Upper limit photon torpedoes...

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Post by Howedar »

Robert Walper wrote: A tank in a battlefield or scenario may at some point benefit from a nuclear tipped shell, but that doesn't mean it has one on hand(or can quickly get one), or that it even requires such firepower to deal with it's typically enemies(ie: troops, other tanks, even aircraft). My perspective is such high yield weapon must be planned for ahead of time, like the torpedo seem in STVOY "Omega", and that was significantly less than half the maximum yield of a photon torpedo, yet Harry Kim still thinks it's a large scale weapon.
Yeah, just one problem. Nuclear-tipped tank rounds don't exist.

Nice analogy, it fits perfectly.
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Post by Robert Walper »

SirNitram wrote:How, precisely, can you back a theory with so very many massive holes in it, Robert? I mean, how?
I don't believe there are "massive" holes in the theory so far. Please remember, I am still considering this theory(which means I might completely dismiss it as a possibility in the future), and my topic name is upper limit photon torpedoes. And my calculations haven't factored in such things as reaction inefficency, blast radius, etc.
You are suggesting the Federation can do dozens of times more damage than we ever see them do.
While I'm a big Star Wars fan, I'm not familar with the following: Is their any direct visual evidence of any Imperial ship deploying a 200 gigaton single TL? Many fans here seem to take such firepower for granted despite nothing in the movies saga(or novels that I'm directly aware of) that suggests such yields.

-The Federation Mars Defence Perimeter launches three missiles at an incoming Borg cube. If such missiles had yields greater than or equal to maximum photon torpedo yields suggested here(which for practical reasons are not typically available to Federation ships), then their deployment would make sense, and so would the Borg cube's decision to destroy them,
when it's shields handled multiple conventional torpedos easily enough.

-The Enterprise D can launch torpedoes that affect entire stars. If their torpedoes have yields suggested here(with time and preperation on their side), such effects have some more credibility besides "subspace treknobabble" being used.

-The Borg Multikinetic Neutronic Mine with a 5 million isoton, using these calcs, would have a yield of 214 thousand teratons. Combining that with a possible subspace shockwave, the concept of "affecting" an entire star system has some more credibility.

-Some examples of dialogue have suggested ships like the Defiant can reduce a planet to a "smoking cider" with a single volley of it's weaponry(Garak once made this comment during a incident in DS9, perhaps others could elaborate). While most starships would not typically have such high yield weaponry available, such high yields being achieveable suggests potentially higher yields for Federation weaponry than some other examples would have say are "maximum" capabilities.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Howedar wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: A tank in a battlefield or scenario may at some point benefit from a nuclear tipped shell, but that doesn't mean it has one on hand(or can quickly get one), or that it even requires such firepower to deal with it's typically enemies(ie: troops, other tanks, even aircraft). My perspective is such high yield weapon must be planned for ahead of time, like the torpedo seem in STVOY "Omega", and that was significantly less than half the maximum yield of a photon torpedo, yet Harry Kim still thinks it's a large scale weapon.
Yeah, just one problem. Nuclear-tipped tank rounds don't exist.

Nice analogy, it fits perfectly.
Hmmm...I was certain that artillery units could deploy nuclear projectiles if equipped beforehand(I recall seeing a documentary that showed a group of soldiers fire an artillery round from a barrel that had a nuclear yield)...I'll look into it. I might be wrong.
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Post by Howedar »

Artillery != tanks
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Post by Darth Wong »

TheDarkling wrote:
You are suggesting the Federation can do dozens of times more damage than we ever see them do.
:D I hope the irony of this isnt lost upon you.
What irony? Are you speaking of the fact that an 80km long turbolaser can pump out planet-destroying power, so a 10 metre long one should be able to pump out 100 GT at the least? Oops, that would be an example of a turbolaser doing far more than you think it can do. Better not mention that, eh?
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Post by Marcus »

I dont think (at least in this thread) he addressed the issue of TL firepower.

Im not sure its a good idea to directly scale TL firepower, up or down, based on size of projector. There may well be economies, or diseconomies of scale involved.
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Post by Darth Wong »

Marcus wrote:I dont think (at least in this thread) he addressed the issue of TL firepower.

Im not sure its a good idea to directly scale TL firepower, up or down, based on size of projector. There may well be economies, or diseconomies of scale involved.
Of course, but unless they change the figure by many orders of magnitude, they don't matter. There would have to be some pretty huge differences to bring HTL's below the GT range.
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Post by Durandal »

Robert Walper wrote: A tank in a battlefield or scenario may at some point benefit from a nuclear tipped shell, but that doesn't mean it has one on hand(or can quickly get one), or that it even requires such firepower to deal with it's typically enemies(ie: troops, other tanks, even aircraft). My perspective is such high yield weapon must be planned for ahead of time, like the torpedo seem in STVOY "Omega", and that was significantly less than half the maximum yield of a photon torpedo, yet Harry Kim still thinks it's a large scale weapon.
According to you, uber-torpedoes exist. Nuclear-tipped shells do not. Voyager could have spared one of its only three bigass weapons and simply used a photon torpedo to take out the array. It makes no sense for them to use an extremely limited supply, powerful weapon, when a less-powerful, more abundant weapon would do the job. You have absolutely no evidence that such a powerful photon torpedo exists, and we have all the evidence in the world to posit that torpedoes are of extremely limited capacity, often being inferior to modern chemical warheads in terms of explosive yield.
As I've repeatedly pointed out, such weaponry would require large quanitites of anti-matter on hand, preperation time since even a 83isoton torpedo takes time to arm(not to mention it's already considered at an unusually high yield). If I recall, Voyager was pressed for time with hostile Kazon approaching.
So, they beamed a tricobalt device over and set its timer instead of simply firing a torpedo and being done with it? You're still assuming that you're correct.
Additionally, given limits to Federation shielding, and the ranges at which such weapons would be deployed in typical combat scenarios(combat always takes place within a few kilometers), this would make them highly dangerous to use, and pointless, since much smaller yields will suffice against typical enemies.
Even if they exist, then, they wouldn't be used against the Imperials, as they are never used against the Federation's stock-enemies. You're assuming non-disprovability, and that's a logical fallacy. Just fucking give it up.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Durandal wrote: According to you, uber-torpedoes exist.
I've never stated that they do exist. I've been speculating they might exist. Reading through this thread, you would undoubtably come across me clearly saying, multiple times, that I'm only considering the possibility.
Nuclear-tipped shells do not.
My mistake. My recollection of military technology was inaccurate in regards to tanks. But nulcear yield weaponry can be delivered in small packages, and I'm certain that there are artillery shells that can have nuclear yields.
Voyager could have spared one of its only three bigass weapons and simply used a photon torpedo to take out the array.
Why must photon torpedoes always have their maximum yield set? Where's all the anti-matter coming from? STVOY "Omega" implied that a even an 83 isoton torpedo is a very high yield, and arming that torpedo took time and resources they could easily not have had during their confrontation with the Kazon.
It makes no sense for them to use an extremely limited supply, powerful weapon, when a less-powerful, more abundant weapon would do the job. You have absolutely no evidence that such a powerful photon torpedo exists, and we have all the evidence in the world to posit that torpedoes are of extremely limited capacity, often being inferior to modern chemical warheads in terms of explosive yield.
Which stretches the credibility of observed photon torpedoes being maximum yield. A civilization as advanced as the Federation should easily be able to deploy multi-megaton weaponry, yet virtually all observed evidence is against such yields. Therefore, the Federation could never deploy a multi-megaton torpedo. Does this seem reasonable when we can deploy muti-megaton weapons today?
As I've repeatedly pointed out, such weaponry would require large quanitites of anti-matter on hand, preperation time since even a 83isoton torpedo takes time to arm(not to mention it's already considered at an unusually high yield). If I recall, Voyager was pressed for time with hostile Kazon approaching.
So, they beamed a tricobalt device over and set its timer instead of simply firing a torpedo and being done with it?
[/quote]

A typical yield photon torpedo could take much longer to arm(assuming they have that much anti-matter and time on hand) and fire than simply beaming over a weapon with a large yield that is already prearmed with a high yield warhead.
You're still assuming that you're correct.
I have stated over, and over again that this is a theory that I am still considering, which means that I reserve the right to dismiss it in the future. How exactly, does this translate to me assuming I'm correct, when I've already admitted the theory may very well be unworkable?
Even if they exist, then, they wouldn't be used against the Imperials, as they are never used against the Federation's stock-enemies.
I've speculated that the Mar Defense Perimeter may have deployed such high yield weapon(although not in typically torpedo casings), and that's why the cube destroyed them, because they could do some heavy damage. I've also speculated such high yield weaponry helps explain how torpedoes can affect stars.

If you read my first post, then you should already be aware that I said even if such figures were to be excepted, they wouldn't change an Imperial/Federation conflict, precisely because such weaponry is so rare, and Imperial speed would prevent them from deploying them in any significant manner.
You're assuming non-disprovability, and that's a logical fallacy. Just fucking give it up.
You obviously consider the theory disproven and unworkable. Then allow me the same chance to consider the theory disproven and unworkable, without you attempting to force your conclusion on me.
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Post by Howedar »

Robert Walper wrote: My mistake. My recollection of military technology was inaccurate in regards to tanks. But nulcear yield weaponry can be delivered in small packages, and I'm certain that there are artillery shells that can have nuclear yields.
There are. And in an actual war, they would be distributed at least to every division. However, we haven't seen these mythical giant photorps even as the Federation fought for its very survival.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Howedar wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: My mistake. My recollection of military technology was inaccurate in regards to tanks. But nulcear yield weaponry can be delivered in small packages, and I'm certain that there are artillery shells that can have nuclear yields.
There are. And in an actual war, they would be distributed at least to every division. However, we haven't seen these mythical giant photorps even as the Federation fought for its very survival.
It's possible such weaponry was directed at the Borg cube in "Best of Both Worlds", however, those were destroyed before they could impact and deliver their payload. Apparently here, it's generally accepted those were pitiful warheads.
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Howedar wrote:
Robert Walper wrote: My mistake. My recollection of military technology was inaccurate in regards to tanks. But nulcear yield weaponry can be delivered in small packages, and I'm certain that there are artillery shells that can have nuclear yields.
There are. And in an actual war, they would be distributed at least to every division. However, we haven't seen these mythical giant photorps even as the Federation fought for its very survival.
Yes, there was a Artillery Piece with a nuclear warhead! It was called Atomic Annie. It is no longer in sercive ause it was impractical. It was larger than the rail guns from WWII, the only diffrence was that it moved on a giant truck at a speed of 15 mph tops. It streached the term 'Mobile" to the max. It was mobile enough to be called mobile but it took 1 hour to set up. Even oday they can't build a nuke that fits into a standard artillery piece.

No Tanker in his right mind would use a nuke round anyway! You would be inside the weapon's blast radius if you ever fired it. This something that would be very bad for the tank.
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Isolder74 wrote: Even oday they can't build a nuke that fits into a standard artillery piece
Yes they can. Russian 152mm guns and above have nuclear warheads.
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Post by Vympel »

To clarify- a 152mm nuclear round was developed for this very common Russian caliber. I don't know if it ever entered service.
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Vympel wrote:To clarify- a 152mm nuclear round was developed for this very common Russian caliber. I don't know if it ever entered service.
It didn't, it wasn't safe
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Post by Vympel »

What nuclear weapon is :) :twisted:
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Vympel wrote:What nuclear weapon is :) :twisted:
You have never seen the specs of a Russian Nuke have you.
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Post by Vympel »

How so. Nuclear weapons aren't safe. They explode big.
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Vympel wrote:How so. Nuclear weapons aren't safe. They explode big.
There is a diffence between satefy and explosion size. basically when the Russia weapon was dummy test fired its detonation charges went off in the barrel. which means for all of you lay people the Nuke would have exploded in the artillery piece. US Weapons are much safer than their Russian counterparts since the Russians built their weapons for max firepower with minimal safety measures required.

Their Nuclear reactors aren't much better. The Soviets saw people as expendible in favor of the bottom line. Build a Nuke that size has maqny problems.
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Isolder74 wrote:
Vympel wrote:How so. Nuclear weapons aren't safe. They explode big.
There is a diffence between satefy and explosion size. basically when the Russia weapon was dummy test fired its detonation charges went off in the barrel. which means for all of you lay people the Nuke would have exploded in the artillery piece. US Weapons are much safer than their Russian counterparts since the Russians built their weapons for max firepower with minimal safety measures required.

Their Nuclear reactors aren't much better. The Soviets saw people as expendible in favor of the bottom line. Build a Nuke that size has maqny problems.
Doesn't the thing not being accepted into service kinda negate the Soviets don't care about safety angle?

Russian nuclear reactors have never been as good as Western ones though.
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Post by Kazuaki Shimazaki »

They were never quite as safe, but the new VVER-400 models and the plants in 3rd generation subs were already huge improvements on the -220 (or was it 230) and first generation stuff that blew in Chernobyl and other submarine accidents.
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Vympel wrote:
Isolder74 wrote:
Vympel wrote:How so. Nuclear weapons aren't safe. They explode big.
There is a diffence between satefy and explosion size. basically when the Russia weapon was dummy test fired its detonation charges went off in the barrel. which means for all of you lay people the Nuke would have exploded in the artillery piece. US Weapons are much safer than their Russian counterparts since the Russians built their weapons for max firepower with minimal safety measures required.

Their Nuclear reactors aren't much better. The Soviets saw people as expendible in favor of the bottom line. Build a Nuke that size has maqny problems.
Doesn't the thing not being accepted into service kinda negate the Soviets don't care about safety angle?

Russian nuclear reactors have never been as good as Western ones though.
A weapon that blows up the troops using it is obviously so unsafe that the Soviets wouldn't even use it, So what is the problem with that? If it can't do damage to the enemy what good is it?
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Post by Master of Ossus »

There is a small degree of support for Robert's claim that the torpedoes used by the Enterprise are enormously powerful. In "Q Who," the Enterprise is pursued by a Borg cube, but is incapable of firing torpedoes at it at one point because the ship would be destroyed by the blast, although the cube was some distance away. In "Nth Degree," the same was true, although the alien probe that was being targetted was much closer to the Enterprise. However, both of these examples rely on the exclusive availability of high-yield weapons, as opposed to a mixed yield of high-, medium-, and low-yield torpedoes.
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Post by Robert Walper »

Master of Ossus wrote:There is a small degree of support for Robert's claim that the torpedoes used by the Enterprise are enormously powerful.
In "Q Who," the Enterprise is pursued by a Borg cube, but is incapable of firing torpedoes at it at one point because the ship would be destroyed by the blast, although the cube was some distance away. In "Nth Degree," the same was true, although the alien probe that was being targetted was much closer to the Enterprise.
Thanks for the examples there, MOO. Those are the episode names I was looking for to try and give some more credibility to the theory. Note, this doesn't prove that the Federation can deploy multi-teraton weapons(assuming reaction efficency and blast radius still add up to teraton yields), but it does support the idea Federation ships can deploy weaponry with yields that can damage their ships, despite other incidents where they survive direct hits from supposededly identical weaponry.
However, both of these examples rely on the exclusive availability of high-yield weapons, as opposed to a mixed yield of high-, medium-, and low-yield torpedoes.
The theory I'm proposing is trying to suggest that a Federation ship can deploy weapons with variable yields, some high enough to damage a ship firing them. And extremely high yields can be achieved, but only if:
1) sufficent material(ie: anti-matter) is on hand
2) sufficent time(to fill a torpedo with large amounts of AM)
3) sufficent reason(typical enemies can be disabled with regular and much less expensive torpedoes)
4) combat range allows deployment of such weaponry without destroying or crippling the vessel firing such yields

Many here keep pointing out number 3(like against the Borg), but never seem to mention or even try to account for 1, 2 and 4. And I've suggested the calculation as an upper limit, with reaction efficency(which could be very low) and blast radius directed at targets potentially making such yields much smaller.
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Post by seanrobertson »

Master of Ossus wrote:There is a small degree of support for Robert's claim that the torpedoes used by the Enterprise are enormously powerful. In "Q Who," the Enterprise is pursued by a Borg cube, but is incapable of firing torpedoes at it at one point because the ship would be destroyed by the blast, although the cube was some distance away. In "Nth Degree," the same was true, although the alien probe that was being targetted was much closer to the Enterprise. However, both of these examples rely on the exclusive availability of high-yield weapons, as opposed to a mixed yield of high-, medium-, and low-yield torpedoes.
Yeah.

It's entirely possible, too, that the crew is simply really
overcautious when it comes to taking damage to the ship.
(That doesn't really fly when we see shields raised against
Roga Danar's ship, or against some foes like Pakleds,
but generally speaking there is a great deal of fear where
anything antimatter is concerned; e.g., "Friendship One.")

I hesitate to dismiss both instances as sheer incompetence...
if it was only "Q Who?" or "The Nth Degree," that'd be one thing.
Two instances of such a concern--with others in the wings,
I'm pretty sure--make it hard to blow off.

Still, if, say, a 200 kiloton explosion is a threat to the
shields (and therefore, much more to the ship's hull itself),
proximity detonations at 2 kilometers out would require a warhead
almost 500 times more powerful, or about 100 megatons, to
pack the same wallop (assuming similar frontal area, which
is too simplistic but convenient).

With M/AM warheads, that's quite a difference...1 gram
of matter reacting with one gram of AM yields 21.5 kilotons.

To jump from warheads of 10g (20 total) to 4,650g seems
excessive. When we hear isotons used, it's a big deal
to go from around 20 ("Living Witness") to 83 ("The Omega
Directive"), and the highest unit we ever hear for
a photorp, perhaps not even a single photorp, is the infamous
200 isotons from "Scorpion II."

It must be the case that proximity detonations are only
a real threat when the shields are heavily depleted or almost
gone (just as with our two examples). In that case, I think we
could say that a warhead in the single-digit kilotons could do
severe hull damage (in line with that old TOS episode w/ the
jet fighter?). That'd closely match the kinds of phaser gougings
we see in TWOK.

Severe hull damage doesn't readily translate to
"total destruction" as stated in the dialogue, so we could
say maybe a 50 kiloton bomb or thereabouts might do
catastrophic damage? That is, after all, more than enough
energy to vaporize a huge volume of a ship's hull, trigger a
core breach, etc. If it'll level a large city, I think it should
be pretty nasty to a starship anyway!

That would bring these high-yield weapons down to
no more than 25 megatons, almost on the dot. I simply
don't see how one could argue that an unshielded starship
could survive much more than the equivalent of a 50 kiloton
nuke at PBR.

I don't have a problem with a pretty big variance in yields,
though I still don't like a jump from 200 kilotons to 25 megatons.
Even if the standard torpedo was 500 kilotons, that's a fifty-fold
increase--the likes of which would indicate standard torpedoes
at, say, 20 isotons going all the way up to 1,000!

Lots of fudge room there. To suggest the standard yield
torpedo is significantly more powerful than 500 kT makes
a lot of visuals very hard to explain, but to find the high
yield stuff significantly lower than at least a few megatons
means the whole starship would blow up if exposed to
a few kilotons, unshielded (which doesn't mesh very well
with "Images in the Sand," though it could still be rationalized).
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