Your argument, however, is self-defeating since it's built on faulty premises.

[nightmare]

I decided to explain what I'm talking about a little more. First, the CW cartoon is pretty much irrelevant. Sure, it's canon, but it's overruled by the movies. Secondly, no one's ever disputed that you can penetrate ground theatre shields by having ground contact and moving slowly; ground contact is required. We've never see any kind of flying craft penetrate a theatre shield. In fact, it was SW fans that first created this explanation for why the Hoth base was only attacked from the ground.

Secondly, we have very clear indication from the movies that you can't penetrate starship shields simply by flying slowly. One is the TPM battleship. It was impenetrable for the Naboo fighters until Anakin got inside the ship. Which he didn't do by flying slowly; he entered the hangar a split second after it had launched Vulture droids, meaning the shields had to be down at that moment.

Secondly, we have Anakin pinpointing outside shield generators on the Invisible Hand before he and Obi-Wan could even attempt to enter the hangar. If the theory was correct, they'd just had flown in slowly. Furthermore, the main shields would have prevented even attacking the hangar shield generators in the first place.

Third, and in regards to the two A-Wings attacking the Executor, I present the text from the ROTJ novelization which by the way overrules the CW cartoon (or it would have if the cartoon had any bearing on this, which it doesn't):

Ackbar stared wild-eyed out the observation window. He was looking down onto the deck of the Super Star Destroyer, only miles away. Fires burst over the entire stern, and the Imperial warship was listing badly to starboard.

'We've knocked out their forward shields,' Ackbar said into the comlink. 'Fire at the bridge.'

Green Leader's group swooped in low, from bottomside, up from the Death Star.

'Glad to help out, Home-one,' called Green Leader.

'Firing proton torpedoes,' Green Wing advised.

The bridge was hit, with kaleidoscopic results. A rapid chain reaction got set off, from power station to power station along the middle third of the huge destroyer, producing a dazzling rainbow of explosions that buckled the ship at right angles, and started it spinning like a pinwheel toward the Death Star.

That makes it indisputable that capital ship fire brought down the shields of the Executor before the A-Wings attacked. And finally... they weren't even able to attack the DS2 until the shields were brought down.

In summary, the DS1's shields that had seams in it large enough for the Milennium Falcon to bypass, is clearly the exception and not the rule. That doesn't even being to factor in all the other problems with your initial proposal, but it's more than enough to defeat it already.

[nightmare]

By the way, the same dude - Green Leader - that lead the attack on the Executor's sensor domes was the same guy who decided to take a long caf break on the Ex' bridge a little later; Arvel Crynyd.

[nightmare]

I apologize for multi-posting so much, but it's not like I can go back and edit in. I have only so much time every now and then, being a father and a husband with a full time job. I suppose I could open an account on asvs, but aside from Brian Young and say three more, I don't even like the people there. Yes, that means you.

I've looked a bit at the counter-points made there. I'd like to make a more consistent counter-argument, but I simply don't have the time. Instead, I'll just make one at this time. The counter-point to the shields being down on the TF battleship in TPM as Anakin entered the hangar was that the Death Star didn't need such as it had an atmospheric containment field. The counter to that counter-point is this:

"Clear bay 327. We're opening the magnetic field."

The Falcon was going in quite slowly, and we do know that the Death Star One had seams in its shields that allows a ship like the Falcon through. But the hangar had a field that had to be opened to let it through.

In addition, one should remind that fighters were completely ineffective against the TF Battleship. The question has been raised then, what purpose do fighters have? Many. Attacking capital ships is not one of them, however. The Imperial fighters swarmed over the rebel fleet by the hundreds and didn't as much as scratch the paint as they didn't have capship support.

[Baffalo]

That's almost the same question proposed when aircraft carriers were first introduced, and it's still a valid one, especially here. Against a capital ship, a strike craft is damn near useless on its own. However, in large enough numbers, they're a threat because they can maneuver fast enough that they're hard to kill and at the same time, their relative cost is low enough that the damage they do is often much higher than the cost it takes to replace any shot down. Also there's the matter of strike craft being able to enter atmospheres, enabling them to strike with surgical precision on the surface of planets being conquered and invaded. A battleship has enough guns to level a city, but if your goal is capture, not destruction, then you need something with a delicate touch.

As far as your argument that the bay on the TF battleship didn't have shields, I think the TF battleship had shields up, but only ray shielding. Think about it: you have a fight going on and you might need to call upon your reserves. Perhaps some of those fighters we saw walking around were being repaired or reloaded or refueled. You need to get those fighters back out, so you drop all but the ray shields around the fighter bays. After all, the target of the fighters attacking so far has been the main droid brain, not the fighter bays. Logically, they're not going to expend torpedoes to hit an area of the ship that isn't a critical target, so there's no point in expending shields there. Just put up a ray shield to prevent a quick strafing run. You can still get fighters in and out, and what pilot in their right mind is going to fly INTO a fighter bay full of enemies?

Someone ripping off the plot to ROTJ.

[Jm81]

In effect, what you're describing is a particle beam weapon. The question is, would such a weapon work against the likes of an ISD?

The point of using a/m weapons is that it reacts with any substance that is matter. So as long as SW ships use hulls made out of matter then yes.

[Jm81]

The demand was that you prove that that was the moment they went down. Not declare it so of you're own bat based on fuck-all.

I did, all the foaming at the mouth and foul language wont change that despite your deepest wishes it would. the events unfolded in chonological order and without any reason to believe other wise one must look at the canon evidence, which I am the only one providing any, and see it for what it is. Sorry.

Wrong. The officer in question a) was never seen before or after that brief shot, so your assertion that he was providing real-time updates is pure fabrication and b) wasn't staring intently at at anything. He was standing around, looked down at the readout in response to feeling the explosion, then reported the loss of the shield. The crewman who was staring at the screen throughout the shot didn't react in any way.

Wrong time stamp 1:53:59 of line below the first time we see him he is intently glued to the screen. Besides, if the shields hadn't dropped why would the Captain order forward batters to intensify so nothing gets through just moments before they died. If shields had dropped before the A-wings got there he would have already ordered it!

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp of fighters scoring hits on hull: 1:54:00
Time stamp of shields dropping (under contention): 1:54:07
Time stamp of captain ordering batteries to intensify since shields JUST dropped!: 1:54:09

...Based solely on that clip all we can determine is that the shields had failed at some time before the officer looked down at the screen.

No. What we can say for certain is that the shields dropped before he saw them on the screen and reported OR at that very moment. Now we have canon evidence that suggests they dropped right then because the captain suddenly ordered to protect the part of the hull that had just lost their shields as indicated by the other officer yelling, "too late!" to the captains plan just before they died. On the other hand we have zero, nada, zip, no evidence that it dropped before. Thus if you are truly intellectually honest you go the direction that has the most grounding in canon evidence not the least amount of evidence as you are doing because it suits your desired outcomes!

[almost certainly referring to fighters]

http://bbs.stardestroyer.net/viewtopic. ... &start=150

Ackbar ordered concentrated fire on the Ex.

So before you stated that the fleet was going to concentrate fire on the SSD and now you want to think only threat to the SSD were fighters? You of the now should have a talk with you of the past so you don't contradict yourself so much.

[Jm81]

As evidenced by...you saying so. This shows us the shields were down, nothing more.

Someone walks up to you, states, the light in your room has been turned off. What was its prior state? ON! Durr! Man, what do they teach these kids in school nowadays!

Let's see-'Concentrate all fire on that Super Star Destroyer', the novel quote saying they have to drop the shields for the fighters to be any use, and what do you know, after they concentrate all fire on Executor, the A-Wings manage to blow up the dome thingie. Could there perhaps be a connection?

A novel, not written by GL, which is the point of contention and seems to contradict the movie canon is what you want to cite to make your point against the argument against the same book. Circular logic much? What do they teach these kids in school nowadays?

Except, as Captain Seafort pointed out, that never actually happened, not that it would prove anything if it had.

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp: 1:53:59

He is staring intently the first time we see him. Just a friendly word of advice, don't use Captain Seafort's posts as a reference, he does no research before posting and it will end up with you having to back track.

You're stating your conclusion as e premise and are wrong to boot, see Captain Seaforts reply. The guy staring at the screen doesn't mean the shields dropped at the moment he anounced it. It just means...the guy was staring at the screen.

No, it means that as events unfolded, he saw it. And shields dropping is a pretty huge event that the Captain needs to know right away!

But not that they had to be up by the time of the A-Wing attack you retard.

Funny how you and Captain Seafort show how shaky the ground you are arguing from. In debates, insults show weakness in arguments. Besides, if the shields hadn't dropped why would the Captain order forward batters to intensify so nothing gets through just moments before they died. If shields had dropped before the A-wings got there he would have already ordered it!

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp of fighters scoring hits on hull: 1:54:00
Time stamp of shields dropping (under contention): 1:54:07
Time stamp of captain ordering batteries to intensify since shields JUST dropped!: 1:54:09

Only if the shields were still up. Which you have unsurprisingly failed to prove.

If the shields hadn't dropped why would the Captain order forward batters to intensify so nothing gets through just moments before they died. If shields had dropped before the A-wings got there he would have already ordered it!

Canon evidence:
http://www.putlocker.com/file/CAAD31EEBDBBA4FC#
Time stamp of fighters scoring hits on hull: 1:54:00
Time stamp of shields dropping (under contention): 1:54:07
Time stamp of captain ordering batteries to intensify since shields JUST dropped!: 1:54:09